TiVo Community Forums Archives

TiVoCommunity.com
(c)opyright 1995-2005 All rights reserved
indexcheckTC
This area is a static history of posts in the TiVo Community Forum Archive.
This archive history was made for the simple indexing of search sites like Google.

Pages:1

Humax TiVo photo
(Click here to view the original thread with full colors/images)

Posted by: ccwf

I don't recall having seen a photo of the Humax TiVo, yet, so below is one from an impress Watch CES article I found off TiVo's Japanese web site. Click the photo to see a much larger version.

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20040110/ces80339.gif
HUMAX製「TiVo DVR」

Posted by: Dennis Wilkinson

Humax's U.S. website also has some pictures of both the TiVo and the DVD-Recorder/TiVo combo:

<http://www.humaxusa.com/>

Posted by: ZeoTiVo

I don't know much about HUMAX offerings,

what makes them different from what is offered now ?

Posted by: tomo_kun

quote:
Originally posted by ZeoTiVo
I don't know much about HUMAX offerings,

what makes them different from what is offered now ?

Its sexier and a 160(?) GB hd!

Posted by: cptodd

quote:
Originally posted by tomo_kun
Its sexier and a 160(?) GB hd!

Is size EVERYTHING? ;)

Seriously, the series 2 recorder looks quite good!!

Posted by: Dennis Wilkinson

Not much detail, as they aren't available yet. They are supposed to have a large capacity standalone and a DVD recorder hybrid unit. I think the expectation is that they'll be less expensive than the Pioneer options, being a Korean manufacturer.

They are also planning on selling a TV with some trick-play-like features, but they don't talk about it as using TiVo technologies.

People have been speculating that they could be the first to release an OpenCable TiVo, as they've apparently been working on OpenCable tuners and have shipping DVB (both satellite and terrestrial) receivers for sale overseas, but they've made no announcement to that effect.

Posted by: DCIFRTHS

I really like the stand alone model. Unfortunately, I won't buy it because it's silver. I hope they have a model in BLACK too.

The DVD recorder is not as nice as the stand alone, but it's good to see more people getting in the game.

Posted by: dmdeane

I realize this is a vain hope, but it would be nice if the Humax TiVos had builtin Ethernet ports.

I know at least three people I've been hyping TiVo to for years, and they have all gone and bought Replays instead, precisely because Replay has the Ethernet port and TiVo does not.

Being network friendly and working out of the box without having to buy an extra dongle or download extra drivers or update software versions is a big plus with a lot of people who have home networks.

Posted by: DCIFRTHS

Good point dmdeane. It would be GREAT to have Ethernet on board.

Posted by: bsnelson

Ethernet? No way. USB 2.0 is definitely the way to go, and I'm sorry, I don't buy the "dongle is too much trouble" thing. I'm running USB 2.0 Ethernet adapters on my three Series 2 DTivos and they work great.

Brad

Posted by: DCIFRTHS

quote:
Originally posted by bsnelson
Ethernet? No way. USB 2.0 is definitely the way to go, and I'm sorry, I don't buy the "dongle is too much trouble" thing. I'm running USB 2.0 Ethernet adapters on my three Series 2 DTivos and they work great.

Brad

This has been debated to death, and everyone is entitled to their opinion. I agree with Brad on many things, but on this one I have to disagree.

A dedicated Ethernet port is the way to go. This will free up the USB port(s)for any add-ons that may come our way. Still holding my breath...

A dedicated Ethernet port frees us up from the mind-numbingly slow software releases from TiVo. Where's the USB 2.0 drivers?

Dongles are too much trouble. They require extra space behind the unit, they cost extra $$$, and we're pretty much tied into the chip sets that TiVo decides to support.

There's just no good reason not to include it.

Posted by: LoadStar

quote:
Originally posted by bsnelson
Ethernet? No way. USB 2.0 is definitely the way to go, and I'm sorry, I don't buy the "dongle is too much trouble" thing. I'm running USB 2.0 Ethernet adapters on my three Series 2 DTivos and they work great.

Brad

No one is saying that they can't still have USB ports... just add a built-in ethernet port.

Posted by: dmdeane

quote:
Originally posted by bsnelson
Ethernet? No way. USB 2.0 is definitely the way to go, and I'm sorry, I don't buy the "dongle is too much trouble" thing. I'm running USB 2.0 Ethernet adapters on my three Series 2 DTivos and they work great.

Brad

Tell that to all the people I know who bought ReplayTV instead of TiVo, even after I had explained why TiVo was superior, precisely because of the reasons that you dismiss, and for other reasons you chose to ignore.

Go read a lot of web reviews of TiVo where slowness of the initial setup over phone lines, and difficulty setting up networking, were the number one reasons why the reviewers recommended Replay or some other DVR or DVR/DVD-player/recorder, precisely because TiVo didn't think to make this a "no brainer" by simply adding an Ethernet port.

This is one instance where I can point to and show precisely how TiVo has lost potential sales and potential new subscribers. It simply isn't a debateable question anymore.

Add the d_mned Ethernet ports already. This has nothing to do with an "either/or" argument pitting Ethernet against USB. That's a red herring argument and always has been.

Posted by: dmdeane

Let me try to explain the problem in terms that get us past this silly "Ethernet vs. USB" mindset.

Here's a real life example of me trying to convince someone to get TiVo:

Him: I'm going to get a DVR, and I understand why you say TiVo is superior, but I don't have a telephone landline, just broadband and a LAN. ReplayTV has an Ethernet port, so I'm going to get that.

Me: But you can add a USB dongle to connect your TiVo to your LAN.

Him: Will it work out of the box? Will it be up and working as quickly and easily as a ReplayTV?

Me: No, well, first you will have to connect to a phone landline and download your setup info and guide data...

Him: I don't have a phone line.

Me: Well, you could download the guide data at my house or somewhere else that has a phone line...

Him: And then it will work?

Me: Well, no, you will still have to wait, since TiVo 3.0 doesn't support a LAN connection, however....

Him: So it won't work....

Me: No, there are workarounds I think which work under 3.0, which...

Him: Uh-huh.

Me: ...which allow you to add some kind of prefix to allow you to "dial out" over your LAN under 3.0, which should work until you get 4.0 downloaded, but I don't know exactly how that works, but you can get the details from this neat web forum at www.tivocommunity.com...

Him: And then it will work?

Me: Yes, however as I was going to add, you can leave the TiVo at my house and wait for a 4.0 software update, or you can force another redial after the guide data is downloaded, and you should then get 4.0 software which will work with your LAN.

Him: And then it will work?

Me: Probably, unless you are using certain Ethernet or WiFi dongles which aren't supported or need new drivers loaded, but you can find more about that at www.tivocommunity.com...

Him: (eyes glazing over) Uh-huh.

One week later, and he has a ReplayTV unit installed and working fine. All arguments I make at this point about how TiVo is superior are now moot.

Posted by: Dan203

quote:
Originally posted by dmdeane
Me: Yes, however as I was going to add, you can leave the TiVo at my house and wait for a 4.0 software update, or you can force another redial after the guide data is downloaded, and you should then get 4.0 software which will work with your LAN.

Actually all new units shipping today come with 4.01 preloaded, so they would only need to complete the initial setup via the phone line. In fact, with the right wired adapter, they wouldn't even need a phoneline for that. (i.e. using the ,#401 backdoor)

Dan

Posted by: MediaLivingRoom

I say forget the back door, just offer Broadband connection "option" from the start... and include a USB-TO-Ethernet adapter. They can always still connect using a POTS line.

Posted by: dmdeane

quote:
Originally posted by Dan203
Actually all new units shipping today come with 4.01 preloaded, so they would only need to complete the initial setup via the phone line. In fact, with the right wired adapter, they wouldn't even need a phoneline for that. (i.e. using the ,#401 backdoor)

Dan

(N.B.: My dialogue - which is actually a composite conversation with several different people - took place before 4.0 was shipping preloaded, in case there was any confusion on that matter, not that I think any of them would care today about 4.0 since they don't want to buy a dongle after spending so much money for TiVo in the first place. It's really a moot point: no Ethernet means no sale to them, period, game over, end of discussion.)

The point of my dialogue posted above is that non-TiVo users aren't interested in hearing about our "backdoor" features, tricks, tweaks, and other excuses for why the dang thing just doesn't work out of the box like it should.

They want the box to work for them out of the box. They don't want to have to go to some web forum and search for this kind of info. Expect them to jump through hoops to get their TiVo working the way they want, when other DVRs make it easier for them out of the box, and they will invariably go for the other DVRs instead. TiVo loses another potential customer.

And I don't think they are being unreasonable in their expectations, either.

Sure, now TiVos are shipping with 4.0 software, but the horse has already bolted the stable and closing the door now isn't going to undo what has been done. TiVo has lost sales, gotten bad reviews, and bad word of mouth, because of this.

(N.B.: To forestall accusations of "crying over spilt milk", let me clarify here that my purpose is not to "cry over spilt milk" but to simply assert the fact that the milk has indeed been spilt. There are still a lot of people in denial over this point, who still haven't realized that this is indeed a mistake with some negative consequences for TiVo.)

And the point still stands that TiVo can't work out of the box for those who don't have landlines (without jumping through hoops, which they won't do), and that its initial set up is still painfully slow compared to what a ReplayTV can do with a broadband connection. This is a major stumbling block for many purchasers who don't have landlines. There are many more of these kinds of people now than you realize. Trust me, I have met them.

These people won't listen to our explanations or our "workarounds". They will simply buy a Replay or some other DVR. They aren't a huge number of people, but they are a significant portion of TiVos potential market right now and losing them doesn't do TiVo any good.

As long as we have to explain the "ifs, ands, or buts" about TiVo LAN functionality, TiVo loses potential customers. They aren't going to listen to our workarounds. They are going to go elsewhere. As long has we have to explain things and make excuses, we will get "uh huh" reactions and "eyes glazing over" looks, and we will lose them. Another potential TiVo convert lost.

All of this could have been avoided for a few extra dollars or cents per box with a built-in Ethernet port. "Support" costs for Ethernet are virtually nil. Ethernet has been around forever and simply works without any bugs or glitches.

Not including Ethernet ports and forcing new users to use a landline (or an obscure hack) for initial set up is simply bizarre. I understand if the current Series 2 production lines can't be changed to accomodate Ethernet now, but that restriction doesn't apply to TiVo's hardware partners.

I would hope Humax or someone else will step up to the plate and give us some choice in TiVo hardware options, rather than another "more of the same" copy of the existing TiVo standalone models. Humax, stand apart from the crowd, please! Give us some choice in TiVo hardware!

Sony provided us with some "extras" (list button, larger case and room for second harddrive, better save-to-VCR function with Sony VCRs, etc). Adding an Ethernet port would help seperate any new box from the rest of the TiVo herd, so here's hoping someone at one of the TiVo hardware partners is thinking along these lines.

Posted by: dmdeane

quote:
Originally posted by MediaLivingRoom
I say forget the back door, just offer Broadband connection "option" from the start... and include a USB-TO-Ethernet adapter. They can always still connect using a POTS line.

Well, that's a thought, but it does add an extra expense to TiVo which only some of TiVo's customers will take advantage of.

If TiVo is going to spend the money anyway, it would be much cheaper in the long run to simply build in an actual Ethernet port to the TiVo hardware, rather than buying a more expense USB-to-Ethernet dongle and adding that to every TiVo box sent to retailers or customers.

So at best including a dongle with every TiVo would only be a temporary fix, until such time as all TiVos come with built in Ethernet ports as standard.

Posted by: dmdeane

Here's my "Reader's Digest version" of the dialogue for those who don't understand why unnecessary extra explanations end up killing potential TiVo sales:

quote:
Originally posted by dmdeane

Him: And then it will work?

Him: So it won't work....

Him: Uh-huh.

Him: And then it will work?

Him: And then it will work?

Him: (eyes glazing over) Uh-huh.

Posted by: dkroboth

Given TiVo's push to extract extra dollars for HMO and TiVo-To-Go, both of which REQUIRE network access, IMO, it only makes sense for them to invest $2.50 or whatever a 10/100 port ethernet port costs up front to make these options simpler to acquire from a user standpoint.

Posted by: ZeoTiVo

it was probably a decision on an amount much greater than $2.50. That would indeed be a no brainer. I think it was a decision based on the entire core of the box design in trying to make a box they can sell for the lowest price.

see this link for some detail
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-v...850#post1667850

so I think it amounted to, we will reduce sales this much due to no Ethernet port and use a more flexible USB adapter approach

or we will reduce sells this much due to added design time and expense to include ethernet port

so complain all you want, but to me I am more focused on wanting a TiVoToGo package and eventually a TiVo box with a builtin DVD recorder that does -/+ and has a great picture from TiVo to DVD no matter the recording size/Quality.

anyone seen a HUMAX do its thing yet ??

Posted by: dkroboth

I hadn't remembered Dan203's post. In light of that, USB was definately the way to go.

Posted by: DCIFRTHS

quote:
Originally posted by dkroboth
I hadn't remembered Dan203's post. In light of that, USB was definately the way to go.

Actually choosing the right chipset to begin with would have been the way to go.

A question: Doesn't the PCI bus support more than one device?

Posted by: Dennis Wilkinson

quote:
Originally posted by DCIFRTHS
Actually choosing the right chipset to begin with would have been the way to go.

You're assuming that there was/is a more appropriate chipset that met their cost requirements.

quote:
A question: Doesn't the PCI bus support more than one device?

Most do -- that's kind of the idea of a bus. There's usually a maximum device count, though, and the USB ports are likely only one device on the bus. There would be other devices in the TiVo already (like the ATA drive controller) that also sit on the bus. There may have only been a single "slot" left for USB or Ethernet, not a single slot total.

Posted by: DCIFRTHS

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis Wilkinson
You're assuming that there was/is a more appropriate chipset that met their cost requirements.

Correct.

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis Wilkinson
.....There may have only been a single "slot" left for USB or Ethernet, not a single slot total. [/B]

Okay. That makes sense.

Thanks.

Posted by: Dan203

quote:
Originally posted by dmdeane
The point of my dialogue posted above is that non-TiVo users aren't interested in hearing about our "backdoor" features, tricks, tweaks, and other excuses for why the dang thing just doesn't work out of the box like it should.

It does work out of the box! Your friends, with their home networks and no phone line, just happen to be in the minority of the population. The vast majority of people in this country have the exact opposite setup, and can easily connect a TiVo by simply plugging it into the nearest phone jack.

Not only that but USB does have one major advantage over a built in Ethernet adapter... cheap and easy wirelesss connections. With a built in Ethernet adapter your friends could easily connect to a wired network, but if they wanted to connect to their wireless network they would have to buy an expensive wireless bridge ($100+), configure it via a PC, then connect it to the Ethernet port. With a USB port you can buy a cheap USB adapter (~$25), connect it directly to the TiVo, enter a few settings via the TiVo interface and be good to go. This is especially convenient when dealing with customers who don't have a home network, or even PC, but still want to take advantage of features like Multi Room Viewing. They can buy a couple of USB adapters, configure the TiVos to talk directly to one another, and be ready to go. In that same situation, with only an Ethernet port, they would be forced to either run a cable, or buy two bridges at $100+ each and try to find some way to configure them.

Now I know what you're going to say... "Just put both in there". Well TiVoPony has specifically told us that that is not an option due to space issues. Not only that but I believe the chip they're using only has one PCI bus, so even if they didn't have a space issue they still wouldn't be able to add both.

Dan

Posted by: smak

I don't understand, for at the most a few hours of extra time, somebody would rather have years of an inferior product?

-smak-

Posted by: Crrink

quote:
Originally posted by smak
I don't understand, for at the most a few hours of extra time, somebody would rather have years of an inferior product?

-smak-

ReplayTV is far from an objectively 'inferior' product.

Not only do many RTV users feel that the product is far superior to TiVo, RTV is demonstrably, objectively superior at some tasks....many of which have to do with networking....coincidence? NOPE! ;)

And, I have to add, Pony's assertion that the back panel of the TiVo is too crowded to add an Ethernet port sounds just silly to me.
Not only is there enough room, IMO, but TiVo could do the cool thing and make their boxes standard width - then they'd have lots of extra space.

Posted by: ZeoTiVo

quote:
Originally posted by Crrink
ReplayTV is far from an objectively 'inferior' product.

Not only do many RTV users feel that the product is far superior to TiVo, RTV is demonstrably, objectively superior at some tasks....many of which have to do with networking....coincidence? NOPE! ;)

ahh, but the demonstratibly superior things have little to do with recording a show. The conflict resolution between two Replays is flawed - which only beats TiVo as TiVo will not put that out until it actually works :up:

and since with a GOOD USB 2.0 adapter people are streaming high quality shows in real time or better on a TiVo- than that adavantage is slipping away fast.

if you want to go wireless - then TiVo is actually easier out of the box since you use a USB dongle and skip the wireless bridge.

what other superior tasks are there ?
I think the ethernet port is a real non issue after you get the box setup and spend the 25$ to get a good USB 2.0 adapter.

Posted by: phone1

Back to Humax. I see it uses the same peanut remote, which makes me think the guts are the same as other SA Series 2. Anyone know where this is manufactured/assembled?

Posted by: Dennis Wilkinson

While I don't dispute that the Humax SA guts are likely the same as other SA Series 2's, I hadn't seen any info related to the remote -- do you have a link?

Posted by: Crrink

quote:
Originally posted by ZeoTiVo
ahh, but the demonstratibly superior things have little to do with recording a show. The conflict resolution between two Replays is flawed - which only beats TiVo as TiVo will not put that out until it actually works :up:

and since with a GOOD USB 2.0 adapter people are streaming high quality shows in real time or better on a TiVo- than that adavantage is slipping away fast.

if you want to go wireless - then TiVo is actually easier out of the box since you use a USB dongle and skip the wireless bridge.

what other superior tasks are there ?
I think the ethernet port is a real non issue after you get the box setup and spend the 25$ to get a good USB 2.0 adapter.

Yes, recording shows reliably was more important to me, and that's why I have two TiVo's and didn't buy a Replay until the $150 w/ activation SNAFU happened.

You note that TiVo is almost as good at show sharing after you go through a whole lot of hassle to get it that way, and you prove my point for me - no comparable hassle to networking RTV's.
It's been said that TiVo won't enable USB 2.0 support since some S2's don't have the right hardware. I don't know if this is true or not, but even if it is, RTV allows real-time random access to the HDD - meaning that you can stream a show and skip through it instantly. There's no waiting for the disk to fill up enough to enable skipping like there is with TiVo - no matter how fast you get a show transfer going.

Like I said, I obviously prefer the pro's of TiVo to those of RTV, like most of us here. But to claim that RTV is inferior is a bit silly.
Inferior for YOU (and me) perhaps.
Inferior for EVERYONE? Hardly.

p.s. and now I feel I've gone and made too much
out of Smak's comment - sorry.
I hope Humax builds a better TiVo too - that would be cool.

Posted by: ZeoTiVo

ok crrink,
I think we both covered the topic from our own perspective well enough for anyone else to make their own decision and since you are not a Replay diehard I need to convert I will get back to HUMAX
---

so here are some links on HUMAX

I see no mention of an actual model for sale of the TiVo/DVD recorder model yet nor a picture of the remote.

Hey UK readers - notice that HUMAX has a presence in the UK and there is talk of a freeview tuner TiVo model there. foloow the links.

http://www.humaxdigital.com/uk

http://www.emedialive.com/Articles/...&ArticleID=8196

forum discussion on UK TiVo rumors.
http://forum.digitalspy.co.uk/board...8712c408ds.html

Posted by: ccwf

quote:
Originally posted by ZeoTiVo
forum discussion on UK TiVo rumors.
http://forum.digitalspy.co.uk/board...8712c408ds.html

That looks like reporting of the rumors started in our own UK forum. Even the poll looks similar.

Posted by: ZeoTiVo

quote:
Originally posted by ccwf
That looks like reporting of the rumors started in our own UK forum. Even the poll looks similar.

I live in US so have not followed this much. There was an email purported to be from HUMAX sales at that link. Curious if it was considered valid or not. Seems kind of strange to me that there is not much activity from HUMAX on all of this as they are supposedly going to reelase in the next 3 months. Wondering if they are having problems getting a product ready for release ? I would really like to see some more TiVo/DVD recorder combos come on the market.

Posted by: Dan203

quote:
Originally posted by ccwf
That looks like reporting of the rumors started in our own UK forum. Even the poll looks similar.

What's "Freeview"?

Dan

Posted by: smak

quote:
Originally posted by Crrink
Like I said, I obviously prefer the pro's of TiVo to those of RTV, like most of us here. But to claim that RTV is inferior is a bit silly.
Inferior for YOU (and me) perhaps.
Inferior for EVERYONE? Hardly.

p.s. and now I feel I've gone and made too much
out of Smak's comment - sorry.
I hope Humax builds a better TiVo too - that would be cool.

Just to clarify my comments, dmdeane basically said he told his friends that Tivo was superior to Replay, they probably took his word for that, but still bought replay because of the extra hour that Tivo would make them go through on setup. Which is why I wondered why an hour would make them choose a product they've been told is inferior.

-smak-

Posted by: Dennis Wilkinson

quote:
Originally posted by Dan203
What's "Freeview"?

Don't know much about it myself, but:

<http://www.freeview.co.uk/aboutus/index.html>

Posted by: ZeoTiVo

quote:
Originally posted by Dan203
What's "Freeview"?

Dan

a UK "cable" setup where you buy a box with the right tuner and get the channels (30 I think) without paying a monthly bill. Not much more idea than that on it as of course I never watched any of it. But of Course DVRs with a freeview tuner in them are sought by those who want freeview.

http://www.freeview.co.uk/

Posted by: ccwf

Somebody from the UK should chime in, but I believe Freeview is the UK's DTV�digital, standard resolution channels delivered over the air. It's widely deployed but not available everywhere (depending on reception). Most channels are free, but some premium channels are imminent with UK TiVos already prepped to support them. To date, mostly viewed using receivers similar to cable boxes, but some devices with integrated Freeview support are starting to appear.

Of particular interest is an announced (but currently vaporware and not having anything to do with TiVo) Freeview+DVD recorder combo, which raises the possibility of legal all-digital recording with no analog conversion steps.