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Fan noise solution report

(Click here to view the original thread with full colors/images)



Posted by: KentSRose

I thought I'd share what seems like a success in my fan noise battle. The fan noise in my HRDV2 was so loud it could be heard outside the room. It was high-pitched, and very irritating. It was driving me nuts, or at least made my already being nuts more apparent.

At first I tried to replace the stock Cofan with a Vantec Stealth. It was also extremely loud, and ran at 12 V, which probably made it even louder.

After studying various old postings on this board, I finally returned the original fan to the case, but added a $6 in line fan speed controller from Comp USA. I put it on slowest speed, and plugged the controller directly into the motherboard (7 V). The controller has a real shreik alarm if the fan stops working all together. I tested it--yes, it does shreik.

It runs a little warmer now. The hottest it's gotten is 49 C in the late afternoon of a summer day, but usually it runs 43 C to 46 C. I guess that's tolerable. I know I might need to make some changes if I add a hard drive, but I think I can probably get by with just a single 120 Gig (I currently still have the original 40 Gig drive). So maybe the current configuration will deliver enough cooling power for that upgrade.

I also moved the HRDV2 from its original position on top of the DVD player to resting on a wooden shelf.

I can't even hear the unit now, except for a tiny hard drive noise if I'm up close, but that doesn't really bother me.

Thanks for all the help from everyone who's posted here.



Posted by: BlankMan

I just installed a Vantec ThermoFlow fan in my HDVR2 tonight and initial reports are that it is a lot quieter than the OEM fan. I'll have to wait and see how it does cooling wise.

Now I don't hear the HDVR2 I hear one of the T60's, but I don't yet know if the fan in that one is getting noisy or if it's the drives I hear. Some surgery to determine the cause will be forthcoming in the near future. And that is one that already has a ThermoFlow in it, so it's either working harder or going bad, but they come with a Lifetime Warranty which I will exercise if I need too.



Posted by: BlankMan

Ok, the HDVR2 with the ThermoFlow fan is holding at a constant 43C with a room temp of 78F, the T60 right next to it with a ThermoFlow is at 44C.

Can't report on the fan noise at the moment with the air running, it's 90-something here today so the air and a room fan stays on for now.



Posted by: tigerdriver

quote:
Originally posted by BlankMan
Ok, the HDVR2 with the ThermoFlow fan is holding at a constant 43C with a room temp of 78F.



When you installed the ThermoFlow, did you mount it like the stock fan--i.e., to blow air into the case? Or did you reverse it so that it sucks air out of the case?

..
Joe



Posted by: super dave

quote:
Originally posted by KentSRose


I also moved the HRDV2 from its original position on top of the DVD player to resting on a wooden shelf.

I


I have my SAT-T60 on top of my DVD/VHS combo, and whenever the DVD player is used the temp in the T60 would go through the roof. I would not turn on the T60 until I felt the top and it was cool. Had the in-laws watch our kids one night, they watched movies, and then turned on the T60. My HD no longer is functioning, waiting for a replacement. Also waiting for my Thermoflow to show up, so this won't happen again. Got to be more careful with this thing.



Posted by: stevel

quote:
Originally posted by tigerdriver
When you installed the ThermoFlow, did you mount it like the stock fan--i.e., to blow air into the case? Or did you reverse it so that it sucks air out of the case?
Say what? The stock fan should pull air from the left side and exhaust it out the right side (power supply).



Posted by: tigerdriver

quote:
Originally posted by stevel
Say what? The stock fan should pull air from the left side and exhaust it out the right side (power supply).


Nope. The stock HDVR2 is an inhaler, not an exhaler. It blows outside air into the case. At least this is the way it is on the four I've look at.

..
joe



Posted by: BlankMan

quote:
Originally posted by tigerdriver
When you installed the ThermoFlow, did you mount it like the stock fan--i.e., to blow air into the case? Or did you reverse it so that it sucks air out of the case?

..
Joe


Whoa! Ah... I never looked, I assumed the OEM fan was exhausting so I installed the ThermoFlow to exhaust. Does the OEM fan really blow into the case?

Inquiring minds want to know.

quote:
Originally posted by stevel
Say what? The stock fan should pull air from the left side and exhaust it out the right side (power supply).

Joe's asking about a HDVR2 not a T60.



Posted by: MikeekiM

quote:
Originally posted by tigerdriver
When you installed the ThermoFlow, did you mount it like the stock fan--i.e., to blow air into the case? Or did you reverse it so that it sucks air out of the case?

..
Joe



The WeaKnees upgrade instructions tell you to install the fan as an exhaust fan... I just double checked the instructions...

I did not take note of the direction of the airflow on the stock fan... I just followed the upgrade directions from WeaKnees...

In any case, the fan is apparently doing it's job... My HDVR2 is running between 41 and 44C...



Posted by: tigerdriver

quote:
Originally posted by mshiu
The WeaKnees upgrade instructions tell you to install the fan as an exhaust fan... I just double checked the instructions...

I did not take note of the direction of the airflow on the stock fan... I just followed the upgrade directions from WeaKnees...

In any case, the fan is apparently doing it's job... My HDVR2 is running between 41 and 44C...



Yes, the chassis fan in Weaknees's advanced cooling pack blows air out.

I did a thermal redesign on my own HDVR2 and on three others. The stock fan on all of these blew air into the case. If anyone out there has a stock HDVR2 with a fan that blows out, please speak up.

..
Joe



Posted by: super dave

What would you recommend for the T60? Exhaust or intake? Stock seems to pull air into the case, but when you think about it, it might make more sense to pull the heat out, like a PC.



Posted by: boxster99t

I tried the Thermaltake and the Vantec Thermoflow fans on my SAT T-60 and the Thermaltake was an improvement over the stock fan, but was noisy if you connected it to the 12 v power supply. If connected to the board connection, it ran slower, wasn't too bad noise-wise but did not cool as well--I was getting low to mid 40's high speed, high 40's low speed with the unit elevated and a piece of paper under it to act as a barrier. With the stock fan the unit was running in the 53-54 range.

Just put in the Thermoflow fan this weekend, and my unit's been at 43-44 degrees with a room temperature of 75-80 depending on time of day, and this fan is quiet enough that I don't notice it. It is the way to go, to drop your internal temperatures.

In each case, I mounted the replacement fans the same way as the stock fan--air blows out the right side of the case bottom (near the power supply).



Posted by: tigerdriver

quote:
Originally posted by super dave
What would you recommend for the T60? Exhaust or intake? Stock seems to pull air into the case, but when you think about it, it might make more sense to pull the heat out, like a PC.


Most designs pull air out of the case, but there are some legitimate reasons for pushing air into the case.

I've never seen a T-60, but I'm assuming that the fan is located in front of the power supply. In this configuaration, an inhaler (blows in) has the undesirable property of pre-heating the air for the downwind components in the system. In other words, the incoming air is heated as it passes over the power supply, which makes it less able to cool the downwind components. This is often done deliberately when the manufacturer is trying to avoid using a larger power supply and feels that the downstream components can tolerate running at a higher temperature.

Since I don't know what the thermal design of the T-60 is, I can't recommend that you reverse the direction of airflow. However, if the HDVR2 is any indication, there really isn't much of a design, so there's lots of room for improvement.


..
Joe

P.S.
I set out to make my 2-drive HDVR2 silent, but quickly found that I had to modify the cooling system to achieve that goal. Attached is a photo showing the results of my work on the HDVR2 (up since 12June03.)



Posted by: tigerdriver

quote:
Originally posted by boxster99t
[snip]...With the stock fan the unit [T-60] was running in the 53-54 range.

Just put in the Thermoflow fan this weekend, and my unit's been at 43-44 degrees with a room temperature of 75-80 depending on time of day, and this fan is quiet enough that I don't notice it. It is the way to go, to drop your internal temperatures.



Just a heads-up to those who are sensitive to noise. At 43-44C, the ThermoFlow TF6025 runs at almost 4000RPM with a noise level of about 31dBA. If your unit has a 60mm 2600RPM fan (e.g., the CoFan in the HDVR2) at about 20.5 dBA, this increase in noise may be intolerable.

..
Joe



Posted by: stevel

The T60/DSR6000/GXCEB0T are all the same - the fan pulls the air from under the disk drives and exhausts it into the PS area, where it escapes (or tries to) out the right-bottom vent holes. I've tried an experiment on my DSR6000 where I've Velcroed a slot cooler (the flat fan intended to go into a slot position on the back of a PC) to the bottom right vent area, powered by an adjustable transformer currently set to 6V. I can detect a lot of warm air coming out of the fan, but it doesn't seem to have made an appreciable difference in the reported temp. I may play with it some more.



Posted by: legalaliens

quote:
Originally posted by tigerdriver
Yes, the chassis fan in Weaknees's advanced cooling pack blows air out. out.

I did a thermal redesign on my own HDVR2 and on three others. The stock fan on all of these blew air into the case. If anyone out there has a stock HDVR2 with a fan that blows out, please speak up.

..
Joe



My HDVR2 blows air out of the back. I assume the theory is the vents on the bottom right (as you look at the unit) are for intake, and the round vent in the rear is for exhaust.

Is yours like this?



Posted by: BlankMan

As noted below in the advisory, you have to take note which way it blows if using the ThermoFlow fan in an HDVR2.
quote:
Originally posted by boxster99t
[snip]...With the stock fan the unit [T-60] was running in the 53-54 range.

Just put in the Thermoflow fan this weekend, and my unit's been at 43-44 degrees with a room temperature of 75-80 depending on time of day, and this fan is quiet enough that I don't notice it. It is the way to go, to drop your internal temperatures.



quote:
Originally posted by tigerdriver
Just a heads-up to those who are sensitive to noise. At 43-44C, the ThermoFlow TF6025 runs at almost 4000RPM with a noise level of about 31dBA. If your unit has a 60mm 2600RPM fan (e.g., the CoFan in the HDVR2) at about 20.5 dBA, this increase in noise may be intolerable.

..
Joe


boxster99t is referencing a T60, you're crossing units here. The T60 uses a Delta AUB0612L which at 3100 RPM has a noise level of 22.5dB, but that's at 12V, what it is at 7V I do not know. And the fan in the T60 is buried in the case and exhausts into the power supply area which acts like a plenum/muffler so you're less likely to hear it. The HDVR2 exhausts or intakes (depending how someone decides to mount it) from/into the case via an opening on the back so either way you're more likely to hear it.

But good info on the dB level of the ThermoFlow @ 4000 RPM, is that extrapolated or measured? And open air or in a T60 or HDVR2? If a HDVR2 intake or exhaust? I ask this last question because mine currently exhausts (ThermoFlow) and I was thinkin it might be a wee bit quieter if it were blowing into the case. But that thought has just lead me to this advisory. Until this thread, I was un-aware of the fact that the fan on an HDVR2 blew into the case.

ADVISORY: If installing a Vantec ThermoFlow fan in a HDVR2 be sure to install it such that it exhausts the air from the case. The ThermoFlow fan works on the principle of the temperature of the air moving over its temperature sensor. If room air, which typically is substanitally cooler then the internal air in the HDVR2, is moving over the sensor and therefore into the case, it will operate at a lower speed, ergo move less air, which may cause the HDVR2 to run at a higher temperature then desired.

I'm very happy with the ThermoFlow in my T60's and HDVR2 and after a year and a half of trying various cooling methods, this was the best I came up with so far.



Posted by: tigerdriver

quote:
Originally posted by legalaliens
My HDVR2 blows air out of the back. I assume the theory is the vents on the bottom right (as you look at the unit) are for intake, and the round vent in the rear is for exhaust.

Is yours like this?



It exhales (blows out) now, but out of the box it was inhaling. Ditto with three others belonging to friends. I've received a number of emails from tivo newsgroup members, however, some of whom have inhalers and some of whom have exhalers. I don't know whether this is a manufacturing error, or Hughes feels that the design is indifferent to airflow direction.

Based upon the testing I've done, it probably doesn't make a great deal of difference which way the stock fan blows unless a second hard drive has been added. However, it would be interesting to know whether there is a correlation between owners who are experiencing high internal temperatures and the direction of airflow from the fan. (BTW, I consider anything greater than 45C to be high).

Oh, by the way, there are intake/exhaust holes on the bottom of both sides on all the units I've seen.

..
Joe



Posted by: tigerdriver

quote:
Originally posted by BlankMan
[snip]


boxster99t is referencing a T60, you're crossing units here. The T60 uses a Delta AUB0612L which at 3100 RPM has a noise level of 22.5dB, but that's at 12V, what it is at 7V I do not know. And the fan in the T60 is buried in the case and exhausts into the power supply area which acts like a plenum/muffler so you're less likely to hear it. The HDVR2 exhausts or intakes (depending how someone decides to mount it) from/into the case via an opening on the back so either way you're more likely to hear it.


But good info on the dB level of the ThermoFlow @ 4000 RPM, is that extrapolated or measured? And open air or in a T60 or HDVR2? If a HDVR2 intake or exhaust? I ask this last question because mine currently exhausts (ThermoFlow) and I was thinkin it might be a wee bit quieter if it were blowing into the case. But that thought has just lead me to this advisory. Until this thread, I was un-aware of the fact that the fan on an HDVR2 blew into the case.

ADVISORY: If installing a Vantec ThermoFlow fan in a HDVR2 be sure to install it such that it exhausts the air from the case. The ThermoFlow fan works on the principle of the temperature of the air moving over its temperature sensor. If room air, which typically is substanitally cooler then the internal air in the HDVR2, is moving over the sensor and therefore into the case, it will operate at a lower speed, ergo move less air, which may cause the HDVR2 to run at a higher temperature then desired.

I'm very happy with the ThermoFlow in my T60's and HDVR2 and after a year and a half of trying various cooling methods, this was the best I came up with so far.



BlankMan,

Thanks for the description of the T-60--as I said, I have never seen one, so I'm not offering advice or observations about them. Your descripition of them, however, makes me predisposed to dislike them.

Also, good catch on the lack of temperature sensing if the ThermoFlow is mounted as an inhaler. I though I posted that warning--but I see that I didn't.

I confirmed the speed experimentally, but the noise figure is taken from the Vantec spec sheet at http://vantecusa.com/tf6025.PDF. Subjectively, the rated noise level seems low, but then manufacturers don't measure vibration noise induced by their fans.

..
Joe



Posted by: BlankMan

quote:
Originally posted by BlankMan
ADVISORY: If installing a Vantec ThermoFlow fan in a HDVR2 be sure to install it such that it exhausts the air from the case. The ThermoFlow fan works on the principle of the temperature of the air moving over its temperature sensor. If room air, which typically is substanitally cooler then the internal air in the HDVR2, is moving over the sensor and therefore into the case, it will operate at a lower speed, ergo move less air, which may cause the HDVR2 to run at a higher temperature then desired.


Actually I'm pondering this now.

If the ThermoFlow is controlling it's speed based on room temp, and let's say at a room temp of 70F it holds the internal temp of the HDVR2 to a reasonable internal temp, say no higher then mid-40C's. At 70F it will be running at it's minimum speed and therefore minimum noise level, plus the fact that it is blowing into the case instead of exhausting should reduce the noise further by a wee bit. So as the room temp increases the rise over ambient internal to the HDVR2 remains the same, but the increase in room temp causes the ThermoFlow to increase it's speed thus moving more air which should decrease the delta (rise over ambient) which may hold the internal temp down to the reasonable level.

So at 77F the ThermoFlow should start ramping up in speed and ergo air flow, but that's already a 4C rise which if the internal temp was at 45C would now be at 49C, so I guess that already exceeds my limit specified earlier.

So if what tigerdriver has pointed out, that for the unit to hold a 43-44C temp the fan is running @ 4000 RPM is at a room temp of ~70F, it is already above it's minimum speed so if the ThermoFlow were running at it's minimum speed it would not move enough air to hold a mid-40C temp to start with. Some experimentation might be warranted.

tigerdriver, what room temp was this measurement made at? Although I think we're already past that point and blowing into the HDVR2 with a ThermoFlow won't work well.

And actually the T60 cooling design is not that bad, one of my T60's holds 44C with the ThermoFlow sitting on a shelf with not much space around it. And as I mentioned, it does substanially reduce the fan noise. And I did some measuring of the internal temp and it's not too bad. If you haven't seen the results it's here under DTiVo Temperature Test.

So more then likely, never mind. (But this was a good analogy to share.)

So at the moment I'm sticking to my advisory.



Posted by: tigerdriver

quote:
Originally posted by BlankMan
Actually I'm pondering this now.

If the ThermoFlow is controlling it's speed based on room temp, and let's say at a room temp of 70F it holds the internal temp of the HDVR2 to a reasonable internal temp, say no higher then mid-40C's. At 70F it will be running at it's minimum speed and therefore minimum noise level, plus the fact that it is blowing into the case instead of exhausting should reduce the noise further by a wee bit. So as the room temp increases the rise over ambient internal to the HDVR2 remains the same, but the increase in room temp causes the ThermoFlow to increase it's speed thus moving more air which should decrease the delta (rise over ambient) which may hold the internal temp down to the reasonable level.

So at 77F the ThermoFlow should start ramping up in speed and ergo air flow, but that's already a 4C rise which if the internal temp was at 45C would now be at 49C, so I guess that already exceeds my limit specified earlier.

So if what tigerdriver has pointed out, that for the unit to hold a 43-44C temp the fan is running @ 4000 RPM is at a room temp of ~70F, it is already above it's minimum speed so if the ThermoFlow were running at it's minimum speed it would not move enough air to hold a mid-40C temp to start with. Some experimentation might be warranted.

tigerdriver, what room temp was this measurement made at? Although I think we're already past that point and blowing into the HDVR2 with a ThermoFlow won't work well.

[snip]

So more then likely, never mind. (But this was a good analogy to share.)

So at the moment I'm sticking to my advisory.



Your advisory is sound. Remember, at 25C (77F), the ThermaFlow turns only 1900 RPM.

..
Joe



Posted by: super dave

I just installed a Thermoflow as well as a new HD from Weaknees. The HD is a Samsung SpinPoint, 7200 rpm. I have the unit offset on top of my DVD/VCR, so that the intake on the bottom left is unobstructed, and cut a small piece of the shipping foam to create a divider on its right. The temp is holding at 46. I am happy, my original HD (5600 rpm) and fan would hover around 50.



Posted by: BlankMan

quote:
Originally posted by tigerdriver
Your advisory is sound. Remember, at 25C (77F), the ThermaFlow turns only 1900 RPM.

..
Joe


Yeah exactly, that's why I don't think an inhaler on a HDVR2 would work. I was throwing this out in case my analogy was flawed in which case a test would be warranted. Thanks for the confirmation, sometimes I spew then analyze further when I think I might have missed or overlooked something which was the case here but it came full circle and I wasn't too far off in the beginning.

I've had quite a bit of experience certifying industrial controls for UL approval, delta temp rise over ambient, short circuit testing, and we're talking about thousands of amps short circuit, and other stuff, and conducted and stood by those tests with the UL representative looking over my shoulder for certification, But I'll never say I never overlooked something, that is why I try to present things open for comment.



Posted by: BlankMan

quote:
Originally posted by tigerdriver
Just a heads-up to those who are sensitive to noise. At 43-44C, the ThermoFlow TF6025 runs at almost 4000RPM with a noise level of about 31dBA. If your unit has a 60mm 2600RPM fan (e.g., the CoFan in the HDVR2) at about 20.5 dBA, this increase in noise may be intolerable.

..
Joe

This got me thinking some more so I have to ask the question, when you're referring to 43-44C and relaying fan performance info is that 43-44C TiVo reported temp or measured exhaust air temp?

I got to thinking and it makes quite a difference. Some people may be put off thinking that 31dB is too loud, which it probably would be, so I did some testing on my HDVR2.

I measured room temperature, HDVR2 exhaust are temp, and recorded the HDVR2 reported temp. I got to thinking about this because the TiVo reported temp is not the temperature of the air inside the case, it's probably the temp of the PCB as monitored somewhere near the CPU to be of most value, or maybe on the CPU die, I haven't looked up this CPU yet. So I expected the exhaust air and ergo the air in the case to be some amount less then the TiVo reported temp.

And it was. In a room whose temperature is 82.9F (28C) the HDVR2 was reporting a temperature of 44C, the exhaust air was 100.9F or 38C. So this shows that this HDVR2 has a delta operating temperature rise of 16C as reported, 10C internal air temp. Which isn't too bad as things go.

So at an exhaust air temp of 38C by extrapolation from the ThermoFlow specs, the fan should be spinning at around 3096 RPM and therefore a noise level 26.54dB, provided the slope of these two items as graphed is linear.

So the difference in noise from 26.5db to 31db is quite substantial since every 3dB increase is twice as loud, sound pressure wise.

I'm toying with the idea of picking up a sound pressure level meter so I can measure this just to see how close theoretical is to actual if they're not too expensive. Have to check out Radio Shack next time I'm near one. I might even have a catalog laying around. I also may connect up the tach lead from the ThermoFlow to a scope or counter or frequency meter to check it's speed to see that also. If I do I'll report back.



Posted by: tigerdriver

quote:
Originally posted by BlankMan
This got me thinking some more so I have to ask the question, when you're referring to 43-44C and relaying fan performance info is that 43-44C TiVo reported temp or measured exhaust air temp?

I got to thinking and it makes quite a difference. Some people may be put off thinking that 31dB is too loud, which it probably would be, so I did some testing on my HDVR2.

I measured room temperature, HDVR2 exhaust are temp, and recorded the HDVR2 reported temp. I got to thinking about this because the TiVo reported temp is not the temperature of the air inside the case, it's probably the temp of the PCB as monitored somewhere near the CPU to be of most value, or maybe on the CPU die, I haven't looked up this CPU yet. So I expected the exhaust air and ergo the air in the case to be some amount less then the TiVo reported temp.

And it was. In a room whose temperature is 82.9F (28C) the HDVR2 was reporting a temperature of 44C, the exhaust air was 100.9F or 38C. So this shows that this HDVR2 has a delta operating temperature rise of 16C as reported, 10C internal air temp. Which isn't too bad as things go.

So at an exhaust air temp of 38C by extrapolation from the ThermoFlow specs, the fan should be spinning at around 3096 RPM and therefore a noise level 26.54dB, provided the slope of these two items as graphed is linear.

So the difference in noise from 26.5db to 31db is quite substantial since every 3dB increase is twice as loud, sound pressure wise.

I'm toying with the idea of picking up a sound pressure level meter so I can measure this just to see how close theoretical is to actual if they're not too expensive. Have to check out Radio Shack next time I'm near one. I might even have a catalog laying around. I also may connect up the tach lead from the ThermoFlow to a scope or counter or frequency meter to check it's speed to see that also. If I do I'll report back.



You're correct--I wasn't allowing for the differential between exhaust air temp and reported temp. Your numbers sound about right. 26.5dB is still WAY to high for me.

BTW, the reported temperature is about three degrees higher than the temp of the heat sinks, one of which (I assume) is the CPU, the other the MPEG decoder. When I'm indicating 37C, these both run about 40C. Hitting the area with freeze spray causes a precipitous drop of the indicated temp, so the sensor is probably located either on the CPU die or on the board between the two chips.

I don't think you'll learn much from a SPL meter. The manufacturer's noise ratings are A-weighted, which pretty steeply cuts off below 1KHz. This includes the rotational frequency of the fan, but excludes outrush noise, vibrational noise, and noise caused by turbulence due to poor blade design. My subjective belief is that these unmeasured components constitute at least half of the perceived noise.

..
Joe



Posted by: BlankMan

quote:
Originally posted by tigerdriver
.....
I don't think you'll learn much from a SPL meter. The manufacturer's noise ratings are A-weighted, which pretty steeply cuts off below 1KHz. This includes the rotational frequency of the fan, but excludes outrush noise, vibrational noise, and noise caused by turbulence due to poor blade design. My subjective belief is that these unmeasured components constitute at least half of the perceived noise.

..
Joe

I tend to agree, although RS has a A weighted and C weighted meter in the catalog it's low end (according to the catalog) starts at 50dB so I doubt I'd find a consumer meter that measures down to 25dB, let alone lower. That is kind of low by most standards and they probably don't see a need to measure things when they're that relatively quiet. (As compared to a Rock Band :D) Since I can hear the DTiVo's now with the room temp in the 80's when there is no other sounds in the room I would be interested to know what the SPL is that I'm hearing, just for my reference.




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