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Children of Dune
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Posted by: doom1701

OK, regular rules apply--even though it's a miniseries based on books that have been around for quite some time, please spoiler tag anything relating to plot.

I only caught the first 45 minutes last night (had to be up at 5am again this morning, and really shouldn't have stayed up as late as I did). So far I'm impressed. The sets and acting feel much better than in Dune. Susan Sarandon actually seems interested to be there--as opposed to William Hurt's "God, I can't wait till I can get a real job" acting in Dune.

But is anyone else a little confused by the incredibly changed cast? Paul, Chani, Irulan, and Gurney (with a listing in the cast for Baron Harkonenn) seem to be the only original actors. From what I saw in Women of Dune, Saskia Reeves is a LOT more attractive than Alice Krige.

Haven't gotten far enough along to comment on plot, so I'll leave that to all the spoiler junkies...

Posted by: jchan

I agree...seems to be little better acting, better sets (though fewer). I too was confused with the cast change. I also felt that the overall flow was rather chopped...it REALLY seemed to jump around. This may be due to this just being the background of what happens to the original characters before the son/daughter come to power. It also appears that the next segment will be set another decade or two into the future...so a movie within a movie.

Posted by: Fleegle

quote:
Originally posted by jchan
I agree...seems to be little better acting, better sets (though fewer). I too was confused with the cast change. I also felt that the overall flow was rather chopped...it REALLY seemed to jump around. This may be due to this just being the background of what happens to the original characters before the son/daughter come to power. It also appears that the next segment will be set another decade or two into the future...so a movie within a movie.

This really comes from squashing 2nd & 3rd book into one mini-series. There are alot of nuances that the original Dune miniseries was able to get into because they could spend the whole 6 hours on the story. I think they just squashed almost the whole of Dume Messiah into this first segment, and the next two will cover Children of Dune.

Posted by: DaveLessnau

It's been a LONG time since I read the books, so maybe that's why I really enjoyed the first episode. It seems they've done a pretty good job capturing the essence of the thing. Really, the only problem I had was with them trying to put some of the subplots in but not giving them enough time to let them mean anything. Surprisingly good.

Posted by: DLiquid

You think Sci Fi will get through the whole miniseries without canceling it part way through?

Posted by: LooseWiring

Not if Children of Dune sucked as bad as Farscape.

Posted by: Chris Roberts

Seems I'm the only one really disappointed with this so far. The acting by pretty much all of the newcomers was sub-par. The replacement for Stilgar being the worst. And with them chopping the story up so much the acting was what should have carried the series.
They seemed to not even bother highlighting the fremen eyes to be consistent with the first series. They did do it, but not nearly as strong as before. A minor annoyance, but I feel its probably something I can chalk up to budget constraints.
Due to them cutting out so much from the book (this first part was all of Dune Messiah as mentioned) a lot of stuff seemed to jumped around too quickly. There was no feeling of cohesiveness. I mean Lynch couldn't fit the first book in one movie even with most of it as exposition and changing stuff. Why would they think they could do the second book in one?
I really noticed the lack of Vittorio as cinematographer (we lost his great lighting for scenes) and I think that John Harrison should have directed this one also. Anyone know why he didn't?
I really hope the next two parts get better. Although seeing Muaddib's son in this one I kept being reminded of Hayden Christensen from Episode II (i.e. really bad actor, but looks good on the cover of teen magazines).

Posted by: bootedbear

I'm enjoying it quite well.

While I do miss Uwe Ochsenknecht's portrayal of Stilgar, I don't think Steven Berkoff is doing a terrible job -- I would agree that he doesn't appear very Stilgar-y though, whatever that means.

With regard to the Fremen eyes, I think they were a bit heavy-handed with them in Dune (nowhere in the books does it mention them glowing blue), so I'm actually overlooking the discontinuity.

Sarandon's scenes have been wonderfully intense so far, and I'm interested to see how Alice Krige will do as Jessica. I really enjoyed Saskia Reeves' portrayal.

bear

Posted by: Rob Helmerichs

I wonder what this puppy's gonna look like on DVD (it was shot in HD)...

Posted by: jchan

quote:
Originally posted by bootedbear
With regard to the Fremen eyes, I think they were a bit heavy-handed with them in Dune (nowhere in the books does it mention them glowing blue), so I'm actually overlooking the discontinuity.

Chani in the dark....new meaning to "bedroom eyes". :up:

Posted by: lordsutch

I got completely lost during the first night (plot threads just seemed to appear and disappear at random), but I'm about to start the second night. Maybe I'll be less confused at the end.

Posted by: jchan

Whenever I see Jessica use "the voice" I can't stop thinking about her as the Borg Queen....

Posted by: Bryanmc

Okay, anyone want to help me out?

I've seen the original movie many times and the Sci-Fi one twice.

I've never read any of the books.

I missed the first part of "Children" and am trying to get up to speed. Anyone want to fill me in (with spoiler tags I suppose).

I assume there's some special destiny for the twins, but I don't know if that's been explained yet or not.

I guess the first show was the bridge that explained and set up this story about the twins. In the "last time on Children of Dune" recap, it looked like Paul was alive and well. What happened and when did it happen in the childrens' lives? I guess they were born in the last show and now they are teenagers, almost to adulthood.

Anyway, I was a bit lost trying to watch this last night. Any help would be great.

I thought the acting was pretty good, for the most part. The twins' aunt seems to be the worst of the bunch. I can't tell if she's supposed to have a Bene Gesserit(sp?) accent of not.

Posted by: doom1701

lord, hopefully you can start to keep up, but I did notice that the first episode almost seemed like highlights from the book. If I hadn't read the book in the past 2 years, I'm sure I would have been totally lost.

Chris, personally I love the direction. Harrison's direction in Dune seemed kinda wooden. There was never an epic feel to it, other than perhaps the space liner scenes. Greg Yaitanes seems to be focusing on the majesty of the story. Interersting that his previous credits are pretty much television shows--I think he might go places.

Posted by: Chris Roberts

Bryanmc, we are in opposite boats as I have not yet watched beyond the first part and I read the books.

To answer your questions about the first episode,

Spoiler Alert! (highlight to read)
Immediately after the children were born Muaddib walked off into the desert to die. That was where the first episode ended.
There was no special mention of the children having destinies in the first episode. It was alluded to that the boy had knowledge of the future though. Also, Muaddib didn't know he was having two kids until the day they were born so nothing was said for the girl.

Feel free to message me with any other questions if you want.

Posted by: doom1701

To add to Chris comment (and something that miffed me when I found it had been left out):

Spoiler Alert! (highlight to read)

There are no blind Fremen. Fremen will not even take the water of a blind person--blind people are sent out into the desert to die, and their water is wasted. That is why you here Otheum's son in the beginning crying out "Don't send me into the desert, father!" In fact, if I remember correctly, stone burners were used against Fremen during the jihad for this reason. They don't do a ton of physical damage, but they blind everyone that looks.

Paul didn't go into the desert because he could still see. I always understood it as he couldn't physically see, but because he was aware of the future, he knew what was going to happen around him, and used that as his sight. After Chani's death (or the birth of a daughter he didn't forsee--there's a topic for discussion), he lost that sight, so following Fremen law, he went into the desert to die.

Posted by: LooseWiring

It was neither Chani's death, nor the birth of Ghanima, that caused Muad'dib to lose his sight.

It was the completion of his portion of the Golden Path that caused him to lose his sight.

Posted by: doom1701

quote:
Originally posted by LooseWiring
It was neither Chani's death, nor the birth of Ghanima, that caused Muad'dib to lose his sight.

It was the completion of his portion of the Golden Path that caused him to lose his sight.

Spoiler Alert! (highlight to read)

But doesn't he "regain" it near the end of Children? If I remember correctly, there are rumors spoken of that the preacher has sight even without the sensor thingy he wears. That got me wondering if maybe it was a loss of confidence in his precognitive abilities, and not a loss of them, that caused the loss of his sight.

That said, I haven't read past Children, and I've only read it once a couple years ago, so I could easily be wrong.

Posted by: dmdeane

quote:
Originally posted by LooseWiring
Not if Children of Dune sucked as bad as Farscape.

Ah, another "cry for help" heard from. If Sci Fi's Children of Dune were half as good as Farscape, they would be doing well. The only thing going for these Dune miniseries is the quality of the books; everything else is a matter of luck, talent, and money on the part of the writers, producers, directors, actors, etc.

I don't understand the lack of consistency between Children of Dune and the first Sci Fi Dune miniseries. Changes of actors may be unavoidable, but why change special effects? Many of the "blue" eyes were barely discernable as such. And the Trade Guild Navigator in Dune looked nothing like the Trade Guild Navigator in Children of Dune.

Oh well. Nothing the Sci Fi Channel has done with Dune so far has lived up to the quality of the books, but otherwise the series has been enjoyable. I'm not sure how well the series explains itself to the non-reader, however.

Posted by: doom1701

quote:
Originally posted by dmdeane
I don't understand the lack of consistency between Children of Dune and the first Sci Fi Dune miniseries. Changes of actors may be unavoidable, but why change special effects? Many of the "blue" eyes were barely discernable as such. And the Trade Guild Navigator in Dune looked nothing like the Trade Guild Navigator in Children of Dune.

I don't think they eyes are that different--yeah, they aren't doing the "glow in the dark" thing anymore, but they are still blue. Even in the first miniseries the intensity varied from scene to scene.

As for the guild navigator, yeah, it looks different. It looks a LOT better, IMO. The changes aren't really all that drastic, though; if you were to create a animitronic puppet of the CGI navigator in Children, and make it less translucent, you'd have the bat looking thingy from Dune.

Posted by: omv

Potential spoilers for Ep 2

Spoiler Alert! (highlight to read)

Anyone else bothered by how childish the twins act? I'd expect them to act more like their aunt did - very adultish due to all the preborn memories. Instead they seem like your typical teenagers. {sigh}

Posted by: leadman

My wife missed to record episode 1 and is in dire need of it. I'd greatly appreciate if anybody could get me a copy either as MPG/AVI or on tape. Will pay for tape and shipping of course.

Posted by: Rob Helmerichs

The whole thing is being reaired, this weekend I think...check "upcoming episodes."

Posted by: Chris Roberts

I've now watched the second part and the whole way through kept thinking "How can anyone think this is better than the first series?". I guess we all have different tastes though. If they do a directors cut DVD later I'll check that out and maybe I'll have gotten over my initial shock and like it better. Although its doubtful since its supposed to be a sequel yet even the garden looks totally different from the first even if it is closer to the book description. I'm just still very much annoyed how they didn't keep the same look as the previous series. People keep saying the special effects are better and thus improve this too. But to me its just like Episode II compared to Empire Strikes Back. One has cool tangible looking stuff and the other is all obvious CGI. Both look good, but not at all like the same universe.
Right now the hot chicks just aren't enough to get me to recommend this series to anyone. :down:

Posted by: jchan

I've seen the final episode. All I can say is...wha? They left about 4 different plot lines open...no closure. So as far as good story, the first series was much better...continuity, conclusion, etc.

Posted by: JohnJr

I watched all three parts in a mini-marathon yesterday and I left it with three-thumbs up! I haven't read the Children books, and only watched the Sci-Fi vs. of Dune once, and that may explain why I enjoyed this mini-series so much.

Spoiler Alert! (highlight to read)

My take on the fremen eyes, is that most of the show was set outside of a "stiech?" and it sharpened the fact that Spice production was dropping and the planet was being terra-formed. The only times they ever showed the intense blue eyes, that I can recall is when there was direct spice intake.

Overall I thought it was really well done. A great break from my normal TV fare!

-John

Posted by: TreborPugly

quote:
Originally posted by jchan
I've seen the final episode. All I can say is...wha? They left about 4 different plot lines open...no closure. So as far as good story, the first series was much better...continuity, conclusion, etc.

Well, don't forget "God Emperor of Dune"! I'm assuming Sci Fi is also planning a miniseries of this book.

The first book, even if he wrote it with the intention of continuing the story, was much more stand-alone than any of the others. Dune Messiah, and Children of Dune are definitely dependent on the next book. I think God Emperor of Dune was also planned as a finish, but fans and publishers managed to squeeze out two more books from him. (Heretics of Dune, and Children of the Mind)

I highly recommend reading the Dune books. They are much better than any movie or miniseries to date. Some things can just not be communicated visually. And normal actors cannot act the way that those with Bene Gesserit training do. There was WAY to much emoting going on. Of course, with a book, we could get the description of their complete lack of emoting, but still know what they were feeling and thinking...

Treb.

Posted by: Rob Helmerichs

quote:
Originally posted by TreborPugly
I highly recommend reading the Dune books. They are much better than any movie or miniseries to date.

Oh, man, do I disagree! While the first book is clearly superior to the miniseries, the second and third books are bad almost to the point of unreadability; the miniseries is a vast improvement.

By God Emperor, on the other hand, Herbert had his groove back on; while not in the class of the original, it was at least entertaining.

Posted by: Chris Roberts

OK, I watched the final part last night. I think I've covered pretty much everything in my previous rants so no need to go over it again. Except for one thing... How did they get away with that blatant plagarism of the Fellowship of the Ring soundtrack? I swear I kept expecting to hear Enya sing May It Be for the last half of the episode.

Posted by: doom1701

quote:
Originally posted by TreborPugly
but fans and publishers managed to squeeze out two more books from him. (Heretics of Dune, and Children of the Mind)Treb.

I thought it was Chapterhouse, not Children of the Mind--did the name change after it was initially released?

Posted by: stevel

quote:
Originally posted by Medieval Guy
Oh, man, do I disagree! While the first book is clearly superior to the miniseries, the second and third books are bad almost to the point of unreadability; the miniseries is a vast improvement.

I agree with this (though I haven't seen the second miniseries, I liked the first).

I can't say that I am a big fan of the first Dune book either, but it was pretty good. The sequels, those that I read anyway, were, I felt, awful.

Posted by: TreborPugly

quote:
Originally posted by doom1701
I thought it was Chapterhouse, not Children of the Mind--did the name change after it was initially released?

Sorry, you're right. I was looking at a list which had Children of the Mind as the 6th Dune book, but Chapterhouse is really it. Not sure what Children of the Mind is in relation to Dune. Have to look at the actual books now.

Treb.

Posted by: jchan

Children of the Mind is an Orson Scott Card book.

Posted by: paksen

How many episodes were there to Children of Dune? I lost power last night so no Tivo. If there was a new episode I missed it.
Did I miss anything? When might it be replayed?

Thanks,

Paksen

Posted by: jones07

Sunday. All six hours

Posted by: JohnJr

What jones07 said... Marathon this coming Sunday. Three two hour shows. Oh, I see you are in Denver. No, there wasn't a show last night. Last one was Tuesday night... Sunday, Monday, Tuesday. I barely made it through the Tuesday night show, before the snow ditched my satellite.

-John

Posted by: wallace

I rather enjoyed the music that was played during the three parts. There is that really long (5 minute) part in the first episode where only music is played during the display of various events (starts around 1 hour 40 minutes into it) which I really liked for some reason. Anyone know if we can find the soundtrack for this?

Posted by: doom1701

Wallace, I also loved that part--although I will agree, the music, especially in that sequence, seemed a lot like the LOTR soundtrack...

Posted by: doom1701

OK, finished watching it today. Loved it. What can I say--the hats were so much better in this miniseries! :)

Actually, I did think it was very good.

Spoiler Alert! (highlight to read)
I wish we would have seen more of Leto's transformation. If I remember correctly, in the book, he has already grown essentially a layer of "armor" by the end--not just some scabs. And I still have to say that if you hadn't read the book, it probably wouldn't make a ton of sense--the mystery of "the preacher" is covered in a LOT more detail. Of course, that's easier to do in print. In a movie, where you have to have an actor playing both Paul and the Preacher, it's pretty easy to figure out they are the same person.

I'm really tempted to dig out God Emperor now.

Posted by: kimsan

quote:
Originally posted by doom1701
...And I still have to say that if you hadn't read the book, it probably wouldn't make a ton of sense...

Figure I could snip that without actually giving away any spoiler info.

I read the books in the early 80s, my wife never heard of them. Periodically throughout both Dune and Children we'd pause while I tried to recall and explain things that were never really all that clear. Among these:

Spice: importance to travel was pretty apparent, but other powers were vague

Bene Jessaret(sp): who they were, their mission, their abilities, the VOICE, loads of things

Mentat: while the term was used, their purpose was not readily apparent

Face Dancer: you got the drift that they could shape shift eventually, but little else

The whole worms and water and spice (oh my!) relationship was hard to grasp. The players and the politics were hard to keep sorted out.

I enjoyed it more since I remembered much fro the books. She enjoyed it, but said it would have been pretty much unintelligible without the pauses for translation and background.

So this weekend we'll try out Riverworld and see if it too needs an tourguide to make it comprehensible :)

cheers,

kim

Posted by: esperantisto

I *love* God Emperor Dune!