TiVo Community Forums Archives

TiVoCommunity.com
(c)opyright 1995-2005 All rights reserved
indexcheckTC
This area is a static history of posts in the TiVo Community Forum Archive.
This archive history was made for the simple indexing of search sites like Google.

Pages:1

ratings
(Click here to view the original thread with full colors/images)

Posted by: rtype

I guess I don't really understand Nielsen ratings and their impact on decisions networks make so these are actually serious questions.

I like Enterprise and Smallville and want them to continue airing but... how do they survive with 2 million viewers when Brotherhood of Poland was pulled for only averaging 7 million and Coupling averaging 12.3 (note: this ratio was actually brought DOWN by factoring in the Whoopi they showed in its place one week). In fact, Whoopi to date (on the same network mind you) is only averaging 9.2 million.

So I guess there are a couple of things I don't understand:

1. I don't understand the relationship WB and Paramount have to the other networks. What is a good watermark for a show to hit to be considered successful by their standards?

2. I don't understand why some programs with higher ratings are killed on a network that decides to keep programs with lower ratings--especially if it isn't a time slot issue? (I understand that Saturday morning will bring in fewer viewers than Wednesday primetime.)

Posted by: jsmeeker

Different networks have different standards... WB and UPN will typically get less viewership than shows on NBC, CBS, ABC, and even Fox. In addition to seeing the total rating and share, you also need to compare a show's rating to other shows that are on in the same time slot.. You also may very well want to see the show's rating for specific demogrpahic.. It may do relaitvely "poor" across the board, but a show may do well in the target demogrpahic.

Posted by: vikrampant

I am no expert, but I'll go by what I've been reading over the past months in the WSJ.

The reason Coupling and bigger network shows fail is the lack of a target audience. The WB and to an extent UPN have a major target audience.

A target audience and Nielsen is all advertisers look at to figure out where their $$$ goes. The WB when Dawson's Creek and Felicity were in their heyday got loads of 18-34 ad dollars, though the viewers hardly numbered NBC primetime viewers.

Network sare slamming Nielsen, but I believe networks shouldn't. Networks gotta realize just cause they air a show, like Coupling, on a Thursday near Friends doesn't mean American will watch. There are 99 other cable channels, and for us in this forum we have TiVo. My TiVo grabs Modern Marvels and the Family Guy, if it deletes, so what, but I love watching them when I want.

Getting back to your point, don't worry that much about viewership numbers. Smallville is at the centerpiece of the WB and Enterprise has a core following. As long as they are highly rated on their particular network, then they'll be on. You can't compare WB/UPN to NBC, CBS, etc. (goto zap2it.com/television/news/ratings, sinc eI'm new I can't post URLS) WB/UPN are in the 2.x while the big boys are in th 7.x/8.x range. ABC is in trouble.

The big boys at these networks make the calls. I personally think shows are kept by big wigs making the calls. Coupling was just too hyped and think NBC goes, "ah axe it, it's cost too much."

But this is all my opinion, hope some of your questions got answered. Others should be able to help or provide better insight.

-- Vikram

Posted by: ufo4sale

I don't think anyone does. There old and Archaic.

Posted by: DougF

I would guess that there are a lot of factors involved in deciding to cancel a show.

UPN and WB have far less affiliates than CBS, ABC, NBC and FOX as I understand it. So, 2 million viewers for "Enterprise" may be a higher percentage of the available audience for a UPN show than say 7 million for a CBS show like "Brotherhood...".

There's the demographic thing to consider as well. If a show is doing well in the 18-49 group (the key group for advertisers), it can still make money even if total viewership is down.

Some shows are more expensive to produce than others. Each of the "Friends", for example, gets $1 million per episode. That makes the cost of each installment $6 million before any other production costs. A less costly show may get to hang on longer than a more expensive show with equally low ratings.

A lot of shows are produced by production companies and sold to networks. For example, Warner Bros. produced "ER" and NBC buys it for something like $9 million per episode (down from the high of $13 million a few years ago). "Enterprise" is produced by Paramount for UPN, but both are under the same corporate umbrella. Even if UPN is taking it in the shorts a little right now, the long term financial prospects for "Enterprise" are probably pretty good. It's moving closer to the magical 100 episode mark, which makes for a nice syndicated product package not to mention future DVD sales. Paramount stands to make a lot of bucks from "Enterprise" over the years.

The day/time slot is a factor, too. A show pulling in 5 million viewers Saturday nights at 9:00 will probably last longer than it would pulling in the same amount of viewers on Thursday nights in any slot.

Plus, times are just different now. If I remember correctly, "Cheers" finished it's first season dead last. It was allowed to slowly grow an audience and went on to run 11 years and be one of the most popular and beloved sitcoms of all time. NBC needed "Coupling" to come out of the gates as a monster hit. They are looking at the last season of "Friends", "ER" finishing it's 10th season (and only remaining original cast member Noah Wyle only signed through the end of the 11th) and even the hit "Will and Grace" is aging. Their Thursday night dominance is slowing coming to a halt. Movies are the same way anymore. The opening weekend is pretty much all that matters.

I may be way off base, and I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong. :) But, it seems there are a lot more factors than just the gross number of viewers watching. Of course, I could be grasping at straws since, like you, I really want "Enterprise" to continue.

Posted by: bdowell

I'll see if I can add some thoughts here...

For your number 1 below, WB and UPN for example are typically available in fewer homes. They are not always carried on cable systems, and may be hard to get by over-the-air equipment. So, the WB and UPN affiliates may be looking at say only 60% of an available market, while their bigger network cousins may be seeing closer to 95 - 100% of an available market.

With that in mind, if the WB airs a show that is supposed to be getting them viewers in the so-called all import 18-34 age group, and they find that they are getting 60% or more of their available target audience to tune in, they are quite happy.

Note that for them, their available audience is already say only 60% of the bigger networks available audience, so instead of say 10 million homes, they are looking at 6 million homes. Within those 6 million homes, if they have 60% of the viewers tuning in, they are hitting say 4 million homes.

That still leaves 6 million homes in the original market that could be going to NBC, or CBS, or the other bigger networks.

Looked at on the surface, it seems that 6 million or so homes are being ignored or left to go elsewhere, but it's still a very reasonable number, especially if it's the target audience -- those with disposable income, likely to buy products that are targeted at them, for example: beer, cars, clothing, and other things aimed at those that reportedly have money and will waste it.

The networks tend to ignore older audiences and/or shows/programs that skew old. They do that because they believe their market research that shows that older audience members are less likely to switch brands, less likely to splurge money on purchases, and traditionally have other more fiscally conservative traits. The advertisers are actually the ones that tend to ignore the market, but again, because the market research says that putting money into advertising that is aimed at older audiences (34 and above) generally provides very poor returns.

With that said, there are still very successful programs that tend to skew old. CBS has done it for years. Everyone Loves Raymond skews old. CSI tends to skew towards older viewers. Their weekend programming (especially) tends to skew towards older viewers. And those viewers do see advertisements. They may not be for the same products -- Milk of Magnesia anyone?, Buick luxury cars? -- but the advertising is there.

The trick is that the nets typically can't sell their ad time for as much when the programming skews older. The advertisers rely on the tried and true info and figure that advertising to older viewers tends to get them fewer customers, so why spend money there.

On the other hand, if you have a program that tends to hit across the board for viewership (back to Everybody Loves Raymond example for a minute, a show that an entire family can watch together and enjoy), then you've hit the holy grail of programming. You can sell advertising to all target audiences, and collect major dollars when doing so.

As to your number 2 below, that's a tough nut to crack. Sometimes shows that aren't hits are left on the schedule because the expectations are lower for those shows, or because the networks own the studios that produced the programming.

In cases where the network owns the production companies, the programming stays because it's cheap.

There may be cases where the programming is coming from producers of a hit show that is very important to a line-up. For example, Carsey-Warner had a string of hits, and in order to keep them from taking the hit programs elsewhere, they were able to greenmail their network partners into carrying programming that wasn't as good and giving it more of a chance to survive.

Sometimes programs are left on the schedule because the network has nothing else to put in it's place. They don't want to over use repeats and pay big repurposing fees, and they had a commitment to a show so they let it run.

There's also big time competition on some nites, and because of it, the networks get stupid and don't realize if they moved their programming to a different night, they may do very well with it.

Unfortunately the networks are not run by people that understand their current audiences. Much of the time, the networks work using older rules, and they've failed to realize that with the advent of TiVos and OnDemand programming, and the glut of channels and programming that is out there, that the viewers want what they want, when they want it.

If the nets had brains, the original Star Trek series wouldn't have been cancelled, Gilligan and friends would have been on the Island for more seasons, and some other programming would never have seen the light of day.

Thankfully, if you've got a TiVo, you do have choices. You can find good programs and watch them at times that are convenient for you. If you've got the DirecTV PVRs powered by TiVo, then you've got a big advantage in multiple tuners, so little or no missed shows, even on nights with major schedules battles going on (Friends vs. Survivor vs. Tru Calling anyone?)

At some point, the networks will realize much of their mistakes, and will start giving some shows more and better chances of success while keeping trash like "The Mullets" off the schedule entirely. At least we can hope that will be the case.

quote:
Originally posted by rtype
I guess I don't really understand Nielsen ratings and their impact on decisions networks make so these are actually serious questions.

I like Enterprise and Smallville and want them to continue airing but... how do they survive with 2 million viewers when Brotherhood of Poland was pulled for only averaging 7 million and Coupling averaging 12.3 (note: this ratio was actually brought DOWN by factoring in the Whoopi they showed in its place one week). In fact, Whoopi to date (on the same network mind you) is only averaging 9.2 million.

So I guess there are a couple of things I don't understand:

1. I don't understand the relationship WB and Paramount have to the other networks. What is a good watermark for a show to hit to be considered successful by their standards?

2. I don't understand why some programs with higher ratings are killed on a network that decides to keep programs with lower ratings--especially if it isn't a time slot issue? (I understand that Saturday morning will bring in fewer viewers than Wednesday primetime.)

Posted by: doom1701

Short hijack--anyone here ever done a Nielsen study? We got contacted this week for sometime this month. Should be interesting telling them what I watched and when.