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Is Tivo Toast? REad this article
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Posted by: flapbreaker

This article could be pure BS but it is interesting.

http://www.freep.com/money/tech/tivo5_20030605.htm

June 5, 2003

BY DOUG BEDELL
DALLAS MORNING NEWS

Gary Arlen loves his ReplayTV personal video recorder. "But I bet I haven't plugged it in for more than a year now," says the Maryland-based president of Arlen Communications.

It's not broken. The standalone ReplayTV box, which uses a hard drive instead of tape, can still record and store hours of TV programming. And, like machines from competitor TiVo, it can pause live television and zip through commercials.

But Arlen's satellite TV service rendered his ReplayTV unit obsolete. Last year, EchoStar Dish Network produced its own PVR device added it to its receiver box, then offered it virtually free.

"It's really a no-brainer," says Arlen.

With its line of PVR satellite receivers, EchoStar surpassed TiVo to become the market leader with 45 percent of the 1.5 million in use at the end of 2002. And, analysts say, other satellite and cable companies will join the makers of DVD players, media center computers and other electronics in adding PVR functions to their equipment.

It's not a pretty picture for standalone box makers such as TiVo and ReplayTV.

"I'm afraid they're becoming obsolete," said Adi Kishore, an analyst with the Yankee Group.

Chances are, he says, your cable company will soon offer you a PVR box at a cost more attractive than today's cheapest PVRs (about $250 or more, plus at least $250 for a lifetime subscription to electronic programming guide updates). Even now, EchoStar customers can upgrade to a PVR for a onetime fee of $150; new customers can get one for $50.

TiVo, which has about 625,000 subscribers, says it expects to approach 1 million customers by the end of this year. Still, that is a long way from the mass adoption anticipated by its ardent fans.

"If you go into Best Buy or Circuit City to take a look at one of these things, the retailer often can't explain it very well," says Arlen, a longtime analyst of new media trends.

As a result of poor sales, TiVo and ReplayTV have started licensing their technologies to other consumer electronics makers. TiVo recently added home networking components to its software, allowing the entertainment center to share digital photos and play digital music. It also began offering TiVo Basic, a service that can be included in DVD players and other components.

But competition is building.

Comcast recently said it will try out an all-in-one Samsung PVR cable box that uses existing cable lines to distribute video to other cable-connected televisions around the house. Other cable box makers -- Motorola, Scientific-Atlanta, Pioneer and Pace -- are producing PVR units.

News Corp. CEO Rupert Murdoch has said he'll use PVRs to vie with cable's video-on-demand services, now that his firm has taken over DirecTV satellite television.

Not to be left out, Microsoft and computer makers are incorporating PVR capabilities in software and hardware systems designed to work as a household's central media server.

Add it all up, and standalone PVRs face a fuzzy future.

Arlen says the upcoming flood of PVR-equipped electronics could even wash away TiVo's brand identity. "There's going to be confusion here," he said.

Posted by: phone1

Yes, the demise of TiVo yet again.

Did I miss something or is this writer totally unaware of DTV's DirecTiVo receiver? :rolleyes:

Posted by: dbett

quote:
Originally posted by phone1
Yes, the demise of TiVo yet again.

Did I miss something or is this writer totally unaware of DTV's DirecTiVo receiver? :rolleyes:

Or Tivo's increasing focus on licensing it's superior software implimentation to these integrated box manufacturers.

Posted by: gleffler

No, it's just that DishPVR is the best thing ever!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!! And it's free!!!!!!!

That means it must spell doom and gloom for TiVo.

:rolleyes:

/gleffler

Posted by: Rob_Merritt

It is a problem for Tivo, thats for sure. However it shouldn't be much of an issue for current Tivo owners, Wide adoption of PVR within cable boxes, while it does exist today, isn't expected to happen till 2005 or 2006. Assuming if ever since some big cable companies, such as comcast, feel PVR is the new napster and isn't likely to be a quick adopter.

Posted by: Larry in TN

So what's the Dish PVR like? How does it compare to TiVo's features and capabilities?

Posted by: rseligman

quote:
Originally posted by flapbreaker
As a result of poor sales, TiVo and ReplayTV have started licensing their technologies to other consumer electronics makers.

As a result of poor sales? Huh? Licensing is a far better business strategy than selling boxes! If it wasn't in their business plan from the beginning, then it should have been. Say what you want about standalone sales, but it's ridiculous to spin as negative TiVo's ability to get Sony, Toshiba, Pioneer, etc. to pay recurring licensing fees! They sell more electronics than Dish does!

I suppose this guy thinks that Microsoft licenses Windows to PC manufacturers only because they couldn't compete in the hardware market. Fool.

Also, yes, Dish gives you a PVR for free. But it's crap. Some people will pay to get a good PVR, some people are happy with crap for free. That's part of the marketplace. The real impact on TiVo will be if Dish ever devotes resources to their PVR to actually make it competitive.

Posted by: Rob Helmerichs

quote:
Originally posted by Larry in TN
So what's the Dish PVR like? How does it compare to TiVo's features and capabilities?

Basically, it doesn't have them. It's little more than a digtial VCR.

Posted by: BlankMan

Doh! So ya think this might be a reason why I have four DirecTV Receivers with TiVo? :confused:

Maybe the author of that article should have done a little more homework.

Does Murdoch now own DTV as the article states? Is that all finalized already?

Posted by: dgh

I've always thought it was more of an English muffin.

quote:
Originally posted by flapbreaker
As a result of poor sales, TiVo and ReplayTV have started licensing their technologies to other consumer electronics makers.

As an example of the author's confusion, Tivo never originally wanted to be in the box business. Licensing was the original plan,

Posted by: PrimeRisk

quote:
Originally posted by Larry in TN
So what's the Dish PVR like? How does it compare to TiVo's features and capabilities?

I have had the DishPVR for close to a year. Comparing TiVo to the DishPVR is like comparing cheap hamburger to a ribeye. Yeah, they're both beef, but that's where the comparison ends.

The DishPVR is unreliable and the user interface is difficult to use. The quality of recordings is great, but the features of TiVo far outweigh that sole factor. The only reason I have kept the DishPVR online is the fact that it has digitlal audio out.

Posted by: dgstivo

quote:
Originally posted by PrimeRisk
The only reason I have kept the DishPVR online is the fact that it has digitlal audio out.

Did you know that the DirectTV receiver with TiVo also has digital audio out (TOSLINK)?

Posted by: Glen dG

quote:
PrimeRisk wrote:
I have had the DishPVR for close to a year. Comparing TiVo to the DishPVR is like comparing cheap hamburger to a ribeye. Yeah, they're both beef, but that's where the comparison ends.
The DishPVR is unreliable and the user interface is difficult to use. The quality of recordings is great, but the features of TiVo far outweigh that sole factor. The only reason I have kept the DishPVR online is the fact that it has digitlal audio out.

quote:
dgstivo replied:
Did you know that the DirectTV receiver with TiVo also has digital audio out (TOSLINK)?

(Yo, TechnoGeek, I'll get this one.)

He has a DishPVR. He uses Dish Network. He may actually prefer Dish Network to DirecTV. Without switching to DirecTV, his TiVo options are standalones.

Posted by: PrimeRisk

Hey Glen - Bingo!

At the time I drop-kicked AT&T Digital Cable, I had the dilemma of going with DirecTV and buying new DTiVos or getting Dish and using my SA TiVo. I was leaning towards the DTiVo solution until I found out I couldn't get locals and a couple of other channels. Dish had the content, so I went with them. A year ago when they offered the DishPVR I figured what the heck, I'll give it a shot. The Dish rep said it was "just like a TiVo", I thought maybe TiVo had licensed to Dish. Well, I was wrong...way wrong. The rest is history.

DirectTV now offers me locals and the other missing channels. Now the dilemma is switching to DirecTV and losing HMO. Doh!

Posted by: Hunter Green

TiVo is doing GREAT!!

Posted by: jdfs

It's funny, they always mention how the Dish has the most PVR subscribers. But I don't know one person who has the Dish. Every person I know and every dish I see is for DirecTV. Maybe it is a geographical thing.

Posted by: blips

I don't know the details but I was just reading on the DBSforums that it seems getting the Dish 508 is more expensive than the DirecTivo. So where is E* giving them away for free?

Posted by: FUBAR

quote:
Originally posted by flapbreaker

With its line of PVR satellite receivers, EchoStar surpassed TiVo to become the market leader with 45 percent of the 1.5 million in use at the end of 2002.
TiVo, which has about 625,000 subscribers, says it expects to approach 1 million customers by the end of this year.

Echostar has 45% of the market??? that makes 675,000 for echo star(based off the 1.5 million stated above), and Tivo has 625,000. That makes for 1.3 million out of the quoted 1.5 million. Is that to say that all the other PVR makers only have 200,000 subscribers?

Maybe somone should take basic highschool math. Last i checked, you had to pass math as well as english to get out of highschool!!!

Posted by: Jabberer

Add to that the fact that Tivo has 703,000 subscribers, which is greater than 45% of 1.5 million...

Also, should you wish to, Mr. Bedell can be reached at dbedell@dallasnews.com

I personally will be writing him asking about his math skills.

Posted by: daperlman

quote:
Originally posted by Larry in TN
So what's the Dish PVR like? How does it compare to TiVo's features and capabilities?

No features and one tuner, but worst of all - terrible software wrought with bugs... unless something changed drastically since I had one.

Posted by: daperlman

quote:
Originally posted by Jabberer
Add to that the fact that Tivo has 703,000 subscribers, which is greater than 45% of 1.5 million...

Also, should you wish to, Mr. Bedell can be reached at dbedell@dallasnews.com

I personally will be writing him asking about his math skills.

Considering Dish 'gives away' their PVR's that is a great market share for TiVo.

Posted by: PrimeRisk

quote:
Originally posted by Hunter Green
TiVo is doing GREAT!!

It sure is! So great that I've just bought two DTiVos and will have them installed directly (no pun intended)!

Posted by: smccune

quote:
Rob_Merritt
Assuming if ever since some big cable companies, such as comcast, feel PVR is the new napster and isn't likely to be a quick adopter

I guess Comcast thought about it and decided it isn't quite the napster it thought it might be, because comcast in Alexandria, VA just started offering the Scientific Atlanta 8000 PVR.

It would be nice it TiVo could ride the advertising blitz Comcast is doing. To me, it seems like an inferior product (just cheaper) but people will go for it 'cause Comcast is advertising the hell out of it. If only the people could see that there is a much better pvr on the market already.

Steven

Posted by: ufo4sale

I hope a lot of people get the Scientific Atlanta 8000. that way once they relize how unreliable it is they will look to see if they anything better out there.

Posted by: PrimeRisk

The problem is people NOT having something to compare it to. Friends of mine thought that their DishPVRs were the best thing since sliced bread until they saw my TiVos hooked up to Dish Receivers! They have TiVos now!

Posted by: dgstivo

quote:
Originally posted by Glen dG
(Yo, TechnoGeek, I'll get this one.)

He has a DishPVR. He uses Dish Network. He may actually prefer Dish Network to DirecTV. Without switching to DirecTV, his TiVo options are standalones.

Yeah, I knew all that when I posted. But since PrimeRisk indicated that he was only keeping the DishDVR in service due to its digital audio, I wanted to point out that DirecTivo (oops - DirecTV with TiVo, or is it the DirecTV DVR now?) had the same ability on the very remote chance he didn't know. I'd hate to not be told something like that because everyone "assumed" that I knew about it.

But it's now a moot point since he's decided to go the DirecTV route. I'll shut up and go back to sleep now...

Posted by: feldon23

Is flapbreaker Toast? REad this thread.

Posted by: flapbreaker

No I am not toast. I am reading. THanks fOr YoUr CoNcErNs. :)

Posted by: dgh

I'll bet he's got an IQ test result that proves he's WAY smarter than toast :D

Posted by: TheToeJoe

Tivo isn't without it's bugs either. I had two series one units. And both of them bit the dust. Out of the blue (about a month or two apart), they shutdown and wouldn't reboot. I suspect it was after a software upgrade. No one could help. They said I had to RMA it.

Anyhow... since series 2 was coming out.. and series 1 wasn't available, they had to get refurbished units from mexico. Three months later, I get one of the units. I'm still waiting for the other. I sent it back last october.

anyhow... I still love Tivo!!!! I want my HMO!

Posted by: rogo

I think it's threads like this that answer the question: Where have all the experts gone?

FWIW.

Posted by: PrimeRisk

quote:
Originally posted by dgstivo
Yeah, I knew all that when I posted. But since PrimeRisk indicated that he was only keeping the DishDVR in service due to its digital audio, I wanted to point out that DirecTivo (oops - DirecTV with TiVo, or is it the DirecTV DVR now?) had the same ability on the very remote chance he didn't know. I'd hate to not be told something like that because everyone "assumed" that I knew about it.

But it's now a moot point since he's decided to go the DirecTV route. I'll shut up and go back to sleep now...

I appreciate the info in any case. You are right, it never hurts to remind someone in case they didn't know and there are a lot of people who read threads like this and find out information they didn't know.