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Carnivale 01x12 "The Day That Was The Day"
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Posted by: zaknafein
Wow.
Great finale. I knew one thing though: We were going to end the season the exact same way we started it; wondering what the hell is going on.
Who IS management? What are his motivations for getting Ben to kill Lodz?
Why did Appolonia try to kill Sofie? (and did she succeed, and what about Jonsey?)
And how do the main two storylines correlate? We saw what appeared to be considerable foreshadowing in the last episode with Ben stopping Justin, but nothing came of it in the finale.
Great stuff.
Posted by: g-man
I think Sofie is the daughter of Brother Justin and the mom was not too happy about that. I think it was him in the rape sequence they showed involving Sofie's mom.
Posted by: FatherTed
Wow! ..... Wow!
What an incredible episode. Very well written, acted and produced. Not that's what a season finale/cliffhanger is supposed to be like. I had the lights dimmed, the home theater cranked up and didn't move.
Did anyone notice the lighting in the 'kill me' sequence? It was subtle but very telling.
I also loved the 'deal with the devil comment'. Very appropriate.
That last 10 minutes or so was very powerful.
I started watching about 40 minutes after it started so I didn't realize there was going to be the chat on the HBO site. I came in really late (about the last 15 min). Clancy Brown said while we're waiting for the next season to watch the reruns :) and to watch the upcoming "Deadwood" on HBO.
I've never bought any DVD collections from the HBO series but I'm definitely getting this one when it comes out.
Posted by: drew2k
When Appolonia called for Lodz, she revealed something to him that shocked him, and he essentially said she was mad (as in crazy). I'm guessing Appolonia told Lodz who Sofie's father was, but all we know for sure is Appolonia was raped by the man with tattoos. We still don't know if that's Justin, but it's obvious from Sophie's revenge on Clayton and Libby that Sophie has a dark side. Along the lines of keeping us guessing who was good and who was evil, I never would have figured Sophie for being evil, but to me that is the insinuation after Appolonia tried to kill her in the fire.
All in all, I think it was a great ending, because the ending left me wanting to see more. The closing credits bugged me though, because now I'm trying to figure out who John Gries played in this episode. He was a co-star in this one, and also in the premier, but I don't remember seeing his name in other episodes. (If you don't know him, he played Broots on The Pretender, co-starring with Patrick Bauchau.)
Posted by: lordargent
Ben tried to kill himself, but it didn't fly.
I'm still really wondering about this guy with the tree tattoos. Has the chance to be a truly legendary figure.
Posted by: LooseWiring
I personally really liked the finale but I do have one issue. They should have extended the scene with Scudder and answered some questions.
The fact that HBO hasn't commited to season two leaves the possibility that this entire series will be wasted time.
Posted by: suzyq
quote:
Originally posted by drew2k
When Appolonia called for Lodz, she revealed something to him that shocked him, and he essentially said she was mad (as in crazy). I'm guessing Appolonia told Lodz who Sofie's father was, but all we know for sure is Appolonia was raped by the man with tattoos.
I don't know if she revealed who Sofie's father was, because after Appolonia communicated with Lodz, he said: "No, not her!" and then accused her of being mad. It left me with the impression that either there was an understanding between Lodz and Appolonia that someone needed to be sacrificed or some other kind of common understanding between the two.
Posted by: suzyq
quote:
Originally posted by LooseWiring
I personally really liked the finale but I do have one issue. They should have extended the scene with Scudder and answered some questions.
The fact that HBO hasn't commited to season two leaves the possibility that this entire series will be wasted time.
Was it Scudder in the Ben suicide scene? That was the same man that was in the confessional with Ben in an earlier episode, right? :confused:
Posted by: zaknafein
quote:
Originally posted by suzyq
Was it Scudder in the Ben suicide scene? That was the same man that was in the confessional with Ben in an earlier episode, right? :confused:
Yep, it was Scudder in both scenes. Remember how they said Ben and Scudder are alike? Well, we now know they also share the same ability.
Posted by: FatherTed
quote:
Originally posted by LooseWiring
The fact that HBO hasn't commited to season two leaves the possibility that this entire series will be wasted time.
In the part of the chat I got to see both actors specifically commented on Season 2 so it sounds like it's a done deal.
Posted by: mp2526
quote:
Originally posted by suzyq
I don't know if she revealed who Sofie's father was, because after Appolonia communicated with Lodz, he said: "No, not her!" and then accused her of being mad. It left me with the impression that either there was an understanding between Lodz and Appolonia that someone needed to be sacrificed or some other kind of common understanding between the two.
My thoughts were that Appolonia saw the future and Ben had picked Sofie to die and this upset Lodz. But, now, I'm not sure what that all was about.
Posted by: mp2526
quote:
Originally posted by zaknafein
Who IS management? What are his motivations for getting Ben to kill Lodz?
Maybe management is the German guy. I don't think there was any real motivation to kill Lodz other than he was just a pawn and maybe management could sense Ben's dislike/distrust for Lodz and knew that Ben would not have a problem killing him if he knew the truth, and gave Lodz his eye sight back so that Ben would think Lodz did it for selfish reasons.
Posted by: Rob Helmerichs
And Lodz was already on Management's bad side (hence his being replaced by Samson). Perhaps Management only let Lodz back into the trailer to set him up...
Posted by: mp2526
quote:
Originally posted by FatherTed
In the part of the chat I got to see both actors specifically commented on Season 2 so it sounds like it's a done deal.
At the beginning of the chat someone asked about season two, and they pretty much avoided any solid answers. Saying something like that was a question for the HBO executives. I personally think there will be a season two.
Posted by: Big_Daddy
quote:
Originally posted by mp2526
My thoughts were that Appolonia saw the future and Ben had picked Sofie to die and this upset Lodz. But, now, I'm not sure what that all was about.
That was exactly what I thought! But that's not the way it worked out. Wow, Appolonia doesn't talk much, but when she does, she sure has something to say.
I guess we'll just have to see how many characters were actually killed in this season finale. My money is that Sophie will survive - she seems too important. I will also miss Lodz; assuming he's actually dead.
Can't wait for the DVD's. Or season 2.
Posted by: JerryLBell
quote:
Originally posted by g-man
I think Sofie is the daughter of Brother Justin and the mom was not too happy about that. I think it was him in the rape sequence they showed involving Sofie's mom.
I doubt that the rapist was Brother Justin. The rapist was shown has being heavily tattooed on theback and Brother Justin's back is bare of tattoos (though not bare of self-flagellating-enduced whip scars!).
Posted by: madman1949
The voice of management is "Linda Hunt"!
Madman
Posted by: suzyq
quote:
Originally posted by Big_Daddy
I will also miss Lodz; assuming he's actually dead.
I'm pretty sure he's dead because the last shot was of Ruthie gasping for breath. Ben had to take a life to give it, so the logical conclusion is that he's dead. But, with this show you never know! ;)
Posted by: mp2526
quote:
Originally posted by madman1949
The voice of management is "Linda Hunt"!
Madman
Yeah, thats been said before, however, that doesn't mean Linda Hunt is Management. James Earl Jones is Darth Vaders voice, but he ain't Darth Vader. Plus, they keep referring to Management as "Him".
Posted by: madman1949
Did you catch Lodz calling management "MY PRINCE"? I loved how management gave Lodz his sight back only to SEE Ben kill him...
Madman
Posted by: ClutchBrake
quote:
Originally posted by drew2k
The closing credits bugged me though, because now I'm trying to figure out who John Gries played in this episode. He was a co-star in this one, and also in the premier, but I don't remember seeing his name in other episodes. (If you don't know him, he played Broots on The Pretender, co-starring with Patrick Bauchau.)
He was the lawman looking for Ben. He was wearing a cowboy hat and asked Samson and Jonesy if they had seen Ben.
Posted by: Big_Daddy
quote:
Originally posted by suzyq
I'm pretty sure he's dead because the last shot was of Ruthie gasping for breath. Ben had to take a life to give it, so the logical conclusion is that he's dead. But, with this show you never know! ;)
That's my general feeling - but you don't know. For example...
It depends on how much Management wants/needs Lodz around, and can Management "redirect" Ben's power? For example, potentially 3 other characters died in this episode - not at Ben's hand, but they still may be dead. Could one of them pay the price for Ruthie's return? And I'm not sure of the significance of Lodz's eyes returning to normal after Ben choked him.
I do think Lodz is gone. Which is too bad - he's been a wonderfully creepy character. Although I guess he can still return in Ben's dreams.
Posted by: FatherTed
quote:
Originally posted by mp2526
Yeah, thats been said before, however, that doesn't mean Linda Hunt is Management. James Earl Jones is Darth Vaders voice, but he ain't Darth Vader. Plus, they keep referring to Management as "Him".
Very good point... and the 'real' Darth Vader is David Prowse. I've met him before. REALLY big guy.
Posted by: suzyq
quote:
Originally posted by Big_Daddy
That's my general feeling - but you don't know. For example...
It depends on how much Management wants/needs Lodz around, and can Management "redirect" Ben's power? For example, potentially 3 other characters died in this episode - not at Ben's hand, but they still may be dead. Could one of them pay the price for Ruthie's return? And I'm not sure of the significance of Lodz's eyes returning to normal after Ben choked him.
I do think Lodz is gone. Which is too bad - he's been a wonderfully creepy character. Although I guess he can still return in Ben's dreams.
Yeah, I wondered if the other characters, who apparently died at the end of the episode could somehow be substituted for Lodz. I guess we'll have to wait (keep our fingers crossed that the show will return) and see.
I don't have a clue what the significance of Lodz's eyes retruning to normal was. Anyone?? :confused:
Posted by: grabeez
quote:
Originally posted by suzyq
Yeah, I wondered if the other characters, who apparently died at the end of the episode could somehow be substituted for Lodz. I guess we'll have to wait (keep our fingers crossed that the show will return) and see.
I don't have a clue what the significance of Lodz's eyes retruning to normal was. Anyone?? :confused:
My impression was that he returned Lodz's sight so that Ben could see it in his eyes that he was lying to Ben.
Posted by: JTAnderson
quote:
Originally posted by Big_Daddy
It depends on how much Management wants/needs Lodz around, and can Management "redirect" Ben's power? For example, potentially 3 other characters died in this episode - not at Ben's hand, but they still may be dead. Could one of them pay the price for Ruthie's return? And I'm not sure of the significance of Lodz's eyes returning to normal after Ben choked him.
At the end of the scene where Lodz and Management were alone, and Lodz had let on about killing Ruthie, Management said something to the effect of job well done, I have a reward for you. (I don't recall the exact words at all.) I guessed that the reward was returning Lodz' eyesight.
In the end, it seemed pretty clear that Management had no further use for Lodz. I'll be incredibly surprised if Lodz is alive at the beginning of next season.
Posted by: suzyq
quote:
Originally posted by grabeez
My impression was that he returned Lodz's sight so that Ben could see it in his eyes that he was lying to Ben.
Sorry, let me clarify. I'm not sure why they returned to normal, meaning cloudy, after Ben apparently killed him. I agree that Management returned his sight so that Ben could see into his eyes, but why after Lodz died, did he "go blind" again?
Posted by: Crimsonblake
Maybe Sofie is to be the mother of the Anti-christ?
Posted by: drew2k
Here's what Management told Ben: in order for Ruthie to live, Ben must take another life.
Here's what we saw at the end of the show: Ben apparently chokes Lodz to death, and in her trailer, Ruthie comes gasping to life a short time later.
However, Ben was not touching Ruthie, he had last touched her over a day ago. What if Management lied to Ben and just didn't let Ben know that it takes longer to revive the dead? We still don't know if Management is good or evil, so why should we trust Management? Possibly in support of this, when Ben tried to take his own life, all Scudder said was "That's not how it works. You have a great gift." He didn't say a life was required to revive Ruthie.
I could easily see Management trying to coerce Ben into taking another life, if for no other reason than to let Ben experience it and maybe enjoy the thrill of power that goes with it, so that maybe Ben would do it again and it would be easier the next time.
As far as whether or not Carnivale will be back, I get daily downloads from AvantGo to my PDA, and a TV-Guide article I received said a renewal notice was "thisclose", and Season 2 would kick off in early 2005. I can't find it on TVGuide.com, but that's a LONG time to wait for resolution!
Posted by: mp2526
quote:
Originally posted by drew2k
Here's what we Management told Ben: in order for Ruthie to live, Ben must take another life. Here's what we saw at the end of the show: Ben apparently chokes Lodz to death, and in her trailer, Ruthie comes gasping to life a short time later. However, Ben was not touching Ruthie, he had last touched her over a day ago. What if Management lied to Ben and just didn't let Ben know that it takes longer to revive the dead? When Ben tried to take his own life, all Scudder said was "That's not how it works. You have a great gift." He didn't say a life was required to revive Ruthie.
If you remember though, the older lady he visited during the "Religious Healing Show" the carnivale folks put on, told him something to the effect that to save a life he would have to take a life.
Posted by: zaknafein
Also of note, there didn't appear to be any repercussions from Scudder healing Ben.
Posted by: drew2k
Mike, I forgot about her. I think she was Scudder's sweetheart (and definitely the Sheiff's aunt). You're right - the reason she didn't want Ben to save her was because it would have taken someone else's life.
Damn. I wanted for Ben to have the "gift" without having to to make that choice!
Posted by: LooseWiring
She did, but she never said anything about it being HUMAN life. That is why he took her out to the middle of nowhere to heal her; To let some coyote or racoon or grass or something take the hit.
Posted by: Rob Helmerichs
quote:
Originally posted by zaknafein
Also of note, there didn't appear to be any repercussions from Scudder healing Ben.
...although Scudder wasn't actually there. Is he still alive? If so, perhaps wherever he was, somebody died.
Posted by: lordargent
quote:
However, Ben was not touching Ruthie, he had last touched her over a day ago.
This is too much speculation. The final scene just shows her face against darkness, we don't know that ben wasn't right next to her. We didn't see her surroundings.
I'm wondering if he stores life energy up like a battery, or if it's some long spoken law that the life/death cycle must maintain the balance.
Right now, I place him somewhere between a defiler and a necromancer.
Posted by: Vesper
Just watched this tonight...
While it was well acted, and had some surprises, I'm rather annoyed that I'm pretty much in the same spot I was in when the show started. Practically nothing has been answered. The onslaught of questions gets tiring after awhile. I was REALLY hoping they'd resolve at least... SOMETHING.
Posted by: cptodd
2005? I CAN'T WAIT THAT LONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: skanter
quote:
Originally posted by suzyq
Sorry, let me clarify. I'm not sure why they returned to normal, meaning cloudy, after Ben apparently killed him. I agree that Management returned his sight so that Ben could see into his eyes, but why after Lodz died, did he "go blind" again?
That always happens...
:p
Posted by: skanter
The finale was fascinating but frustrating, as NOTHING was resolved!
It seems like the writers were winging it and don't have any idea what will happen themselves. They could have given us a bit more resolution during the long wait until season two.
Fun show!
Posted by: Steveknj
My take on it is that they left so many things unresolved so that the public will demand they come back for season 2. To me, the biggest issue that was NOT resolved is the connection between Ben and Justin. It would seem that the two parallel stories will have to meet somewhere otherwise the Justin arc makes no sense in a show called Carnivale. I think that is what the main focus of a season 2 will be.
Does anyone know how the ratings were for this show? I'm not a huge believer in ratings anyway, especially for a cable station, but I wonder how it compares to Sex In the City, or the Sopranos or any of the other shows in that time slot.
Posted by: Rob Helmerichs
I had the opposite reaction as Skanter--I thought there was constant movement throughout the season, as more and more of the puzzle was revealed. Yes, they haven't actually shown much of the solution, but we know a LOT more now than at the beginning about what the mystery is.
I wonder if their plan hasn't been to spend the first season asking the questions, and the second giving the answers...
And there is not a single shred of doubt in my mind that the writers arew NOT winging it. There has been a very clear and consistent movement all season; I can't tell exactly where it's going, but it's obvious to me that it's going somewhere. And I love that in this soundbite world there's a show that's willing not to lay it all out every hour, but rather has the patience to allow things to unfold at a more natural pace.
Posted by: ClutchBrake
quote:
Originally posted by Medieval Guy
And there is not a single shred of doubt in my mind that the writers arew NOT winging it. There has been a very clear and consistent movement all season; I can't tell exactly where it's going, but it's obvious to me that it's going somewhere. And I love that in this soundbite world there's a show that's willing not to lay it all out every hour, but rather has the patience to allow things to unfold at a more natural pace.
The Wire, anyone? :up:
Posted by: jbondsr
When Scutter healed Ben's cut throat, he wrote TAVTAR, then crossed out the "T" to get the word AVATAR. Which I think means Ben is Scutter's creation.
Posted by: LooseWiring
quote:
Originally posted by jbondsr
When Scutter healed Ben's cut throat, he wrote TAVTAR, then crossed out the "T" to get the word AVATAR. Which I think means Ben is Scutter's creation.
The word you are thinking of is Golem, not Avatar. Golem are created beings.
The word Avatar, which is what Ben is, means that he is the physical embodiment of a deity. Jesus could be said to have been an Avatar of God.
My impression of the story is that in the ongoing battle of Good Vs. Evil both Good and Evil have their agents along with their own avatar's(Think Christ/Anti-Christ).
Each generation(or each 50 years or each 100years, etc.) a new avatar from each side is born. This time the avatars are Brother Justin and Ben Hawkins. I believe Scudder and the German were the previous avatar's.
I have no idea where the tattooed man fits in.
Posted by: skanter
quote:
Originally posted by Medieval Guy
And there is not a single shred of doubt in my mind that the writers arew NOT winging it. There has been a very clear and consistent movement all season; I can't tell exactly where it's going, but it's obvious to me that it's going somewhere. And I love that in this soundbite world there's a show that's willing not to lay it all out every hour, but rather has the patience to allow things to unfold at a more natural pace.
You may be right. It just seemed to me, that, if the story were already written, they would have given us a bit more of it at the end of season one.
I cannot say I know the psychology of cable network writers, and perhaps they are trying to string us on. For me, it's all a bit too vague...but I will still be watching for season two.
Posted by: Rob Helmerichs
"Avatar" could just mean the physical embodiment of an abstract concept...and in Christian theology, evil isn't diety.
I also still don't think that Justin and Ben are necessarily on one side or the other--they are both free to choose what path they take, and the real players of the game (of whom Management may be one, or simply an agent of one) are trying to influence them.
Posted by: skanter
quote:
Originally posted by Medieval Guy
"Avatar" could just mean the physical embodiment of an abstract concept...and in Christian theology, evil isn't diety.
av·a·tar (ăv'ə-tär')
n.
1. The incarnation of a Hindu deity, especially Vishnu, in human or animal form.
2. An embodiment, as of a quality or concept; an archetype: the very avatar of cunning.
3. A temporary manifestation or aspect of a continuing entity: occultism in its present avatar.
[Sanskrit avatāraḥ, descent (of a deity from heaven), avatar : ava, down + tarati, he crosses.]
Posted by: Rob Helmerichs
Uh, yeah, that was kinda my point... :confused:
Posted by: drew2k
The way this show is set up, it's obvious that Justin and Ben will eventually meet. However, everyone has always assumed these two are antagonists, but what if when they meet, Justin and Ben will actually team up on the same side in a showdown against either Management or some other unknown force? In the HBO chat, both Clancy and Nick said it's not clear yet who is evil (obviously :D), and Management really only became a central figure in the season finale. We know this was originally envisioned as a single-season work, and they had to re-develop the story to extend it into a series. Wouldn't it be a huge twist to team these two up to fight together instead of against each other? I think I could root for that ... especially if Iris turns out to be evil and Justin has to combat Iris. (I really, really don't like Iris.)
Posted by: lordargent
quote:
they had to re-develop the story to extend it into a series
Although I could point out the filler parts of certain episodes, their filling is much better than the fillers of other shows. Since their "filler" is good character development.
Posted by: FatherTed
quote:
Originally posted by Steveknj
Does anyone know how the ratings were for this show? I'm not a huge believer in ratings anyway, especially for a cable station, but I wonder how it compares to Sex In the City, or the Sopranos or any of the other shows in that time slot.
I tracked down ratings for cable networks for November 17-23 and Carnivale rated #8. I'd say that's pretty good.
This was a Top 15 listing and Sex in the City didn't even show. They're currently running new shows aren't they?
Posted by: ronbo
quote:
Originally posted by FatherTed
I tracked down ratings for cable networks for November 17-23 and Carnivale rated #8. I'd say that's pretty good.
This was a Top 15 listing and Sex in the City didn't even show. They're currently running new shows aren't they?
I thought I saw an ad that the last of the new SITC episodes start in January.
Posted by: Skittles
quote:
Originally posted by ronbo
I thought I saw an ad that the last of the new SITC episodes start in January.
That's correct. SITC is in reruns now, and the final 6 or 7 episodes begin airing in January
Posted by: KRS
Brother Justin and Iris' relationship is odder than that of Jack and Meg White (White Stripes). Are they brother and sister, husband and wife, exes, or what?
(I know that they are supposed to be siblings, but there are certainly some undercurrents there!)
Posted by: cptodd
Undercurrents? That is too generous!
Posted by: gregmdusa
I thought the line from Scudder was,
"It doesn't work that way, you have to make a choice"
I felt sure this was the telling bit of information that pushed Ben to make a choice.
Another question, who was Ben supposed to have killed (before Lodz)?
Posted by: dswallow
quote:
Originally posted by gregmdusa
Another question, who was Ben supposed to have killed (before Lodz)?
He was trying for the drunk/bum in the town bar and couldn't bring himself to do it.
Posted by: mp2526
quote:
Originally posted by gregmdusa
I thought the line from Scudder was,
"It doesn't work that way, you have to make a choice"
I felt sure this was the telling bit of information that pushed Ben to make a choice.
Another question, who was Ben supposed to have killed (before Lodz)?
He didn't make a choice. I think he was just going to let her die.
Posted by: cptodd
quote:
Originally posted by mp2526
He didn't make a choice. I think he was just going to let her die.
He was until that crafty management stepped in. The dirty rat.
OK so what do you think Sophie's mom said to Lodz to make him go crazy and cause the Thunder?
And that Sophie can get her some revenge can't she?
Posted by: LooseWiring
Ben DID make a choice. The choice was that he wasn't going to kill someone else just to bring Ruthie back.
That's why management goaded him into killing Lodz.
What caused Sophie's mom and Lodz to become so upset we will probably never know unless one of the 3 of them survived.
Posted by: mp2526
quote:
Originally posted by LooseWiring
Ben DID make a choice. The choice was that he wasn't going to kill someone else just to bring Ruthie back.
That's why management goaded him into killing Lodz.
What caused Sophie's mom and Lodz to become so upset we will probably never know unless one of the 3 of them survived.
OK, technically he Chose not to choose someone to kill
Posted by: JTAnderson
quote:
Originally posted by dswallow
He was trying for the drunk/bum in the town bar and couldn't bring himself to do it.
I'm guessing that gregmdusa was asking who Ben had killed, resulting in Ben becoming a fugitive. If that question was ever answered, I missed it.
Posted by: mp2526
quote:
Originally posted by JTAnderson
I'm guessing that gregmdusa was asking who Ben had killed, resulting in Ben becoming a fugitive. If that question was ever answered, I missed it.
It wasn't answered
Posted by: dswallow
quote:
Originally posted by mp2526
It wasn't answered
It wasn't directly answered but the implication I got from Ben's behavior is that he knew exactly how to "work the gift"... how to take a life and give it to someone else. So we don't necessarily know exactly who he had killed before, but we know how, and generally why.
Posted by: Rob Helmerichs
quote:
Originally posted by dswallow
It wasn't directly answered but the implication I got from Ben's behavior is that he knew exactly how to "work the gift"... how to take a life and give it to someone else. So we don't necessarily know exactly who he had killed before, but we know how, and generally why.
I think just the opposite--otherwise, he never would have thought going out into the middle of nowhere with Adrienne Barbeau would have worked.
And he's wanted for murder; it would be difficult to accuse him of murder if his "victim" clearly died of natural causes...
Posted by: justapixel
Add me as one of those disappointed with the series ending. I'd suspected it wasn't going to wrap anything up a couple weeks ago, and I was right.
I love the show, especially the look of it, but I think they should have moved the plotline along at least a LITTLE. If they don't, it'll end up being another twin peaks - all weirdness and no substance.
I won't remember any of this in 2005.
Posted by: mp2526
quote:
Originally posted by justapixel
I won't remember any of this in 2005.
Which is why they will run the series again before the second season premiers, plus they'll hope you might buy the DVD to refresh your memory.
Posted by: markb
quote:
Originally posted by Medieval Guy
I think just the opposite--otherwise, he never would have thought going out into the middle of nowhere with Adrienne Barbeau would have worked.
I agree with you here. He also never would have gone to Lodz for help if he already knew what he had to do.
quote:
And he's wanted for murder; it would be difficult to accuse him of murder if his "victim" clearly died of natural causes...
:confused: It seems that in order to resurrect someone, he needs to murder someone else. Lodz did not die of natural causes. He was strangled.
Posted by: dswallow
quote:
Originally posted by markb
I agree with you here. He also never would have gone to Lodz for help if he already knew what he had to do.
I can see that as a hole in my theory. But Ben may not have known that was why something he did before had worked until after he'd been told by management... like it making more sense after hearing that, and realizing what happened in the past and how events were connected.
Posted by: JoeTiVo
quote:
Originally posted by mp2526
OK, technically he Chose not to choose someone to kill
Or, as Neil Pert would say, "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice."
(Well, actually Neil would 'write' it and Geddy would 'say' it.) :)
Posted by: LooseWiring
quote:
Originally posted by JoeTiVo
Or, as Neil Pert would say, "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice."
(Well, actually Neil would 'write' it and Geddy would 'say' it.) :)
Yes, he would say it in a loud screechy voice while Neil Peart banged away at his two-hundred piece monstrosity of a drum-kit.
Posted by: Smiles
Hmm ... Rush ... Russian soldier ... You people may be on to something. ;)
Posted by: geektron
I don't have time to read all the responses, so I am sorry if this has been said.
I thought maybe Appelonia told Lodz her plans to kill Sofie. I originally considered she mentioned Ben sacrificing his bearded lady, but I doubt he would have cared.
Great episode and great season. I can't wait until next season. Now I need some SFU to hold me over. :)
Posted by: warpath
I loved the Carnivale, but was left feeling a bit imcomplete with the finale. In fact, I was *sure* I must have miscounted the number of episodes and that the season finale was going to be NEXT week after watching the actual finale.
It's been said before, but I'm afraid this will end up being too much like Twin Peaks - Weird, but with no point.
I thought the finale did a great job of revealing what the possible conflicts could be without ever leading to ANY resolution.
Still, I'm a BIG fan of the series and will try to wait patiently for Season 2.
Posted by: Big_Daddy
quote:
Originally posted by warpath
I loved the Carnivale, but was left feeling a bit imcomplete with the finale. In fact, I was *sure* I must have miscounted the number of episodes and that the season finale was going to be NEXT week after watching the actual finale.
It's been said before, but I'm afraid this will end up being too much like Twin Peaks - Weird, but with no point.
I thought the finale did a great job of revealing what the possible conflicts could be without ever leading to ANY resolution.
Still, I'm a BIG fan of the series and will try to wait patiently for Season 2.
I loved these 12 episodes. As a few others have commented, this was one of the few season finales in recent memory (5-6 years or so) that had me on the edge of my seat. Ironically, the other recent show that could do that was the cancelled-now-resurrected Farscape.
Anyway, my concern is that the momentum that's built up will dissipate in the 1 1/2 years we have to wait until some sort of answer. Despite all the naysayers, we did get some more information about what's been going on - but there are plenty more questions. I hope I still care in 2005.
And I probably will get the DVD.
Posted by: RMBittner
quote:
Originally posted by Medieval Guy
Perhaps Management only let Lodz back into the trailer to set him up...
I hope I'm not the only one who would swear that the voice of Management is an uncredited Linda Hunt.
Bob
Posted by: mp2526
quote:
Originally posted by RMBittner
I hope I'm not the only one who would swear that the voice of Management is an uncredited Linda Hunt.
Bob
If you read this thread, you will find out you are not
Posted by: ClutchBrake
quote:
Originally posted by warpath
In fact, I was *sure* I must have miscounted the number of episodes and that the season finale was going to be NEXT week after watching the actual finale.
You're not alone. I thought the same thing. I was a bit thrown off though because I was without DTV for a week.
Posted by: spartanstew
Finally watched this tonight (and the previous week as well). Best finale I've seen in a long time. I've really enjoyed this show, but was starting to get a little annoyed with the fact that it didn't seem to be going anywhere. If the finale would have been disappointing, I probably would not have watched a season 2 (if there is one). I'll certainly be tuning in now.
Stew
Posted by: FatherTed
Well, it looks like we're obviously polarized. There are people who really liked the finale and people who were exceptionally annoyed by it or the lack of answers.
Posted by: drew2k
HBO needs to pick up this series for a second season and end this polarizing!
See Doug's message here for something to maybe nudge HBO along ... http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-v...threadid=147317
Posted by: warpath
I think part of my frustration with the season finale is that HBO has not *officially* re-newed the series. Basically, I feel like I'm left hanging and I don't know if there will EVER be any resolution.
I'd feel better about the finale (After all, there was a lot of info revealed, just no conclusions to anything) if I *knew* there was a second season in the works.
Posted by: Frylock
Then take the survey and post how you dislike not knowing there will be a second season. I did. it should send a strong message.
Posted by: DLiquid
quote:
Originally posted by Medieval Guy
I had the opposite reaction as Skanter--I thought there was constant movement throughout the season, as more and more of the puzzle was revealed. Yes, they haven't actually shown much of the solution, but we know a LOT more now than at the beginning about what the mystery is.
I totally agree. With every episode, I learned more. With the finale, it felt like I learned a lot more than any other single episode of the season. That's good enough for me, I don't need everything to be resolved, where's the fun in that?
For those comparing this to some of David Lynch's works, I think that Lynch is far more abstract than this. While Carnivale is a weird mystery, it's not nearly as bizarre or hard to piece together as most of Lynch's stuff.
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