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The West Wing - 10/8 **SPOILERS**
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Posted by: disco

So, now that the whole Zoey ordeal is over...whatchy'all think of a truly post-Sorkin West Wing?

[edit] Someone tell me....what the HELL is going on between Leo & the First Lady?? Why's she so pissed at him and the Prez??

Posted by: Rob Helmerichs

quote:
Originally posted by disco
Someone tell me....what the HELL is going on between Leo & the First Lady?? Why's she so pissed at him and the Prez??

Because they authorized the assassination (which endangered Zoey) without consulting her. She expressed some anger in earlier episodes over this.

And that's the kind of thing that I regret about the New West Wing--in the Sorkin regime, love it or hate it, everything was very sharp and clear. Nowe, everything seems vague and hazy.

Posted by: Gunnyman2k3

help!! they're KILLING my favorite show....

The humor is gone
the punch from the dialog is gone and the pace is way way off.

:(

Posted by: njtaz

quote:
Originally posted by Medieval Guy
Because they authorized the assassination (which endangered Zoey) without consulting her. She expressed some anger in earlier episodes over this.

Why would the president even consult his wife on something like that or anything really. He's the president not her. You can't run the country like that. She's really is starting to annoy me.

Posted by: SJinBoise

Actually, there DID seem to be a little banter in this episode.

What bothers me is the use of so many wobbly handheld camera shots. It's inconsistent with the style of the previous seasons and kind of reminds me of Law and Order or Homicide: Life on the Street.

Anyway, I think the whole scene between the First Lady and Leo, plus the way the closing scenes were shot, could be setting us up for some kind of divorce/separation storyline later this year.

Posted by: disco

This is quickly becoming a "soap opera"...they're focusing more on the characters, and not what they're doing day-to-day in the West Wing. It reminds me of another show on NBC that used to be good.....

**cough*ER*cough**

Posted by: IJustLikeTivo

I hate to say it but this is getting a very sharky feeling.

I hope I am wrong, maybe just teething pains for the new regime. Sigh....

Posted by: hawkamer

This show is going downhill fast. There's no way the first lady would behave like this in Sorkinland. Wells is turning this show into a pure drama/soap opera. Very bad decision.

Posted by: Fustanella

I'd be okay with the season so far if they'd do one simple thing for me:

LOSE THE SHAKY "CRISIS" CAMERA SHOTS.

I don't find them dramatic or urgent - only annoying, and all the more so on my larger, better-quality monitor. They were trite years ago; TWW can do better.

Posted by: Timbeau

Before episodes started on Bravo, I hadn't watched more than one or two partial episodes of The West Wing. Now that it is on Bravo I've been watching it every night and LOVING it. I happened to be somewhere last night and caught about 5 minutes of the current show and I couldn' t believe it. It didn't seem like the same show!! While everything is crisp, clear and intelligent on the early episodes, the part I saw of last night's episode was none of that. I saw the scene between the First Lady and Leo, I couldn't hear/understand part of what the First Lady said, what I could hear seemed to have no maturity to the conversation, it seemed to be a total knee jerk reaction from the First Lady, totally out of character.

Thankfully I've still got a couple more "years" of episodes before I catch up. :)

Posted by: randyf

Well I think that FLOTUS is getting wayyyy too much airtime lately. Of course being that her daughter was just kidnapped / returned, I suppose it is in order.

I must say that I'm really liking the "Will Bailey" character though. he seems to be settling in pretty good.

(I'm liking him a lot more than Rob Lowe in his new job so far)..

Anyhoo.... I'm still enjoying WW. With ER leaving me wanting, I have to find fulfillment somewhere ! ( thank god for Third Watch!)

Looks like William Devane won't be hanging around though, huh ?

Posted by: disco

The best writing on NBC has moved to Boomtown. Plain and simple. I watch last week's episode of Boomtown, and the quickness...the wit...it's so SORKINESQUE.

Posted by: megory

I'm a long time West Wing addict. It has been marvelous, insightful about politics (I used to work in the Senate) witty, germane, and has handled heavy issues with just enough irreverence and humor to get subtle points across and to entertain at the same time.

This post-Sorkin WW, is downright dreadful, dull and depressing. There is no punch, no repartee, no cleverness, no "light-side" and no real reason to keep coming back--yet I do, hoping the pace will pick up.

West Wing doesn't have excitement or suspense in it . . . well, there is so much it DOESN'T have and so much it lacks (it doesn't even have closed-captioning so I can decipher what the characters are mumbling), that it is hard to find anything good to say.

The show is running on its past reputation, but its days are running out unless it is refilled with some joie and some story with resolution each episode.

Thank goddess we have so many years in reruns--because _they_ are worth watching, while I'm considering removing WW from my SP list. Maybe this season will be more appealing in 2-3 years.

What IS Sorkin doing now? Maybe he'll learn to love Rob Lowe (who I thought did a terrific job at being the iamusingly brilliant and pedantic fellow without arrogance and with quite a human touch) and go help him with The Lyons Den. (which I thought was pretty dull -- but it glows next to the New West Wing).

Pity that.

Posted by: hawkamer

quote:
Originally posted by megory
What IS Sorkin doing now? Maybe he'll learn to love Rob Lowe (who I thought did a terrific job at being the iamusingly brilliant and pedantic fellow without arrogance and with quite a human touch) and go help him with The Lyons Den.

I read a snippet on IMDB that Sorkin is in the early stages of developing a new show. I can't remember much in the way of details, just that the show was in the pre-development stage.

Furthermore, Lowe had a falling out with Sorkin, so I don't believe we'll ever see Sorkin's influence on the Lyon's Den.

Posted by: dmaneyapanda

quote:
Originally posted by disco
The best writing on NBC has moved to Boomtown. Plain and simple. I watch last week's episode of Boomtown, and the quickness...the wit...it's so SORKINESQUE.

Well, I wonder where it will go now, since Boomtown's been put on indefinite hiatus.

As an aside, I am surprised at the sheer volume of folks who are seeings such a dramatic difference between sorkin episodes and non-sorkin ones. Now, I love the guy as much as the rest of you, but I just don't see this night and day difference.

The first episode didn't have the witty banter, which is to be expected given the episodes theme. The second began to have it more, and with this episode we're back to having it even more (though still unintelligible at times, this is the one show I need to turn CC on and off for).

Just one man's opinion, but I don't think of Sorkin as the be-all-end-all of writing, nor do I feel his departure as sharply as the majority here seem to.

Posted by: Rob Helmerichs

quote:
Originally posted by hawkamer
Furthermore, Lowe had a falling out with Sorkin, so I don't believe we'll ever see Sorkin's influence on the Lyon's Den.

Yeah, about 15 minutes into the first season--I'm a little surprised Lowe stuck around as long as he did.

(The show was originally pitched as a star vehicle for Lowe; at the last minute, it was shifted to an ensemble piece, and then to add insult to injury, Martin Sheen [originally to be a recurring character] ended up being the focus of Lowe's star vehicle. I can't really blame Lowe for being upset, although it certainly made for a better show than it probably would have been.)

Posted by: jsmeeker

Several people already commented on the First Lady and Leo. But no one has mentioned what is going on with C.J. Clearly. she is very unhappy or uncomfortable with the whole assintation thing. Seems like she is very dissapointed in the decision and is struggling with how to deal with it on a personal level.. I suspet we'll see more of this, and it will most liekly affect her work. Somewhere, somehow, she'll slip up and make the administration look bad. I can just sense it.

Posted by: megory

quote:
Originally posted by hawkamer
. . . Furthermore, Lowe had a falling out with Sorkin, so I don't believe we'll ever see Sorkin's influence on the Lyon's Den.

Hey, duh! . . . I was just kidding!

Posted by: megory

quote:
Originally posted by jsmeeker
Several people already commented on the First Lady and Leo. But no one has mentioned what is going on with C.J.

Yeah . . . but, ya know, these writers don't create intrigue or fascination

The show tires me so much looking for a story-line, and trying to see through the wobbly camera and surface through the hour of morose gloom that I don't give a damn what they're doing and return gleefully to my Bravo reruns.

And the no closed-captioning is stupid too. Or maybe it is by-design, so no one will have to read what they wrote.

Posted by: whoknows55

Did they really need to label the republican leadership? Have they done things like that before and I missed it?

Posted by: Uther

West Wing is definitely sucking... I can't believe there are people who can't see the difference. I hope it gets better, but I don't think it will. Just look at the promos for next week.

Blah.

What they should have done is have Jed Bartlett die while John Goodman was President, then he could fire all the original cast, and it would be like a new show starting from scratch. Then we wouldn't be saying, "Toby wouldn't write crap like that! The President would never utter such doggerel! This plot sucks!" Ok, we might still be saying the last one. ;)

Posted by: Chandler Mike

Yes, it definitely has changed...it's almost hard to put a finger on it, but it's just wrong.

The dialogue is just not the same. Charlie isnt' even acting the same way. The crispness, quickness is gone.

I think this episode was the best so far, in terms of getting back to Sorkin-style interaction between the characters, but it still was noticeable for me.

Mike

Posted by: Squeak

quote:
Originally posted by megory

And the no closed-captioning is stupid too. Or maybe it is by-design, so no one will have to read what they wrote.

Close-captioning works great for me ... both on the new shows, and on Bravo.

I do agree, the shows lack the punch, and lovability of the characters. Sam was a great character, and so was Charlie -- both are gone now.

Posted by: dssdbs

quote:
Originally posted by dmaneyapanda
Well, I wonder where it will go now, since Boomtown's been put on indefinite hiatus.

As an aside, I am surprised at the sheer volume of folks who are seeings such a dramatic difference between sorkin episodes and non-sorkin ones. Now, I love the guy as much as the rest of you, but I just don't see this night and day difference.

The first episode didn't have the witty banter, which is to be expected given the episodes theme. The second began to have it more, and with this episode we're back to having it even more (though still unintelligible at times, this is the one show I need to turn CC on and off for).

Just one man's opinion, but I don't think of Sorkin as the be-all-end-all of writing, nor do I feel his departure as sharply as the majority here seem to.

I agree. If Sorkin was still onboard and this very episode had aired as is, you wouldn't see the same reaction as there is now. People just love to find things wrong, with Sorkin leaving, they have even more to try to nitpick and complain about. Pretty sad really...

Posted by: jsmeeker

quote:
Originally posted by Squeak
Close-captioning works great for me ... both on the new shows, and on Bravo.

I do agree, the shows lack the punch, and lovability of the characters. Sam was a great character, and so was Charlie -- both are gone now.

uh, Charlie is not gone.

Posted by: drew2k

As I was watching late last night, I definitely was aware of three things, which so many others have noted: 1) slow pace - both dialog and actual walks in the hallways. 2) muffled / muted dialog - I had to replay so many times and turn on the CC because I couldn't make out what was being said. Did they cut down on sound budget? 3) a sense of claustrophobia, that I never felt before watching the show. Even though they've added a full set for the residence, complete with kitchen, (oh! that's where the sound budget went!), I felt like every scene was suffocating. Was it too many closeups or the non-steady-cam effect? I don't know, but I didn't enjoy the "story" so much because of all of non-story related issues that were so apparent.

Posted by: Chandler Mike

quote:
Originally posted by drew2k
As I was watching late last night, I definitely was aware of three things, which so many others have noted: 1) slow pace - both dialog and actual walks in the hallways. 2) muffled / muted dialog - I had to replay so many times and turn on the CC because I couldn't make out what was being said. Did they cut down on sound budget? 3) a sense of claustrophobia, that I never felt before watching the show. Even though they've added a full set for the residence, complete with kitchen, (oh! that's where the sound budget went!), I felt like every scene was suffocating. Was it too many closeups or the non-steady-cam effect? I don't know, but I didn't enjoy the "story" so much because of all of non-story related issues that were so apparent.

I noticed all of that as well. The sound sucks, my wife was complaining about hearing them when walking down the hallways.

Mike

Posted by: drew2k

quote:
Originally posted by dssdbs
I agree. If Sorkin was still onboard and this very episode had aired as is, you wouldn't see the same reaction as there is now. People just love to find things wrong, with Sorkin leaving, they have even more to try to nitpick and complain about. Pretty sad really...

I think there's more to it than just Sorkin leaving. I already deleted last night's ep, so I don' know who directed it, but Tommy Schlame also left. He did such a great job with the cast that any new director also has a lot to measure up to. I still love the characters on this show, though, so I'm more than willing to wait for the head writer to introduce and develop his own style, for the actors to truly accept that style, and for a new director to learn the actors.

On your other point, though, I don't see how when several people experience the same problem with dialog, for example, it's "nitpicking". I think it points to either a technical flaw (microphones? editing?) or a direction issue.

If you do want to hear something I found positive about last night's show, though, Wells is certainly positioning the show for some good plotlines this season: CJ and her crisis of faith in the administration's policies; Abbey and Jed and a rift in the marriage (she's both First Lady and a wife - sure to cause political problems if she wants to leave Jed); a new vice-president who wants actual face-time with the president; a new rich-kid intern, still to be developed; etc. I can see the first couple of episodes as pure setup for the rest of the season, so I won't abandon the show just yet. :)

Posted by: Chandler Mike

quote:
Originally posted by drew2k
a new vice-president who wants actual face-time with the president;

"Uhh...yeaaaaah, I'm going to need you to come in on Sunday as well...uhh, yeaahhhhhh."

http://sportsmed.starwave.com/media/pg2/2002/0828/photo/officespace_i.jpg

:D

Mike

Posted by: Rob Helmerichs

People have beren complaining about the sound on West Wing for a long time, but I've never experienced any difficulty whatsoever...

Posted by: niferbee

It's definitely on it's way off of our SP list.

You look at some of the eps on Bravo and it just saddens me that a show that used to have such witty banter has gone so downhill.

We especially love the ep where the POTUS goes into the talk radio meeting and disses the Dr Laura like character and then Sam Seaborn walks over to her and grabs a crab puff.

Makes me wish for those days of WW.

Now I'll just have to rely on only Gilmore Girls for witty writing.

Posted by: megory

quote:
Originally posted by Squeak
Close-captioning works great for me ... both on the new shows, and on Bravo.

That's odd. I wonder why you get the closed-captioning and many of the rest of us don't. I always keep CC on and rely on it with muffled words -- even more than I depend on the rewind. I had to replay Abby's dissing Leo 3 times before I understood what she mumbled to him.

What do you think causes the difference in Closed Captioning? FWIW, I have cable, not DTV -- would that cause some discrepancy? I get the CC fine on Bravo . . .

Posted by: mjh

I definately see a difference in the quality of the writing of this show. And I don't like it. Still, I've read the posts about the reaction of FLOTUS, and frankly I don't think it's that surprising. How would you feel if you were in her situation? Personally, I would have a very difficult time controlling my anger if my spouse had done something that I believed put my child into that kind of danger. And that would be tempered by the realization that, as the president, he had other things to consider than just the safety of his kids. AND being the president, he's very likely going to have to make a similar decision again. I would feel confused and angry, and occasionally, when pressed, I'd blurt out the most hurtful thing I could think of saying. And in order not to do that all of the time, I'd keep my distance because I wouldn't like myself for being so hurtful.

Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but her reaction doesn't that odd to me.

Posted by: Rob Helmerichs

Her reaction isn't really surprising, but I think the presentation was more clumsy than I associate with this show. The same is true pretty much across the board; everybody's reactions seem off, not in what they do, but in how it's written.

Posted by: mrpurple

The show is sadly in decline.

Posted by: TampaThunder

quote:
Originally posted by megory
That's odd. I wonder why you get the closed-captioning and many of the rest of us don't. I always keep CC on and rely on it with muffled words -- even more than I depend on the rewind. I had to replay Abby's dissing Leo 3 times before I understood what she mumbled to him.

What do you think causes the difference in Closed Captioning? FWIW, I have cable, not DTV -- would that cause some discrepancy? I get the CC fine on Bravo . . .

I too have cable (Time Warner Tampa) and the closed captioning does not work for me on this show and others on NBC. Works fine for all the other channels/networks. Very irritating as I have a slight hearing loss and find CC very valuable. As a result I tend to stay away from shows on NBC and considering their offerings that's getting easier to do. :)

Back on topic, I think the First Lady's reaction to the Zoe affair and her blaming Leo/Jed is way overblown. She's supposed to be an intelligent woman and should realize that she's married first to the POTUS and 2nd to the father of her children. Would be real nice to have a President constantly second guessing his decisions based on how mad his wife would get at him. On 2nd thought that might actually have been a good thing during a recent unnamed administration. :D

I'm giving this writing team a chance. It really takes a while to get settled down after a change like this and I'm sure there's a lot of fine tuning to be done. WW is still better than 73.6% of everything else on. (Statistical analysis available upon request. :) )

Posted by: joeinma

quote:
Originally posted by njtaz
Why would the president even consult his wife on something like that or anything really.

Shades of Hillary Clinton I guess, everyone knows she was the real President! :rolleyes:

Posted by: Rob Helmerichs

quote:
Originally posted by joeinma
Shades of Hillary Clinton I guess, everyone knows she was the real President! :rolleyes:

And to be fair, their relationship has always been portrayed as one where they talk about everything--her sense of betrayal is perfectly understandable, it just wasn't well-portrayed.

Posted by: Timbeau

quote:
Originally posted by mjh
I definately see a difference in the quality of the writing of this show. And I don't like it. Still, I've read the posts about the reaction of FLOTUS, and frankly I don't think it's that surprising. How would you feel if you were in her situation? Personally, I would have a very difficult time controlling my anger if my spouse had done something that I believed put my child into that kind of danger. And that would be tempered by the realization that, as the president, he had other things to consider than just the safety of his kids. AND being the president, he's very likely going to have to make a similar decision again. I would feel confused and angry, and occasionally, when pressed, I'd blurt out the most hurtful thing I could think of saying. And in order not to do that all of the time, I'd keep my distance because I wouldn't like myself for being so hurtful.

Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but her reaction doesn't that odd to me.

I agree that it is in line with what the reaction of many mothers would be, but it is not in keeping with the character played by Stockard Channing.

Posted by: mykittykat88

quote:
Originally posted by megory
[
And the no closed-captioning is stupid too. Or maybe it is by-design, so no one will have to read what they wrote. [/B]

What no-closed captioning? The West Wing, ER and NYPD Blue are shows that I have to have CC on....and I have had CC on all of this season's West Wings.

Posted by: drew2k

quote:
Originally posted by mykittykat88
What no-closed captioning? The West Wing, ER and NYPD Blue are shows that I have to have CC on....and I have had CC on all of this season's West Wings.

There have been some intermittent problems geographically with CC. Two weeks ago, I had no CC, but the week before and after I did. I have DirecTV with NYC locals, but have no idea who was to blame the week I didn't have CC: DTV or NBC. Anyone with SA TiVo's in NYC market not have CC on any episodes this season? If you had them on all, it was definitely DTV's fault!

Posted by: Squeak

quote:
Originally posted by jsmeeker
uh, Charlie is not gone.

Yeah, I know...I meant the character that Charile was is gone -- yes the same actor is there, and the char is named Charlie, but something just doesn't seem the same.

Posted by: Kylep

quote:
Originally posted by Squeak
Yeah, I know...I meant the character that Charile was is gone -- yes the same actor is there, and the char is named Charlie, but something just doesn't seem the same.

I've taken his change as a guilt thing, which he will hopefully get over. I guess we'll see though.

Posted by: Philosofy

The problems I had:
1. FLOTUS. Her reason for being mad is ridiculous. What did she expect:

POTUS: "We're going to assasinate a terrorist who is part of the royal family of Qumar."
FLOTUS: "Oh, Jed, don't do that! Someone will figure out its us and kidnap Zoey in retaliation!"

:rolleyes:

And how the hell did the terrorists figure out it was us? Quite simply: they didn't. Remember, they downed an Israeli cabinet member (or was it ambassador) in retaliation. They didn't think we had anything to do with it.

2. The new VP. THIS is our guy! What? The Republicans want someone else? Uhhh, OK, sounds good to me.

Posted by: RyanPlante

I think she was mad that he didn't tell her about it AFTER she was kidnapped. She had to learn about it from the press conference.

that's how I took it.

ryan

Posted by: MacThor

I'm actually looking forward to Gary Cole - I believed him as an overachieving congressman from Colorado. He's a fairly versatile actor:

Playboy (on Monk)
Mike Brady
Evil Sheriff
Disc Jockey
and of course, uhh...yeah.....office drone boss.

Mac

Posted by: Rob Helmerichs

quote:
Originally posted by MacThor
I'm actually looking forward to Gary Cole - I believed him as an overachieving congressman from Colorado. He's a fairly versatile actor:

Playboy (on Monk)
Mike Brady
Evil Sheriff
Disc Jockey
and of course, uhh...yeah.....office drone boss.

Not to mention starship captain...

Posted by: MacThor

quote:
Originally posted by Medieval Guy
Not to mention starship captain...

Huh?

Posted by: Rob Helmerichs

He was the captain in Crusade.

Posted by: smak

Yah, it's obviously gone downhill from the great seasons 1 and 2, but it's still better than most things on TV.

I've been watching the first seasons on Bravo, and that is some fine television.

-smak-