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Stargate SG1 question...
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Posted by: BrettStah
OK, I had always understood that once a wormhole was established, anyone (or anything) from either side of the wormhole could travel through it to the other side.
However, I watched the episode where they strongly implied that this isn't the case... some of the SG1 team is stuck on a planet with a broken DHD. Once they don't report in on time, the folks at SGC establish a wormhole and are able to communicate with them (audio and video feed), and then McNeill (who has his brain full of all knowledge from "the ancients") is able to come up with directions on how to fix the DHD, and they send the directions to the people who are stuck on the other planet, and they fix the DHD, and are then able to successfully dial home.
So are the wormholes one-way?
Posted by: KnightShade
Wormholes have always been one-way (except for radio waves apparently).
Posted by: dcheesi
What I wonder about is why it is one-way. Is it due to physical laws of the wormhole, or simply gate design? I think the show has implied that (at least in Carter's opinion) it's a physical limitation. However, this assymmetry seems less likely to me than an explanation based on logistics and signal integrity.
We know that the gate system itself handles de/re-materialization of objects sent through the gate; all that goes through the wormhole is an energy signature. This being the case, there should be no fundamental difference between two-way travel and two-way EM communication. However, I would think that allowing two-way travel would lead to problems when two complex energy streams cross each other in the wormhole (simultaneous two-way travel). This is similar to the problems caused by transmitting electronic signals both ways on one wire (pair); it's a lot harder to isolate the received signal from the transimtted one. Therefore, maybe the gate itself blocks travel just to simplify the transmission process (which is pretty safety-critical, after all). Simpler EM tranmissions can be sorted out by the receivers on either end, and anyway it presumably bypasses the de-materializer(?).
And yes, I know, I'm nerding out :D In the immortal words of MST3K: "Just repeat to yourself 'It's just a show; I should really just relax!"
Posted by: BrettStah
Yeah, I realized this was a real "Look! I'm a geek!" type of question but it bugged me. I just never recall the one-way nature being mentioned before, but I haven't seen all of the episodes either... Do we know what happens if you try to travel through the wormhole in the wrong direction?
Posted by: rickertk
I don't know what happens if you try to travel the wrong way. I also don't know when they first discussed the one-way nature, in dialog. However, they were consistent with this from the very first - in "Children of the Gods", the first episodes of SG-1, when Apophis gates into the base and attacks/abducts the staffers on guard there, you can see that the gate opens, they come through, then the gate is off, then the gate is on again as Apophis and his crew leave. How they left without a DHD is unclear to me, but there are possible methods you see at various times throughout the series.
Keith
Posted by: Drazi
Favorite is Thor's method. He came to the base, then when he left he raised his hand which had one of them stones and the gate just turned on. No dialing, no whoosh, it was just there.
Posted by: BeanMeScot
The Noks create a wormhole the same way. No annoying dialing.
Posted by: Jonathan_S
The show has been consistant about the no two way travel, it is mentioned a couple of time during most seasons.
However what they have shown a couple of times is someone, usually O'Neill, sticking their hand through the event horizon and then drawing it back.
Going into geek mode I'd assume that the hand was dematerialized by the gate interface but not sent, then when he pulled it out the gate rematerialized it from the buffer. So on the far end you wouldn't see a hand waving around then vanishing...
I'd assume that if you tried to enter a stargate from the destination side you would just walk through the event horizon and out the back of the gate. The gate just wouldn't dematerialize you since it couldn't sent you. However standing in or very near to an open event horizon is probably not safe since if something came though it would probably be very messy for both you and it...
One thing the show hasn't shown (to the best of my memory) is what happens if you dial out a wormhole then walk through the stargate from the back. i.e. the side away from the DHD. It would probably just work the same as walking through the front, I just don't think it has ever been shown.
[Some of this information about how the (de)materialization and buffers work is explained (or at least mentioned) in the episode "48 Hours" Season 5 episode 14. This episode also explains that a real DHD has extra safety features that earth's dialing computer lacks.]
Posted by: HTH
I think that it doesn't dematerialize you until you've gone through it completely, but you can be partially inside the event horizon and still be matter. The gate can be held open at the destination end with something penetrating the event horizon, perhaps indefinitely. It can be shutdown at the transmission end even if something is partially through the gate (took off part of a person's head). An outgoing wormhole has a limited duration it can be maintained.
Time distortion effects can travel back through a wormhole, as can gravitational effects (episode with the black hole).
An episode has had a character killed by going out on an incoming wormhole (SGC member playing god with the natives, first season).
Posted by: barclay
quote:
Originally posted by BrettStah
Yeah, I realized this was a real "Look! I'm a geek!" type of question but it bugged me. I just never recall the one-way nature being mentioned before, but I haven't seen all of the episodes either... Do we know what happens if you try to travel through the wormhole in the wrong direction?
You dematrialize and don't rematerialize anywhere if you try to go through the wrong gate.
They covered this in at least one episode that I can recall. In "A Hundred Days" Teal'C has to go through the gate to somewhere that the gate was flat, pointed up. He had to latch on to something on the otherside to prevent himself from falling back into the gate.
Posted by: kdmorse
More specifically, they sent a probe through before teal'c in that episode. It emerged through the gate, gravity got it, and it fell back in going the wrong direction, and was never heard from again.
As to sticking your hand in, they made it pretty clear that the gate is pretty intelligent about when to dematerialize an object. If you stick just your hand in, your hand still exists. In fact, you continue to exist until the entirety of your mass has passed through the event horizon, in which case you are dematerialized as an entire object. Up until that point, you could step backwards and emerge unaffected.
You can also do the same thing going the wrong way, and it appears to have the side effect of keeping the gate open. (As shown in Shades of Gray, and other episodes). O'Neill returned to the SGC, and placed his arm and gun through the event horizon to hold the gate open. Once he removed his arm, the gate (having no other matter to send/recv) closed immediately. I believe his words were "I'll be holding the door open from the other side, so you can't dial anywhere else".
-Ken
Posted by: Rob Helmerichs
quote:
Originally posted by HTH
I think that it doesn't dematerialize you until you've gone through it completely.
This would have to be the case, otherwise everybody would be killed when half of their body dematerializes.
I would say that the dematerialization doesn't happen until the "water" surface is intact again, although that would cause problems with multiple people going through. Probably the "water" is smart enough to know when a particular object has completely entered the field, regardless of other objects that might have partially entered.
(The fact that we are actually having this conversation both pleases me a lot and frightens me a little... :D)
Posted by: HTH
The one thing that doesn't jive with me though is (I think) from the movie where they send through a probe on a cable, and the cable is unwinding rapidly as the probe travels to Abydos. But then there are many inconsistencies with the movie (no DHD on Abydos in the movie and symbols aren't constellations in the series, no symbiotes in the Jaffa in the movie and Ra isn't noted to be similar at all to the Asgard in the series).
Posted by: barclay
The movie and the series aren't really all that closely related. Same basic plot lines, but there are lots of minor changes. (Even more if you watch the extended version on the DVD)
Apparently the producer of the movie had a very different idea for what to do with the story (he had wanted to do a triology of movies) but lost that ability when MGM bought the rights to Star Gate. He's rather pissed about the series.
Here are some comments from the producer of the movie.
Posted by: jones07
Thanks for the link. Entertainment seems to be a tough business. Having your hopes and dreams bought right out from under you.
Posted by: BrettStah
So when they send a remote-controlled probe (a MALP, IIRC), they cannot retrieve it unless someone follows it to the destination planet and then dials home? How would it ever be known if the DHD device on the destination planet was fully functional?
Posted by: Rob Helmerichs
quote:
Originally posted by BrettStah
So when they send a remote-controlled probe (a MALP, IIRC), they cannot retrieve it unless someone follows it to the destination planet and then dials home? How would it ever be known if the DHD device on the destination planet was fully functional?
Signals can come back through the gate (which is how they communicate, and get video from the drones).
Posted by: tmtech
Actually it's very simple...
the way the gates work is tied directly to RATINGS. In the world of TV there is a hierarchy. Physics is very low on the hierarchy. Ratings are very high. So when trying to execute gate travel the laws of ratings are applied with a small corrective physics piece added.
Sorry, but as much of a geek as I am this thread just seemed bizarre!
Posted by: JYoung
I think that SG-1 has made an excellant effort in being consistant in how gate travel works.. (unlike certain other series)
My feeling that that energy (radio waves, etc) can be transmitted both ways because there is no conversion involved. When doing matter conversion, one gate is set to convert matter to energy and the other is set to convert energy to matter. They have distinct modes and can't change modes in midstream (perhaps due to insufficient storage).
Posted by: BrettStah
quote:
Originally posted by Medieval Guy
Signals can come back through the gate (which is how they communicate, and get video from the drones).
I meant retrieving the actual probe once they've finished analyzing the audio/video it's sent back...
Posted by: Rob Helmerichs
quote:
Originally posted by BrettStah
I meant retrieving the actual probe once they've finished analyzing the audio/video it's sent back...
Ah, sorry, misread the question.
You're right; they have to go there. I think the DRDs are pretty much indestructible; they only won't work if they've been physically damaged, and they can check that remotely through the drones.
Posted by: JYoung
quote:
Originally posted by Medieval Guy
Ah, sorry, misread the question.
You're right; they have to go there. I think the DRDs are pretty much indestructible; they only won't work if they've been physically damaged, and they can check that remotely through the drones.
especially since they got burned by the damaged DHD in Torment of Tantalus... ;)
Posted by: lordargent
The gates use a TCP/SG protocol. It works in the following manner.
1) At the origin gate you enter the SG address of the destination gate along with the point of origin address.
2) Passing the event horizon of the gate puts you into a hyperdimensional stasis room (think of this as a buffer).
3) Once the event horizon is no longer disturbed, the matter in the buffer is converted into energy.
4) The energy in the buffer is encrypted using the origin gates private key.
5) The energy in the buffer is sent to the destination gate along with the origin gates public key.
6) The destination gate stores the energy in the buffer. It will then recieve a signal from the origin gate telling it the transmission is done.
7) The destination gate uses the public key from the origin gate to un-encrypt the energy and convert it back into matter.
8) The destination gate releases the matter from its buffer.
a) Radio signals (and other forms of energy, such as staff weapon blasts) can go either way because they do not need to be converted and encrypted, they are sent au natural.
Posted by: lordargent
Or, another explanation.
The "wormhole" created by the gates is really more like a "gravity tunnel". Like those water rides at amusement parks. Say splash mountain.
Think of the origin gate as the top of splash mountain.
Think of the destination gate as the bottom of splash mountain.
You may only travel one way, because the "gravity tunnel" is one way.
Light, radio waves, and other forms of energy don't care because they aren't as affected by gravity, and hence, can travel "up" the tunnel.
If you put your hand in and pull it back out, that's not enough to make your body "fall". Likewise, since it's a "tunnel" you don't get part of your hand sticking through the other side.
Only when enough of your body has crossed the event horizon does the "gravity" take hold and you go sliding down to the other end.
Posted by: Rob Helmerichs
quote:
Originally posted by JYoung
especially since they got burned by the damaged DHD in Torment of Tantalus... ;)
Shutting up, now...
Posted by: bprothero
quote:
The "wormhole" created by the gates is really more like a "gravity tunnel".
This is the best, and most plausible, explaination yet. It also explains why you "fall" through the wormhole at great speeds.
Posted by: JimSpence
It looks like Medieval Guy has had a Farscape moment. "I think the DRDs are pretty much indestructible;" :)
Posted by: kdmorse
This is the best, and most plausible, explanation yet. It also explains why you "fall" through the wormhole at great speeds.
Assuming a perfectly stable connection, you exit the wormhole with the exact velocity that you enter with. There is no acceleration or deceleration involved, which is why people can walk naturally in one end and out the other without missing a step. (Explicitly stated in Red Sky, & Upgrades)
Generally speaking, this is true for all DHD initiated wormholes. The lashup used at the SGC however is not as precise, and sometimes there is a margin for error when calculating the coordinates, which caused somewhat erratic wormhole connections. (Again - such as in Red Sky) Under such circumstances people do start flying out of the gate at odd angles.
Similarly - when the gate is overloaded and jumps from one Wormhole to another erratically (as it did in Solitudes) travelers may pick up a little extra Velocity.
In the movie, well, it was a miracle (by Stargate Physics) that those coordinates even worked at all, causing a erratic connection, and sneezing those poor travelers out.
For the most part, all perfectly internally consistent....
-Ken
Posted by: Element
I have kind of a random Stargate question I can't figure out. Supposedly the gate has 39 symbols on it, and when entering the 7 symbol address, the 7th symbol entered has to be the point of origin. So here's my questions: First of all, how do they know the point of origin symbol on the planets that they visit? I've never noticed it written anywhere on the gate or on the DHD. Secondly, if there are only 39 symbols on the gate, wouldn't that mean there are only 39 possible point of origins that can be entered and therefore only 39 locations they can go to and be able to return (which obviously can't be true).
Posted by: Rob Helmerichs
Element, that always struck me as being truly stupid. I mean, c'mon, the point of origin is where you are! It should be programmed into the Gate during the setup procedure.
That was one piece of idiocy from the movie that, unfortunately, carried over to the series.
Posted by: jhausmann
quote:
Originally posted by Medieval Guy
Element, that always struck me as being truly stupid. I mean, c'mon, the point of origin is where you are! It should be programmed into the Gate during the setup procedure.
That was one piece of idiocy from the movie that, unfortunately, carried over to the series.
Who are you to question the ancients?
The requirement of entering the point of origin is a security feature (aka a plot point), preventing unauthorized alien use. If you're an advanced or reckless race you can bypass security protocols...
A more plausible explanation deals with the gates being extremely flexible, being able to be used from a non-stationary object (mother ship).
Posted by: JYoung
quote:
Originally posted by Element
I have kind of a random Stargate question I can't figure out. Supposedly the gate has 39 symbols on it, and when entering the 7 symbol address, the 7th symbol entered has to be the point of origin. So here's my questions: First of all, how do they know the point of origin symbol on the planets that they visit? I've never noticed it written anywhere on the gate or on the DHD. Secondly, if there are only 39 symbols on the gate, wouldn't that mean there are only 39 possible point of origins that can be entered and therefore only 39 locations they can go to and be able to return (which obviously can't be true).
You're misunderstanding it a bit. Each gate has 39 symbols on it. There are 38 common symbols on each gate (every gate has the same 38 symbols), the 39th symbol in unique for each gate. That's how it's identified as the point of origin symbol.
Which gives us 3,010,936,384 possible addresses in our galaxy (without getting into the 8 digit addresses that the Asgard use.....)
Posted by: Rob Helmerichs
quote:
Originally posted by JYoung
You're misunderstanding it a bit. Each gate has 39 symbols on it. There are 38 common symbols on each gate (every gate has the same 38 symbols), the 39th symbol in unique for each gate. That's how it's identified as the point of origin symbol.
Which gives us 3,010,936,384 possible addresses in our galaxy (without getting into the 8 digit addresses that the Asgard use.....)
Still pretty silly, though, since that way there's no reason whatsoever to have the point of origin symbol, since the P.O.O. is obviously already hardwired into the gate (since there's only one P.O.O. for each gate). (Maybe we should call it "Point of origin--home," or P.O.O.H.)
I think it's just something stupid the P.O.O.H.-brains who wrote the movie did without thinking, and that the creators of the show carried over without thinking--and now they're stuck with it.
Posted by: Element
quote:
Originally posted by JYoung
You're misunderstanding it a bit. Each gate has 39 symbols on it. There are 38 common symbols on each gate (every gate has the same 38 symbols), the 39th symbol in unique for each gate. That's how it's identified as the point of origin symbol.
Which gives us 3,010,936,384 possible addresses in our galaxy (without getting into the 8 digit addresses that the Asgard use.....)
I guess that's what I was missing, but still I think that Medieval Guy is right. The whole point of origin thing is pretty useless. I guess it's just a way for each gate to have its own distinct symbol, but it seems useless to have to enter it in.
Posted by: lordargent
It's the public encryption key, like I said :D
quote:
Originally posted by Medieval Guy
Still pretty silly, though, since that way there's no reason whatsoever to have the point of origin symbol, since the P.O.O. is obviously already hardwired into the gate
Posted by: lordargent
Then again, it could just be an identifier that's sent along. So that the folks on the other end know who's calling.
(when there's an offworld activation, how the heck do they know which gate it is?)
Posted by: linh
quote:
Originally posted by JYoung
You're misunderstanding it a bit. Each gate has 39 symbols on it. There are 38 common symbols on each gate (every gate has the same 38 symbols), the 39th symbol in unique for each gate. That's how it's identified as the point of origin symbol.
Which gives us 3,010,936,384 possible addresses in our galaxy (without getting into the 8 digit addresses that the Asgard use.....)
Slight wrinkle: In "Serpent's Lair," how was Daniel Jackson able to use Earth as the point of origin (on the goa'uld ship) to gate to the Alpha site? Presumably, the gate that was on the mothership couldn't have had Earth's point-of-origin symbol on it (since the gate itself was taken from another world/goa'uld base; and the symbol for Earth isn't one of the other 38 dialing symbols). So that would make dialing any stargate address impossible wouldn't it?
For reference purposes: http://www.rdanderson.com/stargate/glyphs/glyphs.htm
Posted by: linh
quote:
Originally posted by Drazi
Favorite is Thor's method. He came to the base, then when he left he raised his hand which had one of them stones and the gate just turned on. No dialing, no whoosh, it was just there.
Cassandra was able to open a wormhole without the "whoosh" too in "1969" using some sort of handheld device.
Posted by: linh
quote:
Originally posted by barclay
The movie and the series aren't really all that closely related. Same basic plot lines, but there are lots of minor changes. (Even more if you watch the extended version on the DVD)
Apparently the producer of the movie had a very different idea for what to do with the story (he had wanted to do a triology of movies) but lost that ability when MGM bought the rights to Star Gate. He's rather pissed about the series.
Here are some comments from the producer of the movie.
Here's another interview with Dean Devlin were he goes into more details: http://filmforce.ign.com/articles/365/365034p1.html
Posted by: linh
quote:
Originally posted by BrettStah
I haven't seen all of the episodes either...
For reference purposes, all of the story arcs in Stargate SG-1 thru 6x03 "Descent": http://www.rdanderson.com/stargate/arcs/arcs.htm
A detailed episode guide for season 5 can be found here: http://www.rdanderson.com/stargate/...se/databas5.htm
Posted by: Element
quote:
Originally posted by linh
Slight wrinkle: In "Serpent's Lair," how was Daniel Jackson able to use Earth as the point of origin (on the goa'uld ship) to gate to the Alpha site? Presumably, the gate that was on the mothership couldn't have had Earth's point-of-origin symbol on it (since the gate itself was taken from another world/goa'uld base; and the symbol for Earth isn't one of the other 38 dialing symbols). So that would make dialing any stargate address impossible wouldn't it?
For reference purposes: http://www.rdanderson.com/stargate/glyphs/glyphs.htm
Yeah, I was just thinking the same thing. There must be some other explanation. Either that or the show creators really messed up and hoped no one would notice.
Posted by: BrettStah
Fully realizing that I started this thread, I am still reminded of William Shatner's SNL skit where he was bombarded with "In episode 36, why did you..." questions, and he responded with "Get a life! It's just a TV show!". But like many of you, I like my science fiction to make logical sense in the context of the show...
Posted by: stevel
My wife wants to know why the only Stargate that rotates is the one at the main base....
Posted by: kdmorse
My wife wants to know why the only Stargate that rotates is the one at the main base....
Because the SGC doesn't have a DHD. The DHD's simply send signals to the gate telling it which symbols to lock in. Notice that when dialing with a DHD, the red chevrons light up just as fast the the dialer can dial. That's not something that we've figured out how to do yet.
On the opposite end of the spectrum, if the DHD is missing or non-functional, the gate can be dialed manually. If the gate's superconductive capacitors are charged, the inner ring moves freely allowing each symbol to be manually aligned with a chevron, and manually locked into place.
In a strange sense, it's exactly like the difference between a rotary phone and a pushbutton phone.
Now, at the SGC they've rigged up what amounts to an automated manual dial. They tell their computer what symbols to enter, and one by one the computer spins them into place, and locks a chevron on each one.
Which is the main reason why the Goul'd can always dial in faster than we can dial back out. We're spinning the symbols round and round, and they're at the other end pushing buttons.
-Ken
Posted by: Jonathan_S
quote:
Which is the main reason why the Goul'd can always dial in faster than we can dial back out. We're spinning the symbols round and round, and they're at the other end pushing buttons
Actually, after Carter modified the dialing code in Serpent's Song ]Season 2, Episode 18] the SGC could dial out faster than the Goul'd could redial.
While spinning the dial is slower than directly entering the coordinates, all else being equal, the Goul'd are restricted to the speed with which someone can hit the symbols on the DHD; with strong enough motors the computer could spin the dial back and forth and still be faster than a Goul'd manually hitting numbers.
Kind of like having a race between a person using a touch tone phone and a computer driven motor dialing a rotory phone. The rotory phone is slower than speed dial, but can be faster than a human dialing.
edited to add
So if they wanted to the SGC could dial out whenever an unscheduled incoming wormhole started to connect, but it would be a bad idea becuase a lot of the time the unscheduled wormhole is an SG team in trouble. But there is no way to know until after the wormhole has been established and radio communication is attempted.
Posted by: Rob Helmerichs
quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan_S
While spinning the dial is slower than directly entering the coordinates, all else being equal, the Goul'd are restricted to the speed with which someone can hit the symbols on the DHD; with strong enough motors the computer could spin the dial back and forth and still be faster than a Goul'd manually hitting numbers.
Wow, that makes no sense. You can hit the buttons every half-second or so; it takes a LOT longer than that for the wheel to spin around.
I think this is just another thing they haven't really thought out very well.
Posted by: kdmorse
Wow, that makes no sense. You can hit the buttons every half-second or so; it takes a LOT longer than that for the wheel to spin around.
I don't buy it either. Generally speaking, a DHD can always outrun the SGC's dialing system. In the entire series they've only gotten a gate in between, what, twice? Once in Serpents Song, and once in There but for the Grace of God? Carter was able to improve the dialing speed once in each reality, that's about it.
I just assume the guy at the other end was dialing lazily. After the pesky humans got one in quicker than he did, I presume he was duly flogged, and replaced with a faster dialer ;)
So if they wanted to the SGC could dial out whenever an unscheduled incoming wormhole started to connect
Actually.. it depends. Thats another terribly minor continuity glitch waiting to be picked on.
You're standing in front of a gate. Someone somewhere else starts dialing your gate. Sometimes you watch the Chevrons light up one at a time as the remote dialer dials, until the seventh comes on, and an incoming wormhole appears. Ok, so... How does the receiving gate know to light up it's first chevron when the dialer has only pressed one button on his DHD. It's like a psychic Start Treck door...
In one case, the team was standing at the DHD when someone started dialing in. (Red Chevrons started lighting up), and the SG-1 team tried to dial faster saying something like "Not if we finish dialing out first". A gate opened, and they weren't sure who opened it first... Ok, Psychic gates aside, it works....
Except all the other times, when there is no warning for an incoming wormhole. Offworld activation is signaled only by all seven Chevrons turning on at the same time, a noise, and a wormhole. Nothing more. No psychic gate syndrome. Makes perfect sense.
Except for the fact that half the time it works one way, and half the time it works the other. (eh, more 75/25).
So apparently the receiving gate is truly psychic, and knows which event would be more dramatic at a given time ;)
-Ken
Posted by: linh
Is it ever explained why the SGC didn't just hook up the DHD that they found in Antarctica to the gate that they're currently using? That would seem to be the most obvious thing to do.
Posted by: JYoung
quote:
Originally posted by Medieval Guy
Still pretty silly, though, since that way there's no reason whatsoever to have the point of origin symbol, since the P.O.O. is obviously already hardwired into the gate (since there's only one P.O.O. for each gate). (Maybe we should call it "Point of origin--home," or P.O.O.H.)
(O'Neil mode)
P.O.O.?
I don't want to think of poo everytime I dial an address...
(/O'Neil)
I view the Point of Origin as a minor security feature to keep less advanced species from using the gates (e.g. Beasts of Burden). You still have to figure the 6 coordinates plus the point of orgin to get the gate to work, something that a more advanced species would have an easier time doing. And/Or it just signals the final symbol in order to differentiate between seven, eight, and nine digit dialing sequences.
quote:
Originally posted by linh
Slight wrinkle: In "Serpent's Lair," how was Daniel Jackson able to use Earth as the point of origin (on the goa'uld ship) to gate to the Alpha site? Presumably, the gate that was on the mothership couldn't have had Earth's point-of-origin symbol on it (since the gate itself was taken from another world/goa'uld base; and the symbol for Earth isn't one of the other 38 dialing symbols). So that would make dialing any stargate address impossible wouldn't
Yes, that stuck out to me when rewatching that episode on the DVDs. I think the writers made a mistake there. Or Daniel misstated, meaning to point out the gate was close enough to Earth to be back on the network or that it's relative velocity was close enough to zero for him to use (the thought of trying to open a wormhole while in hyperspace seems somewhat frightening to me....)
quote:
Originally posted by kdmorse
You're standing in front of a gate. Someone somewhere else starts dialing your gate. Sometimes you watch the Chevrons light up one at a time as the remote dialer dials, until the seventh comes on, and an incoming wormhole appears. Ok, so... How does the receiving gate know to light up it's first chevron when the dialer has only pressed one button on his DHD.
Not psychic, I view that more as a warning system that tells people a wormhole is about come in and they had better get clear of the gate (as we know, getting caught in the backwash can have potentially fatal results).
I do wish they'd be a little more consistant with it though.
(perhaps the Ancients or Asgard upgraded some gates but not others...)
quote:
Originally posted by linh
Is it ever explained why the SGC didn't just hook up the DHD that they found in Antarctica to the gate that they're currently using? That would seem to be the most obvious thing to do.
Two possible explainations:
1. DHDs only work with the Gates they are mated with and you can't just swap one for another (after all, they have different Point of Origin symbols)
2. Security. With a dialing computer, only authorized users can access the Stargate (unless they go and do a manual dial of the gate). Anyone can walk up to a DHD punch in the symbols. Also, the dialing computer allows them to lock out certain addresses (the Aschen homeworld, the black hole planet....)
It does occur to me that if you do a manual dial, you want to be very careful where you stand when you lock chevron 7......
Posted by: kdmorse
Is it ever explained why the SGC didn't just hook up the DHD that they found in Antarctica to the gate that they're currently using? That would seem to be the most obvious thing to do.
They zipped over that quite quickly (and poorly) in 30 seconds in one episode in season 6.
Minor season 6 Spoiler:
Spoiler Alert! (highlight to read)
Someone (Carter I think) mentioned offhand that the Antarctic DHD was moved to Area 51 where it worked for a little while (in Touchstone), after which it expended it's power, and they were never able to make it work again. It became a paperweight for future study. They assumed there was something in the Antarctic site that specifically powered that DHD that that they could not reproduce. Thus more digging, and the setup for a rather silly episode in the Antarctic...
And don't read this, if you haven't seen Season 5:
Spoiler Alert! (highlight to read)
Personally, I think they're covering for the fact that some writer forgot there was a working DHD in storage when they ran themselves ragged trying to get the Russian DHD in 48 Hours.
-Ken
Posted by: JYoung
Please be careful. I (and probably others) watch Stargate in syndication and haven't seen the 6th season yet.
I hope that Sci Fi/MGM will syndicate season 6 like they did with the Invisible Man and the previous 5 seasons of SG-1.
Posted by: kdmorse
Really? I can understand missing Seasons 1-5, being on Showtime. But I didn't expect anyone to have missed all of season 6...
Seriously though, at most I spoiled a 30 second explanation. And the more I think about it, I like *your* explanation better!
So does this mean you'll be avoiding Season 7 next week? Oh the willpower that must take... There's nothing else on tv!
-Ken
Posted by: kdmorse
Just to be clear. Syndication is up to what episode so far, Last Stand? With Fail Safe airing next week?
-Ken
Posted by: JYoung
Thank you.
I can't get DirecTV (ground floor apartment with no Southern exposure) and my cable company is the worst in existance, Adelphia. I can only get Sci Fi if I pony up for their full "Digital" cable package, which I won't do.....
So, in the summer, I catch up on DVDs and actually go outside... ;)
(and they showed Revalations a couple of weeks ago, so I've seen all of season 5. They're repeating Failsafe this weekend...)
Posted by: linh
They just repeated "Summit" (again for 2 weeks in a row now) last night here in the Portland area.
Posted by: lordargent
What was the next glyph again? Perseus, Cetus?
Ahhh crap, I misdialed, gotta start over.
Ok, it was Canis Minor, Gemini, Hydra, Orion
Gate Symbols
quote:
I just assume the guy at the other end was dialing lazily. After the pesky humans got one in quicker than he did, I presume he was duly flogged, and replaced with a faster dialer ;)
Posted by: tanstaafl
I just want to jump in and say I want a keyboard like the one they have in SGC; the one with Stargate symbols instead of letters on the keys.
Yes, I'm a geek. Why do you ask?
Posted by: Jonathan_S
quote:
Wow, that makes no sense. You can hit the buttons every half-second or so; it takes a LOT longer than that for the wheel to spin around.
I don't buy it either. Generally speaking, a DHD can always outrun the SGC's dialing system. In the entire series they've only gotten a gate in between, what, twice? Once in Serpents Song, and once in There but for the Grace of God? Carter was able to improve the dialing speed once in each reality, that's about it.
The person upthread has a good point about the psychic gate phenomena; but I'm going to assume it exists and ignore the problem ;) in the interest of continuing the debate on dialing out to beat an incoming wormhole.
As a I pointed out in my previous post; most of the time the SGC wouldn't want to block incoming wormholes. They consider the iris the main line of defense. Blocking wormholes by dialing out only needs to be done if you don't have an iris or if you know that something will be coming through that can damage, destroy, or bypass the iris.
Also a refinement occurred to me in regards to speeding up the dial out procedure, which may explain why the dialing doesn't appear to have sped up for normal missions.
In addition to trying to speed up the rotation of the dial, Carter could have had the computer search for the gate address with the lowest required movement of the dial. Since the purpose of a fast dial is to prevent incoming wormholes and not to go anyplace in particular you are free to chose addresses which require the least movement to dial.
Similar to how on a rotary phone the number 111-1111 is faster to dial than 909-9000 [remember on a rotary phone 0 is farther than 9], or on a master lock the combo 7, 3, 9 is faster than 32, 1, 27
Posted by: Sirius Black
I have a question that is show related but it gives away spoilers so I'll use the spoiler text.
Spoiler Alert! (highlight to read)
There was an episode on last night where the invisible aliens sent a human child to Earth to warn the Tar'e (?) about rebel invisible aliens. At the end of this episode and after some bonding with O'Neil, the human is sick and about to die. At this point, the good guy Goa'Uls (name escapes me) offer to make him a host for a good guy Goa'Ul and we assume this happens as the last scene is the kid and Carter's dad stepping into the stargate.
Have they ever revisited the kid in another episode?
Sorry to go off topic like this but I have just started watching the show (well within the last few weeks, that is) and I am really enjoying it but I would love to hear the answer to this question.
Posted by: jhausmann
quote:
Originally posted by Medieval Guy
Wow, that makes no sense. You can hit the buttons every half-second or so; it takes a LOT longer than that for the wheel to spin around.
I think this is just another thing they haven't really thought out very well.
Oh, well, if it's things thy haven't thought out very well, the Stargate's got major problems (in the movie and series). All those glyphs on the gate and DHDs are supposed to represent constellations. Here's a couple of problems with that.
1) the earth isn't stationary and neither are the heavens. For example, the earth's axis, the center of which is known to astronomers as the pole of the ecliptic, completes a revolution once every 25,725 years. In 2380 BC, the pole star was Thuban, in 14K years it'll be Vega.
2) the shape of the constellations 10K years ago (actually better than 10K because that's what the cover stones were dated to, in the movie [I believe]. the gate is even older as the series attribute it to the ancients who abandoned the system some time before the goa 'uld claimed it) was not the same as what Jackson saw, when he had his epiphany in the movie.
3) there's only one place in the universe where all the symbols have meaning, at a specific point in time. One would presume this is earth based on the design of glyphs on the gate. But, the gate is made of material that does not exist on earth, so it's hard to accept the fact that the ancients built the gates while residing here. If they built it someplace else, why wouldn't they use the constellations form that location?
Posted by: Rob Helmerichs
Well, they did address the stars shifting over time issue in the series---that's why they had so much trouble getting the gate to work in the first place; IIRC, they finally got to Abidos because the relative position between Earth and Abidos is still roughly the same as it was when the gates were last properly maintained. or other destinations, once they figured out the problem, they were able to program the gate somehow with the adjusted coordinates.
As for the constellations, I think they've pretty much abandoned that idea, haven't they? I don't remember them saying anything about constellations since almost the beginning...
Posted by: RGM1138
quote:
Originally posted by Medieval Guy
Well, they did address the stars shifting over time issue in the series---that's why they had so much trouble getting the gate to work in the first place; IIRC, they finally got to Abidos because the relative position between Earth and Abidos is still roughly the same as it was when the gates were last properly maintained. or other destinations, once they figured out the problem, they were able to program the gate somehow with the adjusted coordinates.
As for the constellations, I think they've pretty much abandoned that idea, haven't they? I don't remember them saying anything about constellations since almost the beginning...
I think that's one of the problems of going from a one-shot movie premise to a weekly series. They were kind of backed into a corner, what with the constellations being etched into the Chapp'i, and all.
And, not to mention, no one has even talked about where they hide the Heisenberg compensator. :)
Bob
Posted by: Mike20878
I just realized something after watching the end of Stargate the movie on tv the other day. If they blew up Anubis' ship at the end of the movie how is he still alive in the series?
Thanks,
Mike
Posted by: kdmorse
That wasn't Anubis they killed, it was Ra.
-Ken
Posted by: Mike20878
I need to watch the movie again sometime... If they only killed Ra, then were was Anubis? I see he is a character in the movie.
Posted by: Jonathan_S
I just did a quick web search. It seems in the movie Anubis was the name and/or title of the head of Ra's Horus guards.
Presumably a position similar to that Teal'c held in beginning of the series; as first prime of Apophis.
Most info I saw assumed that the Anubis of the movie has no relation to the Goa'uld Anubis of the series. Either a coincidence that their names were the same, or another disconnect between the movie and the series.
Posted by: HTH
The series had Ra having Jaffa from other System Lords in his service, including Jaffa from Anubis.
Some spellings: Chappa'ai, Goa'uld, Tau'ri, Tok'ra, Shol'va, Teal'c, Hoktar, Kelnoreem, Oma desala, Zat'n'ktel, Tak'uni'taga'mu'teron.
Posted by: tanstaafl
I just thought of this one....
Whenever a gate is activated, there is that backwash or splash or whatever they call it effect before it stabilizes. If anyone happens to be standing in front of the gate when it occurs then they get vaporized.
Why doesn't the splash effect destroy the iris? Is that ever explained/mentioned?
Posted by: HTH
I thought it was because the Iris is too close to the event horizon to allow expansion, but not so close as to prevent wormhole formation. The same distance doesn't allow matter to reform, but far enough to make the attempt thud against it.
Posted by: linh
Is the backlash only formed for outgoing wormholes? I don't recall seeing one for incoming wormholes. This would make the most sense if the SGC had an iris.
After all, if an incoming wormhole created a backlash, it would destroy whatever was in its path (as seen towards the end of episode where SG1 finds the tretonin and Egeria) -- including the iris.
As for the iris, I believe it's slightly offset to allow an incoming wormhole. I believe the offset of the iris is to allow off world teams and allies to send their GDO signals thru the gate and thus be able to enter the SGC.
If the IRIS had no offset, no incoming wormhole could be formed and the SG teams and their allies wouldn't be able to send a GDO signal/Sagan box signal. Essentially, there would be no way to contact the SGC and the SG teams would be stranded.
edit:
No, I see a backlash formed in "Full Circle" when Anubis dials Abydos' gate to block SG-1's exit.
Posted by: HTH
The expanding event horizon occurs on both ends. Remember when they were sent to the penal planet, and some of the prisoners thought that if you were caught in the EEH of an incoming wormhole you could escape? That's when Carter explained what happens if you're caught in it. (Plus there was the physical evidence of leaving behind a pair of dismembered feet.)
They've tended to only have the Iris closed on an incoming wormhole only when they're under attack via a wormhole, otherwise it is open, they close it, then open it up again on a valid GDO signal.
Sagan boxes are sent through and hit the Iris. They have a special makeup (certain isotopes?) which they can detect forensically later. Each Sagan box has a distinct makeup allowing them to tell who sent it so they know to which world to dial back.
Posted by: linh
I don't believe that the Sagan boxes are physically sent thru the gate. However, instead, the boxes are opened and a unique radiation signature passes thru the gate and the SGC identifies the other person that way.
Posted by: kdmorse
Nope, HTH is exactly correct. They're pitched through the gate and analyzed after they go splat. Each has a unique radioactive signature. Although, I only really remember them giving the one out (to the folks on Sumeria, to give to the Asgard), which conveniently enough is as far as I recall the only one that was actually used.
I seem to recall another, but I can't quite pin it down. Tolan? Tok'ra? hmm...
As to the vortex caused by an incoming wormhole vs a closed iris, the iris is placed so close to the event horizon that nothing can properly form past it (the event horizon that is). This prevents the vortex from getting any momentum, and destroying the iris. This was best explained in A Hundred Days. The meteor impact caused liquefied rock to cool while the gate was open, forming a solid sheet of rock just where the event horizon would begin (just like an Iris). When they dialed back to Eudora, the vortex failed to destroy the Iris-like plate of solid rock. They had to use a particle beam to melt the rock/iris to allow a small pocket to form in front of it. Only once that small gap was formed, could the vortex get it's act together, and create a pocket for Teal'c to climb in to.
Or.......
It works that way because they say it does. But they're consistent about it. So it's all good ;)
-Ken
Posted by: Mike20878
What's a Sagan box?
Posted by: HTH
quote:
Originally posted by Mike20852
What's a Sagan box?
http://www.war-of-the-worlds.org/tivo/SarahSagan.jpg
The Sagan Box is given as a gift to races that are allied with Earth. The Box is illustrated with imagery from the Sagan Institute which symbolizes Earth. It also contains radioactive iridium that has the purpose of being used as a GDO (Garage Door Opener). Sagan Boxes have been given to the people of Cimmeria and the Tok'ra. Sagan boxes were referenced in "Thor's Hammer", "Thor's Chariot", "The Tok'ra", and "Serpent's Song".
(Sourced from The Truth Behind Stargate SG-1: S.
[Edit: hosting image at my own site now.]
Posted by: kdmorse
The image didn't come through, or at least it didn't for me. Just got "Image Hosted by Tripod"
It does work if you paste the url into a new browser, they're probably checking referrer tags.
-Ken
Posted by: Mike20878
Oh, I had a feeling that's what it was. I didn't know it had a GDO though. When was that first explained?
Didn't the Tollan get one too?
Mike
Posted by: JYoung
The Tollan didn't need a GDO as they can walk through the Iris.....
Posted by: linh
The Tollans also have their long range communications device.
Posted by: kdmorse
Oh, I had a feeling that's what it was. I didn't know it had a GDO though. When was that first explained?
It doesn't *have* a GDO in it, HTH just meant that it sorta served the same purpose, without actually exposing us to any danger.
We give someone a big box.
They want to contact us, they dial our address, and toss the box in.
It is destroyed by out Iris, and we determine which box it was, who we gave it too, and what planet that was.
We dial up that planet, step through, and say "You Rang?"
That way, there's no unprotected incoming wormhole at any time. If the box fell into the wrong hands, the worst thing an evil alien could do is get us to come to them, and ambush us.
Although it seems much simpler just to leave alien races a Radio instead...
-Ken
Posted by: WinBear
I don't know why they don't just leave a solar powered transmitter hidden at each gate site so they always have caller ID for gates they've visited.
Posted by: Mike20878
But that wouldn't tell them who is coming through.
Posted by: Jonathan_S
I had a semi-random idea.
The Tollan produced their own stargate, presumably since they were capable of building an entire stargate including the mater rematerializer, they could build a modified gate that would allow an operator or computer to analyze the object in the buffer before allowing re-materialization.
This would be a way to see who is coming though; you couldn't tell where they were coming from but you could see who or what they were. If a group of unexpected soldiers came through or someone sent a large bomb, the monitoring entity could just tell the gate to flush its buffers without rematerializing them.
Or if you wanted to be more humane presumably the buffer could be held until the wormhole closed, then you could open up an outgoing wormhole to an uninhabited planet and dump them out there...
Lots of cute tricks you could play being able to get between the buffer and the re-materialization part. However this behavior seems pretty much hardwired in a normal stargate; except in very rare situations like occurred in "48 Hours".
Posted by: HTH
quote:
Originally posted by kdmorse
The image didn't come through, or at least it didn't for me. Just got "Image Hosted by Tripod"
It does work if you paste the url into a new browser, they're probably checking referrer tags.
Damn. Since I visited the site, I had the good copy in my cache still and didn't notice. I've replaced it with a copy of the image hosted on my own.
Posted by: Mike20878
Here's another question to ponder... Do you think they frequently lose MALPs that they send through to new worlds? If the wormhole is one way and they determine they can't visit a particular world, I would assume the MALP is lost as it can't dial itself home.
Posted by: linh
quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan_S
I had a semi-random idea.
The Tollan produced their own stargate, presumably since they were capable of building an entire stargate including the mater rematerializer, they could build a modified gate that would allow an operator or computer to analyze the object in the buffer before allowing re-materialization.
This would be a way to see who is coming though; you couldn't tell where they were coming from but you could see who or what they were. If a group of unexpected soldiers came through or someone sent a large bomb, the monitoring entity could just tell the gate to flush its buffers without rematerializing them.
Or if you wanted to be more humane presumably the buffer could be held until the wormhole closed, then you could open up an outgoing wormhole to an uninhabited planet and dump them out there...
Lots of cute tricks you could play being able to get between the buffer and the re-materialization part. However this behavior seems pretty much hardwired in a normal stargate; except in very rare situations like occurred in "48 Hours".
I'm a bit surprised that the Tollans would build their own stargate but not add an iris to it. Or at least have one of their ion cannons pointed directly at their gate just in case any enemy troops happened to breach their iris.
I'm also a bit surprised that the SGC didn't tell the Tollans about the Ancients' repository of knowledge so then the Tollans could upgrade their weapons, shields, etc. against a Goa'uld attack. I guess the Tollans overconfidence in their technology and naivete were their achilles heel.
Posted by: kdmorse
Since they built the Gate on a world of their choosing, presumably they felt secure that noone would have the address. They probably did have other defenses in the area, but they were probably relying for the most part on not being found. Didn't quite work.
As to malps, I'm sure they do indeed loose a large number of them. (They've got a whole room full of em). In one episode alone they tossed at least 5 to their doom. I would think that it would be wiser to first send through a RC Car with a transponder on it, before a full-fledged malp. Only send the malp (which is not cheap) through if you get a siglan back from the transponder. Could probably save millions....
Then again, MOST of the time, if the gate connects, there's no problem.
-Ken
Posted by: JYoung
quote:
Originally posted by linh
I'm a bit surprised that the Tollans would build their own stargate but not add an iris to it. Or at least have one of their ion cannons pointed directly at their gate just in case any enemy troops happened to breach their iris.
The Tollan probably have force field emitters around the gate in order to hold anything that comes out of the gate....
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