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Buffy 7x19 "Empty Places" (Spoilers!)
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Posted by: TiVoLance

What a depressing episode. Thank goodness for Spike and Andrew. Buffy turning hardcore and everyone rebeling was different. When Dawn asked Buffy to leave the house I was shocked. Ms. Pure Energy Not really her sister asking her to leave the house. Also shocking was Faith's reaction to Buffy hitting her. Faith has grown alot as a character. Not one of my favorite episodes.

PS Love Andrew's helmet.

Following Caleb's attack, Xander is now blind in one eye. Buffy takes all the guilt and again encounters Caleb at the abandoned school. Faith presses her fun-loving nature on the potentials and takes them all to the Bronze, which leads to an argument between Faith and Buffy, culminating in forcing the potentials to choose between their two leaders, but because of Buffy's recent decisions and behavior, they all side with Faith. Meanwhile, Spike and Andrew look into an abandoned mission and discover a plaque which reads: 'It is for her alone to wield'.

Posted by: David Platt

Best line of the entire season:

Xander: "I'm trying to see your point here, but I guess it's somewhere to my left." :up:

Glad to see others finally calling Buffy on her behavior for the last half of the season.

Posted by: Rob Helmerichs

I note again that Caleb didn't (couldn't?) attack Buffy until she had attacked him...

Posted by: Bryanmc

quote:
Originally posted by Medieval Guy
I note again that Caleb didn't (couldn't?) attack Buffy until she had attacked him...

I still say this is too ambiguous.

He threw the first punch last time (I don't remember about tonight) all she did was show up and start talking big to him.

Seems like if it's true that he can't attack without provocation that it's not very clear.

Posted by: Rob Helmerichs

We shall see. After all, she DID lead an army into his house and started breaking things and people...in most societies, that is grounds for self-defense. She may not have thrown a punch directly at him, but she most certainly did attack him. And in light of that, I think the fact that tonight he waited until after she attacked him, despite his being obviously chomping at the bit to get her, is significant.

Considering Buffy getting all attacky lately, it would be interesting if the key to defeating Caleb will be NOT attacking him...

Posted by: Lori

God, I hate Anya so much at this point. She must die.

Posted by: TiVoLance

Well I sure hope so because Buffy is getting her butt kicked. No one mentioned the 'It is for her alone to wield' in the church. Any thoughts? I personally have no idea to what this refers. Maybe some key to defeating the First.

Posted by: LoadStar

Ok, I know to what that refers, but that's because I read the spoilers, so I'll shut up. (Man, I'm biting my tongue so hard I taste blood. I hate this knowing and not telling. Grr. Argh.)

Was this episode supposed to make us side with Buffy, side with the pack, or just split the viewing audience in half leaving some with Buffy and some with the pack? I can't tell.

I, for one, am with the pack on this one. Brilliant plan, Buffy, we got our butts whooped last time - you got your butt whooped an additional time in the school - and you still want to go BACK there? What are you, SLOW? Unless you get a LOT better idea about how to defeat the guy, going back there was not the best suggestion to make in the world.

Heh - during that scene, I wisecracked "All in favor of going back, say eye - errm, sorry Xander." Yes, I know, "aye" - pun very much intended. It got me evil looks from the others watching here too.

I also think that going to the Bronze - running into the cops there notwithstanding - was also a good idea. It's gonna get pretty grim in a bit, may as well have one night of fun and freedom before that. I mean, what else were they going to do, sit around the house (that, I might add, still only has 1 bathroom for the 30-odd female potentials... the math of that just doesn't add up - but I digress...) and rehash the same stuff over and over again?

The motorcycle scene - and that alone - was the one time I actually liked Andrew, and I think it was mostly because of Spike. The onion bit was hilarious... "and if you tell anyone about this, I'll bite you." I did like the "can't is a four letter word. Hi, I'm Andrew, and I'll be your 'bad cop' this evening." That was as far as my like of Andrew went. It went out the window with Andrew's next line.

Funny how when Buffy gets a sore throat (as she obviously had in tonight's episode) the First in Buffy form also gets the same sore throat... ;)

The only thing that in my mind seemed hokey and forced was the Sunnydale evacuation. Compared to previous apocalypses (is that the right plural of apocalypse?) this one's a piece of cake... I mean, the first evil has just been messing with the Scooby gang and the potentials, at least as far as we've seen. Previous apocalypses involved a giant snake, a giant evil temple rising out of a hilltop, and a giant rift in space/time opening above the city... and those weren't enough to get the people in the city to evacuate, but this was? Like I said, it just seems forced to me.

Posted by: JYoung

The season 7 bashers are going to have a field day with this episode, but Buffy needed to be called on her bad decisions.
Now but the question is, is this what the First wanted? Even to when it told Dawn that Buffy wouldn't be there for her?
Very depressing episode (especially Willow in Xander's hospital room) but darned interesting......

(but I did love Faith's line about telling Anya how she had Xander first)

Posted by: ransom456

Buffy needed to be taken to task for some of her recent decisions, but I thought the pack went a bit far. I was really left not wanting to side with any of them. In particular, I have a hard time believing the old school Scoobies would go along with Faith as the leader. Has Xander completely forgotten?

Posted by: buffan

Depressing? Yes.

But I personally found this to be the best written episode of what I think has been a very good season. Not a lot of action, but I was more engrossed than I have been all year.

Andrew's notes on the board were great and him playing "bad cop" was ok until they pushed it one line too far and just went over the top.

I think that they could have stretched this episode easily another 60 minutes. Other than the Loadstar-mentioned Sunndydale evacuation, my only significant complaint is that it sure seems that the Scoobies dumped Buffy kind of abruptly. Maybe it could have been done better if spread out over a couple of episodes. It's fairly easy to see why the Scoobies were down on Buffy, but it's a lot harder to see them switching to Faith so quickly. She hasn't proved herself THAT much yet.

Posted by: LoadStar

Well, it wasn't so much that they switched to Faith - it was kind of a ball that started rolling that they couldn't quite stop even if they had wanted to. Buffy was making an idiot of herself, they weren't willing to follow, but they recognized they still were in need of a leader. They happened to have another slayer convenient, so it was more a "lesser of two evils" situation - the slayer we don't know much about or the slayer we do know a lot about and aren't liking all too much.

But, like a lot of things this season, the latter episodes could have been spread out through the season, and the earlier episodes with the First back and forth probably could have been tightened up to a lot shorter arc.

Posted by: Rob Helmerichs

I'm not sure what you mean about the evacuation--people in town have been going nuts for weeks now. Granted, it's mostly been happening off-camera, while the on-screen action has taken place at the house, but they've certainly been talking about it enough.

On the other hand, I do think they might have pushed the turning on Buffy thing too far too fast. I don't think her decisions have been that bad up until now; granted, going after Caleb turned out badly, but it seemed like a good idea at the time. But her new plan makes no real sense, and seems to be just a plot device to further isolate her. I think they could have set that one up a lot better, and still gotten to the same place without everything seeming so forced.

What really ruined the episode for me, though, was the inscription on the wall. It was half Latin, half Greek, and the Greek part looked phony to me. :D

Posted by: MeanGreen09

I was blown away when Dawnie ordered Buffy to leave, but cheered when she told the b$%ch potential to "Shut up!".

Once again, this episode confirmed my feelings that Xander is the best character in the show. Buffy wasn't completely isolated until he sided against her.

Last thought: I'll never be able to eat another "Bloomin' Onion" without thinking about Spike and Andrew!

Posted by: doom1701

quote:
Originally posted by TiVoLance
Well I sure hope so because Buffy is getting her butt kicked. No one mentioned the 'It is for her alone to wield' in the church. Any thoughts? I personally have no idea to what this refers. Maybe some key to defeating the First.

I understand now. I haven't even seen the episode all the way through, but I understand. Oddly enough, it all came in a dream last night.

(Note: No real spoilers are in here--just wild speculation that might be correct. So read at your own risk.)

Spoiler Alert! (highlight to read)

The giant eye earlier in the season told us that everything was kinda out of whack because of the two slayers--or at least that's how we interpretted it. Well, why is there a slayer in the first place? It's the power's way of balancing things out. When that first Vampire is born when a departing demon drinks the blood of a human or something like that, we get the slayer. Or is it?

If the first was here, why did the powers wait to give us the slayer until Vampires started wandering the earth? Why not instead give us the slayer to balance things out against the First?

Interesting sidebar about the First. It always has to work through others. It's power isn't evil strength, it's simply evil. It's powers are the powers of persuasion. The powers of coersion. The powers of seduction. The powers to make people physically stronger than it do it's bidding. Sound like a typical gender stereotype you've ever heard?

In the ultimate ironic matchup, the powers take the "weaker" sex (not trying to imply that it's true--it's just a stereotype), the sex that has the greater ability to persuade and seduce, and gives one member of that sex super strength. The First, as a sole being, has no real physical ability. To counterbalance that, a single girl has ultimate physical ability.

'It is for her alone to wield' Of course it is. The first knows that it isn't to have it's own super duper hero to do it's physical work. The First has it's evilness, while only the slayer has the power. With this balance, the two can never truly eradicate each other.

Now there are two slayers. The balance is upset again, this time with good tipping the scales. The Powers must preserve balance. To do this, they must give the First something. That something is Caleb. Why should he be afraid of the saying in the church? Because it is contrary to his very being. He's a slayer, or at least has the powers of the slayer. But if 'It is for her alone to wield', then his power and his existence is contrary to that.

A couple of people have suggested that the secret to beating Caleb is not fighting him--I'd say that's right, to a point. I don't think there's anything that really prevents Caleb from making the first blow. It simply isn't his nature, or the nature of "his boss". Wait till the time is right.

The secret to beating Caleb has nothing to do with Caleb. Why? Because balance would have to be restored. Another "Caleb" would rise, just as another slayer would rise if the current one were killed. The secret to beating Caleb is to restore order. The world must have one Evil, and one Good.

So how about defeating the First? Can't do it. Not only can you not defeat a non-coporeal entity, but defeating the first would remove the balance. The First must remain, or else Good cannot remain either. Defeat the first, and the Slayer lineage disappears.

Posted by: Chris Roberts

Caleb made some comment to Buffy about "how they always try to fight back". I forget the exact words he used, but his tone of voice and line made me think that if they don't fight back he'd be out of luck.

Its good to see how all the speeches and orders Buffy has been giving all season (which many people complained about) actually had an overall purpose. This isn't Star Trek people. BuffyTVS uses multiple episodes/seasons to build up to something. Buffy has been turning more and more into Capt. Bligh all season. Her friends were right to kick her out because she's not currently the best person for leadership.

I really liked Faith in this episode, especially when she revealed that she knew all the girls names and pointed out that Buffy never bothered to learn them. And then when she asked Buffy "Can you follow?" it was very well written.

Posted by: Rob Helmerichs

quote:
Originally posted by Chris Roberts
Its good to see how all the speeches and orders Buffy has been giving all season (which many people complained about) actually had an overall purpose. This isn't Star Trek people. BuffyTVS uses multiple episodes/seasons to build up to something. Buffy has been turning more and more into Capt. Bligh all season. Her friends were right to kick her out because she's not currently the best person for leadership.

I agree in principle. I just think that, while they've certainly been building towards this, they made the final leap far too abruptly.

But then, I've been pleased with this season all along. It will be interesting to A) wait until it's over, and everything has fallen into place; and B) watch it all sequentially on DVD, without the annoying month-long gaps. I have a hunch that under those conditions, the whole season will flow much more nicely than it has with the spotty scheduling and not knowing where it's going.

Posted by: BeanMeScot

quote:
Originally posted by TiVoLance
Well I sure hope so because Buffy is getting her butt kicked. No one mentioned the 'It is for her alone to wield' in the church. Any thoughts? I personally have no idea to what this refers. Maybe some key to defeating the First.

I think I know what this is just from seeing the previews they have been showing for the "Final 4 Episodes" of Buffy. 'Nuf said. You will find it if you look.

This isolation of Buffy is so unlike her. The Scoobies always do a lot of research on a Big Bad that they are having problems with. This time, they get some good leads and she ignores them in favor of another suicide mission? Very un-Buffy like.

Posted by: JimSpence

quote:
Maybe some key to defeating the First.

KEY?

Posted by: sschwart

My TiVo froze sometime between Monday night and Tuesday morning, and I didn't find out until I got home Tuesday night, so it didn't record Buffy (or half of 24 or smallville for that matter). Anyone able to drop me a tape of it? PM me...

-Steve

Posted by: KLB

For some reason the "rebellion" didn't work for me.....

Sure they didn't want to go back but it didn't feel like that was the reason and I just don't buy that everyone in the room was opposed to Buffy.

When she came in and announced that she figured it out and that they had to attack his power center... she didn't sound like she was ranting. She sounded like she had all the other times she had a plan.

I think either they should have had her be a little more "insane" when she suggested it or be a little more "Caleb gave me the answer.." in a way that made it more apparent it was a major trap.

But I don't buy that EVERYONE in the room was against her.

Posted by: JimSpence

Let's see. That inscription was found in a mission. Dawn was made by monks. She was the Key to opening a portal to all demon dimensions.

Not really a spoiler, just speculation.

Spoiler Alert! (highlight to read)
Could it be that she is also the key to closing the Hellmouth?

Posted by: Rob Helmerichs

I don't see any way that Dawn's former key-ness will play a role in this. She WAS the key. That situation was very specific, and is now past. It ain't Dawn.

Posted by: Graymalkin

When Caleb was talking to the First, he mentioned that Buffy was all set up to fall into their trap (so to speak). My question is -- did the Scoobs mess that up by rebelling against Buffy's proposed head-on assault, or was splitting her from the Scoobs the trap?

We shall see.

Posted by: murgatroyd

I wasn't paying as much attention as I should have been -- working on the computer and watching B. at the same time -- but I thought that Caleb wanted Buffy to do the rush-off-and-attack plan, but they've spoiled that now because of the Mutiny.

Anyway, we'll see.

Jan

Posted by: flammpanzer

Earlier in this thread the reference was once again made that Buffys mom was a form of the first. I don't think so as she has done nothing but appear supportive every time she appears. Also the first never takes her form,and you would think that form would have appeared to Spike at least once when he was held prisoner. How many people think she is part of the first's repertoire? Good episode though.

Posted by: Rob Helmerichs

But Mommy-Morphy WASN'T being supportive...she was driving a wedge between Buffy and her pals.

And Jan, you have a point, and I thought the same thing--but then again, Morphy has been trying to drive a wedge between Buffy and her pals all season; either its plans are working against each other, or something else is going on that we haven't figured out yet...

Posted by: Bryanmc

quote:
Originally posted by Medieval Guy
But Mommy-Morphy WASN'T being supportive...she was driving a wedge between Buffy and her pals.

What has she said exactly?

Didn't she tell Dawn that Buffy wouldn't be there for her? Seems like that's coming to pass.

What else has she said?

Posted by: DanT

I'm still not certain about one aspect that I haven't seen mentioned in any of the past 3(?) episode threads. When Caleb stabbed the potential in his truck, he said the message ("I have something of hers.") was for the "one, true Slayer". Everyone's assumed that he meant Buffy, but in my mind that would be Faith.

On the other hand, it may have just been a ruse to get Buffy to attack at the vineyard, and he doesn't really have anything of either Slayer's at all.

Posted by: Attack

quote:
Originally posted by DanT
I'm still not certain about one aspect that I haven't seen mentioned in any of the past 3(?) episode threads. When Caleb stabbed the potential in his truck, he said the message ("I have something of hers.") was for the "one, true Slayer". Everyone's assumed that he meant Buffy, but in my mind that would be Faith.

On the other hand, it may have just been a ruse to get Buffy to attack at the vineyard, and he doesn't really have anything of either Slayer's at all.

He also said something like "There is a car behind us the message is not for them" Faith was in that car, so I don't think the message was for her.

Posted by: rexdart

I hesitate to start casting literary criticism considering the fact that I can barely write a check. But it was stupid.

The episode? No. I was fine with the episode. I am in full end of series mode and will love these last episodes if Alf shows up as the secret weapon to defeat the First.

I am talking about the departure. Stupid. It just made no sense to me. "When the time comes, Buffy won't choose you". What? Looks like Dawn isn't choosing Buffy to me. I would have been a little ok if Buffy stormed out..."Fine, stay here and wait to die, I know what needs to be done, if I cannot find anyone to help, I will do it myself."

More likely for me would have been something a little more heartfelt from what was seeming like a slightly humbled Buffy. Perhaps..."I can't stay here if I don't feel all of you are behind me 100%, I'm sorry." Then you get the same conversation with Faith outside and I don't bitch. :D

Not getting much in the way of an insightful vibe for what's going to happen.

Seems obvious enough that whatever is in that church is a tool (not ready to say weapon, that seems too easy) for use against the First or Caleb. I imagine the question will be them getting it back to Sunnydale.

Why I am wondering about Spike and Andrew getting back? Well, I can't believe they chose Gilroy out of a hat. Anyone from there or who has visited there knows what Gilroy, CA is the capital of . I just have to believe this is going to come into play. Andrew may get his redemption yet, finally the hero.

By the way, is that the same football helmet Dawn wore on the bike when Spike was taking care of her? The scene seemed to intentionally try and capture the image of Dawn on the back of the motorcycle (season 5, early 6?)

Posted by: rexdart

One more thing I couldn't help but wonder. As we see, Caleb and the First are working on a little trap. We are all wondering which it might have been, goading her into another assault or splitting her from her friends.

Whichever, it seems they have had an active role in bringing it to fruition.

Let's assume its the splitting possiblity. What are the chances that someone in that room was not who they appeared to be. This couldn't just be random SIT number 22. It would have to be somebody important and who was affecting the emotional "tide" of the moment by advocating opposition to Buffy (or at least undermining her authority).

"You said you had something of mine"

"I do now"

Who wasn't at the vinyard the night of the assault?

Hmmm

Posted by: LoadStar

Well, I thought about Joyce-vision's statement during this episode too. It might be possible that it's still to be fulfilled in a later episode, or it could have been the First trying to get to Dawn. It's hard to say. All I know is it definitely hasn't referred to anything that has happened so far this season. And at this point, it's STILL hard to say whether that was actually Joyce or whether it was the First in that scene from "Conversations..." I guess we'll just have to watch the next few episodes and find out if anything gets revealed.

Posted by: Philosofy

Possible Angel tie in spoiler:

Spoiler Alert! (highlight to read)
Anyone else here think Lila is a manifestation of the first?

Posted by: Rob Helmerichs

quote:
Originally posted by Philosofy
Possible Angel tie in spoiler:

Spoiler Alert! (highlight to read)
Anyone else here think Lila is a manifestation of the first?

Nope.

I still say there is no connection whatsoever between the apocalypses of the two shows.

Posted by: MeanGreen09

quote:
Originally posted by Philosofy
Possible Angel tie in spoiler:

Spoiler Alert! (highlight to read)
Anyone else here think Lila is a manifestation of the first?

Just read this after my post in the Angel thread. It was definately my first impression. I have basically agreed with MG for most of the season, but now I have a seed of doubt.

Posted by: Chris Roberts

Just wanted to post a quick kudos to Faith for taking that drink away from the 15 year old girl. The irony of her being the first person on the show with the morals to do that is great.

Posted by: dcheesi

quote:
Originally posted by rexdart
Who wasn't at the vinyard the night of the assault?

Hmmm

Yeah, but I think Kennedy might have noticed if she couldn't be touched... ;)

Posted by: Philosofy

Giles wasn't there either, IIRC.

Posted by: Chris Roberts

You would think by now that they'd have made a rule where everyone in the house has to shake someone's hand at least once a day or something. That would make it much more difficult for the First to imitate one of them inside again.

What were the exact words of the brain-in-a-cage that Giles and Anya talked to?

Also, I'm not ruling out Dawn's being the key coming into play this season. Its been brought up several times already. During Giles conversation with Buffy she said she wouldn't sacrifice herself for Dawn again. And Joyce (if its her) told Dawn that Buffy wouldn't choose her in the end. This could be leading towards Dawn needing to sacrifice herself at some point. And we know Dawn is the type to do so since she was willing to commit suicide in "Him". Plus the way they've shown Dawn this season wanting to be more a part of what's going on and the fact that they've never really redeemed her character to the fans since she showed up. If she jumps into the hellmouth to save the world with little or no whining then Dawn will have changed several opinions about her. Admittedly this is a stretch, but I'm just not ruling out the possibility based on the way they seem to be leading Dawn's character towards something this season but its unclear as to what.

Posted by: tms317

Just a thought that's been bothering me and some of my fellow Buffy-ites. Someone earlier in this thread mentioned that, in their mind, Faith is the Real Slayer. I have to agree. The whole theory behind the Slayer line is that there is only one and when that one dies, a new one is called.

So, when Buffy died the first time, Kendra was called. When Kendra died, Faith was called. (therefore, Faith is really the Slayer).

Confirmation of this fact is that, when Buffy died the second time, no new slayer was called. Most likely because, for purposes of the Slayer line, Buffy is already dead.

So when that big nasty eye said that all this "Firsty evil" was because of Buffy, maybe it is because Buffy was never meant to come back (the first time or the second time). Again, i think this was implied earlier in the thread, but if the whole idea here to restore the order of things, Buffy would have to die and stay dead to get rid of the first (but i've read on some spoiler sites that she doesn't die...)

I'm hoping this seeming plot-flaw is corrected in the finale.

Posted by: Philosofy

IIRC, the big brain said that the first is back due to something the slayer did. Perhaps it didn't mean Buffy coming back from the dead, but Faith being a murderer. Of course, Caleb specifically mentioned that his message was for the true slayer, and not the one in the car behind them.

Posted by: tms317

Philsofy, can you offer any explanation for why Buffy would be the true slayer??? If that were true, why would Faith have even been called when Kendra died. Buffy was already back so there would be no reason to call a new one. it just never made sense to me and I really hope that the show does not end with this just hanging out there...

Also, don't you think that Faith (and not Buffy) would have to die in order to call any of the Potentials?

Posted by: dcheesi

I had major issues with this episode. For an important arc episode, it seemed surprisingly poorly written.

First, I felt the evacuation was forced. For one thing, things have been weird for weeks; even if people were leaving town, they wouldn't all leave at the exact same time unless there was a specific trigger event. The people walking were the worst; what are they going to do, walk to the next state? If they were just grabbbing stuff in preparation for leaving, then they wouldn't all be walking in the same direction; they'd be heading for their homes or vehicles, all in different locations.

The big scene at the end seemed wrong, too. Not because the scoobs deserted her; that was entirely appropriate under the cicrumstances. For me it was Buffy who seemed off; I just don't believe that she would act like that. First of all, the idea to go back is so incredibly stupid that I can't believe she'd even suggest it. Second, it's very unlike her not to listen to the scoobs' objections. And in the end she acted like some power-mad dictator, rather than a girl who's always chafed under the pressure of leadership.

Oh, and re: the cops, wasn't the seal's violence-inducing power supposed to be shut off now? That whole thing didnt't make sense, IMHO. The FE could have messed with them by talking to them, but there's no way they all would have gone psycho the same way.

Posted by: Chris Roberts

Buffy is considered the "true Slayer" because the show is named after her. LOL

Seriously though it could be simply because she was chosen first. She's the elder Slayer.

Posted by: Rob Helmerichs

Back when Kendra and Faith were still fresh in people's minds, and everybody was theorizing about what would happen if Faith died, Joss Whedon (who apparently felt that the Slayer getting called thing had gotten out of hand) said that Buffy was the Slayer, period. So, that's why she's the True Slayer--because Joss said so.

(And I assume the reason a new slayer wasn't called when Buffy died--again--was because Faith was still around.)

Posted by: DrStrange

quote:
Originally posted by Medieval Guy
(And I assume the reason a new slayer wasn't called when Buffy died--again--was because Faith was still around.)

If that were the reason then Faith wouldn't have been activated since Buffy was still around when Kendra was killed. Having an extra slayer already active when one is killed doesn't seem to keep a new one from being activated.

Posted by: Philosofy

I think we are all agreed that Faith needs to die for another slayer to be activated. Either that, or Buffy's death (the last one) caused some kind of Rift, and Caleb was called as an anti-slayer. Since men are naturally stronger than women, it would stand to reason that a male slayer is stronger than a female slayer.

Posted by: doom1701

quote:
Originally posted by Philosofy
I think we are all agreed that Faith needs to die for another slayer to be activated. Either that, or Buffy's death (the last one) caused some kind of Rift, and Caleb was called as an anti-slayer. Since men are naturally stronger than women, it would stand to reason that a male slayer is stronger than a female slayer.

Actually, we know Caleb has been around for a few years (although no specifics)--there's nothing to say that Caleb wasn't called as the "anti-slayer" when Buffy first died and came back (Season 1).

The First was in one earlier episode, wasn't it? Are there any details from that episode (if it was after season 1) that there might have been things like this a-brewing?

Posted by: Freki

The earlier episode the First appeared in was Amends, from season 3. It's goal at that time was to manipulate Angel into committing suicide, and it nearly succeeded. It also taked credit for bringing Angel back from hell, and I don't know why it would bring him back and then try to get him to kill himself. It's not one of my favorite episodes. I don't recall anything about the slayer line being mentioned.

Posted by: JimSpence

quote:
Also, I'm not ruling out Dawn's being the key coming into play this season.

Chris Roberts; I think you and I are they only ones here that think that Dawn being the Key will somehow be used to save the day.

The Key power within her wasn't used in the way it was expected. And, when was it said that she wasn't the Key anymore? I think the key just opens a different "door" now.

Since, I'm spoiler free, I don't have the insider information. And, a question to those who do read spoilers. Have all of the spoilers come true? Or is Joss messing around with leaking incorrect spoiler info?

Let the flaming begin.:cool:

Posted by: Philosofy

I also don't consider Dawn a normal person: she is the manifestation of the Key, whatever that is, and that will play a part, IMHO.

Posted by: voripteth

quote:
Originally posted by Philosofy
I also don't consider Dawn a normal person

I have to agree since her chest seems to constant grow and shrink from episode to episode! :eek: