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American Idol Finals *Spoilers*

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Posted by: mask2343

That was the WEAKEST finale of the season. Seriously, who picked these songs for them to sing? Can't they sing anything from this era? Reuben looked really bad until the last song, and Clay looked great in the first (cheesy) song but was boring in the rest. They did not step it up.

AND to top it off, I couldn't even get one vote in all night. Busy signal for 2 hours (I wasn't going to stay up for the third) for Ruben.


Posted by: TomK

I'll have to disagree. I thought it was a great show overall and the guys were darn good in all of their songs. Clay was the best in my opinion and nailed his last song. That was his personal best, as Paula said. I will agree on the choice of songs though. Ruben's first two songs didn't seem to suit his style. We'll have to wait and see who America chose.


Posted by: dthmj

I just got done watching it... I think Clay may walk away with it after this episode...

Ruben is just sounding tired and horse - and give the man a towel... I've never seen so much sweat. And if that is how he is after singing three songs with a good little break between each one, what is he going to be like on tour? And no one should ever sing Imagine. Ever. ::shiver::

Clay did great - all three songs were done well. I was a little nervous on Bridge Over Troubled Water, as it, like Imagine should never be sung again. I would have picked a different arrangement, but if you are going to choirize it, Clay nailed it. I wonder if he had any choice in the choir thing?

I predict Clay wins...


Posted by: NJChris

I would guess they don't have a choice in the arrangement and the choir (since they both had it at the end).

Ruben would make a good album.. of ballad type songs with only 1 style. He just does not have the range. Every one of his songs could have flowed into the other and you wouldn't have known since he sang each one the same. Although he seems to be straining more and more with each time he sings.

I thought Clay chose his songs because they showed his range. One song in the middle (with a key change - isnt that hard to do???), the second was higher pitched and the last was lower.

Ruben doesn't seem to be very good with speaking. He's quiet and doesn't say much, while Clay seems more at ease with the interviews.

Although I think Clay should win, they both seem to have a big fan base.. so I bet it will be close.

I gave up trying to vote for Clay because it was always busy until I went to bed around 1:30am.


Posted by: dthmj

I tried as soon as the show was over (I know I'm bad - voting before even watching the show, but I knew who I wanted to win...) and tried for about three hours, and never could get through on Clay's number.

Last night, with nothing to do, I headed over to the TWoP forums, and there were links to some very strange Clay fan sites... I'm guessing he has the most bizaare fans - in fact the Monday episode showed just how "stalkerish" they are... He looked a little afraid after that Q&A with his stalker... errr fan.


Posted by: tonyoci

I was not overly impressed with this show but it was more the song choices than the singers. I just cannot like Clay, he is still staring into the camera etc. He plays this nervous dude character then starts waving his two fingers when the voting numbers come up. He managed to make Here, There. . . . . sound like the solo from American Idol The Musical (stolen title of course).

I agree the Ruben is limited but there are many rich and famous limited pop stars. I still do not understand why the cannot sing modern songs.

I would like Ruben to win, more because I do not like Clay than anything. In reality either could win and has a chance.

T


Posted by: WinBear

I thought they were going to do a new original song that was intended to be the first single for the winner, like they did in AI1. This was very disappointing from that perspective. Obviously, Clay's "original" song is destined to be his first single over Randy's objection. Ruben's "Without Wings" song is going to be his first single.

I liked having them perform with the orchestra in the middle and then with the choir at the end, but couldn't this have been done last week in order to do bring it all together this week for a huge production number with both choir and orchestra?

Also, (I've been out of town so only just watched last week's show), why didn't they make the "random" song to be "America's Choice" when they had Judges' choice and performer's choice?


Posted by: mask2343

Both original songs are really cheesy! Ruben's starts with a nice beat, but then the chourus comes in and it goes from R&B to church music. Clay's was just cheesy! Just like "A Moment Like This". I like what Simon said, "It was like American Idol The Musical."

Can't they give these two guys some contemporary songs! They should have had a show that had only Billboard top 100 songs for that week.


Posted by: DLiquid

Yeah, last nights episode was a bit bland. Both Clay and Ruben are talented and consistent, so its not as interesting as episodes where you have contestants that screw up. And Randy and Paula just say how great Clay and Ruben are, it's like a broken record. At least Simon still tried to give a critique, but the crowd wasn't having it and he backed away from saying anything too harsh. I thought the songs were a bit boring. I'm sorry, but these two just did not pull off the Lennon/McCartney songs at all. I'll stick with the original versions. Clay nailed the last song, but Ruben was good on the last song too. But did you hear how much louder the crowd cheered for Clay when Seacrest asked which constestant should win?

All the Clay haters will be fuming tonight, cause little Keebler Broadway boy is gonna take it home. Go Clay!


Posted by: TiVoJedi

Clay's not so little. Look at him when he's standing next to Ryan Seacrest. I noticed Ryan looks short next to both Ruben and Clay. Pip squeek! :)

I didn't even try to vote with time shifting and all + TiVo (east coaster watching west coast feed of FOX). Hope my non-vote was at least cancelled by someone else's non vote and Clay wins.


Posted by: laria

quote:
Originally posted by dthmj
in fact the Monday episode showed just how "stalkerish" they are

I was very disappointed that my TiVo did not pick this up. :( Last week when I checked, it fell under the season pass and was all set to record, then last night I looked and it didn't record because they went and changed the name of it, and it no longer fell under the season pass.


Posted by: Tracy

I guess I don't understand how the voting system can be effective if both singer's telephone lines were working at capacity during the whole voting period.


Posted by: vertigo235

quote:
Originally posted by Tracy
I guess I don't understand how the voting system can be effective if both singer's telephone lines were working at capacity during the whole voting period.



I fully agree.


Posted by: LtSparky

quote:
Originally posted by Tracy
I guess I don't understand how the voting system can be effective if both singer's telephone lines were working at capacity during the whole voting period.


I've wondered about that myself. When there were more contestants, the votes are more diluted and all the lines aren't running at capacity. With only the two of them, if both numbers are running at capacity, there will be a slim margin between the totals.

Just as an example, say each line could handle 5 million calls in a 2 hour voting session (just speculation). Say 6 million people want to vote for Ruben and 8 million want to vote for Clay. Because of the capacity limit, Ruben could still win by his line accepting calls slightly faster than Clay's. Of course, this is not counting the text message votes which I assume aren't restricted by capacity of the lines (or are they?)


Posted by: DLiquid

I agree with you guys about the voting and the capacity of the lines. Didn't they say the voting results last week varied less than 5% between all three contestants?


Posted by: vertigo235

I guess they should have more than one line per contestant.

I don't do this for a living, but it's obvious that the line is above capacity if people are getting busy signals, and that's not good.

You can't tell me that it doesn't have an effect on the outcome, because it clearly has to.


Posted by: vertigo235

BTW, isn't it weird that Ruben, Clay, and Kimberly had been the "final 3" before. Err on one of the earlier shows....

And the last time, Clay was the weakest link.


Posted by: tonyoci

I loved the crowd reaction when they announced Paul Anka, a very muted response, with probably 75% of the audience saying "Who the hell is Paul Anka"

Tony


Posted by: NJChris

quote:
Originally posted by tonyoci
I loved the crowd reaction when they announced Paul Anka, a very muted response, with probably 75% of the audience saying "Who the hell is Paul Anka"

Tony


Yes, and that was ashame. Why would they choose someone that most of their target audience has no clue who he is....


Posted by: randym431

They knew who he was, they just thought he was dead.


Posted by: cello

ugh. so they keep on saying that the votes are incredibly close - as if there's no reason for this. Of course they're close. The system was topped out. Anybody who knows anything about experimental methodology or stats knows that a measure means little to nothing if there's no room for variance. They topped out their phone system, and there is no room for variance. The vote means nothing - the numbers we need are how many people wanted to but could *not* get through to vote.

Of course, the vote still means nothing, since the long term prospects for their careers will rely on a whole lot more than this. But I felt like ranting about very unscientific polling methods :-)


Posted by: TomK

50 minutes into the show and they said that the winner had 50.28% of the votes and the loser had 49.72%...a difference of only 13,000 out of 20,000,000.


Posted by: Smiles

Well, you don't need to know anything about stats or otherwise. If their system could only process 4 million votes per hour per number (two numbers open for three hours each, 24 million votes total), that would explain the near-tie. Nice insight.


Posted by: cello

oh dear, don't tell me that they're not announcing before 9. Well, my TiVo is switching to Law and Order. Oh well...


Posted by: Dafaso

RU-BEN is the winner! Either one would have been fine with me. However, I wish the voting could have been more accurate.


Posted by: Smiles

Having heard their corrected number (1335) I'm absolutely convinced that their system maxed out and that the vote was not a vote at all. They should've tossed a coin and called it a day. I guess they kind of did - they're both getting record deals.


Posted by: cello

whoa, you mean that the vote margin was only 1,335? Statistically insignificant.

meh, who cares anyway :)


Posted by: esperantisto

Statistically insignificant... makes me think of another election ;-)


Posted by: cello

hehehehe, yeah

except the problem with political elections is that so few of the people who will be affected by the outcome actually vote. Whereas this one, most people who should have cared about the outcome probably tried to vote.

Ah well, all will be forgotten soon. At least by me, who will keep her radio dial firmly planted on her local public radio station ;)


Posted by: NJChris

The RCA guy kinda took the impact out of it anyway when he said they have already both started recording.

So, tell me.. what's the point of winning???


Posted by: ManOfSnow

quote:
Originally posted by Smiles
Well, you don't need to know anything about stats or otherwise. If their system could only process 4 million votes per hour per number (two numbers open for three hours each, 24 million votes total), that would explain the near-tie. Nice insight.


I'm a dork and voted via text message. I wonder how that plays into your stats?


Posted by: pantherman007

50.0028% vs 49.9972%? Statistically a dead heat, and definitely an indication that the voting system was maxed out and the 'true' vote could have been very different. I shouldn't care, since both will be getting record contracts. And after the Corey fiasco earlier in the competition, they certainly couldn't have ended with a tie. But ...

Come on Fox! This show's kicking major a$$ in the ratings, you're charging Superbowl rates for commercials during the final episodes, and you don't see fit to ugprade the phone system to handle what you knew would be tens of millions of calls? Lame, very lame.


Posted by: Todd76

I tried to vote for Clay each of the last two weeks. Probably 50-75 calls each week and nothing but busy signals. In earlier weeks, I could get through one out of every ten calls or so (after waiting at least 30 minutes after the show).


Posted by: ufo4sale

and what is sad is that they aren't going to change the voting system for next year either.


Posted by: DLiquid

quote:
Originally posted by cello
ugh. so they keep on saying that the votes are incredibly close - as if there's no reason for this. Of course they're close. The system was topped out. Anybody who knows anything about experimental methodology or stats knows that a measure means little to nothing if there's no room for variance. They topped out their phone system, and there is no room for variance. The vote means nothing - the numbers we need are how many people wanted to but could *not* get through to vote.
You are exactly right, and it really bugs me.

I was thinking it comes down to how fast the voters hung up. You hang up faster, and I would think more calls could get through. You stay on the line to hear the full voice message, and less calls get through. Of course, no one was probably thinking about this when voting. This easily explains a 1300 difference in the topped out phone system.

I think everyone knew the voting system failed them, and that's why they brought out Clive Davis to tell us they've both started recording already, and why Simon said the real winner will be determined when their records are released on the SAME DAY. They knew they blew it with the voting system. They probably realized this the week Kim L was voted out (extremely close there too), and lengthening the voting time to 3 hours was a halfhearted attempt to put a band-aid on the broken system. Bad job! Bad bad bad!

On the other hand, as others have said, what difference does it really make who won? Will winning at all affect which is more successful, I doubt it.


Posted by: EchoBravo

quote:

Originally posted by dthmj
I predict Clay wins...

LOL


Posted by: cello

wait... doesn't Clay win? He got the exposure and fans, he gets the record deal, but he doesn't have to do like Kelly Clarkson and do the stupid appearances on the show, and whatever other publicity junk that Ruben is certainly going to be stuck doing now that he's the official American Idol.

I've been rooting for Clay, but it occurrec to me a few days ago that it would probably be better to let Ruben win, as Clay will surely have a career either way. Let Ruben have the AI baggage ;)


Posted by: Smiles

quote:
Originally posted by ManOfSnow
I'm a dork and voted via text message. I wonder how that plays into your stats?

You and 1,334 of your dork friends could have made the difference. ;) (I probably would've voted that way too if I had AT&T.)

Unfortunately, we'll never know unless Fox divulges more facts. They somewhat covered their asses this round by having them both get contracts, but they're going to have to rethink their voting procedure next time or risk a similar situation. All it would take is one well-worded article in an entertainment mag to make people think their votes don't count, and that could turn off a chunk of their audience. Then again, without said article, most people will continue to assume the vote really was that close. I'll remain skeptical until shown otherwise.


Posted by: Crimsonblake

I'm glad Ruben won.

Clay seems too cocky, arrogant, and strangely femine...Is he gay?

Go Ruben, hooray for heterosexuality :)


Posted by: randym431

What makes you think Ruben isnt? I'd wager he is before I would Clay, but doesnt matter since most talented people ARE. ;)


Posted by: jradosh

quote:
Originally posted by cello
meh, who cares anyway :)
cello, you couldn't have summed up my feelings any better if you tried. :D

J


Posted by: David Platt

quote:
Originally posted by cello
wait... doesn't Clay win? He got the exposure and fans, he gets the record deal, but he doesn't have to do like Kelly Clarkson and do the stupid appearances on the show, and whatever other publicity junk that Ruben is certainly going to be stuck doing now that he's the official American Idol.



I'd tend to agree with you, but it sure seems like Justin made many more appearances on AI this year than Kelly did.


Posted by: bdowell

For the record people, the real winner was FOX, for getting people to watch the shows and make all those phone calls.

The losers were the people that lived and died by the show and the results.


Posted by: WinBear

Notice the Amazon.com Sales Rank...

Clay Aiken

Ruben Studdard

Yikes, the ranks have changed drastically since I looked yesterday before the show started. Ruben was #7 and Clay was #1. At the time I'm writing this, Clay was #1 and Ruben #2. Ought to be interesting how this plays out on the charts.


Posted by: jradosh

Interesting artical on AI in today's Washington Post...
quote:
And the people at Amazon.com, who reported earlier this week that Aiken's not-yet-released single was the Web site's top-selling CD, while Studdard's was way back at No. 386.

The "American Idol" producers, however, had to have gone tingly all over with the outcome, having labored for weeks to influence viewers to vote for Studdard.

From the get-go, acid-tongued judge Simon Cowell, who is also one of the show's executive producers, spared Studdard all discussion of his weight, for instance, while harshly criticizing the physiques of other contestants.

When even irritatingly uncritical judge Paula Abdul had issues with Studdard's performance, Cowell checked himself. And he was furious with viewers when Studdard landed in the bottom two a few weeks back.

Cowell worked just as hard to send "hello, might be gay" messages to the hordes of smitten young women who have formed the Claymates fan club. Usually his unsubtle messages took the form of blasting the singer's performance as "too Broadway."

That included this Tuesday, during the final sing-off, when Cowell called Aiken's performance of "This Is the Night" too "American Idol: The Musical." "What's astonishing is how handsome this show has made you," added Cowell, who has repeatedly criticized Aiken for not looking like a pop star. "You look at those early clips -- I'm not being rude, but you were really ugly and now you're handsome." (Apparently, Cowell, who often seemed bored during this edition's competition, had dozed off each time Studdard had appeared in one of those "205" muumuus.)



Posted by: ahartman

Talk about moving the numbers around...

1) Seacrest originally said 13,000 votes separated them
2) Seacrest revised his number to 1,300
3) ABCNews article (from AP) says split was 130,000 votes

50.28% of the vote would support the 130,000 number.


Posted by: esperantisto

Crimsonblake:
Clay seems too cocky, arrogant, and strangely femine...Is he gay?
Go Ruben, hooray for heterosexuality

I see *this* is what you mean by love the sinner, hate the sin...


Posted by: WinBear

I haven't seen much indication of Ruben's sexuality either way, so declaring him hetero seems premature.


Posted by: CrZyMnKy

I thought Ruben looked dumber than he already did before after winning last night. All he had to say for himself was thank you and I love you. I thought Clay gave a nice little speech at the end. But man Ruben has no personality IMHO.


Posted by: xuxa

It is so all about the dollars, Fox has a weekly hour-long commerical for artists on RCA (four hours this week alone) that commercials even pay for and is covered by partically all news media, no wonder Clive Davis is happy this is a no brainer. They kept the 'votes' close so America could judge in the record stores (mentioned many times in the final). The voting system is not even an issue. Prop both contestants up and millions of fans will buy records of amatuers singing marginalized songs. Some people already are via Amazon to be a 'part' of the competition. They aren't buying music just hype. Excellent marketing technique equals bad music. Just when I thought Clear Channel communications is the worst thing for music here comes American Idol.


Posted by: jsmeeker

Bummer.... I really wanted Clay to win.


Can you imagine a conversation between Ruben and Shaquile O'Neal??


Posted by: walters

I sent a note to Fox telling them how flawed their voting system was (I liked both guys, so I really didn't care who won. I just can't stand an obviously flawed system). There was one phrase I came up with that I'm particularly proud of:

quote:
You weighed Ruben and Clay using a scale that was only capable of registering 100 pounds and declared them roughly the same.


:D


Posted by: sean67854

quote:
Originally posted by jsmeeker
Bummer.... I really wanted Clay to win.


Can you imagine a conversation between Ruben and Shaquile O'Neal??


'Sup?
'Sup?
Alabama REPRESENT!
Lousiana REPRESENT!


Shaq is from Louisiana, right?


Posted by: sean67854

quote:
Originally posted by walters
You weighed Ruben and Clay using a scale that was only capable of registering 100 pounds and declared them roughly the same.



Not sure why, but that made me think of this.

quote:
So if she burns, she's a witch!



Posted by: Dafaso

quote:
Originally posted by walters
You weighed Ruben and Clay using a scale that was only capable of registering 100 pounds and declared them roughly the same.


No. Ruben would still win. He would break the scale.


;) :D


Posted by: NJChris

quote:
Originally posted by Crimsonblake
I'm glad Ruben won.

Clay seems too cocky, arrogant, and strangely femine...Is he gay?

Go Ruben, hooray for heterosexuality :)



Sigh...


Posted by: drumorgan

Haven't heard this mentioned yet, but where was Josh? Did he go back to active duty? Why wouldn't they at least mention that?


Posted by: CrZyMnKy

quote:
Originally posted by drumorgan
Haven't heard this mentioned yet, but where was Josh? Did he go back to active duty? Why wouldn't they at least mention that?



I think they did mention the fact that he went on active duty. I don't remember hearing it, but that is what I was told.


Posted by: gregbennett

quote:
Originally posted by drumorgan
Haven't heard this mentioned yet, but where was Josh? Did he go back to active duty? Why wouldn't they at least mention that?


During Monday's show the mentioned that he had returned to active duty.


Posted by: dthmj

They very briefly mentioned that Josh went to Active Duty on either the Monday or the Tuesday show when they brought back everyone for a number... They filled in with Vanessa...


Posted by: DLiquid

quote:
Originally posted by xuxa
Just when I thought Clear Channel communications is the worst thing for music here comes American Idol.
I'll take Ruben or Clay over Britney and Christina any day. Pop music has been weak for decades, do you really think American Idol will make it worse? LOL!


Posted by: tonyoci

I noticed Josh missing but since I FF through most of the talk I wondered if I missed it.

I decided that I did not care who won before the show, I think that both are good in their own way and both will do OK, perhaps it's a flaw in this show format but it really makes little difference who the winner is.

I enjoyed the skit with Simon dreaming about Paula, but I'm easily pleased.


T


Posted by: mask2343

Shaq is from Texas. Went to college in Louisiana (LSU).


Posted by: xuxa

quote:
Originally posted by DLiquid
I'll take Ruben or Clay over Britney and Christina any day. Pop music has been weak for decades, do you really think American Idol will make it worse? LOL!



Well judging from last years winner with "Miss Understood" which is exactly like Christina but without the attitude, Reuben and Clay will come out with the same pop manufactured stuff. This is all about the lowest common denominator because that makes the most bucks. Nothing wrong with that making money but it is a bad road to take in making music better.


Posted by: WinBear

Josh Gracin evidently is back with the marines and is unable to get leave to make further appearances at this time. They brought in Vanessa Olivarez, the #12 finalist to round out the 10 finalists remaining (after disqualifying Corey Clark).


Posted by: NJChris

quote:
Originally posted by WinBear
Josh Gracin evidently is back with the marines and is unable to get leave to make further appearances at this time. They brought in Vanessa Olivarez, the #12 finalist to round out the 10 finalists remaining (after disqualifying Corey Clark).


I'm glad Vanessa is in the tour. She is so much better than Josh.


Posted by: DLiquid

It was like the battle of Obi Wan Claynobi and Darth Studdard.

Claynobi: "If you strike me down, I will become more powerful than you could ever imagine."

By losing, I think Clay is actually better off. He's still the underdog. He was robbed of his victory by a flawed system. You all must buy his CD to prove he is the AI master. These are things that will work in his favor.

It will be interesting to see what the Emporer (Clive Davis) does. If he thinks Clay can sell more units, the marketing dollars will probably go to Clay over Ruben.


Posted by: sean67854

It's hard to say who will make a better "pop star" since they both spent most of the competition singing total crap.

Why couldn't they sing at least one up-tempo, modern song?


Posted by: mask2343

My sentiments exactly Sean! How about more of that "Must be the Money" stuff? Ruben would have killed if he could sing some R&B like R. Kelly or Babyface. Clay could have done some...well...Cats!

And how can you deny that Clay is gay? Case in point...ALL his friends were GIRLS.


Posted by: KRS

quote:
Originally posted by DLiquid
It was like the battle of Obi Wan Claynobi and Darth Studdard.


I think Clay = C3PO and Ruben = Jabba the Hutt would be better approximations!

That leaves Darth open for Simon, Paula can take the token female Princess Leia role, and Randy can be R2D2!

The record exec = the Emperor is spot on though!


Posted by: randym431

Ruben will be on Leno tonight, that is going by nbc.com.

I'm have become a fan of Paula Abdul. I remember her music back in the 80's when she was hot, but fizzled. She great at hosting. I seen her once live at Universal Studios Theme park in LA. She was doing one of those outside shows back in 1990 (or late 80's?). I felt sorry for her because no one was really watching her show. People were there to see Universal Studios and the sights and didnt seem to care to sit and watch. They would wander in, sit for 10 minutes, and leave. Usually dragging 4 or 5 kids with them. I wondered how she felt. It was like singing in a crouded, noisy bar where no one is listening. But Paula Abdul just kept going. Then, she brought all these kids up on stage with her, like 4 - 7 year olds, and they danced around and played while she sang. I think it was the children of the band members or some of hers??? Anyway, she just made it a family thing, had some fun with it, and didnt really care what was going on in the audience. It must be awful to have been famous, then see yourself crash. So I'm glad to see her on tv again, and looking so good!


Posted by: randym431

Just occured to me, Ruben and Clay would be the perfect cast for a remake of Gilligans Island. Clay would be Gilligan, Ruben the skipper, Paula could be either Ginger or Maryann.


Posted by: David Platt

quote:
Originally posted by mask2343

And how can you deny that Clay is gay? Case in point...ALL his friends were GIRLS.


Well, gee-- I must be gay too then. :rolleyes:


Posted by: ourdoc

quote:
Originally posted by mask2343
My sentiments exactly Sean! How about more of that "Must be the Money" stuff? Ruben would have killed if he could sing some R&B like R. Kelly or Babyface. Clay could have done some...well...Cats!

And how can you deny that Clay is gay? Case in point...ALL his friends were GIRLS.

Can you say homophobic?

So because he has girls as friends that makes him gay?? Do you know for certain they showed ALL of his friends? All it means is that girls find him a nice enough person to want to be his friend. Using this analogy would mean that anyone wearing a mask would have to be ugly...

Personally, I don't have your crystal ball to tell if he is gay or not, and more importantly, I could care less. It has nothing to do with his talent, which he has a lot of. It's more gay bashing, which means you don't even have to be gay to be bashed, only someone thinking you are gay will do.
And no, I have 3 kids and grandkids, and am far from being gay.

Goes with the same people saying how Kelly Clarkson sucked. Wow, must be good to suck at singing, yet have your first album go platinum in the first 5 weeks...:rolleyes: :rolleyes:


Posted by: jsmeeker

I guess I'm gay too.. My best friend is a girl.


Posted by: cello

My 2 closest friends include one man and one woman. Does this make me bi? (Or maybe the rules don't hold for women...)

;)


Posted by: jradosh

quote:
Originally posted by randym431
Ruben the skipper, Paula could be either Ginger or Maryann.
Ginger maybe. Mary Ann ? That's just plain wrong! :mad:

Anyway, Carmen is clearly Mary Ann and Kimberly Caldwell is obviously Ginger.

Paula could perhaps be Ms. Howell (to Simon's Thurston?)... leaving Randy Jackson as The Professor :p


Posted by: NJChris

quote:
Originally posted by mask2343
My sentiments exactly Sean! How about more of that "Must be the Money" stuff? Ruben would have killed if he could sing some R&B like R. Kelly or Babyface. Clay could have done some...well...Cats!

And how can you deny that Clay is gay? Case in point...ALL his friends were GIRLS.


That's why he said what a good friend Ruben is too? He seems like the kind of guy who gets along with most people.

I find it funny that because he has a few qualities that aren't as masculine as some people think they "should be" for a straight person, that he must be gay.

That's pretty ignorant, IMHO.


Posted by: TiVolcano

quote:
Originally posted by ourdoc
Can you say homophobic?


I understand why you are upset, and I'm not defending the previous remark, but automatically calling someone homophobic is just as bad a stereotype.

I'm more inclined to think that Clay is like that old Dana Carvey character, the "effeminate heterosexual". ;)


Posted by: mask2343

Touchy, Touchy...I must have struck a nerve. The point of my post was that people were denying he was gay. I think everyone knows it, and he'll come out soon enough. I don't want to start a sexuality argument (this is not the message board for that). Don't you guys remember the gay guy in high school that all the girls loved? I know it's a stereotype, but it's true...

And no, my theory does not hold for women. LOL


Posted by: NJChris

quote:
Originally posted by mask2343
Touchy, Touchy...I must have struck a nerve. The point of my post was that people were denying he was gay. I think everyone knows it, and he'll come out soon enough. I don't want to start a sexuality argument (this is not the message board for that). Don't you guys remember the gay guy in high school that all the girls loved? I know it's a stereotype, but it's true...


Incredible...


Posted by: jradosh

quote:
Originally posted by mask2343
Touchy, Touchy...I must have struck a nerve.
Nerve? no. It's just that this board doesn't tolerate a fool very well, and that was a pretty foolish post. :D

As to your High School example... I thought I knew a lot of things in HS. Most of them turned out to be wrong.

BTW, are you in HS? I assume so since you used that example. (not that there's anything wrong with it).

J


Posted by: mask2343

I guess my tone of writing was taken the wrong way again. I have never spoken out against homosexuals in any of the posts. I just am of the opinion that Clay is one. I apologize if that is offensive. And no I am not in HS.


Posted by: Crimsonblake

Ruben is a good Baptist Christian guy, unless he has some hidden demons inside, he isn't gay.

BTW i'm not homophobic, my neighbors are gay. I just think the practice is disgusting and appaulling. Asking me to accept homosexuality is like asking me to accept incest or beastiality.


Posted by: NJChris

quote:
Originally posted by Crimsonblake
Ruben is a good Baptist Christian guy, unless he has some hidden demons inside, he isn't gay.

BTW i'm not homophobic, my neighbors are gay. I just think the practice is disgusting and appaulling. Asking me to accept homosexuality is like asking me to accept incest or beastiality.


Again.. INCREDIBLE.

Very ignorant. And it is *NOT* like asking to accept incest or beastiality. I don't want to turn this into an argument but with so many ignorant comments, I can't help myself.

I'm sure there are many kinds of sex that straight people do that you find disgusting and appauling, but why focus on that when you look at people?

To accept something doesn't mean you like doing it. It means you respect other people for their differences.


Posted by: DLiquid

quote:
Originally posted by Crimsonblake
BTW i'm not homophobic, my neighbors are gay. I just think the practice is disgusting and appaulling. Asking me to accept homosexuality is like asking me to accept incest or beastiality.
quote:
ho·mo·pho·bi·a
n.
1. Fear of or contempt for lesbians and gay men.
2. Behavior based on such a feeling.
Hmmm....


Posted by: tonyoci

Can't we have a new thread for this. This is a family show.

T


Posted by: Crimsonblake

quote:
Originally posted by NJChris
Again.. INCREDIBLE.

Very ignorant. And it is *NOT* like asking to accept incest or beastiality. I don't want to turn this into an argument but with so many ignorant comments, I can't help myself.

I'm sure there are many kinds of sex that straight people do that you find disgusting and appauling, but why focus on that when you look at people?

To accept something doesn't mean you like doing it. It means you respect other people for their differences.


How is my post ignorant? I think homosexuality is wrong, so tell me why would i want to accept it? It's disgusting and purely immoral. When they figure out how to natually impregnate a man, then i'll accept it.


Posted by: cello

I guess that birth control and masturbation are also immoral, as is oral sex or any sex act without the intent of concetpion.... :rolleyes:



soooo.... back to AI. How 'bout them singing people...


Posted by: Crimsonblake

quote:
Originally posted by cello
I guess that birth control and masturbation are also immoral, as is oral sex or any sex act without the intent of concetpion.... :rolleyes:



soooo.... back to AI. How 'bout them singing people...


Yea they are immoral.


Posted by: TiVoLance

Wow the fundamentals turn a thread about American Idol singing show into gay bashing. Lets stop this direction and focus on AI please.


Posted by: randym431

Crimsonblake, I have always been fascinated by people that have such a strong opinion of Gays, that claim they're straight themselves. Most really straight sexually secure men are not bothered in the least by Gays, and show no problem living/working with them, or having one in the family. Your attitude is strange. Be careful, your closet door is agar.


Posted by: CrZyMnKy

quote:
Originally posted by mask2343


And how can you deny that Clay is gay? Case in point...ALL his friends were GIRLS.


Humm...well first there is complaint that he is dorky, which he kinda is. How many guys like to hang out with the dorky ones unless they are dorky too. Probably reason he has to turn more the girls.


Posted by: vertigo235

Well, he is a special ed major as well.

Not that I care what sex preference he has.


Posted by: cello

dood, he's singing on tv and has a record deal! how dorky can he really be? Yeah, a bit in comparison to the other folks. but still...

(as I sit here with other dorks talking about reality tv shows on a Friday night. I hope we all notice the irony of calling Clay dorky ;))


Posted by: Crimsonblake

quote:
Originally posted by randym431
Crimsonblake, I have always been fascinated by people that have such a strong opinion of Gays, that claim they're straight themselves. Most really straight sexually secure men are not bothered in the least by Gays, and show no problem living/working with them, or having one in the family. Your attitude is strange. Be careful, your closet door is agar.


I have no problem associating with gay people, living next to gay people or working with gay people. But i'm not going to endorse, support, or spend time with someone who is "Gay and proud of it." To me, being gay is a problem like having a drug problem, internet porn problem or any other problem. Now if this person wanted help, sure i'd help them in every way possible.

I have my own problems, but i don't go around bragging about them. I tend to use bad language, i speak without thinking, i'm too straight forward, yet i don't go around bragging about my problems.

Yes, i understand to you and other gay people, being gay isn't a problem. Well thats great. You can have your agenda of going around trying to convince people that being Gay isn't a problem, but you'll never change me, and i pray to god the majority of America viewpoint doesn't get changed. Anyway, we have our opinions and are entitled to them.


Posted by: jradosh

quote:
Originally posted by Crimsonblake
I have no problem associating with gay people, living next to gay people or working with gay people. But i'm not going to endorse, support, or spend time with someone who is "Gay and proud of it."
Note to gay people... if you want to hang out with Crimsonblake, be sure to be ashamed of yourself.

quote:
Originally posted by Crimsonblake
Now if this person wanted help, sure i'd help them in every way possible.
WOW!!! :eek: Crimsonblake, you have the cure for gayness?!?!. Please share it with the rest of us if you don't mind.

Thanks,
J ;)


Posted by: cello

judging by your picture, you seem to be proud of being straight. why can't people be proud of being gay - just because you disagree with it?


anyway, Clay hasn't ever said a word about his sexual orientation (as if it's our business). He's certainly not flaunting it, whatever it is.


Posted by: Todd76

quote:
Originally posted by Crimsonblake
I have my own problems, but i don't go around bragging about them. I tend to use bad language, i speak without thinking, i'm too straight forward, yet i don't go around bragging about my problems.


You are bragging about your problems, including one that you didn't admit to but one that everybody here now knows about.


Posted by: esperantisto

You know Crimson, i'm christian too and I believe you are going to burn in hell for what you believe. I guess I should make a point of posting that every time I see a post about your beliefs.


Posted by: Crimsonblake

quote:
Originally posted by esperantisto
You know Crimson, i'm christian too and I believe you are going to burn in hell for what you believe. I guess I should make a point of posting that every time I see a post about your beliefs.


You are a christian and you believe i'm going to burn in hell for what i believe? What are you referring to? What kind of bass awkwards christian are you?


Posted by: Crimsonblake

quote:
Originally posted by TiVoLance
Wow the fundamentals turn a thread about American Idol singing show into gay bashing. Lets stop this direction and focus on AI please.


And the liberal minority turn it into a flame session.


Posted by: Crimsonblake

quote:
Originally posted by cello
judging by your picture, you seem to be proud of being straight. why can't people be proud of being gay - just because you disagree with it?


Proud of being heterosexual? I pray there's never a day we have to be proud of someone for being heterosexual.

Last time i checked heterosexuality was normal.


Posted by: cello

woohoo. added the homophobe to the ignore list - my first one ever!

maybe everybody can do the same, so we can bring this back to a discussion of AI, and not a discussion of why all gays are going to hell, or whatever it is that Crimsonblake thinks.


Posted by: Crimsonblake

quote:
Originally posted by cello
woohoo. added the homophobe to the ignore list - my first one ever!

maybe everybody can do the same, so we can bring this back to a discussion of AI, and not a discussion of why all gays are going to hell, or whatever it is that Crimsonblake thinks.


nice flame.


Posted by: David Platt

quote:
Originally posted by Crimsonblake
And the liberal minority turn it into a flame session.


Let me get this straight:

you make an initial inflammatory post equating homosexuality with incest and bestiality, then you complain when things get heated? :rolleyes:

Oh, and BTW, I couldn't let this little tidbit slip by:

quote:
Last time i checked heterosexuality was normal.

Depends on whose definition of 'normal' you're using, doesn't it?


Posted by: jradosh

quote:
Originally posted by Crimsonblake
Proud of being heterosexual? I pray there's never a day we have to be proud of someone for being heterosexual.
I think you've taken the notion of "gay pride" to a different level than it is intended. I believe (but correct me if I'm wrong) that you're taking the word 'pride' to mean a "conceit" or "a satisfaction in accomplishment" (from dictionary.com), whereas the gay community uses the word to express a "sense of one's own proper dignity or value; self-respect".

I don't think gay people are proud of themselves in the sense that I'm proud of myself for, say, running a 5K race. Anyone in the gay community can correct me if I'm wrong.

J

PS. as far as getting back to discussing AI... why? It's over. Ruben won. Until the next series starts what's there to talk about? :D


Posted by: cello

very well said jra.

well, I'm straight, but am involved enough in the gay community that I feel good saying that that's a decent way of wording it. (Of course, anybody more qualified than me can feel free to thwack me upside the head for being wrong about that :))

oh there's plenty to talk about! now that we have talked about sexuality, how about, um... hair color! Yet another thing that is undeniably important to one's ability to sing well. Or maybe foot size. You know what they say about those feet!

Or maybe not. Just was trying to salvage this topic, in case anybody out there really did want to talk about AI, and didn't feel comfortable jumping in amongst all of the previous junk....


Posted by: LoadStar

If you aren't going to talk about AI, please take it to the Happy Hour. I'm tired of going into this thread and seeing the constant pro/con-homosexuality discussion. It's no longer anywhere close to being related to AI or "TV Show Talk" anymore, and doesn't belong here. And as jradosh said, obviously you aren't interested in talking about AI anymore, so it shouldn't be here.

Mods, PLEASE move or lock this topic.


Posted by: cello

umm.. I was the one who suggested bringing it back on topic, jra was the one who suggested that nobody cared.

but thanks...


Posted by: LoadStar

quote:
Originally posted by cello
umm.. I was the one who suggested bringing it back on topic, jra was the one who suggested that nobody cared.

but thanks...


Your post happened to come between mine and jradosh's post, but my post was mostly in reply to his, not yours. Hence my mentioning him, not you. :)


Posted by: cello

aah, okay. I was very confused :)


Posted by: esperantisto

So, when are they supposted to start AI3?


Posted by: mask2343

Ok, without breaking away totally from AI or the homosexual conversation...because I think it is important. I accidentally started all the hoopla by stating that I thought Clay was gay. So I have a question that shouldn't offend anyone. If he does come out, how does everyone think it will affect his record sales? I can understand why he would keep it under wraps during the show. Based on the way they treated Jim Verarros (who came out shortly after AI 1) as a running joke, I don't think it would help him. I think it would definitely hurt him in the long run.


Posted by: cello

I think it would definitely hurt him in the short run. (All the little teenagers who have crushes on him would probably steer clear, for one.)

About the long run - well, if there is a long run, I don't know if he really has a choice. He doesn't need to make a public announcement or anything, but if he becomes famous and starts attending awards shows and being followed and watched everywhere he goes, something like who you like to date is really hard to hide.

I think that if he ends up having a big career, and if he is gay, the best thing to do would be to actually come out at some point. The rumor mill seems like it can be a lot worse than the truth. People will speculate endlessly about someone's sexuality if there is a hint that he or she is not straight, but once they come out, there's only so much to gossip about anymore. (I'm really thinking about Rosie O'Donnell now - people speculated for years and years, then she came out and they pretty much shut up shortly after that. "So did you hear that Rosie really is gay." "yup." nothing much more to say.) Of course there is always talk about who is dating who, who is having kids, who just broke up, etc., but that kind of gossip goes for straight folks too.

If I were a gay performer, I'd wait until I had a loyal fanbase that I could count on (i.e. not teenage girls) and then come out as soon as I felt that that was settled. Of course sales will drop, but who wants a 5 year long tabloid scandal about your sexuality when it could be a 2 month tabloid scandal instead? ;)


Posted by: cello

Oh, on the next AI, I have no idea. But there is this show coming up called "American Juniors" which looks like it may be a kiddie version of AI. I only saw one commercial for it (thanks TiVo) so far, but it looks like they'll be focusing on the stage moms too, which should be very interesting! Though probably very sad, also.

And guess what - I bet that nobody will be speculating about the sexuality of the winners! ;-)


Posted by: DLiquid

No matter how off-topic this thread has become, I think it's somewhat relevant. To me, Simon seems just as gay as Clay does, and it seemed like his constant in bad taste gay joke banter with Seacrest was a way of proving he isn't gay. That and giving Simon's girlfriend a lot of camera time.

Bringing this thread slightly more on topic, did anyone notice the boy toy next to the Black long-haired w/mustache funk judge (can't remember his name) during the finale show? I was like whaaaat. :p


Posted by: Crimsonblake

quote:
Originally posted by DPlatt
Let me get this straight:

you make an initial inflammatory post equating homosexuality with incest and bestiality, then you complain when things get heated? :rolleyes:

Oh, and BTW, I couldn't let this little tidbit slip by:


Depends on whose definition of 'normal' you're using, doesn't it?


Nature my friend, ever heard of it? I'll end this conversation here. Why? B/c i knew what route you'd take and i know what route you'd take if i kept it going.

I knew you'd go the route of "who determines morals" or " who determines what is normal and what isn't"

Whose definition of normal am i using? Society, Nature and religion. That covers about everything and anything. Why society? It's still illegal in 90 percent of states to have a gay marriage.

Nature, it's impossible for a man to give birth, i don't comprehend how you could not see that.

Religion, (guessing) i'd say 90 percent of all MAJOR religions look down on homosexuality. Since the majority of the world is still "religious" and their morals are base
d off this religion, you are still in the minority.


Posted by: DLiquid

quote:
Originally posted by Crimsonblake
Whose definition of normal am i using? Society, Nature and religion.
The arguments you just gave could have easily been used to justify slavery a couple hundred years ago.


Sorry, I couldn't resist responding :).


Posted by: mask2343

Blake, although I share your opinion that homosexuality is not what God intended, your arguments don't make much sense. You are coming off as an arrogant unforgiving Christian, which is also what God did not intend. It is very hard to change opinions (especially on a message board). In my opinion you should try to understand WHY people have different views, then you'll have a basis to start your argument. The whole "You're wrong, I'm right" just doesn't work and leads to heated arguments.


Posted by: FourFourSeven

quote:
Originally posted by mask2343
The whole "You're wrong, I'm right" just doesn't work and leads to heated arguments.

I think that is what he is trying to do...

Back on the topic of AI, I'm curious if ANYONE here is planning on going to an AI concert this summer. They're playing at some pretty big arenas, and I just can't imagine they'd fill them.


Posted by: tonyoci

They filled them no problem last year. If there are x million voters then you can easily fill some 20,000 arena's or at leat fill them enough. There are enough kids who take their parents, and teenagers etc. to make it a no brainer, the tickets are relatively cheap and they perform mostly cover versions so a lot of different people enjoy it.

Not me however

T


Posted by: Skittles

This was in today's IMDB Studio Brief:

quote:
Some American Idol fans are expressing anger over their inability to register votes during the final three hours of voting last Tuesday, USA Today reported today (Tuesday), noting that "the lost votes might have produced a different result." A Maryland woman told the newspaper: "My daughter dialed more than a hundred times and couldn't get through. ... This is a show we all watch as a family, and I guarantee you we will never watch again. My daughter was in tears." However a 15-year-old from Manhattan Beach, CA said that she used AT&T's text-messaging option and got through immediately. (AT&T said that it supplied 2.5 million votes, about 10 percent of the total and that not a single message was rejected.) The complaints were dismissed by Fox spokesman Scott Grogan, who remarked that "24 million did get through. ... The system worked like it was supposed to."


Grogan's comment about the system working like it should is a bit troubling. You would think he'd understand that a partial voting block isn't necessarily indicative of the feelings of the majority.

The more I read from Fox's position, the more appealing the conspiracy card looks to me.


Posted by: mask2343

Not conspiracy, just stupidity. They really could care less about who won since they will release their albums on the same day and both have the same record deal. Why wouldn't they try internet voting?


Posted by: FourFourSeven

So it looks like we have two types of voters:

1) About 22 million votes on regular phone lines - where it was essentially a tie, due to the limitations discussed above.

2) About 2.5 million text message votes, which were all counted.

I'd say the text message votes determined the winner. Fair? No, unless text message-senders are a representative sample.

Of course, the limitations on the regular phone lines may have been irreglar, so it may not have ended up "about tied."

Conspiracy? Unlikely. Unfair voting system? Definitely not. Does it matter one iota to either person's long-term singing career? I seriously doubt it.


Posted by: Skittles

quote:
Originally posted by FourFourSeven
Unfair voting system? Definitely not.


Sorry, but the voting system has already been described in earlier posts, and is quite obviously unfair.


Posted by: mask2343

Why unfair? How do we know that Ruben wouldn't have won by 20 million votes if they accepted every call?

Stupid system, yes, but unfair?


Posted by: Skittles

quote:
Originally posted by mask2343
Why unfair? How do we know that Ruben wouldn't have won by 20 million votes if they accepted every call?

Stupid system, yes, but unfair?


I believe Walters had the best explanation of the system:
quote:
You weighed Ruben and Clay using a scale that was only capable of registering 100 pounds and declared them roughly the same.



Posted by: cello

The fact that we don't know what you suggested is just why the system is unfair. They chose a "winner" without really knowing what the actual vote count could have been.

Yes, unfair as a voting system. Unfair to their future careers, probably not.


Posted by: mask2343

I was going to restate Walters point myself. Great quote...if I use it three time, can I claim it? But I still think unfair is the wrong word. If the text messages really did decide the vote, then I would wager that it also represented the entire nation on a smaller scale...then maybe it really was that close. Who do you think the system was unfair to? Clay because he didn't win or Ruben because he could have lost?


Posted by: Skittles

quote:
Originally posted by cello
Unfair to their future careers, probably not.


That much is certain. Clay's single is still number one on Amazon, even though he "lost" and his CD single is getting released a week after Ruben's single, which is currently 4th.


Posted by: Skittles

quote:
Originally posted by mask2343
If the text messages really did decide the vote, then I would wager that it also represented the entire nation on a smaller scale...

I doubt that. Weren't text messages only accepted from AT&T wireless customers? If so, then it's still not a fair representation of the vote.

quote:
Who do you think the system was unfair to? Clay because he didn't win or Ruben because he could have lost?


Yes.


Posted by: David Platt

quote:
Originally posted by Crimsonblake
<snip>

Whose definition of normal am i using? Society, Nature and religion. That covers about everything and anything. Why society? It's still illegal in 90 percent of states to have a gay marriage.


<long, well-thought out post deleted. It's not worth my time.>


Posted by: ufo4sale

the reason that all the text messaging votes went through is because they pay for there votes.


Posted by: Lori

Girls! You're all pretty! :D

Seriously, this has ventured a bit far afield, eh? If you want to talk about morality, you need to take this to the Happy Hour. If you want to talk about AI, carry on.

If this thread continues to not be about American Idol, though, it will get closed.


Posted by: esperantisto

Finally!! Some people make it a point of turning every thread into an attack on someone.


Posted by: Todd76

A fairer system would have been to have one number to call and then press 1 for Ruben and 2 for Clay once you get through.

Even better would be for the calls to be outbound so that nobody could vote more than once (using random digit dialing with a recording that says press 1 for Ruben and 2 for Clay). People would call in to put their number in the database as being interested in voting. One thousand votes (or even 100) using this method would be a lot more accurate than 24 million the way they collected them.

I highly doubt that any fair voting system would ever register a vote as close as the outcome they described. If they wanted to maintain any credibility, they shouldn't have announced how close the votes were the last two weeks.


Posted by: ourdoc

quote:
Originally posted by Todd76
Even better would be for the calls to be outbound so that nobody could vote more than once (using random digit dialing with a recording that says press 1 for Ruben and 2 for Clay). People would call in to put their number in the database as being interested in voting. One thousand votes (or even 100) using this method would be a lot more accurate than 24 million the way they collected them.


Unfortunately that wouldn't work either, mainly because the average household has more than one person in it, and each person should get to vote..


Posted by: ourdoc

I will say that the way they're doing it now has got to be better than Star Search. I hate it when they say America Vote, but only those in Eastern and central time zones can vote. Wake up CBS.. That's not all of America!


Posted by: FourFourSeven

quote:
Originally posted by SkittlesDFW
Sorry, but the voting system has already been described in earlier posts, and is quite obviously unfair.

Whoops! Not quite sure how I typed the word "not" after definitely. I clearly agree that the voting system was entirely unfair...

Brain freezes... doh!


Posted by: Skittles

quote:
Originally posted by FourFourSeven
Whoops! Not quite sure how I typed the word "not" after definitely. I clearly agree that the voting system was entirely unfair...

Brain freezes... doh!


I was kinda wondering about that :) BTW, sorry if I sounded harsh, that wasn't my intention.


Posted by: Todd76

quote:
Originally posted by ourdoc
Unfortunately that wouldn't work either, mainly because the average household has more than one person in it, and each person should get to vote..


The average household also has more than one phone number, especially counting cell phones.




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