TiVo Community Forums Archives - Carnivale 10/5/03 (spoilers)

TiVoCommunity.com
(c)opyright 1995-2005 All rights reserved
indexcheckTC
This area is a static history of posts in the TiVo Community Forum Archive.
This archive history was made for the simple indexing of search sites like Google.

Pages:1

Carnivale 10/5/03 (spoilers)
(Click here to view the original thread with full colors/images)

Posted by: tonyoci

I am pretty hooked on this show though I don't have the first clue what is going on. I am so out of touch that I cannot even speculate on the possibilities.

The priest seems like a good man on the surface and has only showed a dark side to "true" sinners.

Ben has done nothing wrong yet.

Do you think Sophie is/was married to Jonesy, I did not understand the conversation she had with her mother after she returned from her "session".

It's all very confusing but very entertaining.

Does anyone know for sure if this is a one of season or an ongoing show. I could not take 5 years of this with an X-Files style ending.

Tony

Posted by: Fleegle

I don't think we're supposed to know what's going on at this point in the story. Every week, however, we learn something new. This week, among other things, we learned that Lodz gave up his eyesight for his mental powers. I'm not sure, though, if that means that his powers caused his loss of eyesight or if he voluntarily gave it up to get his powers.

What you said about Brother Justin is exactly his problem. He's nice and loving to the faithful, but lets loose his wrath on those who oppose him. That's exactly the opposite of what Christianity espouses.

Jonsey has a bad crush on Sofie. This is an excerpt from Sofie's bio page on HBO's Carnivale site:

quote:

Sofie was eight when Jonesy joined the carnival and he became both big brother and best friend. However, as she grew into a teenager, her feelings for him turned to love. Unrequited love. But by the time Jonesy noticed that she had blossomed into a beautiful young woman -- Sofie had moved on. Or has she? Jones hasn't, that's for sure.

The show's creator has said that it's a one-time shot. It won't be a series. It's essentially all boiling up to a huge Good vs Evil battle at the end. We just haven't been told which side everybody is on. Apparently, the final episode or two will have the Carnivale coming to brother Justin's town. Personally, I think Brother Justin is evil and Ben is good. His gift is life, and Brother Justin's seems to be death.

Warning! Speculation below:

Spoiler Alert! (highlight to read)
Since we heard about Management, I thought he was God. When Jonsey went into Management's trailer last night and found it empty and locked from the outside, I was pretty sure of it. Jonsey's story is about Faith. Most of the Carnivale's workers have never seen Management, but they know He exists. They are going on Faith. Jonsey is beginning to doubt the wisdom is Management since they they've left the circuit. Essentially, he's Judas.

Posted by: Big_Daddy

quote:
Originally posted by Fleegle
Personally, I think Brother Justin is evil and Ben is good. His gift is life, and Brother Justin's seems to be death.

What's interesting to me is the context around Brother Justin's crusade. Several people have died (the building's original owner, presumably the town councilman, and then the deaths last night). Also, every episode has some force trying to get him to abandon his crusade - either the town council or the church itself.

I hope that the good/evil thing isn't as simple as you're implying. This show is too smart to settle on a "priest is evil" resolution. I guess they could be heading towards a "the path to hell is paved with good intentions" theme, but we'll see.

And whoever management is, they clearly want Ben to develop his power. Hence the change in circuit to go to areas where Ben might develop.

Posted by: Fleegle

I guess I should have said that Brother Justin represents Evil and Ben represents Good. I said in last week's discussion that Brother Justin's story is just what you said. The path to hell is paved with good intentions", or doing the wrong thing for the right reasons. His will be a slow burn decline toward Evil.

Ben, on the other hand, is shunning his gift because it has what he sees as negative side effects. In effect, he's doing the wrong thing for the right reasons.

Posted by: mrboo

Last nights episode reminded me of an old MASH episode, where people are pinned down by some external force and we get the triangular story threads.

Man, the bearded lady does a horrible Delta Burke impression.

Posted by: Rob Helmerichs

Am I strange to think it obvious that Brother Justin (inadvertently) caused the storm through his mental anguish after receiving the letter?

Posted by: Fleegle

quote:
Originally posted by Medieval Guy
Am I strange to think it obvious that Brother Justin (inadvertently) caused the storm through his mental anguish after receiving the letter?

I think that his abilities work within a much closer range than what you're suggesting. Everything we've seen so far suggests that someone has to be within close proximity to him for him to lash out against them.

Posted by: Rob Helmerichs

quote:
Originally posted by Fleegle
I think that his abilities work within a much closer range than what you're suggesting. Everything we've seen so far suggests that someone has to be within close proximity to him for him to lash out against them.

In the past, he's been angry at specific people, who then died. But in this case, it was a general angst, which (I think) manifested as the storm.

Posted by: ClutchBrake

quote:
Originally posted by Medieval Guy
Am I strange to think it obvious that Brother Justin (inadvertently) caused the storm through his mental anguish after receiving the letter?

Nope, I thought it was obvious. Ben being able to stop it only gives us a glimpse of things to come.

Posted by: drew2k

About the storm ... I believe both Sophie's mom and Lodz knew it was coming, so I don't think Brother Justin caused it. Before Sophie left for her "adventure", her mom made some comment that prompted Sophie to respond something like, "what do you mean? it's such a nice day". Later, when Lodz told Ben to stop the truck, Lodz rolled up the window just prior to the storm hitting.

I'm still trying to figure out the connection between Lodz and Sophie's mom. They seem to have a bond and can communicate, so I wonder if Lodz is Sophie's father. After hearing tonights' revelation about how he lost his eyesight, and noting Sophie's anger towards him in previous episodes, I wonder if Lodz' trade had something to do with Sophie's mom becoming catatonic.... (All just speculation, but isn't that half the fun?)

Posted by: ClutchBrake

quote:
Originally posted by drew2k
About the storm ... I believe both Sophie's mom and Lodz knew it was coming, so I don't think Brother Justin caused it. Before Sophie left for her "adventure", her mom made some comment that prompted Sophie to respond something like, "what do you mean? it's such a nice day". Later, when Lodz told Ben to stop the truck, Lodz rolled up the window just prior to the storm hitting.

Hmmm. Good point. I still can't help feeling it had something to do with Brother Justin. They were far away, perhaps Lodz and Sophie's mother sensed it coming.

Posted by: Rob Helmerichs

quote:
Originally posted by ClutchBrake
Hmmm. Good point. I still can't help feeling it had something to do with Brother Justin. They were far away, perhaps Lodz and Sophie's mother sensed it coming.

Exactly--just because one person can see the future doesn't mean that another can't control events.

Posted by: Family

I liked the series until this episode. Really... enough already. Spending an hour to learn that Lodz lost his eyesight for his powers isn't my idea of moving along. The storm brought out the worst in everyone. We get it. It's been four episodes. We know very little more than we did after the first one. Time to offer a little meat.

Posted by: bobcarn

The series premier started with the dialog and story about a force of good and force of evil born in every generation. The story's centering on Ben and Brother Justin lead you to think that one will be good, and the other evil. Now this is very interesting...... neither of them have done anything that would definitivly mark them as good or evil. Ben seems to be good, and it's natural to root for him as the good force. Brother Justin just seems naturally unlikeable, so it's obvious that he's the evil force. But to me, that just seems a bit too obvious. And for an evil force, he seems a bit too concerned about his flock, the children, the migrants, etc. So I'm starting to think along these lines.....

Spoiler Alert! (highlight to read)

What if neither of them are the evil force? There is one character that plays a part in every episode that we haven't seen yet that seems to have some kind of inside knowledge.... "Management". It could very well be that "Management" is the evil force. This is something I've been considering since the first episode. It was speculated that "Management" may be God, or at least the force of good. But I just don't see a force of good running a carnival that doesn't hesitate to take advantage of people and cheat them out of money (like they did with the revival).

I realize that it's not that subtle a detail, but I still put it in a spoiler box in case someone didn't think along these lines yet.

Posted by: grabeez

Only one person touched on "management". I think management might be some godlike connection. Or is there no management and Samson has some personality disorder? Personally I think Samson has some god like link. Its obvious managemnt isnt physical, or else jonesy would have seen it. Next episode I also think Jonesy is going to let the cat out of the bag about management, and who knows where that will lead.

I understand where people are getting anxious about the speed of this story, but great stories must be built upon great charcters.

Posted by: Sinark

If evil is being angry that sleazy politicians are preventing you from taking care of neglected orphan children, then I don't want to be good.

Even if you consider that his anger MAY have caused the politican to choke, well hey, I still don't consider that so evil. If anything it's an old testament vengeful god exacting punishment on the wicked.

I think to be evil, you have to intentionally do something malicious to good people, and clearly the priest has not done that.

Posted by: ClutchBrake

quote:
Originally posted by Sinark
I think to be evil, you have to intentionally do something malicious to good people, and clearly the priest has not done that.

Except for last night, if one is to believe he was the cause of the storm. I deleted it but I believe his last words had something to do with "everyone drowning".

Posted by: markp99

I like all of the characters in this series, except Samson. I just cannot get past his acting style. Feels very stiff to me, like he's reading his lines, not very believable. Too bad, he's such a central character to the story.

Gonna hang with this series until the end, even though my wife and son are considering bagging it...

Posted by: Fleegle

quote:
Originally posted by Sinark
If evil is being angry that sleazy politicians are preventing you from taking care of neglected orphan children, then I don't want to be good.

Even if you consider that his anger MAY have caused the politican to choke, well hey, I still don't consider that so evil. If anything it's an old testament vengeful god exacting punishment on the wicked.

I think to be evil, you have to intentionally do something malicious to good people, and clearly the priest has not done that.

Yes, and if It was Rabbi Justin, then I could understand that. The whole point of Chritianity was that God was no longer the vengeful God of the old testement. Christianity is based on the concept of of forgiveness, not fury, (Southern baptists aside ;))

Posted by: Big_Daddy

quote:
Originally posted by markp99
I like all of the characters in this series, except Samson. I just cannot get past his acting style. Feels very stiff to me, like he's reading his lines, not very believable. Too bad, he's such a central character to the story.

Really? I like Samson and find he's very enjoyable in his role. I think all the characters are fairly believable in their context. I'd wish they'd develop some secondary characters better - such as Gabriel or Brother Justin's sister for example.

Posted by: KRS

The fact that Sophie can "hear" her mother communicating with her makes me wonder if she too has some special powers. Clearly her mother does, and perhaps her catatonic state is what she gave up for the powers (rather than eyesight). Since Sophie has been with the Carnival since she was little, it stands to reason that her dad is Lodz.

I thought that Hawkins caused the storm and Lodz showed him that he had the power to stop it as well. I didn't think that the priest had anything to do with the storm, but he clearly does have some sort of powers himself as well.

The thing with Jonsey and the locked trailer confused me. I knew it wasn't Lodz's trailer, despite the similar padlock, since the door was hung the opposite way. But seeing as how it was locked from outside, why would Jonsey think anyone was in there?

Does this mean that the midget is actually in control, perhaps saying he is consulting management while actually going into an empty trailer and talking to himself? Come to think of it, the back of that trailer did look a bit like a confessional.....hmmmmm

Posted by: KRS

quote:
Originally posted by ClutchBrake
Except for last night, if one is to believe he was the cause of the storm. I deleted it but I believe his last words had something to do with "everyone drowning".

I think he said ~"...opem your mouths and drown." while the sandstorm raged, suggesting drowning on the sand/dirt. Having a mouth full of sand seems to be a theme from the episode. Wonder what it means?

Posted by: Redleg

Spoiler Alert! (highlight to read)
Structurally we have two similar story lines unfolding.

We have the church (good) carrying along and in some measure trying to thwart the evil (Justin). The evil influence disguises itself as good, twisting truth, and Justin's attempts to respond is inadvertently serving the cause of evil -- such as the burnt sacrifice of the innocent children.

Meanwhile we have the carnival (evil) bringing along good (Ben) for some purpose... potentially to dull his power or to try and manipulate it for evil's sake. Again, he doesn't fully understand his power or what's going on around him.

Right now I'm thinking Management is Satan -- too much about the carnival has carried the themes of evil -- harlots, a reptile man, twisted Scripture, thievery, and deception. Plus Samson's line about "you handsome devil" in the mirror is currently making me think as above... but that might change again next week. Maybe Ben is evil, disguised as an "angel of light" (remember how he must drain life from others to use his powers!), and Justin is some kind of Old Testament voice of righteousness here to wreck holy havoc on a damned world. The possibilities are intriguing, and though the pace is a little slow I'm curious to see how everything unfolds.

Posted by: bobcarn

I think what I like about this show is that there's no clear-cut distinction between good and evil. We can easily switch back and forth about whether a particular character is evil or good, with signs indicating both.

Posted by: gregpr

So what was the hooker scenes all about?

Posted by: Redleg

I agree bob... once I caught on that they were setting it up like that, I've enjoyed it a lot more. So far, very well done!

Posted by: pollyg

I am finding the whole production outstanding, the characters, the pace, the settings, the writing, I think this is great TV, which I had given up on.

On the other hand, I watch it by myself, thanks TiVo, because my husband could not take the ambiguity.

Posted by: Rob Helmerichs

quote:
Originally posted by pollyg
I am finding the whole production outstanding, the characters, the pace, the settings, the writing, I think this is great TV, which I had given up on.

On the other hand, I watch it by myself, thanks TiVo, because my husband could not take the ambiguity.

I'm with you. Ambiguity is good, when done properly.

Hey, if you ever want to dump your husband... :D

Posted by: pollyg

quote:
Originally posted by Medieval Guy
Hey, if you ever want to dump your husband... :D

Wow, I don't think so he feeds my electronic gaget habit.

I was glad to see that the producers were going to limit the show and not try to stretch it beyond this initial good writing. ;)