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Avia calibration dvd
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Posted by: Captain Kangaroo
I received my Avia dvd last night. I decided to do this as I have found that my set using Tivo and s-video everywhere had really demonstrated the crappyness of my tv's settings. Sometimes the picture seemed too dark and then sometimes, more often than not on the movie channels (HBO), skin coloration appeared really red.
Anyway, I ran the calibration test patterns and I was suprised on two counts. First, even with all the instruction given with the dvd it seemed very subjective in making any adjustments. Second, my picture is a lot softer and really different. The instructions on the dvd said to keep the new settings for a week so as to get used to the changed picture. Given my experience, am curious as to how other peoples' experience has been.
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Justin
Sony SVR2000 standalone
[This message has been edited by Captain Kangaroo (edited 06-20-2001).]
Posted by: Otto
The reason it appears softer is that you probably turned your sharpness all the way down. Good. This is actually the correct thing to do, as sharpness adds noise to the picture, giving you the illusion of "sharp edges".
And it is subjective, but it doesn't really have to be. With the right tools you could calibrate it exactly, but without those tools, your eyes and ears are the best you have to go by. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif
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Everything I say is my opinion and not necessarily a statement of fact. Deal with it.
Otto, Zen TiVo Master - Moderator - AVS Tivo Forums - Tivo Underground, Tivo Coffee House
"The way of the portable computer user is as a stony path strewn with plugs and sockets, all the wrong size..." -- Terry Pratchett
Posted by: Joe Squid
For my HT tv, Avia was absoutley essential. It improved the pitcture dramatically. It is subjective as even the calibration tools a professional calibrator uses requires some level of experience as to what makes up a good picture. Besides, you are the one that will be watching the movies so you should be the final say on the settings. Initially, the picture does look softer but remember that you are seeing the true picture without the extra information that your TV was putting into the picture. You should start to see more detail than you had before. There is another calibration disk out there (I forget the name but it has been around for a while and almost as good as Avia) that has a montage of images with a full range soundtrack to test your calibrations of your video and audio system. Looking at that before and after the calibrations showed how much I was missing in my picture.
Now, I have my Tivo in my bedroom as our living room is primaraly for movies. The bedroom TV is an old 27 inch goldstar that has a lot of overscan on the bottom of the screen (cant see the clock) and a power supply that shows the line bending in the contrast calibration screen even at the lowest levels. I noticed that when calibration that TV, everything was too dark so I had to increase the contrast and brighness of the screen. What can I say - it is an old TV.
So, trust your eyes since you are the one who should be enjoying watching the TV. After all, what good is calibrating your TV if afterwards you hate watching things on it?
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My HT
Posted by: Captain Kangaroo
Just to clarify, I wasn't being critical of the Avia disk - I think it has helped my picture. I was just suprised how over sharp my std tv settings were. It will take some adjustment on my part.
On the subjective side, a number of the test patterns were awfully subtle in their changes other than at the extremes. I think it basically comes down to the fact that I am a mere novice when it comes to video calibration.
Also, I didn't have the power line squiggle issue, which was good. But, I had a tough time with the color and the use the colored plastic patches to put over ones eyes. I think the other DVD that does similiar things is the Video Essentials DVD. I was advised, that, if I was a complete novice, to get the Avia dvd. This was all from third party advice and I have no direct opinion on this dvd. I didn't use the sound calibrations yet, although since I have a pretty simple sound set up, it will probably be overkill.
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Justin
Sony SVR2000 standalone
Posted by: stevel
I have both Avia and Video Essentials and agree that if you have to pick one, get Avia.
It is true that TVs come from the factory adjusted so that the picture "pops out" at you in a brightly-lit showroom, which is not at all what you want for an accurate picture at home. You want the brightness and contrast down, sharpness down or off, and color temperature much lower. Avia can't really help with the latter, but nowadays most TVs have a setting that claims to be close to the 6500K standard (few actually are). The default tends to be 14000K and up, making whites look blue.
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Steve (Sony SVR-2000, 103+ hours, TiVoNET!)
Posted by: TivoDaddy
quote:
Originally posted by stevel:
It is true that TVs come from the factory adjusted so that the picture "pops out" at you in a brightly-lit showroom, which is not at all what you want for an accurate picture at home. You want the brightness and contrast down, sharpness down or off, and color temperature much lower.
So the question that begs to be asked is, how do you properly compare new tv's if they are preset to these un-adjusted modes? Specially since a lot of people play and readjust the settings as they are watching them. What should a novice buyer do when going to store to compare several tv's after doing some previous research?
Posted by: Mars Rocket
If they won't let you bring in your Avia DVD and calibrate a few sets side-by-side, the best you can do is to make your decision based on reviews, manufacturers reputation, features, appearence, etc. I'd never buy a set based solely on how it looked in the showroom.
If you're in the market for a new TV, check out the other forums here on AVS...you'll find more opinions and information than you could ever need.
Posted by: Mike Wells
When I first calibrated my TV, I also noticed that the picture seemed soft, but more than that I thought the picture was too dark! It took a week or two to get used to it, but now I wouldn't have it any other way.
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Mike
Posted by: stevel
quote:
Originally posted by TivoDaddy:
So the question that begs to be asked is, how do you properly compare new tv's if they are preset to these un-adjusted modes? Specially since a lot of people play and readjust the settings as they are watching them. What should a novice buyer do when going to store to compare several tv's after doing some previous research?
As Mars Rocket says, try to use Avia to adjust the sets properly. Good luck doing this in a BestBuy, but a good store should cooperate with you. I spent about three hours at a Tweeter, Etc. store with my laserdisc (this was before DVD) of Video Essentials comparing TVs.
Reviews in magazines such as Stereophile Guide to Home Theater and The Perfect Vision will also be helpful. I would ignore Sound&Vision, which never met an advertiser it didn't like. After reading enough reviews, you'll start to get a feel for which manufacturers consistently "get it right" - Sony is one of the few to do so most often, but Sony is not perfect, either.
I'd say, based on my own tests and reviews I've read, that Sony and Pioneer should be your top brand choices. Hitachi, Panasonic and Philips also make some very nice sets. I would advise skipping RCA/Proscan, Zenith and Mitsubishi (I've never met a Mitsubishi TV I liked.) Of course, others will have their own opinions.
If you have a "big screen TV", you should consider getting it calibrated by an ISF certified installer. It can make a significant improvement in the quality of the picture.
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Steve (Sony SVR-2000, 103+ hours, TiVoNET!)
Posted by: JeffPatt
I have a Sony XBR400 with a Sony T-60 and the Avia software made a huge difference in the image quality.
When I first hooked-up the XBR to the T-60, the picture was horrible. The pictures were jagged and there were MPG artifacts all over the place.
It did take a few weeks to get used to a "softer" picture.
I then used the Avia software on all the TVs in the house and it made a huge difference on even the lower quality sets.
Jeff
Posted by: MDarrah
Am I correct in that those discs are made with the assumption that your TV is in a completely dark room? That's not very practical in my opinion. I played around with my TV one night using the calibration "extra feature" on a THX DVD.
I got everything set pretty close to what they said it should be, and it looked pretty good. But the next day, with sun shining in the room (not on the screen though), the picture was WAY too dark. I finally just turned the brightness back up to an acceptable level and left it like that.
I guess what I'm saying is that your viewing environment plays a role in the process. The majority of people don't have a windowless, dedicated home theater room for watching TV. Sometimes you have to compromise between a "perfect" picture and a "see-able" picture.
Posted by: Captain Kangaroo
quote:
Am I correct in that those discs are made with the assumption that your TV is in a completely dark room?
The Avia dvd explicitly states to set up the lighting as you would when you watch tv - not a dark room. I am lucky in the lighting of my room doesn't change much. Now, if your room lighting changes a lot you would have to compromise somehow. Maybe set it up to the most common lighting situation. My tv has up to 4 different screen modes that would allow me to accomodate this - or so I think.
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Justin
Sony SVR2000 standalone
Posted by: Otto
If you're in a store and comparing sets without a calibration disc, you just have to eyeball it. Better than ntohing.
The first thing is to drop the sharpness all the way down on both. Next, adjust the contrast down until you can see something you'd define as "black" in an image turn into actual black and not gray. Next, adjust the brightness until you see some white that's bright, but not bleeding into other parts of the image. You want it just below the bleeding point. Finally, there's no real way to calibrate color/tint without a filter and a test pattern.. you can't even eyeball it, so just adjust two sets until they look about the same, colorwise. If there's any temperature settings, turn them off, or as low as possible. If it's got a setting for 6500K, try that, but it's probably a big lie except on really high end sets.
Then compare the quality between the two sets you've adjusted. Always compare two sets against each other this way, never just adjust one and decide how you "think" it looks.
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Everything I say is my opinion and not necessarily a statement of fact. Deal with it.
Otto, Zen TiVo Master - Moderator - AVS Tivo Forums - Tivo Underground, Tivo Coffee House
"The way of the portable computer user is as a stony path strewn with plugs and sockets, all the wrong size..." -- Terry Pratchett
Posted by: Mark Lopez
quote:
Originally posted by Mars Rocket:
I'd never buy a set based solely on how it looked in the showroom.
But on the other hand if it looks good there with their crappy lighting, it will most likely look better in your home and when adjusted properly.
Posted by: hutchca
I don't know if the instructions for the Avia disc tell you to do this or not but I use the following techniques to adjust tint & color.
I don't have the Avia DVD but I have a THX laserdisc which has several test patterns on the end. First I use the greybars test pattern to adjust the brightness. Then I use the standard ColorBars test pattern to adjust the tint and color intensity.
To adjust the tint(hue) I use a magnifying glass to look at the screen. If you don't have a good magnifying glass available put a drop of water on the screen, it works great. You need to be able to look carefully at the individual red, green & blue phosphor dots.
When looking at the green bar, you shouldn't see any of the blue or red elements lit up at all. Adjust the tint so that the red & blue elements are dark. If you can't make them completely dark, reduce your color intensity or balance them so they're equal. I also verify by looking at the red and blue areas and ensure the other colors are dark and in the white area they all look equal.
The color intensity is kind of subjective. You want the colors to be bright and vibrant but not 'bleed' over. Red tends to bleed more than other colors. You can use the colorbars test pattern and adjust it to minimize 'bleeding' at the edges between the colors. I adjust mine high, then reduce it just until there's no noticeable change in 'bleeding' by reducing any further.
There's some subjectiveness to this but for the most part it's fairly objective. Like making an adjustment with an analog meter. Any two people will make the adjustment slightly different but they'll be pretty darn close.
Also keep in mind that not all TV's are made equal. Some TVs may not even be capable of the 'ideal' adjustments.
B.T.W. Where can I get the 'Avia' DVD?
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"long you live and high you fly
And smiles you'll give and tears you'll cry
And all you touch and all you see
Is all your life will ever be" Waters/Gilmore
[This message has been edited by hutchca (edited 06-21-2001).]
Posted by: JeffPatt
Amazon has the Avia DVD. I looked around and they had the best price.
Posted by: dgh
quote:
Originally posted by hutchca:
Start with Contrast set to MAX and Sharpness set to MIN and leave them there. Anything else is distortion.
Contrast to MAX? On my set that gives you something that looks like a black light poster http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif About 20% is where the calibration disc left it.
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Dave Hicks
Posted by: dmaneyapanda
setting contrast to the max is also a great way to speed up burn-in on RPTV's. not to mention creating all sorts of blooming artifacts.
not sure where you've learned that advice hutchca, but i would rethink your position, and i would certainly not advocate that method to anyone else here. a calibration disc is certainly the best tool you have at your disposal, barring paying an expert to come in with expensive calibration tools.
dinesh
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DVI/HDCP sucks. DFAST sucks. Boycott JVC.
Posted by: hutchca
No blooming on my TV(s). I've seen it happen before and I know enough to back off the contrast & brightness when that happens but it's only happened (to me) on older worn-out TVs.
F.Y.I. I don't have rear projection. Just direct view tube. I kinda have a thing against RP but that's for another thread. So I have no experience making these adjustments on RPTVs.
In my experience anything but MAX contrast and black isn't black it's grey. The higher the contrast the better (IMHO). Higher contrast gives better definition and brighter colors. If you lower the contrast, everything looks 'washed out'.
I can see all levels of grey and the resolution tests look good at MAX contrast on <u>MY</u> TV. Certainly you'll need to consider these factors on <u>your</u> display when making these adjustments.
Just my $0.02 but please remember that I'm no expert.
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"long you live and high you fly
And smiles you'll give and tears you'll cry
And all you touch and all you see
Is all your life will ever be" Waters/Gilmore
[This message has been edited by hutchca (edited 06-21-2001).]
Posted by: Guy Kuo
I usually stay out of AVIA opinion threads unless I see something which has a signficant potential for harm or is grossly incorrect. Some highly unusual advice crosses that threshold and leaps over new cliffs of "creativity."
****** Do NOT set contrast to maximum on CRT displays, direct view or projection. Doing so dramatically increases the risk of permanent phosphor damage, shadow mask warpage, reduces image resolution, and renders correct grayscale tracking nearly impossible to achieve especially on projection sets. I strongly recommend against following this potentially harmful advice. ********
Without instrumentation, the best course is to set contrast to the LOWEST acceptable level which makes white still appear white. The "brightness" control is used to alter the appearance of black. The calibration discs have instructions. They are intended to help the user recreate the known appearance of video test patterns whose content is well defined and designed to make variances more obvious.
Color bars have a specific content of each color in each bar. The bars are all composed of the same amount of red, green, or blue found in the gray portions of the pattern. It is because of this that calibration can be performed by comparing a pure color against gray if a filter is used or the other two color guns are turned off. It is because the color control has no effect on gray that we can compare a fixed amount of each color against the variable amount in the colored bars. Since the bars are encoded to have the same amount of each color as in the gray, adjusting the display saturation and hue as directed on AVIA gets the display to replicate the ideal NTSC display as well as possible. Looking for the absence or presence of other colors with a magnifying glass is creative, but does not take advantage of the way the pattern is designed and is fraught with problems due to incorrect brightness control adjustment.
Take a look at
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/uub...-17-000004.html for some additional hints have been archived about using AVIA.
I suggest this topic continue at the main AVS forum where users with more experience with proper display calibration can help.
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Guy Kuo
www.ovationsw.com
Ovation Software, the Home of AVIA DVD
Posted by: Otto
I was wondering what it would take to make Guy Kuo jump in. Now I see that we just had to give bad advice and wait for Guy to correct us. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/biggrin.gif
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Everything I say is my opinion and not necessarily a statement of fact. Deal with it.
Otto, Zen TiVo Master - Moderator - AVS Tivo Forums - Tivo Underground, Tivo Coffee House
"The way of the portable computer user is as a stony path strewn with plugs and sockets, all the wrong size..." -- Terry Pratchett
Posted by: Mars Rocket
quote:
Originally posted by JeffPatt:
Amazon has the Avia DVD. I looked around and they had the best price.
You can get the Avia DVD right here at the AVS store and it's even cheaper than Amazon...check it out at http://www.avscience.com/cgi-bin/quikstore.cgi
Just enter "avia" into the keyword field.
Edit: it seems that with shipping it may be $1 more from AVS, since Amazon currently has a free shipping deal if you buy 2 or more CDs/DVDs from them. But we should all support AVS anyway, so buy it here!
[This message has been edited by Mars Rocket (edited 06-21-2001).]
Posted by: Mike Wells
One thing I'd like to add is that there is a difference between what looks "good" and what is accurate for many people. The primary goal of the calibration is to make your TV more accurate in its reproduction of video signals. If you aren't used to accurate, it may not look "good" at first. (Most people have watched sets that are too bright, too sharp, and too blue for years) But soon "accurate" will also look "good" to you.
(accurate) calibration is a good thing, if done right. AVIA is a good way to do it right.
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Mike
Posted by: wa2joc
I found that using the AVIA DVD greatly improved my TV picture as well as the sound in my home theatre.
Posted by: hutchca
I trust that you all know more about it than I do so I stand corrected(for now). Maybe high contrast just looks better to me even though it's not "correct".
I know a little bit about how to use the standard NTSC test patterns but I guess that was just enough to be dangerous.
B.T.W. My TV has been running every day for 13 years with the contrast set to MAX and the picture is still as good as the day I bought it. There's no burn in or loss of image resolution. I check from time to time wondering when this TV is going to wear out so I can buy a new one.
I could be that my TV is calibrated from the factory so that MAX contrast is limited to a safe & proper level. If I reset the adjustments to default, the factory default setting on my TV for contrast is MAX. Likewise on all computer monitors I've seen. It would make sense for manufacturers to limit user adjustments to proper and safe levels.
I'm sure I read somewhere that MAX contrast was best but I can't remember where. Maybe it was the owners manual for my TV. Oh well...
B.T.W. I ordered the Avia DVD so I guess I'll find out soon enough.
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"long you live and high you fly
And smiles you'll give and tears you'll cry
And all you touch and all you see
Is all your life will ever be" Waters/Gilmore
Posted by: DanT
I just had to throw a couple comments in here.
First, I've used both Avia and Video Essentials, and prefer Avia. VE only comes with a blue filter, whereas Avia comes with blue, red, and green, so you can set all three much more accurately. VE is a good disc, too, but I just think Avia is a step better.
Second, I can't let Steve's comment about Mitsubishi TV's go unchallenged. My only experience with them is with the recent rear-projection HDTV-ready sets, but I found them VERY nice. I liked them a whole lot better than the Sony Wega's. Pioneer and Toshiba are the other two I would recommend for RP units. For direct-view I'd probably recommend Panasonic and Toshiba, although I haven't looked at them in a couple years.
And while I didn't take my Avia DVD to the store (Good Guys) with me when I bought my TV, I had just calibrated my brother-in-law's TV (same model) a few days before, so I knew how good it could look, and when I saw the floor model, I knew something was wrong. I had a speaker salesman helping me, so he was no use. I quickly determined that although they had all three (composite, S-video, and component) video connections in place, they were using the composite video signal. Switched inputs, and it still wasn't even close. Checked the DVD player, and it was set up for non-anamorphic playback. Changed that, and it still wasn't there. Tweaked the video settings to roughly what I remembered from Herb's unit earlier in the week, and it was almost there. Close, but no cigar. Finally figured out that I was sitting about twice as close as I had been at Herb's place. Moved the couch back, and voila! I bought the thing right then. The point of all this rambling is that calibration (and of course input signal) can make a HUGE difference.
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Dan T.
RKBA!
Posted by: Randy Given
I also generally prefer Mitsubishi -- they seem to know how to make TV viewing right. Most other manufacturers make theirs so that they look snappy on the showroom floor. But, when you take them home, you have to "calibrate" them to look right. All of a sudden, they look amazingly like the Mitsubishi. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif
Posted by: stevel
Maybe Mitsubishi has changed their ways, but back when I was looking at TVs a couple of years ago, every Mitsubishi came preset with a color temperature around 16000K (6250K is accurate) and the geometry was very badly off. I found the picture hurtful to watch.
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Steve (Sony SVR-2000, 103+ hours, TiVoNET!)
Posted by: jmccorm
quote:
Originally posted by stevel:
It is true that TVs come from the factory adjusted so that the picture "pops out" at you in a brightly-lit showroom, which is not at all what you want for an accurate picture at home.
For a good laugh, go to your local Sears and compare the 'quality' of the television pictures. You'll find that the floor models are salesperson adjusted so that the ones with the best commission have a great picture, while the low commission models are obviously, and improperly, set.
For fun, reset all the picture controls back to default and watch the sales droid get upset.
Posted by: AdamGott
quote:
Originally posted by jmccorm:
[B] For a good laugh, go to your local Sears and compare the 'quality' of the television pictures. You'll find that the floor models are salesperson adjusted so that the ones with the best commission have a great picture, while the low commission models are obviously, and improperly, set.
[B]
I always figured that something like this was going on at Circuit City too.
At least they are now feeding their digital hdtv's with some hdtv source material! That Discovery HD channel promo stuff looks pretty good, even at Circuit City!
Posted by: hutchca
Got my Avia DVD on Friday and used it this weekend.
Thanks to Guy Kuo and all the others that helped to create this very useful disk.
I have to admit how surprised I was to see how different the picture looked after completing the adjustments. Different but definitely better.
The problem is that now I can see how bad most of the broadcast signals are. Broadcast and cable stations should calibrate their signals once in a while too.
In my defense I have to say that the correct contrast setting on my TV ended up being MAX anyway.
In the last %5 or %10 of the adjustment range there was no noticeable increase in the brightness of the white level so I left it about %5 down from max.
Through the entire adjustment range there was Zero blooming and no geometry distortion (that was affected by the contrast adjustment).
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"long you live and high you fly
And smiles you'll give and tears you'll cry
And all you touch and all you see
Is all your life will ever be" Waters/Gilmore
Posted by: gregl
Hehe. I was wondering why my post in the "Happy Hour" forum died a quiet death... http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif
Calibration DVDs
Just another "Me Too", I guess. But, I am extreemly happy now that I have calibrated all my main TVs with the Avia disc.
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-Greg
Phillips HDR112 @ 106hrs - v2.0.1-002
Phillips HDR112 @ 63hrs - v2.0.1-002 (Gave to my Dad for Father's Day)
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