TiVo Community Forums Archives - hated the TiVo's slow channel changing

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hated the TiVo's slow channel changing
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Posted by: Chuckles

The problem is not just that channel changing is SO slow, and that the live TV quality becomes worse than the original signal, but that there is no good way to turn off the live-TV buffering that is causing this problem.

First I figured I would change channels using the cable box remote, but it was still slow because the TiVo buffers the signal.

Then I figured I would turn the TiVo off, and then it would be like a VCR that is off, the signal would just pass through it unmolested. But there is no way to turn off a TiVo without unplugging it, and then the signal doesn't pass through.

Then I figured I would split the signal so I could either watch through the TiVo or bypass it. Well, that sort of works some of the time, but since I have a cable box, I am competing with the TiVo for control of the box. I did not test to see what would happen if the TiVo thinks it's on channel x, and is about to start recording it, but meanwhile I've moved the box to channel y.

It's really irritating to press the up/down buttons and see the TiVo send the enter channel number to the cable box and not just the up/down signal.

I bought the TiVo for its smart recording capabilities, and would be happy to give up the live TV buffering that is a major cause of the sluggishness. But I could find no way to tell the TiVo "don't buffer live TV".

The store gave me my money back. Maybe when TiVo does something about this problem, I'll buy another one.

Posted by: Chuckles

I guess I dislike the attitude "you must change your viewing habits to conform to TiVo". This is the attitude of both TiVo and its loyal users. Why shouldn't people be able to turn off live-TV buffering?

Posted by: jgickler

What type of cable do you have, and do you need the box on the Tivo and the TV? If you could live without premium channels on the TV, and your regular channels do not need a box, just split it before the box, and your basic channels should be viewable on TV without the lag. Tivo has a tuner, so if you want the Tivo to not have premium channels, then just run cable straight to the Tivo, and use the box on the side without Tivo. If you need a box for all signals, just get another box, and uses one on each side. This problem is fixable. Also live buffering should not degrade your signal, unless you have bad wiring, or a poor signal from the cable company. That is not Tivo's problem.

As far as your perception that "you must change your viewing habits to conform to TiVo", give me a break. Tivo was designed for a certain purpose, and if you want the technology, you get all of it, not pieces. Tivo has no obligation to make sure that the product does anything other than what is is advertised to do. If you dont want Tivo to do it's job, then dont get a Tivo, or find your own solution.

I guess I dont have much sympathy for someone whose first posts to this board, are complaining about a product they returned. Take your flame bait somewhere else.

Posted by: Maniacal1

I'm sorry that the TiVo didn't meet your expectations, and I'm glad you were able to return it.

In my case, I'm certainly not going to "change my viewing habits to conform to TiVo". It's relatively easy to bypass the TiVo with any television with multiple inputs. On those occasions where I just want to graze around the TV dial (which are becoming fewer and fewer), I just watch the alternate input which bypasses the TiVo.

Posted by: DrStrange

quote:
Originally posted by jgickler:
I guess I dont have much sympathy for someone whose first posts to this board, are complaining about a product they returned. Take your flame bait somewhere else.

That wasn't flame bait IMO, it was legitimate negative feedback. There are probably alot of people who aren't big on the view-everything-through-Tivo school of thought, whether because of picture degradation or for other reasons. Maybe they're just more comfortable thinking of it as a VCR with a nifty guide. Whatever the reason those people could be accomodated if Tivo could be told to pass the RF signal through to the TV on demand. Or perhaps add a real "live" TV mode where the signal from it's internal tuner is split, one to the line-outs and one to the MPEG encoder. Then you could still watch live TV without the delays or MPEG distortion but could still do Tivo tricks with the buffered signal in near-real time.

This may not be something enough people care about to make it worth Tivos while to do but the same could be true for ethernet ports, multiple tuners, removable media, folders, or the countless other blue-sky suggestions made here. That he wants what he wants bad enough not to buy a Tivo doesn't make it less valid or less suitable for posting here.

[This message has been edited by DrStrange (edited 09-13-2000).]

Posted by: Chuckles

Splitting the signal works okay if one has two cable boxes, but not if one had to compete with the TiVo for control of one box. Also, either way, I would need 3 remotes (one for the TiVo, one for the cable box, and since neither has a choose-TV-input button, a third for the TV). Not being a skilled juggler, I think this is too much, especially when a simple 'pass-through' mode on the TiVo is all that's needed.

By the way, what's this about "live buffering should not degrade your signal, unless you have bad wiring, or a poor signal from the cable company. That is not Tivo's problem." (jgickler)? I can see the softening very clearly. My web browsing leads me to believe that the 'live' picture is actually the compressed and then uncompressed picture (I can tell that it is delayed by a couple of seconds).

Indeed, what I was looking for is a "VCR with a nifty guide"---PLUS random access (i.e. disk, not tape). I think there's a market for that, but no product.

Posted by: jgickler

Sorry if my choice of words was poor (i.e. flame bait), and certainly the last few lines of my post where overly harsh. The problem I had with this post was that Chuckles' only two posts to this board are the two in this thread. I think that there are actually several possible work arounds for this problem, but instead of coming to this forum for help or advice, it appeared to me that he only made the post which started this thread.

When I read the original posts, I was very cynical, and assumed that the author was Tivo Bashing. After rereading them, I think that this assumption may be wrong.

For all of this I apologize.

Finally, I think that being able to control the buffer more easily would be a great benefit for all Tivo users. This would include being able to turn it off, and being able to increase it's size, or even change the quality. But I do think that Tivo needs to make it very clear that it is not just a digital VCR, it is much more than that, and if someone is not interested in features other than recording, then Tivo may not be for them.

Posted by: jgickler

Chuckles,
When I said live bufferig should not effect the signal,I actually had misunderstand what you were saying. I thought that you were speaking of the signal not running through the Tivo, which was going straight to your TV, being degraded because of the buffering. I agree that the recorded signal may be degraded from the buffering, but I do believe that the better the source, the lesser the degradation, and unfortunately the source on my cable can really suck at times. Once again I would like to apologize, I guess when I read the post, I saw what I wanted to see, and misinterpreted your post, and the situation.

Posted by: jasonl99

Chuckles,

It's too bad you didn't keep it longer. Once you've had TiVo for a little while, there's *always* something better to watch that's already been recorded. And since it's already recorded, you don't have to surf during commercials.

I completely understand your feeling as I felt the same after first getting my TiVo. But that feeling changed once I'd used it for a month or so.

Posted by: Chuckles

Mods like 'video pass-through' are easy (every VCR does it when turned off); TiVo hasn't allowed this, and doesn't even have an off button, because it wants to be able to record and upload your viewing habits. The fact that they collect stats (not individual data) is right in their 'Privacy Promise'. That's why they're giving these Linux boxes away at such low prices, and that's why they have to make it hard for you to surf using the cable box.

TiVo is a nice product: a VCR with random access to recordings, a program guide, and the amazing ability to select and save programs I might be interested in. Live TV buffering can be nice too. So I understand why TiVoheads like it so much, but...

Posted by: ILoveMyTiVo

Chuckles, where do you get those ideas? You make it sound like TiVo wrote the whole product just to collect statistics and not to be a useful product. That is completely unfounded and IMHO insulting to the TiVo people reading the board. The advantage of being able to pause/instant replay live tv causes the disadvantage of slow surfing. Sounds like a good tradeoff to me. It doesn't turn off because there is no reason to. You get the advantage of suggestions or late night recordings. Also, the drives will last longer if always spinning since turning on and off puts the most stress on the drives. The only advantage to turning it off is to save a teeny amount of electricity. There are probably other good reasons too. If TiVo is not what you want, that is fine, but that doesn't mean those decisions were made completely ignoring (or worse, purposely going against) what they thought was useful to most people just so they could make money off collecting data.

If the whole purpose was to collect data, why would they let you opt-out of it so easily? Yes, they collect data, and yes they are a business and want to make money. But I think they have proven that they are very concerned with customer satisfaction also.

btw: They cannot add a pass through with a software upgrade. It is impossible because it is wired to always go through the MPEG encoder.

[This message has been edited by ILoveMyTiVo (edited 09-14-2000).]

Posted by: Chuckles

Read the New York Times Magazine article from a couple of months ago. Why has TiVo attracted so much venture capital? Do you think Sony makes money selling Unix boxes with huge hard disks at this low price? No, Tivo pays them a fee per box sold. Does TiVo do this so it can charge you $10/month and thus get rich? Nope. The venture capital is there because of the potential uses of the data; it's like any dotcom, they're losing shitloads of money now in the hope of making money later. I'm sorry if you find this statement of fact insulting to users.

The law requires them to let you opt out. But most people don't bother.

Posted by: ILoveMyTiVo

The law requires them to let you opt out? I thought that I read Replay didn't have a way to opt out. (I'm sure someone will come correct me if I'm wrong here). At least they don't tell you about it as clearly as TiVo. I guess they could let you do it if you call, but not tell you that proactively.

I read the article and I know they lose money on the boxes right now. I know they plan on making money (at least partly) through ads which the data will help with. I was objecting to the idea that the multiple significant features you mention were purposely left out solely so that they could collect better data. I think there were other good reasons behind the decisions. So far, they have shown ways to have ads that are actually useful to the user (Network Showcases, TiVomatics, TiVo Cineplex). They do have to make money, but I think they have been good at finding win/win ways to do this.

Posted by: far_to_go

The idea that the 'watch live tv' buffering is for marketing data is pretty far out. It also sounds like something very likely to happen however.

There's a lot of 'let's not rock this boat of an advertising model' attitude in the way the data is anonymized and fed to the networks but the sad thing is that you still end up watching the commercial just like regular old tv.

On topic, I'm amazed the live content guide pages up and down so slowly. Is this a database lookup performance issue? I mean really, it can't burn that much memory to prefetch channel line item data based on guessing that a user is probably going to want to scroll down as many as 40-60 channels to find something to watch on live tv.

I have friends who won't buy into tivo for this reason and saying that you can split the signal is a very poor second option and makes you use two guide systems and remotes.

It's a very cool guide and I love the fact that I can move between cable systems and my guide keeps working the same way BUT, it sure doesn't satisfy the traditional channel surfer.

Posted by: Dr. Zed

quote:
Originally posted by far_to_go:
On topic, I'm amazed the live content guide pages up and down so slowly. Is this a database lookup performance issue? I mean really, it can't burn that much memory to prefetch channel line item data based on guessing that a user is probably going to want to scroll down as many as 40-60 channels to find something to watch on live tv.

The issue there is the buffering. It's not routing the signal directly through, but it's passing it into the live TV buffer. So, when you change channels, you have to wait until there is data in the buffer before it can show it to you.

quote:
I have friends who won't buy into tivo for this reason and saying that you can split the signal is a very poor second option and makes you use two guide systems and remotes.

A better solution is to "surf" the online guide. There's no significant delay, you get to see what's on and, if available, an episode description.

Channel surfing is obsolete....

quote:
Originally posted by Chuckles:
I guess I dislike the attitude "you must change your viewing habits to conform to TiVo". This is the attitude of both TiVo and its loyal users.

You have it backwards. It's not that you have to change your viewing habits. It's that you can. This is the attitude of TiVo uses because it's true.

If your viewing habits are flipping randomly between channels, then TiVo's not for you. However, if you want your viewing habits to be watching the shows you want, when you want, then yes, that would be a change in your viewing habits.

People don't like hearing that channel surfing is obsolete, but it is. You can have TiVo record anything you might want to watch. With a wide selection of shows of your choice in Now Showing, what would be the point of flipping randomly through shows. And, if you want to see what's on, the onscreen guide is much more informative, since you don't have to wait through commercials to see what's on.

It's not that you have to "conform". It's simply what TiVo is and, if you don't like it, then it's not for you. Saying you have to "conform" your viewing habits would be like saying you have to "conform" your viewing habits when you get a VCR because you have to switch tapes.

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"It's like living in the future."�

[This message has been edited by an infinite number of monkeys (edited 10-24-2000).]

Posted by: barqman

I think the answer to the quick channel changing is to simple delay buffering for 5 seconds as you change channels. After all, who cares if I miss 5 seconds of a show I turned to if sometime later while I'm on that channel, I want to go back to the beginning. I don't know any statistics, but for me 5 seconds is more than enough to see if I want to watch something before I change to the next channel. Problem solved.

Posted by: Dr. Zed

quote:
Originally posted by barqman:
I think the answer to the quick channel changing is to simple delay buffering for 5 seconds as you change channels. After all, who cares if I miss 5 seconds of a show I turned to if sometime later while I'm on that channel, I want to go back to the beginning. I don't know any statistics, but for me 5 seconds is more than enough to see if I want to watch something before I change to the next channel. Problem solved.

Keep in mind that there is a lot being done by hardware that you can't simply rewire with an undate. Most likly, the input is going straight through the tuner and then the mpeg encoder (and something similar for the output), so it probably is not a simple matter to disable the buffering.

------------------
"It's like living in the future."�

[This message has been edited by an infinite number of monkeys (edited 10-24-2000).]

Posted by: barqman

Sure ... 5 second delay buffering won't be a matter of coding, there will surely be hardware alterations that need to be done. Sometimes you have to break a few eggs to make a good product great. It should have been something that was considered in the ential design phase of the product. Slow channel surfing is the very first thing I noticed when I got my Tivo a year ago .... it's a drag and certainly should be addressed in future boxes, such as the Direct-Tivo box I heard about that is suppose to be released soon.

Posted by: Dr. Zed

quote:
Originally posted by barqman:
Sure ... 5 second delay buffering won't be a matter of coding, there will surely be hardware alterations that need to be done. Sometimes you have to break a few eggs to make a good product great. It should have been something that was considered in the ential design phase of the product....

I'm sure it was an initial consideration, but like many things that "would be nice" it isn't vital, has reasonable workarounds, and only affects a small number of users.

And, the main factor would have been that it would require slightly more expensive hardware configuration. Keep in mind that the initial units were priced at around $1000 for a 14-hour unit. Zoinks!

Now that the product is more viable and can be mass produced for a decent cost, I could see more options opening up, for example, a pass-through tuner for exactly what you suggested.

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"It's like living in the future."�

[This message has been edited by an infinite number of monkeys (edited 10-24-2000).]

Posted by: ETR

quote:
Originally posted by Chuckles:
Splitting the signal works okay if one has two cable boxes, but not if one had to compete with the TiVo for control of one box. Also, either way, I would need 3 remotes (one for the TiVo, one for the cable box, and since neither has a choose-TV-input button, a third for the TV).

Of coure you would. The same way you need two remotes to use your VCR, cable box and TB. This is not a fault of TiVo, however, it's the fault of needing to add any new device to the device chain.

As to how to use it, if the TiVo is not recording, you can just change the channels with the cable box remote. It makes the TiVo's info about what channel is on incorrect, but it works fine. It also removes one of the two remotes from the picture; the TV remote is unnecessary because it is always watching the TiVo.

--- Eric