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Digital Cable vs DirecTV Breakdown and Decision
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Posted by: Lehigh

Ok, I'm sure some of you have already been through this so wanted to see what your opinions are on my comparison of Digital Cable and DirecTV in my area. (I need a two room setup - Hitachi 57TWX20B in living room and crappy old TV in bedroom) I've been going back and forth and here's where I'm at right now...

(After typing this I noticed I used "HD" alot, some are for "Hard Drive" and some are for "High Definition", it should be apparent which are which.)

Digital Cable w/ HD
My local cable company (and the only one that services where I live - 18031) is Service Electric and they carry HDTV on CBS, NBC, ABC, Fox, PBS, SHowtime, & HBO. They are also getting new HDTV channels in the Summer, one of which I'm told "should" be ESPN HD.

Digital Cable w/ HD
Monthly Cost = $40.00
HD Box per month = $11.95
Total Monthly = $51.95
Equipment Cost = $0.00

Digital Cable w/ 1 Tivo w/ HD
Monthly Cable Cost = $40.00
HD Box per month = $11.95
Monthly Tivo Cost = $12.95
Total Monthly = $64.90
Equipment Cost = $350.00 (40 hour Tivo w/ self upgraded HD)

DirectTV w/o HD
The main benefit of DirecTV to me is the sorts packages not available anywhere else. I want NFL Sunday Ticket in the worst possible way, also really interested in the March Madness package. I called a couple of different salespeople at DirecTV and all told me that I cannot get Sunday Ticket without subscribing to DirecTV. I was hoping I could just install a dish and just pay for and receive ST without a subscription (which would solve all my problems), but no such luck. Also wthout HD, I'm not using my new TV to its full capability.

DirectTV w/ 1 Tivo w/o HD
Monthly DirecTV Cost = $38.00
Additional DirecTV receiver per month = $4.99
Monthly Tivo Cost w/ DirecTV = $4.95
Total Monthly = $47.94
Equipment Cost = $400.00 (HDVR2 w/ HD upgrade, standard receiver, Dish & Install)

DirectTV w/ HD
Again. the main benefit of DirecTV to me is the sorts packages not available anywhere else. I want NFL Sunday Ticket in the worst possible way, also really interested in the March Madness package. In this package, I would purchase a HD Receiver and antenna and hope to get as many OTA HD feeds as possible. In my area I think I can only receive CBS and ABC right now. (I haven't tested this yet though and need to as it may be a key factor)

DirectTV w/ 1 Tivo w/ HD
Monthly DirecTV Cost = $38.00
Additional DirecTV receiver per month = $4.99
Monthly Tivo Cost w/ DirecTV = $4.95
Total Monthly = $47.94
Equipment Cost = $1060.00 (HDVR2 w/ HD upgrade, HD Receiver, standard receiver, MulitDish & Install)

Right now, my plan is to get the HD cable for a while and see how much I like it. While I have it, I may buy a DirecTV / OTA STB and antenna and experiment with how well I recieve HD channels OTA. That will give me an idea of what I can get if I switch to DirecTV.

The monthly fees for each are not too far off, its the equipment costs and channel / package availability that are the real difference.

I really want NFL Sunday Ticket as I mentioned above but that won't be a factor for several months until Football starts back up. If by then I decide that I NEED Sunday Ticket more that the additional HD channels through cable, I'll make the switch.

The fact that its most likely that I'll make that switch will probably keep me from buying a Cable Tivo since I will need a HDVR2 with DirecTV. Will a HDVR2 work at all with cable? I guess I can check that ot myself.

Well thats my rant on the decision I've been trying to make, what do you think? :)

Posted by: Bardman

As someone who has gone from Digital Cable (2 room setup) to 2 HDVR2s, I can say that there isn't a comparison...... DTV rocks and Digital Cable Sux!!

As I was calling to unsubcribe, the Time Warner rep on the phone informed me of their "new" Tivo box that had 2 tuners and a hard drive... I've since read about that Scientific Atlanta Box and it is inferior to all Satellite-based PVRs.

However, I do know that My WAF has improved exponentially since we became DTV converts... We had Dish Network before we moved (501 & 4900) and Since Dish Didn't carry my locals here, I decided to try Digital Cable until the HDVR2 came out... great timing!! My 3 month "half price" special with TWC ran out just as the HDVR2 was released. For this reason, I will recommend that you DO try the Digital Cable with HighDef as that will give you a true comparison as well as "stalling" until the newly announced HighDef DTivo is released "later this year"

Posted by: vertigo235

My parents have HighDef, and although it is amazing! I would have to choose DTiVo (DirecTV option), over my local digital cable any day.

HighDef DirecTiVo might be the golden ticket when it comes out.

Posted by: cjett

DirecTivo is great and is significantly better than a standalone TiVo, due to two tuners. VOD from your cable company is not even in the same league as TiVo. BUT, DirecTV is going to fall over on the weight of HD programming. DirecTV does not have the bandwidth, with their current compression schemes, to compete with cable on the number of HD stations they can/will carry. So, in the foreseeable future, from an HD perspective cable looks like the clear winner.

Posted by: Directv&TivoGuy

Lehigh - why don't you have a tivo yet???? Whats wrong?

Posted by: FzyLgic

cjett -

Cable may look like a clear winner to you, but to me it can't compete. Heck they can't even get analog or current 'digital' quality high enough to compete with DTV. As for bandwidth, most cable providers don't have enough to carry any range of HD programming either - especially with the push to sign up broadband users. I'm waiting to see what shakes out.

Posted by: Lehigh

quote:
Originally posted by Directv&TivoGuy
Lehigh - why don't you have a tivo yet???? Whats wrong?

Been wanting to get one but I just move into a new house and I'm working through alot of decisions. I finally decided on a TV (Hitachi 57TWX20B) and it should be coming this week or next. I haven't gotten DirecTV yet because I wasn't sure of the setup I wanted or if I wanted to wait for prices to drop / new technology.

At this point, I think I'm going to try digital cable for a while while I get a HD STB to test OTA signals. I'll probably take the plunge and buy a package before Football starts so I can get Sunday Ticket. Maybe by then prices will drop even further or there will be new STB's out. I am kind of thinking of just going for it right now in order to get the March Madness package, but I may not be able to get many HD channels OTA.

Posted by: jcharm

quote:
Originally posted by cjett
BUT, DirecTV is going to fall over on the weight of HD programming. DirecTV does not have the bandwidth, with their current compression schemes, to compete with cable on the number of HD stations they can/will carry. So, in the foreseeable future, from an HD perspective cable looks like the clear winner.

So even though HD is on a separate bird, there still isn't enough bandwidth?

Posted by: cjett

FzyLgic - Obviously, it depends on your local cable company, and their offerings. Digital cable, on the whole, is a wider pipe to pump digital services than is DBS - at least in their current compression schemes. DishNetwork is a little better off with their 8VSB module (basically, they use a different compression scheme for HD than they use for their SD material). My local cable is Comcast - We now have 9 offerings and they have committed to ESPNHD and HDNet's upcoming multi-channel offerings. Currently, I have both Comcast and DirecTV. I get most of my HD material from Comcast, and SD from DirecTV - I plan to hold out with both until there is a clear winner - but for HD, cable (at least Comcast) is winning hands down.

Jcharm - HD has not yet been moved to a separate bird. Showtime is on the 110 sat., HBOHD is on the 101 sat, HDNet and HD PPV are both on the 119 sat. There have been rumors for quite awhile that all of the HD programming will move to the 110 sat, which is probably what your reffering to. However, this has not yet happened, and even so, DirecTV leases space on the 110 sat and only has a handful of slots on this bird. At best they could offer 3 more HD channels there - these would not be additional channels, but rather a movement of some sort, as this bird is already filled with Asian programming, so they'd have to go somewhere, and the other birds are nearly filled as well.

As HD content rolls out in force, DBS is going to have a difficult time keeping up. That is, unless something drastic changes to the compression schemes, which will (most likely) require new receivers. The lack of HD locals is going to REALLY hurt them - and the precedent has already been set regarding national feeds of the major networks. I don't see a win here for them. No way DirecTV will replace every receiver out there to meet a new compression scheme. DirecTV is trying to unload themselves to anyine that will have them - and I doubt very seriously that we will see an investment in a new HD dedicated sat anytime soon.
cjett

Posted by: jcharm

Well that kind of sucks. With the HDTivo box thats coming I though we'd have the definitive hardware solution. Maybe cable will win this war after all. How much bandwidth can you squeeze out of coaxial? Most companies are already doing video and interent and some are even doing voice as well, how much room is left for HD?

Posted by: DTV TiVo Dealer

DIRECTV is very seriously looking into MPEG4 compression to help them deliver more HD programming. Currently DTV uses MPEG2 compression for SD and HD encoding. MPEG4 compresses more efficiently and delivers more channels over the same bandwidth. One HD channel using the current MPEG2 scheme takes the bandwidth of 10 SD channels.

DTV is very likely to provide HD-ESPN and HD Discovery by April, 2003. DTV has already announced up to 2 HD NFL games per week in 2003 and many additional free HD broadcasts for sports and special events on the new HD "Pay per View" channel 198. DTV is also working with their current exclusive HDNET channel 199 partner to include Mark Cubin's additional future HD channels.

DIRECTV and I understand that existing HD IRD's will not decode MPEG4 encryption. This is nothing for anyone to worry about now. DTV has not decided to switch to MPEG4 encryption and if they do they will consider the limited amount of existing loyal HD customers.

Also, DTV is scheduled to launch a second 119 degree satellite. The new satellite will employ "spot beam technology. The new spot beam satellite will mostly be used for local channels in rural communities. DTV also plans on load balancing the HD programming among the 101, 110 and 2 119 degree satellites. DTV subscribers who want local channels in the new markets and all HD customers will want the triple LNB multi-satellite antenna dish system.

For our customers we set up local OTA HD antennas to receive local HD broadcasts. With all of the owned and operated and affiliate local broadcasters offering digital broadcasts customers are best served with local antennas to add more HD content. All DTV HD receivers also decode local ATSC signals and the latest HD receivers have very sensitive and selective receivers that do a great job receiving local OTA broadcasts in fringe areas.

In spite of a pending sale or divestiture DIRECTV and HNS are continually developing new technological advances. GM and Hughes understands that advancing the technology to develop cost savings and competitive advantages make the company more valuable to potential suitors.

Posted by: brahamt

quote:
Originally posted by FzyLgic
cjett -

Cable may look like a clear winner to you, but to me it can't compete. Heck they can't even get analog or current 'digital' quality high enough to compete with DTV. As for bandwidth, most cable providers don't have enough to carry any range of HD programming either - especially with the push to sign up broadband users. I'm waiting to see what shakes out.

I just bought an HDTV a couple of days ago and have been a satellite subscriber for almost 8 years. When I went into one of my local stores, which coincidentally is owned by the cable company, they told me that Cablevision would be announcing HDTV over cable in a few weeks.

For the 1st time in years, I am seriously considering cable. Obviously it depends on what they introduce, but I believe that many high-end customers will consider whatever option gives them the best HD options.

Cable is not out of the picture yet, even for those of us who hate them.

Posted by: wilson

quote:
Originally posted by DTV TiVo Dealer
DIRECTV is very seriously looking into MPEG4 compression to help them deliver more HD programming.

My guess is that they will wait for the DVD Forum decision on what compression scheme to use with HD-DVD. That way they can share some core designs. Decision's coming in March.

Another reason to use DVI instead of Firewire to connect displays.

Posted by: nabsltd

quote:
Originally posted by DTV TiVo Dealer
DIRECTV and I understand that existing HD IRD's will not decode MPEG4 encryption. This is nothing for anyone to worry about now. DTV has not decided to switch to MPEG4 encryption and if they do they will consider the limited amount of existing loyal HD customers.

Picking a nit...MPEG-4 is an "encoding", not an "encryption".

I seriously doubt they will ever go to MPEG-4, though, as that "limited amount of existing loyal HD customers" is most of the people with HD receiving capability. The RCA DTC-100 is by far the largest selling HD STB (of any kind), and the total of all the combo DirecTV/ATSC receivers outstrips all other HD receivers (ATSC only or DishNetwork) by a large margin. There are many other reasons, like the fact that MPEG-4 does best at low framerate, low resolution images, while on HD, it doesn't get much more compression then MPEG-2, for the same picture quality.

But, if they do, hey, that's a new TV for me, since my DirecTV HD receiver is inside my RCA F38310 TV.

Posted by: bidger

I find it difficult to believe that your equipment cost for cable would be $0.00. Are you talking initial cost vs. monthly rental? Do you have it in writing that your cable co. won't charge you for equipment? Hell, TW used to charge me 25 cents a month for the remote to the STB.

Posted by: cjett

quote:
Originally posted by DTV TiVo Dealer
DIRECTV is very seriously looking into MPEG4 compression to help them deliver more HD programming. Currently DTV uses MPEG2 compression for SD and HD encoding. MPEG4 compresses more efficiently and delivers more channels over the same bandwidth. One HD channel using the current MPEG2 scheme takes the bandwidth of 10 SD channels.

DIRECTV and I understand that existing HD IRD's will not decode MPEG4 encryption. This is nothing for anyone to worry about now. DTV has not decided to switch to MPEG4 encryption and if they do they will consider the limited amount of existing loyal HD customers.

DirecTV is planning a a HD DirecTiVo to do one thing - drive customers to HD using a competitive and differential platform. Guess what compression scheme this new DirecTiVo is going to use?.... you guessed it - the same one they use today. Leads to a very logical question... why would they spend a significant amount of development money on a new receiver - one far more expensive to manufacturer and subsidize than a normal receiver, if they truly are planning on making this unit obsolete in the near future. You guessed it again... they wouldn't. If this unit is even half as successful as the SD DirecTiVo, there is no way DirecTV could afford to make the "early" adopters whole.

quote:
For our customers we set up local OTA HD antennas to receive local HD broadcasts. With all of the owned and operated and affiliate local broadcasters offering digital broadcasts customers are best served with local antennas to add more HD content. All DTV HD receivers also decode local ATSC signals and the latest HD receivers have very sensitive and selective receivers that do a great job receiving local OTA broadcasts in fringe areas.

What's the biggest complaint DirecTV gets from it's new/potential customers today? Answer: Putting a dish on the roof vs. an outlet on the wall for cable. So, the offer to add an additional, far from attractive "appliance", is just not that compelling to Joe - six-pack, Jane - I just want the TV to work when I turn it on. Us techies, we love this stuff - but we are a VERY small percentage of the total TV viewing public.

quote:
In spite of a pending sale or divestiture DIRECTV and HNS are continually developing new technological advances. GM and Hughes understands that advancing the technology to develop cost savings and competitive advantages make the company more valuable to potential suitors.

I do deals on large companies - nothing like this, obviously - more like in the $20M-$50M range. And nothing, absolutely nothing, is more compelling than a favorable balance sheet, and money in the bank. Certainly, a suitor will consider innovation and technology, but not at the expense of a solid financial picture - which they do not have. DirecTV is going to be focusing on cost cutting first, and innovation second.

Also, DirecTV is launching their next spot beam sat for two key reasons- neither of which are really innovative. 1.) As a long term replacement of their aging 119 sat. These sats have a limited life-span, and 119 is already past it's "expected" life. Certainly, they'll keep both up as long as possible, but at some point the original 119 will be pushed from it's current orbital slot. and 2.) Must-carry law for locals. DirecTV currently carries locals to roughly 60% of all US households. However, the next 10 DMA's carry an additional 10-15% of US households. DirecTV wants those customers to compete with Dish. Because they want to be there, they have to carry EVERY station in the market. Thus, the reason spot-beam is being launched.

Posted by: Lehigh

quote:
Originally posted by bidger
I find it difficult to believe that your equipment cost for cable would be $0.00. Are you talking initial cost vs. monthly rental? Do you have it in writing that your cable co. won't charge you for equipment? Hell, TW used to charge me 25 cents a month for the remote to the STB.

Equipment Cost = $0.00
HD Box per month = $11.95

I don't have to buy anything up front but I have to pay $11.95 per month for the box.

Posted by: DTV TiVo Dealer

I posted to be sure no one would just believe that cable carries have or will have more HD content than DTV offers. I am sorry to read so much distrust in my post. I stated what I learned from an technology meeting with DIRECTV. As I stated DTV has not decided to switch to MPEG4, they are looking at MPEG4 to have the ability to offer more HD channels. It is true that currently it is more expensive to build MPEG4 decoders, however as the technology matures costs will drop.

No current SD DTV receivers or combo units will be obsolete. The MPEG4 compression would only be used for HD broadcasts. All SD DTV and SD DTV-TiVo recorders will not be effected whatsoever.

Almost no DTV development money is being spent on looking into MPEG4. MPEG4 encoders, decoders and standards have already been established.

We put OTA antennas in almost every HD job. I like the ChannelMaster #3010, which is designed to receive the UHF band and we have a specially designed clamp that mounts onto the existing mast and adds another mast for the small ChannelMaster #3010. The 3010 sits above the multi-satellite dish. We add the optional UHF internal amplifier and diplex the OTA cable on the DTV coax.

DTV has done a good job of cost cutting in the past year. Very little money is going into the MPEG4 consideration. The new 119 degree spot beam satellite has a very large capacity and will enable DTV to deliver many more local channels across America as well as provide the opportunity to load balance HD channels among the 101, 110 and 119 degree satellites.

Regarding the statement that MPEG4 is an "encoding", not an "encryption", I do agree. MPEG onto itself is encoded. However, I think of MPEG as an encoded and encrypted signal as it is also encrypted. I will use the term more properly in the future.

Anyone interest in learning more about MPEG4 can go to the official site http://www.m4if.org .

Posted by: bidger

Thanks for clearing the equipment cost up for me Lehigh. HD isn't a concern for me right now because nothing is offered for me locally. I'm by no means an expert on that so I'll leave that to those who know.

For myself, I like the fact that my equipment costs w/ DirecTV are taken care of upfront and that programming is all I'm paying for in my monthly bill. That may not be true for you, especially if you're just now buying your HD equipment & don't want to incur any more additional upfront costs. Whatever you decide, best of luck!

Posted by: Eben

quote:
Originally posted by Lehigh
I want NFL Sunday Ticket in the worst possible way, also really interested in the March Madness package. I called a couple of different salespeople at DirecTV and all told me that I cannot get Sunday Ticket without subscribing to DirecTV. I was hoping I could just install a dish and just pay for and receive ST without a subscription (which would solve all my problems), but no such luck.

I'm pretty sure (I know you definitely could in the past) you can subscribe to just NFL ST. Thus you could get a single dish system connected to your main TV and sub to just NFL ST. Note that you would not be eligible for any of the subsidized/free install offers as you would not be subbing to the minimum required programming. However, a basic receiver and single LNB dish aren't that expensive anymore (<$200 for both). If you self-install, the only other significant cost would be the annual NFL ST subscription.

Posted by: cjett

quote:
Originally posted by DTV TiVo Dealer
No current DTV receivers or combo units will be obsolete. The MPEG4 compression would only be used for HD broadcasts. All DTV and DTV-TiVo recorders will not be effected whatsoever.

This is completely untrue. My current HD receiver will not work with MPEG4 encoded signals. So, tell me again how my receiver won't be made obsolete? I'll repeat. If DirecTV decides to change to MPEG4 for HD, then the current HD receivers on the market, and the recently annouced HDDirecTiVO will NOT be compatible. Thus, DirecTV will say sorry early adopter, buy a new unit, or will be forced to offer a highly discounted option to the current subscribers. Either way it costs them money.

Lehigh was trying to make a point in time decision, based upon the availability of HD. That decision, at least for now and for the foreseeable future, is far better served by going with cable. Unless you want to spend money today on existing DirecTV HD technology, that may be obsolete in the future, and until then will offer far less HD programming than cable.

OR... do what I do. Subscribe to both. DirecTV to leverage the dual tuner aspects of the TiVo, and the Cable for HD.
cjett

Posted by: nabsltd

quote:
Originally posted by cjett
Thus, DirecTV will say sorry early adopter, buy a new unit, or will be forced to offer a highly discounted option to the current subscribers. Either way it costs them money.

Exactly right.

And, as I said about the RCA F38310 TV with the built-in DirecTV HD receiver...that would be very expensive to replace, and there were a lot of these sets sold.

I really don't care if DirecTV goes to a completely different signal for any or all of their programming...as long as they offer me either free (or very close to it...maybe S&H only) replacements for all my existing receivers that cease to be able to get all the programming they currently can.

Posted by: DTV TiVo Dealer

quote:
Originally posted by DTV TiVo Dealer
No current DTV receivers or combo units will be obsolete. The MPEG4 compression would only be used for HD broadcasts. All DTV and DTV-TiVo recorders will not be effected whatsoever.

You took my statement out of context by leaving out "The MPEG4 compression would only be used for HD broadcasts." I edited my post to include SD in front of DTV to make it clear that I am referring to SD DTV receivers and SD DTV-TiVo combo units only.

Also, if DTV goes to MPEG4 for HD broadcasts I am sure they will plan for the upcoming HD DTV-TiVo combo to be compatible.

I don't want you or anyone to be angry with me. My only intent here is to provide information that has been told to me as an advanced technology Beta tester and dealer. I want forum members to have a heads up of some of the future plans DTV has to provide more HD programming. As I stated DTV is looking into MPEG4 compression as well as the additional capacity of the new Spot Beam 119 degree satellite and load balancing the 101, 110 & 119 degree satellites. DTV is very concerned and respectfully to the elite HD and TiVo combo customers.

BTW less than 200,000 DTV customers are HD subscribers. If DTV changes the HD encoding they will surely provide assistance to upgrade the receivers.

Posted by: cjett

quote:
Originally posted by DTV TiVo Dealer
Also, if DTV goes to MPEG4 for HD broadcasts I am sure they will plan for the upcoming HD DTV-TiVo combo to be compatible.

Nope. I've seen the specs, it is MPEG2 only.

quote:
BTW less than 200,000 DTV customers are HD subscribers. If DTV changes the HD encoding they will surely provide assistance to upgrade the receivers. [/B]

Back to my point previously, this will cost them a significant amount of money. Especially when you consider that the average cost of a HD DirecTV receiver is well over $500. Let's look at the numbers.... Using your 200,000 subscriber number. Let's add 100,000 for the HD DirecTiVo launch (which we know is going to be MPEG2) so that's 300,000 folks to make whole. Let's say they can source the HD receivers cheaper - say $300 That's 300,000 X $300. That's $90M - I seriously doubt they'll make any of us whole. Or, they'll just make a decision not to move to MPEG4 - more likely.

All this is simple mathmatics and business.
cjett

Posted by: DTV TiVo Dealer

You are correct that the current preliminary spec's call for the HD DTV-TiVo unit to be MPEG2, however, if DTV elects to switch HD broadcasts to MPEG4 the spec's for the HD DTV-TiVo will change to MPEG4 as well. Lets go back to the less than 200,000 HD subscriber number.

DTV just closed it's DSL business, which they paid hundreds of millions of dollars to acquire. I know these numbers sound high to us, but for DTV they are affordable. DTV has more than 11 million subscribers paying approximately $70.00 per month, which includes "Pay per View", thats 70 million dollars of revenue per month. Switching to MPEG4 could easily double the amount of HD channels and provide many years of large continuing, and growing revenue. DTV knows they must be competitive and supply more HD channels and they will succeed.

Posted by: cherokee180c

No decision see my other post about cable issues here:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-v...threadid=102482