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TiVo And Gemstar-TV Guide Announce New Business Relationship
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Posted by: jasonl99

Not sure what to think of this, though it is certainly a significant positive for TiVo's future. But Gemstar is an evil company.

Link to article

Posted by: MighTiVo

Reuters didn't have much on it...

TiVo and Gemstar to collaborate, end litigation
Reuters, 06.09.03, 8:18 AM ET

CHICAGO (Reuters) - Gemstar-TV Guide International Inc. and TiVo said Monday they have agreed to collaborate more and end litigation between them.

TiVo, the creator of television services for digital video recorders, will get a patent license from Gemstar-TV Guide.

Gemstar-TV Guide, the leader in television program information, will provide TV Guide-branded content to TiVo.

Copyright 2003, Reuters News Service

Posted by: KermitTheFrog

ooo this could mean that finally the stand alone tivo can have a block style TV guide like the direct TV unit does. :-) I still.. after useing the tivo all these years can't get use to the style they use now.

Posted by: gleffler

quote:
Gemstar-TV Guide, the leader in television program information, will provide TV Guide-branded content to TiVo.

This is a bad thing. TV-Guide branded content is crap. Look at a DCT2000 in an area unlucky enough to use the TV Guide guide. I cringe even thinking of it.

/gleffler

Posted by: walters

quote:
Originally posted by gleffler
This is a bad thing. TV-Guide branded content is crap. Look at a DCT2000 in an area unlucky enough to use the TV Guide guide. I cringe even thinking of it.

/gleffler

Then don't use it (it will be in the Showcases). At worst this is an indifferent thing (and it's definitely a good thing for TiVo to get out from under that litigation, no matter how groundless it may have been). I happen to like some of the TV Guide content on AvantGo, and the TiVo is a better place for me to access it.

Posted by: LoadStar

Unless, as a result of the settlement of litigation, they end up having to put TV Guide logos and start using TV Guide listings instead of Tribune... this is entirely possible too...

Edit: D'OH! Would help to read the article before responding to it! Oh, well, I'll leave this post as a testament to stupidity. :)

Posted by: stevel

Well, the TV Guide listings seem to be more accurate than Tribune's...

Posted by: walters

"The patent license used by TiVo does not require the company to make any changes in its current electronic program guide data provided to subscribers through the TiVo service."

"As part of the agreement, Gemstar-TV Guide will provide TiVo with branded entertainment content that will reside on the front page of the TiVo 'Showcase' so that it can be accessed at anytime."

Posted by: phone1

quote:
Originally posted by KermitTheFrog
ooo this could mean that finally the stand alone tivo can have a block style TV guide like the direct TV unit does. :-) I still.. after useing the tivo all these years can't get use to the style they use now.

I turned the grid style guide off on my DTiVo in favor of the TiVo guide. You get a lot more information per screen than you do with the grid.

Posted by: grecorj

I agree with walters; this may be a really good use of Showcases -- I like the features in TV Guide and would love to be able to see TV Guide's picks for the week as an alternative to TiVolution Magazine. For anyone uninterested it that content, it seems as if it will be a benign TiVo feature.

Posted by: GBL

Plus having an alternative source for program guide information can only help TiVo in obtaining the best deal possible with Tribune.

Posted by: foo monkey

quote:
Originally posted by jasonl99
But Gemstar is an evil company.

EOT.

Posted by: Crrink

Maybe a bit OT, but can anyone give me a quick rundown of why Gemstar is evil? I've seen this mentioned before, but don't know the details.
I have a Sony VCR with a Gemstar guide - it was an awesome thing to have before I got a TiVo, always worked pretty well for me.

Posted by: walters

They're hated among the "information wants to be free" set because of their patent portfolio.

Posted by: Crrink

That's it?
Hmph.
I would've thought here, more than anywhere, that seeking a profit would be an acceptable motivation. That's what TiVo is doing, and it's o.k. with the vast majority of us.

Posted by: jones07

Sounds like lawyer speak to me. Every thing will remain the same. They will end litigation between them which was making only their lawyers money an spending theirs. My guess is the consumer will see nothing different in the way Tivo works

Posted by: jasonl99

They also killed the greatest invention that existed for TV's before TiVo came along: VideoGuide. They had a competing product, StarSight, that asbsolutely sucked by comparison.

They exist primarily to exploit the patent office.

Posted by: phone1

quote:
Originally posted by MarcPerkel
But, for TIvo is does mean that they will have the option of delivering their program guide in a superior format to what they have now, so you can't really blame them.

Would someone care to explain why the grid style is "superior?" If I want to view upcoming programs for the evening starting at 8PM for example, with the grid I have to arrow right for a few channels, then page down and arrow back left, etc.

With the TiVo guide, I just move down one channel at a time and see the entire evening's lineup (and then some) in the window on the right. I hope they don't abandon the TiVo style guide in favor of the inferior grid design.

Posted by: xix_84

quote:
Originally posted by phone1
Would someone care to explain why the grid style is "superior?" If I want to view upcoming programs for the evening starting at 8PM for example, with the grid I have to arrow right for a few channels, then page down and arrow back left, etc.

With the TiVo guide, I just move down one channel at a time and see the entire evening's lineup (and then some) in the window on the right. I hope they don't abandon the TiVo style guide in favor of the inferior grid design.

I think this boils down to the argument of time vs. channel. I think that there are some people who primarily search for content based on the channel - they will favor some channels and disregard other channels because they have little interest in the content they provide. For this approach, the TiVo method of organisation of guide data is best. ("Whats on Bravo tonight?")

For others, they want to watch the best thing that is on right now. For them, the TV Guide grid is better - just watch it scroll, identify the show that has most appeal, and switch to that channel.

Now, TiVo users probably don't watch much 'live' TV, so determining whats the best thing on right now is a lower priority :- there is always something in Now Playing.

Hence, FWIW I believe TiVo has the right guide display approach for their users.

Posted by: TiVoPony

quote:
Originally posted by xix_84
I think this boils down to the argument of time vs. channel. I think that there are some people who primarily search for content based on the channel - they will favor some channels and disregard other channels because they have little interest in the content they provide. For this approach, the TiVo method of organisation of guide data is best. ("Whats on Bravo tonight?")

For others, they want to watch the best thing that is on right now. For them, the TV Guide grid is better - just watch it scroll, identify the show that has most appeal, and switch to that channel.

Now, TiVo users probably don't watch much 'live' TV, so determining whats the best thing on right now is a lower priority :- there is always something in Now Playing.

Hence, FWIW I believe TiVo has the right guide display approach for their users.

Hey, I don't remember you in the design meetings... ;)

You're right, it all depends on what you're looking for. And TiVo people tend to watch less live TV than most.

Cheers,
Pony

Posted by: martinp13

I would prefer a grid-style guide because then you can get a little more information than "program title". Type of program, duration, etc. The TiVo-style guide doesn't tell me if it's a sitcom, movie, sports, kids, talk, live/tape, repeat, etc.

Plus I already have a cool 4-way pad to use to navigate around on the grid. :)

Posted by: jb007

It seems the "new business relationship" between TiVo and Gemstar is the result of the settlement of a lawsuit brought by Gemstar against TiVo a few years ago. Gemstar lost similar lawsuits recently, so I suspect the terms were favorable to TiVo.

Here's the link to the story regarding settlement of the lawsuit: http://msnbc-cnet.com.com/2100-1041...d&subj=cnetnews

Posted by: Breacagan

quote:
Originally posted by stevel
Well, the TV Guide listings seem to be more accurate than Tribune's...

Not on my DCT-2224.

Posted by: LoadStar

The advantage of the grid style program guide: you can see usually an hour and a half to two hours of programming on the station you're on and usually a few stations above and below the station you're on. Hence, you'll be able to see more programs within that 2 hour block or whatever fits on screen faster.

TiVo's program guide allows you to see what's on now on a lot of stations and what's coming up in the next several hours on the station you're watching now (or have selected in the guide, either way). TiVo's program guide allows you to see further out into the future quicker, but takes longer to browse around since you only see a single channel's worth of upcoming programs at a time.

Better put: Grid program guides typically show the channel on the row, and the hour on the column. Say you have a program guide that has 5 rows and 5 columns at a time - 2.5 hours of programming for 5 channels. Given this, on each screen you can see 25 "blocks" of programming. (5 rows is conservative - this could be expanded to fill the full screen.) Paging up and down would show a full new set of 25 "blocks" of programming.

Compare this to TiVo's program guide. TiVo's program guide shows 16 "blocks" of programing - 8 channels worth, and on the currently selected channel, 8 blocks of programming (where the blocks are variable lengths of time). You can see further into the future this way - but to see what's coming up on all channels, you have to go, one by one, to each channel. Paging up and down skips over channels, unlike with the grid-style.

I far prefer the grid-style program guide. I wish now that the Gemstar lawsuit is settled that they could implement grid-style - but then I realize that more than likely, even if they did, I probably wouldn't see it on my Series 1, because likely TiVo won't be updating the software for S1 anytime soon.

Posted by: RGM1138

quote:
Originally posted by stevel
Well, the TV Guide listings seem to be more accurate than Tribune's...

Actually, I've noticed that on occasion too. Especially in the area of last minute programming changes.

Of course, that probably has a lot to do with the TV Guide updates constantly flowing down the cable pipe into the digital box, as opposed to collecting everything in a once-a-day phone call.

Bob

Posted by: LoadStar

quote:
The patent license used by TiVo does not require the company to make any changes in its current electronic program guide data.

quote:
Shell said TiVo had a period of "less than six months" to begin to both ship new units and deliver upgrades to old units with the TV Guide brand in both the TiVo program guide and the information bar that pops up when a channel is changed.

Which is it - they don't need to make changes, or they need to change it to include the TV Guide brand?

And if they start using the TV Guide brand - are they going to have to use the TV Guide listings, or can they continue to use Tribune?

I know you may not be able to say much, Pony (or TiVoDataGuy, or TiVo_Ted for that matter), but any heads-up? Which is it going to be?

Posted by: TiVoPony

quote:
Originally posted by LoadStar
Which is it - they don't need to make changes, or they need to change it to include the TV Guide brand?

And if they start using the TV Guide brand - are they going to have to use the TV Guide listings, or can they continue to use Tribune?

I know you may not be able to say much, Pony (or TiVoDataGuy, or TiVo_Ted for that matter), but any heads-up? Which is it going to be?

I don't believe the two statements are mutually exclusive.

One mentions branding, the other data. But you're right, I don't have details to share at this point.

Pony

Posted by: walters

Ouch. Well, I guess the branding changes are real. If it's anything like the DirecTV branding we combo folks recently got on our program guide and channel banner, it's not too much to worry about, though.

Posted by: Michael R

6/9/2003 4:40:00 PM

SAN JOSE, Calif., Jun 09, 2003 (AP Online via COMTEX) -- TiVo Inc. and Gemstar-TV Guide International Inc. Monday said they ended a court battle over the interactive program guide used in TiVo's digital video recorder.

http://cbs.marketwatch.com/tools/qu...t=1&symb=&guid={0B64D82A-82FD-43FB-B251-712BA090FF32}&siteid=mktw

Posted by: rogo

I like the grid better. No reason, I just like it. Superior? Nah. I just like it.

If someone else likes the Tivo-style guide better, I say, "More power to 'em."

In the end, less litigation is a good, good thing for Tivo. So this is a good, good thing. If it means more content so long as we don't have to put up with *unwanted* advertising, then all is well.

Mark

Posted by: trainman

quote:
Originally posted by stevel
Well, the TV Guide listings seem to be more accurate than Tribune's...

Not that I've been doing a scientific survey over the 2-plus years that I've had TiVo, but there have been a lot more instances of TiVo recording the correct show while the TV Guide banner on my digital cable box listed something else (indicating TiVo's Tribune data was better) than the other way around.

Of course, what I really want to know: can TiVo subscribers get a discount on a subscription to TV Guide now?

Actually, maybe I don't want to know, since I just sent them a big check to renew for three years. Yes, I'm insane. :rolleyes:

Posted by: Willin

It sounds to me like the TV Guide data could be used for the TiVo Basic service that will start popping up in the new devices coming soon. Makes sense that they could get the 3 days worth of data just like other GUIDE Plus+ devices do. TV Guide gets to slap there logo and other advertising up there and TiVo isn't wasting resources on people who aren't paying for service (yet). Getting rid of the annoying TV Guide banner is going to be a huge incentive to get people to sign up for the TiVo Full service.

Posted by: Breacagan

quote:
Shell said TiVo had a period of "less than six months" to begin to both ship new units and deliver upgrades to old units with the TV Guide brand in both the TiVo program guide and the information bar that pops up when a channel is changed.

Puke. Vomit. Wretch. I already have a TV Guide banner that fills at least a quarter of the screen every time I change the channel, and I'm not even using their product. Of course, I completely ignore it and any advertising on it, except that I do notice that it is inaccurate about the upcoming program with almost alarming frequency.

Posted by: Jabberer

quote:
Originally posted by jasonl99
...the greatest invention that existed for TV's before TiVo came along: VideoGuide.

My goodness that was a great item. Bought it the first day it was available at my local Radio Shack and completely loved it. I was very, very disappointed to see it go - great customer service too.

As for the TV Guide thing - peachy, just what I needed, an electronic version of Cheers an' Jeers. Probably put in something sick like the stupid horrorscopes (misspelling intentional) as well... ;)

Additionally, isn't TV Guide owned by News Corp (it was once, not sure if it still is)? If so, gee, more Murdock in our lives...yippie...

Posted by: michaelallroy

i don't mind add'l showcase content, but i've found the tivo guide data to be much more accurate than the guide data provided by tv guide via comcast, and even more accurate/informative than the guide data that can be obtained at tvguide.com. not to mention the fact that the way the tivo guide is set up is vastly superior to the setup of the tv guide onscreen guide. i will only have a complaint if the deal requires tivo to scrap the current guide in favour of a tv guide one.

Posted by: Leon WIlkinson

To bad TiVo couldn't strip info from the TV Guide Channels "which is in most markets" to use that for service data.

Would it be possible to have 1 week of guide data run on those channels every so often, say every 5 hrs so TiVo could just receive data when it was free. If all parties was ok with it, could this also not be used to recieve all the showcase advertisements?

I know the encryption key is still needed to protect the product.

Cable companys could use this also. On the DVR's with TiVo inside.

Posted by: Joe Siegler

quote:
Originally posted by phone1
I turned the grid style guide off on my DTiVo in favor of the TiVo guide. You get a lot more information per screen than you do with the grid.

Not only that, the grid is god awful slow. I can't understand how anyone can realistically use the thing. Or how such an unusable thing can even be allowed to be in there in the first place.

Posted by: Msmcpa

Another vote for the grid/DTV style. The problem I have with the Tivo style is you can't tell if a show is in progress. eg, if your looking at all the HBOs, for 9 o'clock, you can't tell which movies started before 9. Or am I missing something?

Posted by: tgibbs

quote:
Originally posted by jasonl99
Not sure what to think of this, though it is certainly a significant positive for TiVo's future. But Gemstar is an evil company.

Yes, Gemstar is pretty bad. There was an earlier product VideoGuide, that had software design nearly as good as TiVo's (and a better remote), although it worked by controlling a VCR and got its program info via pager. Gemstar bought them up and discontinued the service, leaving their own far inferior products unopposed.

Posted by: tgibbs

I like a grid because it is less "modal." The natural way for me to look at listings is not to scan by time or by channel, but to constantly switch back and forth between these two ways of moving through the listing. The two dimensional arrangement of a grid offers both options to me at all times, while I find TiVo's modal one-dimensional listings very constricting and annoying. Especially if there are buttons to rapidly page backwards/forwards by one-day increments, a grid becomes very efficient.

Posted by: rasheed

quote:
Originally posted by GBL
Plus having an alternative source for program guide information can only help TiVo in obtaining the best deal possible with Tribune.

I think in reality, the TiVo system is very tightly connected to the Tribune data. It would be possible to create a system that could support the TV Guide data, but I am not sure if that is a high priority. I don't think this aspect will be exercised unless there comes a time where Tribune has significant guide data problems. Having watching Tribune data for more than two years, it seems very effective compared to TV Guide. I think the one area of advantage of TV Guide is in lineups because TV Guide is the defacto for cable systems (either TVGOS channel or digital boxes).

What would be a "high priority" from my perspective is to get TV Guide Editorial contact into the TiVo and add any functionalty that previously was seen as off-limits because of Gemstar's bazillon patents.

Rasheed

Posted by: ourdoc

I look at it this way, you'll have a choice, which is always good for the consumer, TiVo will probably get advertising in TV guide, which will help TiVo, and maybe even in the future, using TV Guide on the net to remote schedule shows. I think their online grid is much better than single channel or search that the online scheduling has now. I always use TV Guide online, then go to remote scheduling to do it. Would be nice to only have to click on one link..

Posted by: LoadStar

chris1, Pony's already said earlier in this thread that he can't say anything really at this point, but it does look like they'll have to add a TV Guide/Gemstar logo to the channel guide and status bar.

He did drop the hint that "branding" may or may not be directly connected with "content," an interesting item to think about.

Posted by: MichaelK

i picked up on the hint too about content and logo being not necessarily the same.

But i cant imagine that tribune sits around nicely when i hit the display button and up pops their data next to TV guide's logo.

Interesting to see how it shakes out.

Posted by: mbernste

quote:
Originally posted by Jabberer

As for the TV Guide thing - peachy, just what I needed, an electronic version of Cheers an' Jeers.

Anyone with a Motorola DCT-2000 series box and the TV Guide IPG already gets this. Actually, its the only thing worth clicking on.

Posted by: pv

I was really hoping that tivo could hold out long enough to beat gemstar over the head in court (clearly, tivo would have won - Gemstar has never won a case in court), and finally end them as a company. Oh, well. PV

Posted by: rogo

Odd that people who like the grid find little reason to bash the tree. But those who like the tree need to rant about the grid.

Hmmmm....

Posted by: Sirwill

Hmmmm, something about less than 6 months to ship new units with, and new software to existing units..... Could this mean Some sort of software update for S1 units? If they have to do a software update could we maybe see Folders? I'd think that would be an easy to implement on S1 box, and if they have to do a software release any ways....... Hmmm just a thought.

Posted by: LoadStar

Judging by the way the press release was worded, it sounds like an update would have to be pushed out to every TiVo customer, s1 or s2... s1 probably won't receive much else other than the new logo, as they've pretty much frozen the s1 codebase, but this is just my theory. We'll see, I suppose, within 6 months.

Posted by: rasheed

This article was interesting. If Shell is correct, I think we will see the TV Guide logo on two places:

1) On the guide in Live TV (Perhaps also on the info bar?)
2) In a showcase in the TiVo guide (editorial content -- this is good)

Rasheed

Posted by: devdogaz

Could someone please explain to me what the basis was for the lawsuit by Gemstar and why TiVo would now have to use the TV Guide logo on their system? I read the article in the link and I read this whole thread and the questions I have are:

1. TiVo has not been using the grid style of listing so what would Gemstar have to sue about?

2. TiVo gets its guide data from Tribune Media Services so why would they have to display the TV Guide logo anywhere?

I guess if TiVo decided to switch to the Gemstar programming, that would make sense, but if they keep getting the data from TMS, what would TV Guide be providing to warrant their logo on the software? If this was in some way mandated by the settlement of the lawsuit, what was it that TiVo was alegedly doing in the first place that would get Gemstar all fired up?

Posted by: rogo

Gemstar essentially asserted it has patents on any kind of electronic programming guide. I have no idea how the lawsuit was settled, but understand that someone who believes they have a patent on an EPG, period, would have had reason to quarrel with Tivo.

My sense is pretty strong that everyone wins here.

Posted by: jasonl99

quote:
Originally posted by rogo
My sense is pretty strong that everyone wins here.

Except, of course, the consumer (read: us) who will have probably have more advertising to look at.

Posted by: Breacagan

rasheed may be on to something. I'm willing to withhold judgment until we see what is actually sent our way. Editorial content could make up for any annoying little logo.