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Enterprise 4/30 "The Cogenitor" Spoilers
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Posted by: ronsch

I've always wanted to do this; be able to start the thread before the show has even been broadcast.

I'm not really sure what to think about this one. Ya gotta love Andreas Katsulas. I recognized the voice immediately, even before the opening credits. Of course they couldn't resist the tacky double ententes with the women.
Many of the plot elements were predictable, although

Spoiler Alert! (highlight to read)
I was sure Archer was going to get them both in trouble due to overconfidence in handling the small ship.

I'll be expecting Enterprise to be making warp 7 by the end of next episode after the technology lessons.
It seems Archer is going to take the prime directive/first contact issues seriously, although we see no evidence in this episode other than his disappointment with Trip. I expected some fallout from Trip's interference but they surprised me with the final result.

Posted by: TeeSee

How did you see it?

Posted by: ronsch

Paramount feeds it to Canada and secondary UPN affiliates on Tuesday afternoon at 4:30 ET on C-Band satellite.

Posted by: Dale Sorel

quote:
Originally posted by TeeSee
How did you see it?

I think Bones jumped through a time portal and changed all of history and then Ronsch had to jump through and...

OK, not really ;)

Posted by: JYoung

Based on the previews and the fact it was written by Beavis and Butthead, I was fully prepared to hate this episode.
It was looking like a Night in Sickbay part II.
Imagine my surprise that this was a serious drama.

(some notes made while watching the show)
ohhhh Andreas Kastulas.......
Life support requirements? Did Archer bother to check if this species needs any special requirements?
ohhhh Archer's an explorer...
The Cogenitor provides an enzyme, didn't I see this in Alien Nation?
Ok, Phlox is funny.
is the Cogenitor a slave?
Is T'Pol jealous of Archer?
92 natural occuring elements? Ooops.......
Hey, Reed's not gay! Although his dialogue was a tad cringe worthy.
Archer can fly the alien ship just be watching?
What right does Tucker have trying to teach it to read?
and is he trying to teach her English?
".....I've done a pretty poor job of setting an example around here." Yes you have Archer.

While I find this episode somewhat predictable and derivative and I saw the suicide coming when Archer received the communication,
this episode was surprisingly good. I'll give B&B points for having the balls to go through with it
and for Archer chewing out Tucker.
I liked the scenes with Archer and the Vessian Captain but that may be due to Andreas Kastulas (and I was flipping through
the B5 Season 2 set earlier)
While somewhat of message episode, at least the sledgehammer technique wasn't used and there were real
consequences this time.
Certainly better than most other episodes. If Berman and Braga would write more episodes likes this,
I'd have far less to criticize.

Grade B

Spoiler Alert! (highlight to read)

although the preview for next week is the Borg episode, and it don't look good as it looks like the crew are actually face to face with the Borg.

Posted by: Worf

Hrm. For once this episode presents the "holier than thou" attitude is not always the correct one.

It's definitely a change from the rest of the episodes where it usually shows the crew as "always right". It's got its fair share of problems, but the general plot was different.

Posted by: Dale Sorel

For me, this was the by far the best Enterprise episode I've seen :up:

Posted by: ronsch

quote:
Originally posted by Dale Sorel
I think Bones jumped through a time portal and changed all of history and then Ronsch had to jump through and...

OK, not really ;)

I've got the time portal in my backyard!:D

Posted by: Family

This was better than just one good episode. This was POTENTIALLY a series turning event. Enterprise is no longer the good ship lollypop blasting through space with everyone lovey dovey. We have conflict. And for once the aliens are right and the naive earth folks have finally made a meaningful rookie mistake. That's one thing this series has needed... rookie mistakes by the humans.

This could possibly create an Enterprise that actually has growing pains. That could turn the series around.

Posted by: jones07

Very good episode. This one got me by surprise. I never saw the suicide coming. AND What an ass chewing Captain Archer give Tucker. whew !!!

I'm giving this one my first *Grade A* ever for an Enterprise episode

Enterprise is right where it should be to hit its stride by the 3rd season.IMO

I can see better things coming ;)

Posted by: jhausmann

quote:
Originally posted by JYoung

".....I've done a pretty poor job of setting an example around here." Yes you have Archer.

Well, if Trip had any balls there would've been some additional dialog on his part:

"Um, let's see, there were these dilithium crystal miners that were getting bullied by Klingons that told you they didn't want your help and you gave it to them anyway. That the kind of example I'm supposed to follow, Captain? And what did you expect the Cogenitor to do, after having had a taste of freedom to have it yanked away by a nincom-poop who holds his crew to a higher standard than he holds himself. Yeah, I get it, Captain, you're the only one that can screw up around here. Drop me off at Earth, or on a ship headed to Earth, at your ealriest convenience. I wont abide a Captain who thinks slavery, in any form, is OK."

The story, imo would've been far more compelling if you replaced Trip with Mayweather AND if the actor protraying Mayweather had any range, outside of cardboard cutup.

Posted by: jkeegan

Great episode. Really liked Archer's response at the end.. Finally got the feeling that it wasn't just going to be "Archer was a fool flying through space, giving good cause for rules that would be followed by the time of Next Generation" (since Kirk never really cared about most of them). No, in fact Archer was pretty strongly against Tripp's actions (and didn't pull a "You shouldn't have done that! Ok, now that I've said that <wink>, good job <smile>")

Posted by: jones07

quote:
Originally posted by jhausmann
Well, if Trip had any balls there would've been some additional dialog on his part:

jhausmann

um.... You sound like a man that never serviced in the military. I was in the navy for 6 years and I had my ass chewed out real good. 'Not as bad as Trip' but close. ;) I would have never responded back to a Superior. Even if I was 100% in the right. The military don't work that way. boss :p

Posted by: edc

If this were a TOS episode, Kirk would've bedded both women, the cogenitor, AND gotten his tunic ripped in a fistfight, all along lecturing them that "BE...ING AD...VANCED means more THAN warp DR...IVE or FAN....CY su...bmarines! It means freedom and respect for ALL sentients!"

:D

Posted by: Rob Helmerichs

I don't know--I like this series more than most people, but the ending of this episode seemd completely phony to me. I didn't think Trip would have acted the way he did throughout the episode, and I didn't think Archer would have responded the way he did. I thought they were going in a very interesting direction, but they never really got there.

Posted by: kiljoy

I loved it. Didn't know it was B&B, but I'll give credit when it's due.

As for Kirk bedding... I wish we'd have seen if that transaction was completed. It would have been more in character, per TOS.

I didn't see the end coming. I figured it would go:

A) Trip screws up relations between the species.
B) Both captains get in trouble.
C) By working together to save the captains, the mutual respect returns.
D) Everyone leaves happy.

It didn't, and it was well-done. I detected no continuity violations, writing was better than average, and the acting was above par (not saying much).

I was cringing when Trip began his escapades. I felt real emotion at the end. In a vacuum, this would be a good episode, but given the truly bad shows before it, you've got to go with an A for this.

Tony

Posted by: tonyoci

Grade "B" from jyoung, now I feel the need to rush home from work and watch it.

T

Posted by: jhausmann

quote:
Originally posted by jones07
jhausmann

um.... You sound like a man that never serviced in the military. I was in the navy for 6 years and I had my ass chewed out real good. 'Not as bad as Trip' but close. ;) I would have never responded back to a Superior. Even if I was 100% in the right. The military don't work that way. boss :p

2 things.

1) as a military brat who is blessed with the ability to sleep wherever/whenever because of growing up on/near military bases (A B52 when it takes off is not a quiet thing and they take off/land at all hours at SAC bases), I've got a fair idea of what is acceptable. As a Navy boot-camp (San Diego-1971) graduate, I've got better than fair idea.

2) Star fleet isn't military.

Posted by: jboehm

Best ep yet. It totally didn't suck. I liked that they showed that there were powerful emotional consequences for there actions. I felt that a real friendship was formed between the 2 captains. In general I like Tucker, he stands on his own as a good actor everyone else need a lot of writing help to be likable.

Posted by: jamesbobo

Good episode, but I had a different take on the suicide. When Archer told Trip that "it" committed suicide, I immediately thought that the aliens killed "it" so that it wouldn't spread its radical ideas to others and used the suicide story to cover it up.

Posted by: Worf

True, but then again, it carries their baby, so by killing it, they'd be killing their offspring as well. And I suspect that offspring is more or less that keeps them alive.

As for interfering, I suspect it boils down to obviousness - the dilithium miners were obviously highly exploited by a race known to do that,. Here we have first contact with a race that's doing something similar, and in more or less being friendly rather than aggressive. Sure the conditions of the congenitors may be awful, but when given a way to do it diplomatically, you do it diplomatically. Especially since this was a first contact with a species not wanting to shoot first, and being extremely open about their technology and technology sharing.

But ah well. It was a good episode - much more enjoyable and something a lot of people can relate to.

Posted by: vman41

quote:
Originally posted by jamesbobo
Good episode, but I had a different take on the suicide. When Archer told Trip that "it" committed suicide, I immediately thought that the aliens killed "it" so that it wouldn't spread its radical ideas to others and used the suicide story to cover it up.

I was left with the feeling that the alien society was dysfunctional. Their medicine was undoubtably as advance as ours so they knew they were opressing the cogenitors. Perhaps congenitors killed themselves often, which is why they were in short supply and had to be rationed.

Posted by: Rob Helmerichs

quote:
Originally posted by Worf
True, but then again, it carries their baby, so by killing it, they'd be killing their offspring as well.

Did they say this? I got the impression that females carried the offspring (that is, after all, what makes females female), that males provided the sperm, and that cogenitors provided an unspecified enzyme in an unspecified manner (although Phlox has pictures).

What they WOULD be killing, however, is the possibility that anybody on that ship is going to reproduce any time soon. With one cogenitor for every 46.5 couples, I would assume that their lives would be incredibly precious, and that killing one would be almost the ultimate crime...

Posted by: jones07

quote:
Originally posted by vman41
I was left with the feeling that the alien society was dysfunctional. Their medicine was undoubtably as advance as ours so they knew they were opressing the cogenitors. Perhaps congenitors killed themselves often, which is why they were in short supply and had to be rationed.

It must be awful to live ones life out as a cogenitor . They are treated less then a pet in that alien society. Past around as needed with nothing to really call their own. They are worst then slaves. Trip did the wrong thing. but for the right reasons.

Posted by: tonyoci

I thought this was a great episode. There was little action yet it held the attention yet it held the attention well. There was great balance between the main story and the two side stories, one mostly serious and one light hearted one, I laughed out loud when Malcolm hit his head. Again, for me, any episode with no Travis or Joshi has a chance.

The end was not all what I expected because they did not chicken out. To say you knew what was coming as soon as they received the call from the captain seems odd since the truth was revealed 15 seconds later. I thought the characters were well developed and deep, and even at the end you were left thinking that Trip would do the same thing again.

Hopefully this makes a turn for the good.

jyoung, most of the time your list of complaints are spot on but this week they just seem like nit picking because you dislike B&B.

I don't think anyone pointed out that this was directed by LeVar Burton and the tone was set perfectly.

T

Posted by: Dale Sorel

quote:
Originally posted by tonyoci
I don't think anyone pointed out that this was directed by LeVar Burton and the tone was set perfectly.

Hey you're right...great job LeVar :up: :up: :up:

Now if I can set up a Wishlist for episodes of Enterprise directed by Mr. Burton :rolleyes:

Posted by: ronsch

quote:
Originally posted by jamesbobo
Good episode, but I had a different take on the suicide. When Archer told Trip that "it" committed suicide, I immediately thought that the aliens killed "it" so that it wouldn't spread its radical ideas to others and used the suicide story to cover it up.

I have no trouble accepting that it was a suicide. Once Trip taught it and showed it what it was missing out on in life there would be no alternative unless the culture was willing to make a sudden radical change and start treating Cogenitors as equals or near equals. It could never go back to being the way it had been.

Posted by: jkeegan

quote:
Originally posted by Medieval Guy
Did they say this? I got the impression that females carried the offspring (that is, after all, what makes females female), that males provided the sperm, and that cogenitors provided an unspecified enzyme in an unspecified manner (although Phlox has pictures).

What they WOULD be killing, however, is the possibility that anybody on that ship is going to reproduce any time soon. With one cogenitor for every 46.5 couples, I would assume that their lives would be incredibly precious, and that killing one would be almost the ultimate crime...

It was definitely the way you remember: no baby was killed, just the ability for people to have babies for a long time. When the congenitor wanted to stay, the parents complained that Archer was robbing them of the ability to have a child (they didn't complain that they were taking a child).

I wonder what percentage of children are cogenitors. Hey, yeah, how does that happen? How can a race be so insensitive to cogenitors if their kid (that they waited so long to have) turned out to be a congenitor itself, that they didn't bother to name? What's up with that?

Posted by: Dale Sorel

quote:
Originally posted by jkeegan
I wonder what percentage of children are cogenitors. Hey, yeah, how does that happen? How can a race be so insensitive to cogenitors if their kid (that they waited so long to have) turned out to be a congenitor itself, that they didn't bother to name? What's up with that?

Yes, think of all the possibilities...

Maybe Enterprise has a little hope after all :)

Posted by: JYoung

quote:
Originally posted by tonyoci

jyoung, most of the time your list of complaints are spot on but this week they just seem like nit picking because you dislike B&B.

I don't think anyone pointed out that this was directed by LeVar Burton and the tone was set perfectly.

:confused: :confused:

I really didn't have real complaints with this episode. I said that it was good, surprisingly good. And while I did predict the suicide when Archer received the communique, I was totally surprised that B&B had the balls to go through with it, which I applaud them for. When I see an episode like this, it does give me some hope for the series.
BTW, good point about Burton's direction. It makes you wonder if he had a hand in rewriting the script.
The real problem is that the characters have been so badly defined in the past that it makes it harder to empathize with them.
Suppose that this episode was done during TNG, with Wesley in the Trip role and Picard coming down on him? It certainly would have had more emotional impact.

Of course, the real test will be if this incident will have ramifications for Archer and Tucker down the road. Will they be more thoughtful in the future? Or will everything be reset next week...

(oh wait, next week is the Borg episode.....)

Posted by: tonyoci

Maybe Enterprises weaknesses are related to the temporal cold war + I do not trust ronsch and his time portal

T

Posted by: Dale Sorel

quote:
Originally posted by JYoung
Suppose that this episode was done during TNG, with Wesley in the Trip role and Picard coming down on him? It certainly would have had more emotional impact.

Like maybe Patrick Stewart is a tad better actor than Scott Bakula ;)

Posted by: jhausmann

quote:
Originally posted by Worf
True, but then again, it carries their baby, so by killing it, they'd be killing their offspring as well. And I suspect that offspring is more or less that keeps them alive.

As for interfering, I suspect it boils down to obviousness - the dilithium miners were obviously highly exploited by a race known to do that,. Here we have first contact with a race that's doing something similar, and in more or less being friendly rather than aggressive. Sure the conditions of the congenitors may be awful, but when given a way to do it diplomatically, you do it diplomatically. Especially since this was a first contact with a species not wanting to shoot first, and being extremely open about their technology and technology sharing.

But ah well. It was a good episode - much more enjoyable and something a lot of people can relate to.

Not much chance for diplomacy when the ship's diplomat is off joy-riding with aliens. And Archer asked the question, "Did she ask for your help" as if that's had any affect on his actions...

Archer should've also been pissed off a T'Pol because, as the person in charge in his absence, she allowed it to happen

Posted by: jhausmann

quote:
Originally posted by Dale Sorel
Like maybe Patrick Stewart is a tad better actor than Scott Bakula ;)

William Shatner is a tad better than Bakula, Stewart is in another quadrant...