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Angel "Peace Out" (4/30) Spoilerific!
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Posted by: Rob Helmerichs

Well, looks like Connor was indeed cured--and doesn't care.

(Oops, now it seems he never needed to be cured in the first place...)

Posted by: Kylep

DOH, why did I open this and read it. I'm such a dumb-arse!

I get off work in 10 minutes to go watch it... bah! :)

Posted by: Rob Helmerichs

Now that it's over, I'm slightly let down. This has been a fantastic season, but the way Angel finally disposed of Jasmine was, well, abrupt. (The same thing happened in Buffy this week; the big turn in people's attitude towards B was also abrupt.)

So I guess this season is no longer a 10. Now, it's just a 9.7. :D

And next week looks very, very interesting!

Posted by: TiVoLance

Wow can't wait for next week. I thought the way Jasmine was killed was lame. and WHERE is Cordie in this picture? Angel has been great this season I hope it gets renewed.

Posted by: TiVaholic

I thought it was already renewed... (Altho I didn't read the thread because it said spoilers)

Posted by: Rob Helmerichs

May 15 is the announcement date for next season, although everybody's talking like it's gonna happen.

Posted by: TiVoLance

Oh ya and why didn't we have to kill Conner and Cordie to kill Jasmine. I was really hoping that was the way the plot was leading. Time to move on :D

Posted by: NJChris

I liked how Jasmine was saying all she wanted was everyone to love each other... and a temple would be nice. heheh

Posted by: lachacg

quote:
Originally posted by TiVoLance
I thought the way Jasmine was killed was lame.

I don't think the death was that lame. Once you find out your enemy's weakness, all you have to do is use it to destroy them. Jasmine herself said that her father and mother tied her to this world. Conner (or Cordie) were always the key, they were never used, because no one knew.

The challenge was the discovery of the weakness, and the willingness to use it. The fact that the action of using it was over in a few seconds is not the thrust of the plot, or what was intended to grab you (in my opinion). The point was what it took to get there.

If I actually cared about Conner's character and his soul searching, it would have been better.

I think if Angel was forced to kill either Cordie or Conner to sever Jasmine's ties, it would have been more in line with the tortured soul of the main character, but they already played that card when Angel went to kill Cordie before Jasmine's birth. That would have been too obvious.

I, being spoiler free, was blown away by the ending...

Posted by: LoadStar

Interesting. So the speculation was indeed correct - the cure never worked on Connor because he didn't need the cure - he saw Jasmine as she really was, and he still followed her.

Wow, is the kid a total psychopath.

Someone needs to tip Angel off - you can't redeem everyone. Some people - Jasmine, for one - you just shouldn't even bother trying. That was the part that stretched my credibility, when he was trying to reach out and reform her... I mean, come on, she's an evil maggoty beast from another dimension, please.

I for one can't wait for next week to see how exactly they explain Lilah coming back from the dead (and a rather notable lack of a head). I'm not complaining, mind you, she was a cool character in an evil sadistic sort of way, but still mysterious. It'd be kind of cool if they got Lindsey back too.

I think they should keep Charisma on as a recurring character, as "Cordelia In Coma." I was thinking her acting job in tonight's episode was one of her best performances in a while! ;) (I kid, because I love... she can also star as "Cordelia's Body" - ok, I'll stop...)

The only character who _really_ needs to go away at this point is Connor. He needs to die a painful horrible death. Either that, or just lock him up in Kortoth (sp?), the hell dimension he grew up in. Either way, as long as he's out of the way.

Posted by: buffan

Now that I think back on it, the Lilah return shouldn't have been a major surprise to me. After all, Stephanie Romanov was listed as a guest star at the beginning of the show. I do wonder why they ruined the surprise that way (for people smarter than me, of course)?

But until they showed her, I was still sitting there wondering...who was at the door? Baby Connor (please, no). Dead Cordelia? Awake Cordelia? And for a moment, I mistook Lilah's voice for Darla.

But, I like the Lilah character, so I'm glad she's at least temporarily back.

As usual, I have to agree with MG. We agreed in the Buffy thread about abrupt changes, and I also thought that the end of Jasmine was too quick. I was expecting a big buildup to a grand finale next week and was surprised to have the *main* part of the story arc end this week. It does make sense, I suppose. ME should be able to do a good job next week of putting the show at a logical conclusion if it's canceled and at the same time positioning it for something very interesting next season if it returns (insert high hopes here).

Posted by: JYoung

Anyone one catch Jasmine's Firefly reference? :D

One thing about ME though, they aren't afraid to take chances although having Angel rematerialize back in the Hyperion lobby was a tad convienent.
Good wrap to the Jasmine storyline but still a number of unanswered questions.
Was Connor able to kill Jasmine because he was her father or because he caught her off guard?
Was Jasmine actually a power? Was she a fallen power or was she actually an agent of evil?
What was she really? (Note that she had Caleb stength)

Still, Angel chalks up another very good episode...

Posted by: lordargent

This episode puts Jasmine into a new light for me.

When her true form was revealed to the world, she seemd more angry at Angel over the people that would die rather than loosing her free food. It sort of leads me to believe that she was trying to accomplish some good, even if it was done in a very misguided way. (To put things in a DnD sense, she is Chaotic Good.)

As for the people that she was 'eating'. It seems more like they were just getting absorbed, almost as if she needed their bodies in order to maintain her power in this realm. I don't recall anyone screaming, what if their 'absorption' brought a sort of rapture to them.

Could it be that Jasmine just does not like to see pain? And so sought to eliminate it from the world? Note her comment when Connor was smacking Wes? She said something like 'I don't want to see that'.

Then again, there is the whole blocking out the sun and raining fire thing. But maybe that was some sort of requirement to set things in place for her birth. She's big on that kill a few to save many thing.

Posted by: lordargent

Ohh, and what is the possibility of Jasmine re-entering Cordys body? Because, you know, I saw a human body fall to the ground, but none of the bright lights that normally happen when her true form is shown.

Or am I too suspicious?

Posted by: MeanGreen09

Have we already ruled out the possibility that Lilah is The First?

Just a thought...

If she is back from the dead, Wolfram & Hart sure have great life insurance. :D

Posted by: Rob Helmerichs

I've said it beforew, and I'm even more convinced now--there is no connection whatsoever between the two shows' apocalypses.

And while I'm a big fan of judging Connor harshly, he did have a very, very good point--he grew up in a place where appearence doesn't matter. He's the only one who WASN'T judging Jasmine just because she's ugly. And even aside from her mind control, her agenda was not entirely without merit...

Posted by: sschwart

I liked this episode. Yeah, the end of Jasmine was sudden, but the ending of the Beast was sudden, and the ending of a lot of the bad guys are often quick. With everything that happened, I'm convinced that Jasmine was evil, but that bit at the end, about eliminating world peace was rather disturbing... Of course, Lilah's appearance in general was too... But cool :)

-Steve

Posted by: LoadStar

By the way - what was with Gunn quoting GalaxyQuest, of all things? "Never give up... never surrender." I was laughing my butt off at that one. Wouldn't have pegged Gunn as a Tim Allen fan. :)

Posted by: billypritchard

Chalk me up to the somewhat disappointed crowd. Overall, I thought the episdoe was enjoyable, but it just felt, I don't know, hollow. How many times have we seen Angel go to some demonic location on a mission (always complete with torches on the wall), face some hideous monster, beat them up, and then walk out with what he needs. It was just a bit too easy. And then what was up with the gang's big revelation about Cordelia being so important, and nothing came of it?

An 8.5 Angel ep is still better than most crap of course...

And on the Galaxy Quest quote, was anyone else waiting for Lorne to reply "By Grabthar's Hammer..."

Posted by: Rob Helmerichs

quote:
Originally posted by sschwart
I liked this episode. Yeah, the end of Jasmine was sudden, but the ending of the Beast was sudden, and the ending of a lot of the bad guys are often quick.

Yes, but to wrap up an entire season's plotlines with "Bang, you're dead" doesn't seem right. At least, I don't think they set it up so that would be appropriate. It was like they packed 30% of the season into one episode.

Posted by: ransom456

Since the status quo has been changing so quickly all season, I wasn't too bothered by the suddenness of Jasmine's defeat. But I would have liked to see more of Angel's battle on bug world. In particular, how did he know that the keeper would be able to deliver his line after being decapitated?

I like to picture Angel standing in the throng of worshippers, ineffectually shaking the head and trying to get it to talk.

Posted by: lachacg

quote:
Originally posted by LoadStar

I for one can't wait for next week to see how exactly they explain Lilah coming back from the dead (and a rather notable lack of a head).

I noticed that she WAS wearing a scarf. I assume that the head has been re-attached.

And one would think she's probably not too fond Wesley for that little love mark.

Posted by: mitkraft

Did Everybody catch the "Twilight Zone" reference? When Gunn said "It's 'To Serve Man' all over again"?

I loved that! If you've never seen this episode of the original "Twilight Zone" seek it out! Its one of the best ever and its pertinence here is great.

Just my two cents....Oh, plus I'm not so sure about Lilah not being the first, but that would be too easy wouldn't it?

Mitkraft

Posted by: Mike20878

quote:
Originally posted by JYoung
Anyone one catch Jasmine's Firefly reference? :D

No, what was the reference?

Mike

Posted by: JYoung

Jasmine called for her assistant, Patience.
Patience was the name of the woman that Malcolm Reynolds had to deal with on Whitefall in Serenity.

Posted by: generalpatton71

I agree I think it's the first. They have to work something out for angel to go to Sunnydale. Personally I'm just glad this entire Jasmine thing is over.

Posted by: lachacg

quote:
Originally posted by generalpatton71
I agree I think it's the first. They have to work something out for angel to go to Sunnydale.

Not me. For those who didn't watch the scenes for "next week on angel" skip this potential spoiler and speculation from the scenes:

Spoiler Alert! (highlight to read)

It was pretty obvious to me that Lilah was in a high-rise office and that Angel and friends were also in said office building. It looks like a rebuilt Wolfram and Hart. We all know that this isn't the first time a dead W&H employee shows up still working for the company.

I have a feeling that Angel may have done W&H's dirty work for them by eliminating Jasmine. After all, even Jasmine said that we all know what side Angel ended up on during the apocolypse. I feel that this is the thrust of next week's episode. Pure speculation based on the scenes.

Lilah is not the first.

Posted by: johnjohn

quote:
Originally posted by lordargent

(To put things in a DnD sense, ...

Man, it would be terrific if we could not do that.

Posted by: doom1701

quote:
Originally posted by Medieval Guy
And while I'm a big fan of judging Connor harshly, he did have a very, very good point--he grew up in a place where appearence doesn't matter. He's the only one who WASN'T judging Jasmine just because she's ugly. And even aside from her mind control, her agenda was not entirely without merit...

MG and Lordargent (I only quoted MG's because it was shorter) make excellent points--both of which I was thinking about last night. Everyone in the brood crew was judging Jasmine not on what she was doing, but what she looked like. Everyone sat around reminicing about how wonderful things were when they were following her, yet continued to fight her because she was ugly.

Connor knew darn well she was ugly, but still followed. In fact, I would say that he was the only one that could justly kill her--he was the only one that made his decision based on what she had taken (or tried to take) from him..

Posted by: TreborPugly

Lilah could be both returned from the dead, AND the first. References to Buffy in spoiler tags: (no future spoilers, just Buffy references for those who might be behind on Buffy)

Spoiler Alert! (highlight to read)
On Buffy, the First can be any person who has been dead, even if they aren't dead now. So Lilah might really be returned from the dead, but then the First might also appear as her, stirring things up, and forcing Angel into going to Sunnydale

Treb

Posted by: doom1701

Oh, just a thought on Lilah and the First from the preview for next week:

Spoiler Alert! (highlight to read)

We see Lilah at one point throw open the shades of an office--something that a non-corporeal being would have a tough time doing.

Posted by: LoadStar

quote:
Originally posted by doom1701
Oh, just a thought on Lilah and the First from the preview for next week:

Spoiler Alert! (highlight to read)

We see Lilah at one point throw open the shades of an office--something that a non-corporeal being would have a tough time doing.

Further thought from the preview:

Spoiler Alert! (highlight to read)

We also see Angel in that same office in the bright sunlight -- something that a normal or even a souled vampire would have a tough time doing.

;) Just giving you a hard time... there's a lot we don't know yet that we'll have to find out from the episode.

Posted by: NJChris

quote:
Originally posted by doom1701
MG and Lordargent (I only quoted MG's because it was shorter) make excellent points--both of which I was thinking about last night. Everyone in the brood crew was judging Jasmine not on what she was doing, but what she looked like. Everyone sat around reminicing about how wonderful things were when they were following her, yet continued to fight her because she was ugly.

Connor knew darn well she was ugly, but still followed. In fact, I would say that he was the only one that could justly kill her--he was the only one that made his decision based on what she had taken (or tried to take) from him..

They didn't stop following her because she was ugly. And UGLY is not quite the word... she had maggots in her head... that's a bit more than just UGLY. The worms and grossness on top of it just made it seem more evil.

I believe they didn't follow her because they were able to think for themselves and realized she was not letting people think for themselves and make their own choices. It's all about the choices..... :)

I did feel sorry for Jasmine after she was exposed. She seemed to sincerely believe she was helping people. Even tho she ate some of them. She wanted people to be happy. There seemed to be no alterior motive.