TiVo Community Forums Archives - Why S1 owners should pay less

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Why S1 owners should pay less
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Posted by: TiVo Fool

I am the proud owner of a Series 1 TiVo. I happily pay my fee every month because I feel that I'm getting a great value for my dollar. The way I see it, I've been getting two things for my subscription:

1) Program guide data and the wonderful functionality that it enables.
2) Software updates that deliver new capabilities to my TiVo.

If TiVo is no longer going to provide new software for the Series 1, then why should have to pay as much as Series 2 owners?

I'm happy to continue paying for the program guide data, but I don't think I should have to fund software improvements that I'll never receive.

Posted by: phone1

Hmm.. since I paid for lifetime on my Series 1 for service and future SW upgrades, does this mean I should get a partial refund?

Posted by: dgh

quote:
Originally posted by TiVo Fool
I happily pay my fee every month

I'm not seeing much incentive here for TiVo to reduce it ;)

Posted by: spankspank

I'd like to hear Tivo's justification for not reducing the service fee after halting updates.

Maybe the answer is, "Series 1 buyers got they're hardware heavily subsidized, so now we are paying back that debt with the higher profit from those customers". And that's fine, I'd just like to hear Tivo's position.

TivoPony, will you answer this question?

Why not lower monthly (and lifetime) service fees for Series 1 Tivos now that the cost to support them is lower?

Posted by: hawkamer

Does TiVo's Terms of Service guarantee you software upgrades? I think not.

Posted by: mikedaly

quote:
Originally posted by spankspank
Why not lower monthly (and lifetime) service fees for Series 1 Tivos now that the cost to support them is lower?

It could be argued that the cost to support them is not lower. (Note that I'm not arguing this, just playing devil's advocate...)

Some Series 1 owners have a grandfathered toll-free number. This definitely costs TiVo money.

Some Series 1 owners have a grandfathered one-time lifetime transfer. This will cost TiVo future money.

The majority of Series 1 owners get their guide updates via a phone call. Each phone call costs TiVo money which they pay to UUNet. With Series 2s, it is still to be seen how many users switch to the now-supported network-based updates (regardless of whether they get HMO or not).

Again, I'm just making points here, not defending anything. And I don't have a Series 1. And like phone1 said, if they lower the monthly fee for S1 owners, will the S1 lifetimers then get miffed because they aren't getting any sort of discount?

Posted by: cbordman

i plan to stop using the dial up UUNET which Tivo surely has to pay for.. Will i get a discounted price for "supplying my own access"?

Posted by: phone1

quote:
Originally posted by hawkamer
Does TiVo's Terms of Service guarantee you software upgrades? I think not.

Not any I could see, basically just guarantees you TiVo Service on their terms:

quote:
Terms of Service. The TiVo logo on our TiVo Recorder means that it can receive the TiVo Service offered and provided by TiVo for personal, non-commercial use on a subscription basis. Your activation and continued use of the TiVo Service is subject to the terms and conditions of this Customer Service Agreement.

Changes to TiVo Service. TiVo may, at its discretion, from time to time change, add or remove features of the TiVo Service or change the terms and conditions of this agreement. Such changes shall be effective upon notification by TiVo. You are responsible for viewing any new terms and if you are dissatisfied with any such changes to the TiVo Service or this agreement, you may immediately cancel your subscription as provided in the “Termination of Service” paragraph below. TiVo also reserves the right to discontinue the TiVo Service altogether at any time in its discretion.

Subscription Fees. You agree to pay for your subscription in advance. Your subscription fee will cover the basic service for a residential customer using an authorized product receiving the TiVo Service.

I couldn't find anything about guaranteed SW upgrades. I guess one option if you want to pay less is cancel your sub and use your S1 manually. As I indicated above, it's kind of a non-issue for lifetime subs, we're not paying anything monthly anyway, and at $200 on my S1 it's long since paid for itself. :)

Note: I purposely pulled this from an older viewer's guide in use when Series 1's were still being sold. I don't know if any of the current language has changed.

Posted by: spankspank

quote:
Originally posted by mikedaly
The majority of Series 1 owners get their guide updates via a phone call. Each phone call costs TiVo money which they pay to UUNet.

If this were true wouldn't Tivo have added this configuration screen years ago:

Fill in these values to dial your own ISP:

username: XXXXXXX
password: YYYYYYYY
phone number: 555-555-1212

Tivo has taken lots of cost cutting actions. Why not save money by allowing people to dial up their own ISP? This might also resolve some customer's 800 number issues as well.
Maybe because it wouldn't save Tivo a penny. It's likely Tivo has a blanket contract with UUNET paying them a fixed price for any and all phone calls.

Posted by: TK421

quote:
Originally posted by spankspank
Maybe because it wouldn't save Tivo a penny. It's likely Tivo has a blanket contract with UUNET paying them a fixed price for any and all phone calls.

That may be true, but it's also likely that the cost of implementing and supporting connections through the customer's ISP would be more than any cost savings realized from UUNET.

Posted by: mikedaly

quote:
Originally posted by spankspank
If this were true wouldn't Tivo have added this configuration screen years ago:

Fill in these values to dial your own ISP:

username: XXXXXXX
password: YYYYYYYY
phone number: 555-555-1212

Tivo has taken lots of cost cutting actions. Why not save money by allowing people to dial up their own ISP? This might also resolve some customer's 800 number issues as well.
Maybe because it wouldn't save Tivo a penny. It's likely Tivo has a blanket contract with UUNET paying them a fixed price for any and all phone calls.

You could be right; I don't know how TiVo pays UUnet. But even if it is a fixed amount, I'm sure that amount must be based on the expected call volume. The "average" S2 won't add as much to that call volume as the "average" S1.

And money aside... I'd think twice (or three or four times) before typing my ISP password into my TiVo. Wouldn't you?

Posted by: dgh

quote:
Originally posted by mikedaly
And money aside... I'd think twice (or three or four times) before typing my ISP password into my TiVo. Wouldn't you?

I'm sure they would collect only aggregate passwords.

Posted by: SteakMan

quote:
Originally posted by spankspank
I'd like to hear Tivo's justification for not reducing the service fee after halting updates.

dgh hit it. They don't have to justify it, you are paying it :) They will charge whatever the market will bear.

You have every right to stop paying it and find a cheaper alternative.

If enough people did that, I'm sure they'd consider lowering the fee.

Good luck finding a cheaper alternative that compares :D

-SteakMan-

Posted by: mikedaly

quote:
Originally posted by dgh
I'm sure they would collect only aggregate passwords.

LOL! Love it!

Posted by: spankspank

quote:
Originally posted by SteakMan
dgh hit it. They don't have to justify it, you are paying it :) They will charge whatever the market will bear.

You have every right to stop paying it and find a cheaper alternative.

If enough people did that, I'm sure they'd consider lowering the fee.

Good luck finding a cheaper alternative that compares :D

-SteakMan-

Tivo justifies their actions in this forum all the time. Price increases, 800 number removal, serial port support removal, etc. I understand they don't have to, the fact is they do. What is your point exactly?

Posted by: SteakMan

quote:
Originally posted by spankspank
Tivo justifies their actions in this forum all the time. Price increases, 800 number removal, serial port support removal, etc. I understand they don't have to, the fact is they do. What is your point exactly?

Exactly? I guess just to illustrate that the justification is obvious. And it won't be that easy to put a good spin on it, so don't expect them to say anything unless/until they do decide to lower the fees.

I won't be holding my breath.
-SteakMan-

Posted by: mmascari

Look at it another way, the guide data is a consumable of the TiVo. So what you're really buying is replacement guide data for the data that has already been consumed. In that context, it doesn't matter how you consume the data, the replacement cost is the same. In the case of a TiVo, time consumes the data. For other products other things need replenishment. Take a laser printer for example, the HP 2100 series was replaced by the HP 2200 series printers, and both use the same toner cartridge. Should the users of the HP 2100 pay less for toner than the users of the HP 2200?

If the guide data was different, that would be a different story. Lets pretend that to implement grouping, additional information needs to be added to the guide, and that this additional information is only sent to Series 2 and not Series 1. Then you could argue that the difference gave the two products (guide data) different value and might be priced differently.

Software updates aren't really a consumable, they are more like a maintenance agreement for X amount of time after purchase. In this case X just wasn't defined, and we're lucky it's not 0 like most consumer electronics, but instead is like most computer software meaning it's an undetermined amount of time.

Matt

Posted by: Chris Gerhard

TiVo is a business that has never even come close to break even. Lowering the fees for the standalone series 1 can't possibly help their grave financial condition. If things change and lowering the fees helps move the company closer to profitability then it should happen. I wouldn't hold my breath. TiVo can not continue to lose large sums of money each year and stay in business. The company does not have unlimited resources or time.

Chris