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Concerns about mutliple DVR subscription pricing!
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Posted by: Beach

The facts are if you are buying multiple DVRs in your house the second, third, etc. Should not cost the same for subscription.
I am ready to purchase a second DVR but TWO things are keeping me from doing it.
1- The fact that I have to pay the same price for a second subscription. The price of the first is very justified as the programming I download is of value and saves me a lot of time, there are account management costs, etc. Why should I pay the same fee for the programming information that is already in my home? Do I pay as much for a second phone line? Do 15 more channels of cable cost as much as the first 15?
The answer is NO. It is called economies of scale or add on sales. The first price reflects burden costs of setting up and managing the account, providing the data, etc. A piece of hardware should cost the same the second time as you need total redundancy. For a service there is a ton of redundancy. The only thing you are doing is providing the data twice.

So here is my #2!

2- If Tivo is not getting economies of scale and they "need the money" they will not be in business long. If I have purchased the home networking option why does my primary DVR not share the download to the second, third , etc.
The only argument for keeping the same price would be that it ties up the same amount of resources back to Tivo to get the programming. If so shame on Tivo! You can share MP3s from my computer, shows between DVRs but not your own programming?
I think the fact they are charging the same price is a sign that they need the cash, not a company that I want to sink more money in to.
This current pricing model makes little sense if you look objectively at it, it does raise concerns as a subcriber!

Beach

Posted by: Hunter Green

No one here knows if Tribune charges TiVo for guide data per household, per account, or per device, but my bets are on the latter. If it costs TiVo twice as much to put guide data on your two TiVos, it has to cost you twice as much, too. This might not be what you want to be true, but it may be true anyway. (And TiVo is not likely to be posting details of their contract with Tribune here, so it'll have to remain a mystery.)

Supposing Tribune does charge per household, not per device, that just means TiVo is distributing the cost one particular way instead of another. How keen would you be on the idea of the first TiVo costing you $16/month, and all subsequent ones only $10/month? That makes one-TiVo households pay more (and means make it harder for customers to get started on the TiVo Way), two-TiVo households break even, and three-or-more save money. And that probably makes the proposal approximately revenue-nuetral (and until TiVo turns its first profit, any plan that's not revenue-nuetral is not worth considering).

Or are you really saying "they should charge me less" and trying to disguise that as saying "they should change the distribution of fees" ("in a way that means they charge me less")?

Posted by: Beach

What I am saying is if they do not have a way to price second and third DVRs at a more competitive price they will not see profitable growth.

1- Poor contracts are meant to be re-written if they are really locked in at a per DVR price. Better to re-write a contract than lose one as the company goes out of business.

2- Economies of scale on subscriptions are there. If Tivo hasn't found them then shame on them. Account management, downloading once, billing, etc. Do the math it is not hard to see how several in one house under one name cost less than one per house. Even cost of sale should be factored in to the cost.

3- That aside, this same price model WILL NOT WORK in the market. Time will prove this out. So many reasons I shouldn't have to explain. Find an example in the market were a service deliverable costs the same for multiple purchases (especially when the deliverable could feasibly cost ZERO)

Again the only sane reason could be some existing contract, that said get the lawyers together and fix an obvious problem. Whoever they pay a roylaty would much rather get less on devices 2, 3 and 4 than get nothing at all.

Posted by: phone1

Was it really necessary to start yet another thread about this when there's one on the identical topic started just yesterday and still on page one? Particularly one that is based on no facts, no knowledge of TiVo's business model and a seemingly vague concept of business in general? Hollow statements like "Do the math it is not hard to see how several in one house under one name cost less than one per house." (Figures please?) and "Economies of scale on subscriptions are there. If Tivo hasn't found them then shame on them." don't really carry much weight. (TiVo seems to be getting a lot of shame heaped on it in this thread.)

Posted by: Beach

I do business Development for one of the best success stories in the Tech sector for 2002 and we will be again in 2003. I don't feel I need to spell out the obvious. This is a poor pricing model, one that will not make it long term, how do I know this? Show me where it exists in the market. It is so painfully obvious that a second subscription of bits and bytes should not cost as much as the first that you will not find many that will pay for it.
I don't want to do the thinking for Tivo but I do suggest they start thinking!
If you think the second subscription is of equal cost to Tivo I suggest you study up! Figures where given: Total redundancy:Account mgt, billing, downloading data. Better yet tell me what isn't redundant about a subscription! It isn't being vague, this model isn't rocket science!
Obviously you must be pretty close to them as you seem put out by my statements.
I want to see Tivo succeed, companies succeed through strong bottom line revenue. There is NO EASIER WAY to get bottom line revenue than by selling to your existing customer base! This pricing model will not bring that revenue in.
It doesn't take a lot of knowledge about Tivo to understand their model! The specifics to their contracts are not public knowledge but as stated before, contracts when they don't help you grow your business should be evaluated and re-written so they do. This happens every day. If they are paying a subcription per box (one of the only factors that would keep the 2, 3 etc. box price so high in a single house hold) the holder of that contract wants to maximixe their profit from that contract too.

Posted by: phone1

quote:
Originally posted by Beach
If you think the second subscription is of equal cost to Tivo I suggest you study up! Figures where given: Total redundancy:Account mgt, billing, downloading data. Better yet tell me what isn't redundant about a subscription!

Sorry, I'm not the one who needs to "study up." (And I still don't see any figures, just a lot of broad, vague, statements.)There are NO economies of scale in servicing multiple SA TiVo units.

Each SA TiVo requires its own phone call/download, whether it's in the next room or across the street. Get it? Same exact cost to TiVo per event.

There are no significant savings from an accounting standpoint. In my case and for many others, both my SA TiVos have lifetime, so there's no billing at all. Even monthly subscribers have their credit cards automatically debited, an electronic transaction that cost a few pennies.

Account management? What is that exactly? Each unit is statistically just as likely as another to develop an anomaly that will result in a call to Customer Care. The fact that two calls come from the same household doesn't save TiVo any money.

Sure it's easier to sell to the customer base. But in this model the sales should be producing higher margins! A loyal (not to mention captive) base is willing to pay more. Where margins need to be thin is in the competitive marketplace where you are trying to attract new customers. I agree that if the savings were there, they should be passed along if TiVo can do so without negatively impacting its bottom line. But to hand out discounts arbitrarily without justification is fiscal suicide.

Shareholders have been known to sue the management of companies who acted in that fashion.

Posted by: Beach

Tivo unit #1 (Primary) downloads the program data via the net. Tivo unit #2, #3 get the program data from Tivo Unit #1 (no connection to Tivo).
Please tell me what units #2 and #3 cost Tivo for that download?
When I say download those are "vague terms" but I would assume we don't have to talk about every byte that gets passed for handshaking and establishing connection, downloading data, etc. BECAUSE it should not be necessary for the discussion.
So tell me in the model above what cost is #2 and #3 to Tivo?

Posted by: mmascari

quote:
Originally posted by Beach
Tivo unit #1 (Primary) downloads the program data via the net. Tivo unit #2, #3 get the program data from Tivo Unit #1 (no connection to Tivo).
Please tell me what units #2 and #3 cost Tivo for that download?
When I say download those are "vague terms" but I would assume we don't have to talk about every byte that gets passed for handshaking and establishing connection, downloading data, etc. BECAUSE it should not be necessary for the discussion.
So tell me in the model above what cost is #2 and #3 to Tivo?

That sounds good, with just a few flaws. Until this week, units #2 and #3 didn't have any way to talk to unit #1. I don't mean, just no software for the communication, but no connection or knowledge at all. Version 4 of the software changes that picture some, but will take a month to roll out to the customer base. What we don't know, is if there is a feature that will let units #2 and #3 get the data they need from unit #1. All we know about the communication is that unit #1 can send a show to the other units. Now, 6 months (or some other arbitrary time frame) from now, this may change and then we could look for a change in price. Why would they announce a change now? As a suggestion, this makes sense. As a rant on why it costs too much to have more than 1 TiVo, it's just a rant like any other.

Posted by: Hunter Green

They still have all the costs that they always had, except one relatively small one: the cost of bandwidth and server usage. In particular, the two big ones: Tribune's contractual costs for the data (there's some info to suggest this is about 60% of the total cost-to-consumer), and customer support for the associated TiVo.

Posted by: Beach

Until this week??? How long have they been testing networking? Don't look in the rear view mirror look forward. The fact is they can share this data if they want. Could there be some technical issues, possibly but not anymore technical than the four features of the HMO, which by the way I purchased. This is not about $15 a month, this shows Tivos market acumen.
You can argue this all you want time will prove me right. My guess is Tivo will reduce multiple unit costs. If they don't multiple units will not be adopted enough to keep the feature. You do have to have enough subscribers of a feature to warrant supporting that feature.
I am sure there are some that love TV so much they will pay $30 - $45 a month for TV schedules but you are the exception both on price and TV addiction. It is a fine balance of someone that watches enough TV to warrant 2 or 3 Tivo's and still has enough disposable income to pay $30 - $45 a month to support that habit. :D

Posted by: phone1

quote:
Originally posted by Beach
Tivo unit #1 (Primary) downloads the program data via the net. Tivo unit #2, #3 get the program data from Tivo Unit #1 (no connection to Tivo).
Please tell me what units #2 and #3 cost Tivo for that download?
When I say download those are "vague terms" but I would assume we don't have to talk about every byte that gets passed for handshaking and establishing connection, downloading data, etc. BECAUSE it should not be necessary for the discussion.
So tell me in the model above what cost is #2 and #3 to Tivo?

There might be some point to this if it worked that way. But as has been pointed out it doesn't today. This was discussed in detail in the other thread about this. Next time, "study up" before beginning a rant.

As I stated, when TiVo can figure out how to cut costs, they'd be wise to pass them along. Unfortunately, I believe the LAN delivery of guide data to multiple TiVos has some real potential for fraud.

Posted by: Beach

Feedback that shows holes in Tivo's strategy = rant?
I hope that phone1 is not a Tivo employee, if you are it might explain why they have the pricing model they do.
Things work the way the do today because that is Tivo's chosen path.
This goes back to my economies of scale. They are there if they want to exploit them the fact they haven't speaks about their direction or acumen you take your pick.
It is not a technical issue, may be a contract but that should get fixed.
I don't expect a fix tomorrow but stating a very common sense view point as a customer may help them improve their model.
Time will prove this right, I guarantee it!

Posted by: Hunter Green

So did the last ten thousand armchair-CEOs to visit this forum.

Posted by: Beach

Phone 1:
I wish gas was 50 cents a gallon and a sixpack of beer was $1.00.

It's frustrating to hear people whine about price yet offer no real justification for a discount. Even at the current subscription price TiVo is struggling. The old "we'll sell more if we cut the price" marketing strategy has put more than one company out of business.

DTiVos get their TiVo guide data through the satellite feed and require very little maintenance otherwise. One sat. feed gets all the TiVos you own. The $4.99 "additional receiver" fee is just gravy for D*. (Note that it applies to any receiver, not just a DTiVo.)

Each SA requires the same daily call (dialup or broadband, doesn't matter) whether it's in your house or your neighbor's and requires individual server time while it's happening. Until TiVo can figure out how networked TiVos can share a single update, I doubt you'll see any price breaks, maybe not even then.

Just get over it.

>>>>>>>>>.
Telling customers to "get over" common sense holes should make things better.

Your own words:
"DTiVos get their TiVo guide data through the satellite feed and require very little maintenance otherwise. One sat. feed gets all the TiVos you own. The $4.99 "additional receiver" fee is just gravy for D*. (Note that it applies to any receiver, not just a DTiVo.) "
This is economies of scale we are talking about.

You act like their is some technology holding them back, it is their technology. They should fix it (if that is the issue).
If it is licensing than threads such as this go a long way in renegotiating a win\win\win agreement (Tivo\Tribune\Customer).

You asked for solutions they have been given, you have even given them.
In fact you have said that "anything they charge is GRAVY" for boxes 2 and beyond.

What gives? Are you just trying to get your 12.5 posts a day up to 14?

Posted by: phone1

Sigh :( Some people don't seem to actually read other's posts before attacking them. You're talking apples to oranges comparing the SAs and DirecTiVos - they're not even operated by the same company.

I've avoided addressing you personally, but you seem determined to take it to that level. Do you know anything about TiVo? You certainly appear to be clueless. :rolleyes:

OK move along, nothing to see here...

Posted by: mmascari

quote:
Originally posted by Beach
Until this week??? How long have they been testing networking? Don't look in the rear view mirror look forward. The fact is they can share this data if they want. Could there be some technical issues, possibly but not anymore technical than the four features of the HMO, which by the way I purchased. This is not about $15 a month, this shows Tivos market acumen.
You can argue this all you want time will prove me right. My guess is Tivo will reduce multiple unit costs. If they don't multiple units will not be adopted enough to keep the feature. You do have to have enough subscribers of a feature to warrant supporting that feature.
I am sure there are some that love TV so much they will pay $30 - $45 a month for TV schedules but you are the exception both on price and TV addiction. It is a fine balance of someone that watches enough TV to warrant 2 or 3 Tivo's and still has enough disposable income to pay $30 - $45 a month to support that habit. :D

Until this week, yes. Until this week there was no installed base of TiVo's that had any networking features. Did they start development of the TiVo networking features this week, no. Did they tell us about the networking features as soon as they started development of them, no. Did they let the beta testers describe the features before the launch, no. So until this week, there was no way that a multiple TiVo price savings could be sold. Could they be working on this, yes. Do we know, no. And finally, do you think they would tell us ahead of time, no.

What would happen to the small number of users who would currently buy multiple units at the current price if they told us "3 months from now the price is going to drop". Is there an alternative choice for those users that is cheaper and requires announcing a new price before it is available to be sold to keep them from buying something else. Would they sell more additional TiVos if the additional cost was cheaper, probably, but until they can actually provide this, announcing it only has downsides.

Do I think they will do this at some point, yes. Would it cause me to buy another TiVo, maybe, but definitely favor TiVo over another alternative that was more expensive. For all we know, they have this is beta right now, but there are issues that are still being worked out. Either way, I wouldn't expect any company to ever pre-announce a price drop. Announcing a price hike makes sense, it leads to fence sitters making purchasing decisions. Announcing a price drop, just strands inventory in the supply chain.

So, knowing this, a suggestion to lower the price for multiple units in one house is a good suggestion. Complaining that they don't do it already or haven't announced it yet is a rant.

Posted by: Beach

Mmascari,
I am in total agreement. Phone1 stated that I made no suggestions which I clearly did.
Part of bringing a solution to market is doing focus groups on pricing. Why would users pay the same price for a highly redundant services?
Did Tivo really do a focus group? I doubt it.
Again I bought HMO because the value for me was there. Ranting is not the intention, wanting Tivo to succeed in multiple DVRs per home is.

Phone1,
Totally different from a gear head perspective. Facts are it is data being shared from one machine to another (old, old, old technology) with all the caveats of security, replication, authentication, etc.
With 12 posts a day you obviously know a lot so here is the question for you.
What factors keep Tivo from seeing large redundancy savings with units 2,3, etc. in the same home using HMO?

Posted by: mmascari

I thought phone1 and I had the same opinion on this :)

Just to be clear of what that opinion is:
Reduced pricing for additional units cannot be done on today's production platform. There is very little economy of scale for additional units today. This may all change in the future. (Also duplicate threads are not a good thing.)

Now, since this is a suggestion forum: Reduced pricing for additional units is a great idea :)

Posted by: Beach

Mmascari and Phone1.
My question still stands.

What factors keep Tivo from seeing large redundancy savings with units 2,3, etc. in the same home using HMO?

I would like both your perspectives.

Beach

Posted by: Attack

quote:
Originally posted by Beach
[I am sure there are some that love TV so much they will pay $30 - $45 a month for TV schedules but you are the exception both on price and TV addiction. It is a fine balance of someone that watches enough TV to warrant 2 or 3 TiVo's and still has enough disposable income to pay $30 - $45 a month to support that habit. :D [/B]

I definitely love TV and I pay monthly on 2 of my SA TiVo's. I would have another if but I just won't send more money on TV monthly. I know we will never get a multi unit discount on the first gen units, but I will not upgrade to Series 2 if they don't add the ability to get a discount if you have more than one unit on the same account that are connected to a LAN.

Posted by: Beach

This is the point.
Some view this as "ranting".
Speaking from experience! We use this kind of "feedback" to change business in the companies I have worked for. One or two customers saying the pricing model is keeping them from buying boxes won't make the difference, especially if it is a contract issue. Tivo will need to show how the contract is impacting the ability for both parties to maximize revenue!
Now maybe they will do some research in this down the road when they are ready, but then again I haven't heard anyone say Tivo asked what a fair market price for box 2, 3 ,4 using HMO would be in the first place.

I am still anxiously awaiting the reply from Phone1 and mmascari on redundancy.

Beach

Posted by: mmascari

quote:
Originally posted by Beach
Mmascari and Phone1.
My question still stands.

What factors keep Tivo from seeing large redundancy savings with units 2,3, etc. in the same home using HMO?

I would like both your perspectives.

Beach

As I said in a previous post, today's production platform doesn't support your suggestion. If a future platform will support this model, I don't know.

I don't work for TiVo, only have 1 TiVo, and waited to buy it for a very long time since one of the features I want isn't supported. There wasn't an alternative product that supported that feature though, so when the price increase for Lifetime service was announced, I got one right away. If I did work for TiVo, or had any knowledge about future pricing strategies, I definitely wouldn't be posting here.

As I said before, any announcement of a price decrease can only hurt sales until the decrease is made. If you want a recent example of this, look at the video game market last year. XBOX prices were announced that they would be lowered from the same price as PS2 to $50 cheaper in several weeks. At the same time, Sony stated there would be no change in PS2 price. This left a market where PS2 buyers didn't change, but XBOX buyers were waiting for the price to drop. One week before the XBOX price drop, Sony dropped the price of the PS2 $50, effective immediately. Now, PS2 buyers had a cheaper product, and potential XBOX buyers waiting for the price drop had to compare the current PS2 price with a current XBOX price that was higher, or continue waiting for the future XBOX price that would be the same as the current PS2 price. I'm sure many buyers that were more price concerned than platform concerned switched, stopped waiting, and purchased immediately. If Sony had announced they were going to switch at the same time as XBOX, those buyers would have just waited, and additional buyers of both systems would probably have waiter for the price drop leaving extra stock stuck in the sales chain.

So my perspective is still that this is a good suggestion, but that we will not hear about any reduction in prices until they can be made. Remember, supporting 2 boxes talking to each other adds additional complications to the support structure compared to 2 boxes that are totally independent. I would guess that they are watching the roll out of HMO to help determine what extra work this puts on the support staff. If the load on the support staff is too high, then I wouldn't expect to see this kind of offer. The support issues around home networks is exactly why many broadband ISPs allow home networks, but don't support them.

Posted by: Beach

There are no economies of scale because Tivo hasn't figured out how to share the program information?
Is that your stance on my question?
The know how to share recorded media, they know how to share MP3s from my computer, they know how to show pictures and I can remotely manage my recordings but getting shared programming over the $100 HMO option is just too tough?
Is this the mentality you get when working with a TV crowd?
Phone1, you better have something better than this.
Again.
What factors keep Tivo from seeing large redundancy savings with units 2,3, etc. in the same home using HMO?

Posted by: mmascari

quote:
Originally posted by Beach
There are no economies of scale because Tivo hasn't figured out how to share the program information?
Is that your stance on my question?
The know how to share recorded media, they know how to share MP3s from my computer, they know how to show pictures and I can remotely manage my recordings but getting shared programming over the $100 HMO option is just too tough?
Is this the mentality you get when working with a TV crowd?

I didn't say they haven't figured out how to share the data on an HMO connection. I said "The current platform doesn't support this". These are two very different statements. Sharing the data is just one part of the cost, and we can only guess that it's the biggest, (probably a good guess). For that matter, how do you know it's not happening and they just didn't tell us (wild speculation by me with no grounds whatever ). My statement that it's not supported is based on what they have told us. Based on what we know about a TiVo, it doesn't share the data and there is no economy of scale, hence no price break.

Why do you assume they can do it? Why do you assume they should be giving us a price break if they do? What if connecting 2 TiVos on a network generates a larger percentage of support calls and negates any savings for TiVo? I don't know any of these answers, do you?

I stated that they would not announce a price break, until they could offer it immediately to avoid stopping sales to people who would buy additional units anyway. For someone who does "business Development for one of the best success stories in the Tech sector for 2002" you seem to have a problem with them not announcing a price break they are not ready to sell.

As many people have mentioned, the price of something isn't necessarily determined by it's cost, but rather by the supply and demand. Maybe they have studies that say, reducing the price of additional subscriptions will not create enough additional demand to make up for the price break. I can almost guarantee they have research concerning the supply side and what competing products there currently are or have been announced. So maybe, with the current supply there is no need to reduce the price.

All we can do here is make a guess based on unknown information. Anyone with real information isn't talking, and I wouldn't expect them to.

So, one more time, I'll say: A price break for additional units is a good suggestion. A demand that they should reduce the price and saying if they cann't they are not very smart, is a rant.

Posted by: Beach

You make some good points.
I think patience more than anything seperates our view points.

To be clear I never demanded anything. Tivo can keep their prices were they are at, I just want to see them get to what I feel is a pricing model that will drive multiple units to the masses, sooner rather than later.

I purchased the HMO option for $99, funny how the second HMO only costs $49 <g>.

I have been in the networking and application space for 14 years. Technically their can't be that big of road blocks to sharing program data. The current connectivity would suggest it is feasable today. And what I am saying is if technical roadblocks do exist they have allowed them to stay there.

Phone1 says their are little economies of scale and that is why I keep pushing on this.

If anything it sounds like it could be a contract issue around the programming. Which is understandable but Tivo should look at renegotiating it if it is.

Aqain, Tivo can keep the price at what it is and if their data supports it great. I find it hard to believe it will stay there for many reasons.
BUT don't hide behind it's a technical issues. (That was my reference to being very smart)

Phone1 - Still waiting to get your answer to my question.

Posted by: phone1

Some people just don't get it. Give it up and put him on your ignore list as I did. :)

Posted by: Beach

1 if I was on the ignore list why bother replying
2 you did not answer a very basic question for a Tivo guru such as yourself.

Educate me.

What factors keep Tivo from seeing large redundancy savings with units 2,3, etc. in the same home using HMO?

Posted by: mmascari

quote:
Originally posted by Beach
1 if I was on the ignore list why bother replying
2 you did not answer a very basic question for a Tivo guru such as yourself.

Educate me.

What factors keep Tivo from seeing large redundancy savings with units 2,3, etc. in the same home using HMO?

I believe the post was directed at me, since posts from an ignored user do not show any text. I also, know that phone1 doesn't just ignore users because he disagrees with them, otherwise I would be ignored since we have disagreed in the past.

Why should anyone bother to try and educate you? You obviously want a second TiVo, but don't want to pay as much for it. Otherwise, you should have read the answer to your question in one of the previous posts.

Why don't you educate us on how the current platform supports this.

When you're ready to talk about actual possibilities, and not just complaining about the cost come back and chat.

Posted by: Beach

"has been pointed out it doesn't today. This was discussed in detail in the other thread about this. Next time, "study up" before beginning a rant."

I didn't find the answer to my question or any detail in the other thread.

"It just doesn't work that way" is not an answer.

I just find it comical you have put the costs on technology.

There is margin in mystery, I find nothing mysterious about sharing program data. You two obviously do.

See you at the price break, any bets on how long <lol>

Posted by: phone1

quote:
Originally posted by mmascari
I also, know that phone1 doesn't just ignore users because he disagrees with them, otherwise I would be ignored since we have disagreed in the past.

You're right, with only 5 names it's a pretty exclusive list. ;) You have to work really hard to earn a membership. :)

Posted by: Beach

Haven't been on the forum since this post but I know my last words were.

"Time will prove this right, I guarantee it!"

Loved getting this email. Glad to see Tivo is getting smarter or more efficient, which ever way you want to look at it.

>>>>>>>>
Letter from the Editor:
I L-O-V-E my job, especially when I get to break great news like this: Starting immediately, every TiVo� service subscriber with two or more TiVo� boxes in the home pays a lower service fee on each additional box. So, instead of paying $12.95 on every box in your home, you'll pay a discounted monthly fee of just $6.95 for each additional box�up to five additional boxes! If you already have two or more boxes with monthly subscription, expect to see the lower fee (we're calling it Multi-Service Discount) on your next billing cycle. (Yay! And you thought we didn't read your e-mails...)
:D

Posted by: psquarednyc

i haven't been to this message board in almost a month, but when i got that email today i HAD to check in to see who got the first "i told you so" in.

i never really understood the ins and outs of the argument that said this couldn't be done, so i didn't bother to get into the argument. i did find it fascinating, though, that the people who said it couldn't be done sounded almost insulted that anyone would suggest it.

it's amazing what a little competition will inspire. i had just gotten done reading an email from scientific atlanta saying that they now have the technology to share dvr programming with a non-dvr cable box in the same house, and the next email i read was telling me that tivo was giving me home media option for free and multiple box discounts.

Posted by: steuert

If you are really interested in getting multiple TiVos at minimum cost, rather than offering long-winded and unsolicited opinions on TiVo's business model, then you can buy a refurbished Series 1 at www.servicedvr.com and use it unsubbed, or you can subscribe to DTV and pay only $5 ea. for extra DVR's (each with two tuners, yet.)

If, on the other hand you only want to tell TiVo how to run its business, then your remarks might better be addressed to the company's officers than to the members of this Forum. Maybe they'll hire you as CEO, since you obviously know more than they do about the best corporate strategy.

Posted by: Hunter Green

No one ever said "it couldn't be done" except the people who were looking for a straw man to cut down. The argument "against", as it were, was that it was not financially sensible for TiVo. Nothing in that precluded the possibility that it would become sensible later; in fact, that possibility was discussed.

The reason it probably wasn't feasible is simple. TiVo wasn't the originator of this data. The entire argument that multiple subscriptions should cost less is predicated on the assumption that those subscriptions cost TiVo less to service, but without knowing what TiVo's business arrangements with Tribune were, or are, there was no way to tell. There were rumors suggesting Tribune was charging TiVo a flat rate per box, regardless of where those boxes were; and if so it only makes sense TiVo would have to charge us the same way.

But even if that wasn't their arrangement with Tribune, the point remained: TiVo wasn't making money, and they can't go from not making money to making money by simply charging less. That's the kind of simplistic, unrealistic thing that led to the Internet Bubble and to it popping.

Whatever the situation was, that was a year ago. Even in the brick-and-mortar world, everything changes in a year. In the tech sector, everything changes twelve times in a year.

For every misguided "I told you so" we could just as quickly say "I told you so" that this was going to happen including the "I told you so" itself along with its misguided straw-man posturing. So what? None of us really know a darned thing about any of it anyway.

Posted by: phone1

And already, we're already seeing posts from those who would seek to abuse it: So can I buy a TiVo for may (sic) parents and pay $6.95 if it's billed to me?