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DVD-R To Become Extinct?
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Posted by: edhara

Geez... I REALLY hope this is not going to happen. I have three -R/RW burners...

----------------------------

http://www.dvd-recordable.org/modul...article&sid=825

According to a report from the Computex exhibition in Taipei the majority opinion is that the DVD-R format looks likely to lose the big format war in the next year or so. The logic behind this claim is that of the major drive manufacturers only Pioneer appears commited to DVD-R and even they are now hedging their bets with dual format products.

The claim is made in the German website PCWelt.de, which has posted a report from Computex with interesting information about coming DVD writers. Here are some of the other claims in the article:

* The DVD+R/RW format is likely to become the dominating format in 2004 according to most drive and media manufacturers.
* Lite-On will introduce an 8x DVD writer, the LDW-811S, in late October. A 12x model could follow as early as in the end of Q1 2004.
* AOpen will introduce a 12x DVD+R/RW writer in the beginning of 2004.
* 16x writers could appear in 2004 and will be the max speed for DVD burners.
* CMC, Ritek and an unamed Japanese manufacturer will start mass production of 8x DVD+R media in mid October.
* Sony has developed a dual layer DVD+R blank but it will likely never reach production stage because the drives needed to burn it will be too expensive.

Story source (translated through babelfish): pcwelt.de

Posted by: HomeTheaterJock

There are three pieces of anecdotal evidence I've seen that make me think that DVD-R will survive.

1. DVD-R blanks are cheaper and more plentiful than DVD +R
2. Most of the mod-able or multi region stand alone DVD players seem more compatible with DVD-Rs
3. It's looking like it's not that expensive to make DVD burners support bot +R and -R

Posted by: tivoman

I hope thats not true, I have a 6 1/2 year old DVD player that plays DVD-R disc fine with no problem.

Posted by: BattMan

quote:
Originally posted by edhara
Geez... I REALLY hope this is not going to happen. I have three -R/RW burners...

I wonder if you can part them and fix my BetaMax.

Posted by: disco

quote:
Originally posted by edhara
* Sony has developed a dual layer DVD+R blank but it will likely never reach production stage because the drives needed to burn it will be too expensive.

If Sony was smart, they'd produce them anyway: the DVD+R and DVD-R dual layer drives are coming, and I for one will purchase one when they arrive.

I think it's still too early to say whether DVD-R or DVD+R will win.

Posted by: Gromit

I thought the blanks were the same price now? I know there used to be a big difference, but hasn't that changed in the last 6 months or so?

Posted by: choccy

I'm shopping for a boat load of blanks right now. I can take - or + (Sony DRU-500). So far, I'm seeing lower prices for - ...

Posted by: zyzzx

I'd be sorry for those of you who have only -R drives if this happens. As long as +R doesn't become extinct I'm happy. I think both will survive for the short term.

Posted by: HomeTheaterJock

quote:
Originally posted by disco
If Sony was smart, they'd produce them anyway: the DVD+R and DVD-R dual layer drives are coming, and I for one will purchase one when they arrive.

I think it's still too early to say whether DVD-R or DVD+R will win.

Do we know if dual layer drives will use the same media or will there be new higher priced dual layer media?

Posted by: disco

quote:
Originally posted by HomeTheaterJock
Do we know if dual layer drives will use the same media or will there be new higher priced dual layer media?

The dual layer -R & +R drives will require new dual layer discs - which will most likely be more expensive than single layer. The price will drop, though, as usual.

Posted by: bobcarn

I wouldn't worry at all about having a -R drive. This is different from the VHS/Betamax wars a while back for one main reason... the discs you create with your -R drive will still be able to be used in most of the DVD players!

Unlike Beta, you don't need special DVD players to play the -R discs. So look at the worst case scenario: DVD-R becomes obsolete tomorrow. What would happen to the -R drive users?

1) You'd still have your drive, and you'd still be able to burn DVDs like you always could.
2) You'd still be able to buy -R blanks for a long time.
3) As with all computer technology, the drives would break down after some time, and you would wind up replacing them with new ones. Except the new ones would be whatever standard is in place at the time.
4) Then you'll just keep on burning new discs using the new media, but still able to use your old media.

I had to make up my mind as to which format to buy when I got my DVD burner. I chose +R technology, but at the time, +R didn't have all the support planned like it does now, so it still looked iffy. But the reasoning I came up with made me feel comfortable that even if the drive I chose became obsolete, I'd still be able to use it, and I'd still be able to use the discs I burned.

Posted by: Cletus

I think both are here to stay - even if the market is skewed towards one or the other in the end. After all, we've had mac-vs-pc arguments for years, and neither is going away. And they're fun. :)

Either way, I'm covered - I have a ą drive. ;)

Posted by: Raj

I think this is more marketing FUD perpetrated by the +R camp. They've been doing a LOT of that. I don't see DVD-R going away anytime soon.

Posted by: mkazen

What Raj said...

Posted by: zaknafein

This is why I have a DRU-500A. I couldn't care less which format wins in the long run.

Posted by: old7

Both formats will continue to exist because there are some DVD PLAYERS that will recognize one format but not the other and still others players that recognize the other but not the former. If there was one format that was recognized by all DVD players and the media was cheaper then I would be concerned that the other format would disappear. Till then expect to see both formats.

There are far too many drives of both formats to eliminate one or the other. Now with most drives being capable of both formats does it really matter?

Did you see the specs on the new HD-DVD format....:D :D

-Old7

Posted by: willardcpa

quote:
"will recognize one format but not the other and still others players that recognize the other but not the former."

HFC:eek: I thought there were just two formats - now you tell me there's three. "one format", "the other" and "the former":confused: :D

Posted by: logic88

quote:
Originally posted by choccy
I'm shopping for a boat load of blanks right now. I can take - or + (Sony DRU-500). So far, I'm seeing lower prices for - ...

What kind of prices are you seeing? I'm in the market for full coverage inkjet printable DVDRs. The only ones that I've found are some printable (up to hub ring) Samsung/BeAll 4X DVD-Rs for $134/100. Otherwise, I'm partial to printable (up to stack ring) Ritek G03 1X/2X DVD-Rs for $85/100.

Posted by: eric_mcgovern

Well for consumers there is no war.

All the major players are producing dual format burners. I just buy whatever is cheaper at the time.

Posted by: Bryanmc

In my production almost all of my clients request DVD-R (if they know what they're talking about).

Only one has ever wanted +R.

Posted by: jsmeeker

I'm surprised people say -R is more available.. Everytime I am in a store that sells blanks CDs and DVDs, I notice that there are more +R media choices than -R choices... More brands, more package sizes, etc..

But as long as -R media sticks around for a long time, I'll be cool, as I will have a -R burner in the future.

Posted by: edhara

It's been my personal experience that -R media has a tendency to be slightly more compatible with older dvd players than +R. I guess we'll have to see what happens...

Posted by: dswallow

quote:
Originally posted by jsmeeker
I'm surprised people say -R is more available.. Everytime I am in a store that sells blanks CDs and DVDs, I notice that there are more +R media choices than -R choices... More brands, more package sizes, etc..

That's because everybody keeps buying the -R so you never see much of it and the +R is just sitting on the shelves accumulating. ;)

You can get DVD-R media much cheaper than DVD+R, and that's always been the case ever since there've been two formats to choose from, though the difference has narrowed from about a 200% premium to about 60% over the last year and a half or so.

In bulk (200 pieces), I see deals for DVD-R 4x media at about $0.70 each and DVD+R 4x media is about $1.15 each.

Posted by: holee

Where do you guys usually buy your DVD media from? The best prices I see are round $2/disc for +R or -R.

Posted by: Cletus

http://www.rima.com

Posted by: dswallow

quote:
Originally posted by holee
Where do you guys usually buy your DVD media from? The best prices I see are round $2/disc for +R or -R.

Online. I just go to www.pricewatch.com and check out the top 5 or so DVD-R dealers' web sites.

Posted by: Bryanmc

I get all mine from Rima.

Been very happy with them.

Posted by: Raj

quote:
Originally posted by jsmeeker
I'm surprised people say -R is more available.. Everytime I am in a store that sells blanks CDs and DVDs, I notice that there are more +R media choices than -R choices... More brands, more package sizes, etc..

But as long as -R media sticks around for a long time, I'll be cool, as I will have a -R burner in the future.

I think this is at the heart of the issue.

Licensing for +R and +RW is supposedly cheaper than that for DVD-R and DVD-RW, this is why I suppose drives and media are more plentiful.

Of course in a pinch you can always go to the apple store and use Apple DVD-R's (which are just rebranded TDK or Pioneer I think)

Posted by: Dan203

FYI: Anyone who's looking to get some blank DVDs. Amazon.com currently has 25 packs of Memorex 4x DVD+R and DVD-R media for $29.95 each with free shipping. It's the best deal I've seen in a long time for low quantities of 4x media.

Click Here for DVD+Rs

Click Here for DVD-Rs

Dan

Posted by: holee

quote:
Originally posted by Bryanmc
I get all mine from Rima.

Been very happy with them.

Is there a specific brand you usually buy?

Posted by: Dan203

quote:
Originally posted by edhara
* 16x writers could appear in 2004 and will be the max speed for DVD burners.

Now that would be cool. Less then 4 minutes to burn a complete DVD, or 7 if it's dual layered, would so much better then the 15 I have to wait now for my 4x burner.

Dan

Posted by: holee

I noticed that on my Sony 4X burner, that -R media will burn faster than +R. Nero usually says +R will be burned at 2X because the source is too slow (the hard drive), but for some reason it doesn't seem to happen on -R.

Admittedly, I've only burned two -R discs and about 10 +R's, but the +R's will never burn at 4X. I've tried both Memorex and Fujitsu discs. The Fujitsu's didn't say 2X or 4X, but the Memorex does say supports 4X burning.

I don't know why Nero would say the source is too slow to begin with though. What can I do to get the drive to burn at 4X all the time?

Posted by: Cletus

quote:
Originally posted by holee
Is there a specific brand you usually buy?

Ritek.

Posted by: Bryanmc

quote:
Originally posted by Cletus
Ritek.

Ditto that.

Inkjet printable.

Posted by: midas

I've had really good luck using Meritline .

Posted by: Dan203

quote:
Originally posted by holee
What can I do to get the drive to burn at 4X all the time?

Try different software. If you're burning DVD movies I'd suggest building the DVD on the hard drive first. Then use ImgTool Classic* to build an ISO image. And then finally using DVD Decrypter to burn the ISO image to the DVD.**

I use this process all the time when making DVD movies and I always get full 4x speed on my Dell (rebranded NEC 1100A) DVD+R/W drive. :)

Dan

* There is another version of ImagTool called ImgTool Burn with built in burning, but it uses Nero and if Nero is your problem then that wont do you much good.

** The new version of ImgTool Classic (build 8) actually supports linking directly to DVD Decrypter so that once the image is created it uses DVD Decrypter to burn it automaticlly. I have yet to try this feature but it sounds promising.

Posted by: Bryanmc

quote:
Originally posted by midas
I've had really good luck using Meritline .

I used to use Meritline for all my disks, cases, etc. but had a falling out with them so I don't use them anymore.

The ACCU product it good and you'll do well with them, I just had a beef with the company.

On the flip side, RIMA has taken care of me very well.

Posted by: midas

quote:
Originally posted by Bryanmc
I used to use Meritline for all my disks, cases, etc. but had a falling out with them so I don't use them anymore.

The ACCU product it good and you'll do well with them, I just had a beef with the company.

On the flip side, RIMA has taken care of me very well.

I'll have to check them out. So far I've bought from Meritline 4 times and haven't had any issues. But I'llcheck out RIMA in the future.

Posted by: Raj

quote:
Originally posted by Cletus
Ritek.

I usually buy Memorex, they seem to work well for me.

I think many brands are rebranded Ritek or something else.

I got burned with cheap DVD-R's once (CD-Recordable.com), never me with cheapies again.

Posted by: Bryanmc

quote:
Originally posted by Raj
I got burned with cheap DVD-R's once (CD-Recordable.com), never me with cheapies again.

Check out the media FAQ at dvdrhelp.com:

http://www.dvdrhelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=172496

Here's a selection:

Just like with everything else in the world, I ALWAYS get what I pay for. If I pay extra money for expensive DVD MEDIA then i'm surely going to get the best quality, right?

This is the ABSOLUTE BIGGEST FALLACY regarding DVD MEDIA. I have seen many posts where people think that they are getting the best quality media simply because they spent a few extra dollars. This couldn't be more false. Yes, MANY times in the real world, you get what you pay for. You won't get fillet mignon for the price of Salisbury steak, and you won't get a Ferrari for the price of a Ford. In many cases you do get what you pay for. But in the world of DVD MEDIA, you absolutely can NOT associate price with quality.

There's a bit of a learning curve to understand how to read different media and see what's what but once you do it's easy to buy with confidence and look for the best price. There are tons of good tools at dvdrhelp.com

The best media I've found (and remember I provide disks to many different clients to use on hundreds of different machines) I get for less than $1.00 a disk.

Once I switched to Ritek from Rima, I've not had a single problem come back to me about being able to play the disk. I had occasional trouble with ACCUs.

Posted by: Cletus

I have bought Memorex DVD-R twice, but never again! The combined failure rate was 80%. :(

And they were from different places and 2 months apart, so it probably wasn't just a bad batch.

Posted by: old7

In my office we have access to DVD-R, DVD+R and DVD combo recorders. Prior to purchasing my Pioneer A06 combo recorder I tested 20+ different types of DVD media. As a requirement the media needed to play in all of my DVD players and in most DVD players of immediate family, other office workers and a few close friends. Price would be a secondary consideration after selecting media that preformed. Speed and availability would be included in the final selection.

I have a Blaupunkt portable DVD player that refused to recognize DVD+R media. There were several other players that had issues with some DVD+R media but not others. I encountered no players that did not play any DVD-R media. Based on that I eliminated DVD+R media as a choice.

Based on my testing I use Ritek DVD-R 4x media. I found that the G03 media was acceptable, but the price difference was minimal compared to the increase in speed. I previously used G03 media with my Pioneer A04 DVD-R recorder.

There maybe many DVD players that don't like DVD-R media, but in over 35 DVD players I didn't encounter any. We recommend products to many of our clients. We keep several DVDs in the office for customers to test in their DVD players prior to making any recommendations. We still haven't found any that don't like all DVD-R media.

-Old7

Posted by: logic88

quote:
Originally posted by Bryanmc
Check out the media FAQ at dvdrhelp.com:

http://www.dvdrhelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=172496

Here's a selection:

Just like with everything else in the world, I ALWAYS get what I pay for. If I pay extra money for expensive DVD MEDIA then i'm surely going to get the best quality, right?

This is the ABSOLUTE BIGGEST FALLACY regarding DVD MEDIA. I have seen many posts where people think that they are getting the best quality media simply because they spent a few extra dollars. This couldn't be more false. Yes, MANY times in the real world, you get what you pay for. You won't get fillet mignon for the price of Salisbury steak, and you won't get a Ferrari for the price of a Ford. In many cases you do get what you pay for. But in the world of DVD MEDIA, you absolutely can NOT associate price with quality.

You can certainly can associate price with quality, at least with the absolute cheapest media. I would not touch Princo, Accu, or Optodisc again even if they were 50% cheaper instead of being 20-25% cheaper. I would pay the extra premium for Ritek since being burned with a spindle of essentially useless media is not a pleasant experience.

Posted by: Bryanmc

quote:
Originally posted by logic88
You can certainly can associate price with quality, at least with the absolute cheapest media. I would not touch Princo, Accu, or Optodisc again even if they were 50% cheaper instead of being 20-25% cheaper. I would pay the extra premium for Ritek since being burned with a spindle of essentially useless media is not a pleasant experience.

Yeah, but I think the point of that section of the FAQ is that you don't have to pay $2/disk to get quality. You can find disks for around $1 that do just as well if not better.

Posted by: choccy

So, anyone buy any disks lately and get a really good price? :)

Posted by: Peter000

quote:
Originally posted by choccy
So, anyone buy any disks lately and get a really good price? :)

I just got a batch of printible BeAll 1x-4x DVD-R from Meritline for $1.34 apiece... I had to buy 100 to get that price.

In my Video business I'm getting more and more requests for DVD's, so I've been investigating them as well... I took a leap of faith with the BeAll media, because I was sucked into the promotional stuff about how Nasa uses them, and they're rated really high, etc. So far, I've burned about 20 discs, and none of them has failed. I use a Primera Bravo DVD duplicator/printer with an AO5 drive. I had some problems with cheaper media in that drive, but none of my other drives. (specifically, the meritline brand).

The BeAll printibles look fantastic... practically like store bought when through printing, etc. The extra printing area near the spindle (the stacking ring) is very cool too. It allows for a bit more flexibility on the layout of the face.

My intuition is that DVD-Rs are going to be around for awhile. Apple doesn't even support +R in their DVD creation aps yet. I think they'll, at least for awhile, produce dual format burners. Single format drives will fall by the wayside (I just bought a dual Pioneer A06, as a matter of fact) but the formats themselves will linger on, and the media will be readily available for some time.

My concern/anticipation is the new dual layer burners. Those would be a BOON to mid-level producers such as myself. As it is, I hate putting more than 1.5 hours of video on a DVD for quality reasons. Basically doubling that capacity to 3 hours would save alot of headaches and conversion time to MPeg2.

And I've heard tale that the shelf life of the DVD-Rs is not very long... a few years. I haven't seen any hard evidence of this though. If THIS is true, then they'll need to come up with a completely different format for burning.

And finally, the internal drive in the Pioneer TiVo unit is a -R drive. :-) That alone makes me faithful to the format.