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ER 2/26/04 Spoilers!
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Posted by: cptodd

Who knew Frank had a heart???

Posted by: YCantAngieRead

I thought that was an interesting plot twist, and very consistent with a lot of veterans I know. In fact, Frank could TOTALLY have been my grandfather. That part made me very sad because it just reminded me that even though my grandfather could be a biggot, he loved his three grandkids like no one else.

Posted by: TivoGeezer

quote:
Originally posted by cptodd
Who knew Frank had a heart???

Who knew he even had a family?

Posted by: Rcrew

Well, I think this episode definitely answers an old question I had about Frank's original appearance on the show!

Posted by: cptodd

quote:
Originally posted by YCantAngieRead
I thought that was an interesting plot twist, and very consistent with a lot of veterans I know. In fact, Frank could TOTALLY have been my grandfather. That part made me very sad because it just reminded me that even though my grandfather could be a biggot, he loved his three grandkids like no one else.

But is he a bigot? Perhaps the "big black lesbians" support group might think so do you think that they might have been setting him up to not be a bigot with that whole performance in the cath lab with Pratt not to mention the thing between his wife and Neela. And if they are setting him up not to be a bigot after all then what the hell is he?

Posted by: Snappa77

Yes he is a bigot. But he is not a racist. Think Archie Bunker.

People seem to think that bigots are automatically racist.

Pratts comment when Frank was telling him about his black army buddies:

"Some of my friends......"

Meaning alot of ppl say the phrase/excuse "some of my best friends are black/gay/jewish/middleeastern".

Frank is VERY non-P.C. but he is not spiteful or hateful. The writers did a good job in this episode to show that side of Frank without Frank himself do a 180. Using the wife and kid was smart.

He was a cop, in the service, a husband. a father and a Bigot.

Posted by: Rob Helmerichs

Racists are a subset of bigots. Somebody who is bigoted about race is a racist; somebody who is bigoted about (e.g.) religion is not (necessarily).

Posted by: swizzlest

I had quite a good discussion with my girlfriend this evening about this episode. Our question was about the guy in a coma/vegetative state and his 19-year old redhead daughter.

It's revealed that the father molested his daughter toward the end of the episode. My gf felt that the daughter had some sort of oedipal attraction toward the father and that's why she was so interested in keeping him alive at all costs.

I started to feel that the daughter might have SOME feelings like that, but she wanted to keep her father alive because he was in so much pain and his life was miserable, etc. Basically, as a revenge for what he did to her.

I guess I thought that since she wanted her dad shocked again and again and she kept asking if he was in pain and whatnot.

Opinions? Comments? Llamas?

Posted by: Rcrew

For a while I wondered if he had some kind of pension or SS benefits she wanted to keep receiving. After hearing about the incest, I switched immediately to retribution.

Posted by: BelugaWhale

Or maybe just a very confused 19 year old.

I can't even imagine how I would have dealt with that situation at the age of 19, and I wasn't molested. In her situation, it would be absolute emotional torture, I'd imagine.

Posted by: dthmj

I thought the same thing as Rcrew.... that there must be some sort of disability or some sort she was getting and wanting him to stay alive... but then when the molestation was revealed, I switched to revenge - especially in light of how badly his wound was infected under her care when she brought him in finaly.

Posted by: TeeSee

I have a hard time thinking retribution. She seemed frightened, not angry.

Posted by: kimsan

Another vote for revenge. She did ask the docs if they thought people got what they deserved.

Posted by: mitchb2

Can anyone tell me what I missed in terms of ongoing plot points?
My son "accidentally" deleted the episode. Grrrr.

Posted by: Maui

Ongoing plot points were not the big in this episode in my opinion. Frank had a heart attack which may be a bit of an ongoing plot point but it may just turn out to be something that get mentioned from time to time.

The only other running plot line was Luka and Sam. Luka was with another woman (surprise), Sam got mad, Luka apoligized at the end of the episode, Sam accepted the apology by inviting Luka in to watch videos with her and her son.

Posted by: firerose818

quote:
Originally posted by Maui
Ongoing plot points were not the big in this episode in my opinion. Frank had a heart attack which may be a bit of an ongoing plot point but it may just turn out to be something that get mentioned from time to time.

The only other running plot line was Luka and Sam. Luka was with another woman (surprise), Sam got mad, Luka apoligized at the end of the episode, Sam accepted the apology by inviting Luka in to watch videos with her and her son.

The "other woman" was Jillian from Africa. She seems to show up from time to time.

-Rose

Posted by: Rcrew

As for the revenge theory, remember when he came in his 'tube' was pulled out, causing the infection. I don't remember what it was called or what it was for.

So, who pulled the tube out?

Posted by: dmaneyapanda

pulling the tube out didn't cause the infection. the tube and its insertion point was the CAUSE of the infection, which he already had, which is why he was brought in to the ER in "sepsis", which basically means a body overcome by infection.

the daughter said she didn't want to pay to have someone else keep the tube clean, so she did it herself, "just like they showed her."

imo, it's clear in the final scene that she has been purposefully causing the father prolonged pain and agony in retribution. "do you think people get what they deserve?" it couldn't be any clearer!

Posted by: loubob57

Anybody remember where they got the whole guy stealing a tank story?

The real incident happened in or near San Diego in 1995. It ended just about the way they showed. The cops got on top of the tank and ended up shooting the guy from above. Unlike ER the real tank thief didn't make it.

Posted by: LlamaLarry

quote:
Originally posted by swizzlest
:::snip:::Opinions? Comments? Llamas?

I think she wanted him alive to punish him for what he did to her, maybe she hopes that he is at least partially aware of his condition (as indicated by his desire to remove his tube) but unable to control it. I imagine this reversal in the power would be pretty compelling.

Llamas? I have 10, want one?

Posted by: Rcrew

quote:
Originally posted by dmaneyapanda
pulling the tube out didn't cause the infection. the tube and its insertion point was the CAUSE of the infection,

I don't recall hearing what the tube was intended to drain. I don't see how the 'insertion' point was the CAUSE of the infection. Perhaps failure to clean it appropriately CAUSED the infection.

But pulling it out must have caused additional distress and pain, and infectious issues.

Having had a tube simply inserted into one of my kidneys for just over a week, I know it's not that difficult to keep clean. Pulling it out slightly however would have been quite problematic.

Posted by: kimsan

quote:
Originally posted by Rcrew
I don't recall hearing what the tube was intended to drain. I don't see how the 'insertion' point was the CAUSE of the infection. Perhaps failure to clean it appropriately CAUSED the infection.

IT was a PIC (spelling?) tube. They're used for feeding and meds in patients with difficulty taking things by mouth. They're typically used on semi-vegetative, dementia, and brain injured patients with swallow problems. Patients often try to remove them for reasons of site irritation or because (when coherent) they would prefer to refuse food and be allowed to die rather than maintain their current standard of living.

Could have been dad trying to remove the tube or daughter not properly cleaning the site that led to infection and sepsis. Or both.

We chose NOT to inflict one on my dad prior to his entry in a nursing home.

Posted by: jeff125va

I think the daughter was definitely keeping him alive BECAUSE he was in pain.

I don't even know if Frank is as bigoted (as the terms seem to be defined here) as he seems, and certainly not racist. I've always thought that maybe he makes the remarks he does as sort of a mechanism to sort of keep a distance between himself and others. We learned from his wife that he truly admires and respects his co-workers; and he's obviously a much different person with his wife and daughter than we've gotten to see of him.

Posted by: dmaneyapanda

quote:
Originally posted by Rcrew
I don't recall hearing what the tube was intended to drain. I don't see how the 'insertion' point was the CAUSE of the infection. Perhaps failure to clean it appropriately CAUSED the infection.

Sorry, that's what I meant. The daughter said she was keeping it clean "just like they showed her", but IMO it was supposed to be clear from the shot of the site (read: discoloration and pus-like substance at the point where the tube enters the skin) that the site was a festering wound. And, as mentioned, he was brought in in sepsis.

In any case, the infection was there long before he arrived at the ER, and neither the docs nor the germs in the hospital caused it.

Posted by: drew2k

I'm still not sure about Frank. Is he a bigot or just posturing? If you think of the "traditional" TV bigot, you have to think of Archie Bunker. Archie had his opinions and made it known what he thought of other races, religions, and lifestyles, and definitely was not comfortable around those he disagreed with. In the past, Frank has said many disparaging things but obviously had affection for the black soldiers he served with in Vietnam and obviously loves his daughter who has special needs. He works side by side with gays, blacks, etc., but mostly passes only gruff snide comments. I just wish now that I had paid more attention to Frank, because I just don't know what he is ...

quote:
bigot

1. One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

2. A prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from his own

3. A person who regards his own faith and views in matters of religion as unquestionably right, and any belief or opinion opposed to or differing from them as unreasonable or wicked. In an extended sense, a person who is intolerant of opinions which conflict with his own, as in politics or morals; one obstinately and blindly devoted to his own church, party, belief, or opinion.

All these definitions use "intolerant" as a key point of being bigoted, and has Frank been intolerant? To be a bigot, do you have to be intolerant always, or is it enough to just display intolerance once? :confused:

Posted by: JYoung

This episode was no where near the shark jumper that I had feared, based on the previews.

I thought that the bit about Frank was interesting as was the daughter.

However, why should have Luka apologized to Sam?
She was the one who said that they weren't exclusive and needed a break, so why was Luka at fault?

Or is there just some female logic that I'm missing?

(ducks for cover)

Posted by: Rob Helmerichs

I think maybe Luka is so used to being in the wrong (and let's face it, most of the time he is) that when he is accused of being wrong, he automatically assumes it's true. :D

Posted by: YCantAngieRead

quote:
However, why should have Luka apologized to Sam?
She was the one who said that they weren't exclusive and needed a break, so why was Luka at fault?

Yeah, it was her fault, really, although that's not to say if it were a real situation and I was in her shoes I wouldn't be ticked off. :) I think what that whole thing was supposed to tell us is that Luka's serious about this one, otherwise he never would have apologized (and hasn't in the past.)

Posted by: cptodd

quote:
Originally posted by YCantAngieRead
Yeah, it was her fault, really, although that's not to say if it were a real situation and I was in her shoes I wouldn't be ticked off. :) I think what that whole thing was supposed to tell us is that Luka's serious about this one, otherwise he never would have apologized (and hasn't in the past.)

But if she was going to be ticked off she should have been ticked off at herself don't you think? She definitely muddled the waters after Luka was maneuvering in for the relationship kill. Perhaps she was nervous (we don't really know her back-story but we do have clues that she has had her problems) due to the fact that he was sending out the "serious relationship signals." But that is not Luka's fault.

This whole Frank thing is interesting. Are we now to believe that Frank is a good guy (this statement sort of implies that he is not a good guy dosen't it) after having said some really questionable things in the past? He has also acted on some of those spurious believes as well. I remember a couple of times when he called the police/social services on folks after he was told not to by someone on staff (one time it was the big boss herself). Also, if he were simply trying to enforce a certain distance between himself and others on staff why single out the lesbians and the foreigners and the blacks and the gays and the . . . . I don't think I have EVER heard him say one disparaging thing about any normative white person in that ER. If he wanted distance why not distance from those people? Also, who the hell want's to hear his uninformed opinions when they are doing their jobs? I can see if they asked but he makes a point of inserting his vitriol whenever he pleases. This whole thing does not make sense to me.

Posted by: JPinAZ

quote:
Originally posted by cptodd
Are we now to believe that Frank is a good guy (this statement sort of implies that he is not a good guy dosen't it) after having said some really questionable things in the past?

Of course, this is network television, after all. What other kind of family would a bigoted loudmouth have?

Posted by: DougF

Was anyone else out there waiting for Luka to scream "WE WERE ON A BREAK!"? :)

Posted by: mcdougll

Um, not to go back in the conversation (well, actually, I am), but, what exactly was said that makes people think the daughter was molested? I must have missed that completely.
I got the impression the daughter was just rather incompetent at taking care of him, and was so distraught she didn't understand her father's heart started beating again (when she said to shock him again).

Posted by: Rcrew

quote:
Originally posted by mcdougll
but, what exactly was said that makes people think the daughter was molested? I must have missed that completely.

I don't have direct quotes, but she talked about having to get home from school, bathing and leaving her hair wet "he liked my hair wet".

It was pretty clear to me, and seems like many others here, that he was molesting her.

Posted by: drew2k

She also made it clear that her mother was never home at that time of day, and I believe she had to wait in her room.

Posted by: JYoung

quote:
Originally posted by Frozen Solid
Was anyone else out there waiting for Luka to scream "WE WERE ON A BREAK!"? :)

Bingo! That's what I was thinking when I typed up my last post. ;)

Posted by: jeff125va

quote:
Originally posted by Frozen Solid
Was anyone else out there waiting for Luka to scream "WE WERE ON A BREAK!"? :)

Yes, I meant to post something about this the next day but got sidetracked by the other discussions. Not that I really thought he'd say that, but it crossed my mind. In this case (unlike the Friends reference) she even knew who the other woman was, not like Luka went out and jumped in the sack with some bimbo he met at a bar. Obviously his history is relevant emotionally, but she had no right to expect an apology from him after she had said she didn't think they were exclusive.

He had obviously bailed early on his date with the other chick. I can see her being emotional enough to react the way she did, but she should at least have acknowledged she was at fault. Glad she invited him in though.

Posted by: jeff125va

quote:
Originally posted by Rcrew
I don't have direct quotes, but she talked about having to get home from school, bathing and leaving her hair wet "he liked my hair wet".

It was pretty clear to me, and seems like many others here, that he was molesting her.

Yeah, there was no doubt what was being implied. Wish I could remember other quotes but there was absolutely no question about it.

Posted by: tgr131

quote:
Originally posted by Frozen Solid
Was anyone else out there waiting for Luka to scream "WE WERE ON A BREAK!"? :)

I was thinking the same exact thing! My wife and I had that conversation. I think this subplot was just a recycled friends script, w/o the laugh track.

Ross/Luka = the moody, whiny, brooding guy that screws up.
Rachel/Sam = the self righteous girl w/ a chip on her shoulder.

Don't think too hard, or the analogy breaks down. :)