TiVo Community Forums Archives - Leaving the TiVolution... for now

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Leaving the TiVolution... for now
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Posted by: Peter000

After much consideration, I'm going to sell my TiVos and go back to a VCR. Maybe I'll get a different DVD Recorder down the road, or switch to DirecTiVo. Or I may even try a Cable DVR. I'm selling my current TiVos one by one on Ebay, if anyone is interested (see sig).

My main reasons are:
1. Picture Quality.

That's what it comes down to. If the PQ on the TiVo was a bit better (and it could be), I'd stay but I think I'm going to get a much more consistant PQ with my S-VHS VCR. I'm just too picky about the pixellation at lower than the highest PQ setting.

With the Pioneer, it's more than just the picture quality, it's the way it was marketed and the difference in features (no editing, mainly) that were advertised but never showed up in the machine. I'm plain mad about it ever time I look at the machine and that's not a healthy way to live.

I also believe the cost is outrageous for the stand alone when compared with other alternatives. But that's less of a concern for me.

Adios, TiVo!

Posted by: joegolf68

I also believe the cost is outrageous for the stand alone when compared with other alternatives. But that's less of a concern for me.

Wht cost? Yoiu have a lifetime subscription.

I have the new HD Tivo on order. I think that will be a decent qulity picture.

Posted by: phone1

Here's what happened to the last person who tried to leave the TiVolution for another DVR.

Posted by: kdmorse

I'm just too picky about the pixellation at lower than the highest PQ setting.

This implies that you are satisfied with the picture quality at the Highest PQ setting? If so, why not use that on your standalone?

I just can't imagine going back to the fighting, changing, labeling, programming, and supply cost that comes with doing things via the VCR.

But you've got a point about the editing on the Pioneer. Not only are there picture quality concerns, the lack of promised and advertised features is something to be miffed about. As it stands, the DVD drive is little more than a glorified Save to VCR function. You've every right to feel somewhat screwed.

However - remember that you've been screwed by Pioneer, not Tivo. Pioneer advertised these editing features publicly and repeatedly. Tivo reps stood up and publicly questioned what Pioneer was smoking - they NEW it wouldn't do what was advertised, and they said so.

-Ken

Posted by: rodneyremington

i find it interesting that you find the picture quality on TiVo to be unacceptable. I have a mulit-thousand dollar home theater setup and consider myself very particular about PQ, and I have not noticed any difference between live broadcast cable signal and the recorded version on TiVo. I have my settings on high, not even best. Of course, nothing compares to my HDTV PQ or even DVD, but that's not what we're watching on TiVo. I just don't see any difference with recorded standard definition TV picture quality. I wonder if there is something in your setup. I presume you are using svideo and that you have adjusted the settings in your monitor for your svideo input seperately from your cable or satellite input.

Anyways, good luck. I couldn't imagine using a VCR instead of a TiVo, I mean they aren't really the same thing at all in my opinion, kind of like using a blender instead of a toaster, but hey that's just me.

Posted by: Wavesprite

We just got Tivo (hooked it up two nights ago) and I was shocked at how good the quality is. I have mine set on "High" and it's great, I have no complaints. I was really nervous about how cruddy the picture quality was going to be, but I am extremely happy!

:)

Posted by: Chris Gerhard

If your TiVo at best quality doesn't produce a better picture than SVHS at SP quality, something is wrong with your TiVo. I still use SVHS VCRs and my ReplayTV and standalone TiVo both have noticeably better picture quality than SVHS in my opinion. Either PVR is also much easier to use to time shift. Don't get me wrong, I like SVHS to archive from TiVo when my children want to keep something but I would never be happy using it for daily viewing.

Chris

Posted by: TivoGeezer

If PQ was your only concern with the 60 hour machine, why not put 2-120's in there and record everything "best"?

Posted by: Hemi

Or better yet, have your TV calibrated (or calibrate it yourself) to maximize the PQ for the TiVo input? I'm sure that your PQ will improve enough that the pixelation would not be an issue.

Posted by: dmdeane

Even my TiVo at Basic level looks better than my old muddy VHS tapes. I'd trash my TV before I went back to using a VCR. Who wants the headaches of programming a VCR and managing stacks of tapes?

Posted by: jones07

Peter, all I have to say is HTPC
Better PQ then a SA DVR and much better then a old azz VCR.
http://www.htpcnews.com/

Posted by: terminus303

I had picture quality concerns with my SA Tivo and then I got a Direct with Tivo.... I'll leave to the gurus to explain why (or tell me I am wrong) but I think the picture is better than SA Tivo on best and there is no time/quality tradeoff.

Posted by: jones07

quote:
Originally posted by terminus303
I had picture quality concerns with my SA Tivo and then I got a Direct with Tivo.... I'll leave to the gurus to explain why (or tell me I am wrong) but I think the picture is better than SA Tivo on best and there is no time/quality tradeoff.

You are right. when I went from and old Replaytv 3020 to a DTiVo, I saw a picture quality improvement right off....day and night

Posted by: Robert S

DTiVoes send the digital video stream from the satellite straight to their hard drives. So playing a recording just involves sending that same stream to the decoder. No recompression, no analog intermediate stage.

The output from a DTiVo should therefore be identical to that of a normal satellite decoder box.

Posted by: mattack

quote:
Originally posted by kdmorse
However - remember that you've been screwed by Pioneer, not Tivo. Pioneer advertised these editing features publicly and repeatedly. Tivo reps stood up and publicly questioned what Pioneer was smoking - they NEW [sic] it wouldn't do what was advertised, and they said so.

Really? Does anyone have copies of that Pioneer advertizing? I don't remember that.

Personally, the Pioneer is currently available (including a rebate) for a price that I'd pay for it, if it had editing abilities. As it is, I'll probably get one of the Panasonic recorders (when the E85 comes out next month).

Posted by: PVRGuy

quote:
Originally posted by Peter000
After much consideration, I'm going to sell my TiVos and go back to a VCR. Maybe I'll get a different DVD Recorder down the road, or switch to DirecTiVo. Or I may even try a Cable DVR. I'm selling my current TiVos one by one on Ebay, if anyone is interested (see sig).

My main reasons are:
1. Picture Quality.

That's what it comes down to. If the PQ on the TiVo was a bit better (and it could be), I'd stay but I think I'm going to get a much more consistant PQ with my S-VHS VCR. I'm just too picky about the pixellation at lower than the highest PQ setting.

With the Pioneer, it's more than just the picture quality, it's the way it was marketed and the difference in features (no editing, mainly) that were advertised but never showed up in the machine. I'm plain mad about it ever time I look at the machine and that's not a healthy way to live.

I also believe the cost is outrageous for the stand alone when compared with other alternatives. But that's less of a concern for me.

Adios, TiVo!

Why on earth would you want to go back to using a VCR after experiencing TIVO?

Posted by: ZeoTiVo

Better you than me :D

Posted by: skanter

What size monitor are you using?

On my 27" Sony (at Best quality), Tivo looks better than any S-VHS tape I ever made. Anyone interested in PQ should upgrade their HD and use only Best as I do.

But how could you go back to tapes after the convenience and power of Tivo?

It's kind of like going back to floppy disks!

:confused:

Posted by: dmdeane

quote:
Originally posted by skanter
It's kind of like going back to floppy disks!

More like going back to punch cards.

Posted by: GameGuru

My SB Audigy 2 is really nice but I think I am gonna go back to my Sound Blaster Pro!

Posted by: lfrazier

I have around 400 VCR tapes that I recorded on my expensive Go Video 2 deck VCR that I bought around 8 years ago. Since I have bought my TiVo the only use I have had for all those tapes is to save shows for my family that doesn't have TiVo. The only stipulation I give them is that I don't get the tapes back. I would never go back to VCR. That is kind of like pulling out my external ZIP drive and hooking it up again!

Posted by: phone1

quote:
Originally posted by PVRGuy
Why on earth would you want to go back to using a VCR after experiencing TIVO?

I shuddered when I read that also. Sometimes I still wake up at night in a cold sweat. Did I remember to leave the VCR in record mode? Did I put the right tape in? Then I think of TiVo and fall blissfully back to sleep.

Plus the stacks of tapes with stickies, shows watched crossed off, fast forwarding and rewinding to the one we wanted - ugh! :rolleyes:

Posted by: TiVoMonkey

Trying to fast forward and rewind to find the beginning of a show you want to watch on a tape full of shows is the biggest reason I can't deal with VCR's anymore.

I won't even mention forgetting to put in a new tape and missing a show.

And how far has VCR programming progressed? Can you get more than 10 different things scheduled? Does it know when a show is a repeat? Would I even waste the money on a VCR that had that capability?

I haven't bought a pre-recorded VHS movie since getting a DVD player 8 years ago, and I haven't recorded anything on a VHS tape since getting a TiVo 4 years ago.

Posted by: ZeoTiVo

I haven't used a VHS/VCR in a blue moon :D

anyone that would go back to that for what they believe to be a slightly better picture is nuts :eek:

Posted by: pv

I find the 'slightly better picture' claim to be incredibly dubious. If I still had a standalone, I would simply have upgraded the disk enough to use best (or 'extreme' on the pioneer unit), which is going to easily be better-looking than the best VCR. And that's leaving out the mechanical issues and lack of flexibility that us timeshifters dealt with for years when we used VCRs. I can't imagine for a minute losing the ability to watch a recording in progress, which you can't do even with 2 vcrs. PV

Posted by: Redleg

I find the Panasonic DVD recorders with hard drives, like the E-80 and E-100, have a better PQ on SP (two-hour mode) than TiVo has at best. There are other brands too, but I only have experience with Panasonics.

If you're really going to dump TiVo altogether but still want to timeshfit, I'd recommend at least trying one of these over just a plain VCR. Although there's no guide (though soon there will be models that use "TV Guide On Screen" data), you can still use VCR+, you can start watching a show while it's recording, pause, slow motion etc. Plus it's an excellent DVD burner, with basic editing features and the ability to move the shows to your PC (if you have a PC drive that can read -RAM -- I know some other brands write to +RW).

Check out this AVS forum for good discussion of these devices.

Posted by: zaknafein

quote:
Originally posted by GameGuru
My SB Audigy 2 is really nice but I think I am gonna go back to my Sound Blaster Pro!

Oh come on, everyone knows all the cool kids have gone back to Pro Audio Spectrum 16s. :)

Posted by: Agent86

quote:
Originally posted by zaknafein
Oh come on, everyone knows all the cool kids have gone back to Pro Audio Spectrum 16s. :)

You know its all about Gravis Ultrasound, Adlib and Roland :).

- Agent 86

Posted by: control-z

Picture quality depends a lot on what the show content is. If there is a lot of action then it gets blocky. If there's a complicated background with a lot of action it's even worse.

Posted by: allan

I still have 1,001 movies/shows on VHS, though I seldom have time to watch them now (too much stuff in NP). And if I want to keep a show permanently, I save to VCR. But I haven't used it as a time-shifting device since I got Tivo. I don't commute to work in my horse & buggy either.

Posted by: Raj

quote:
Originally posted by dmdeane
More like going back to punch cards.

Actually, it's exactly like going back to reel to reel magnetic tape!

Posted by: mattack

quote:
Originally posted by TiVoMonkey
Trying to fast forward and rewind to find the beginning of a show you want to watch on a tape full of shows is the biggest reason I can't deal with VCR's anymore.

I won't even mention forgetting to put in a new tape and missing a show.

And how far has VCR programming progressed? Can you get more than 10 different things scheduled?

Note I'm *not* meaning to defend VCRs (they were a necessary evil to avoid commercials.. though I once in a while still use one to record a conflict.. though lately if there's only one conflict, I tend to watch the conflict live instead of videotaping it)..

Anyway, as for your first point -- I guess you never had VCRs with indexing. They've had it for many years. Each time you start a new recording, it puts an index point in (you can also add index points manually, usually by hitting the record button while in play mode). Then you can simply sequentially go through index points to find shows. It's certainly more handy than manually recording back or forward a half hour or hour at a time.

As for the second point, NO, it has not progressed. This is what concerns me about the various "manual recording" DVRs too, though from what I've had described to me, the Panasonics have a *little* bit more sophistication, but not much.

I never really understood why they couldn't add *more* recordings, more combinations of days (Tues-Saturday is common for late night shows), and a way to selectively disable individual recordings WITHOUT deleting them (for example, you know a show is a rerun this week).. These were things I would have paid maybe $100 more for when a decent VCR was $300-$400.

Posted by: Crrink

Actually Sony has a line of SmartFile VCR's (I think they still sell them), which bring the VCR experience about as close to TiVo as possible.

When TiVo debuted, I really wanted to get one, but I was daunted by the price and small recording capacity of the earliest units. After the 30 hour's came out, I lived in an apartment that would have made it very inconvenient to run a phone cable over to the jack.

What I got instead was a really nice VCR for $200.
3 days worth of on-screen guide provided by GemStar.
Recording by program name (though tied to the timeslot +/- 1 hour, and no way to detect repeats)
Simple, but effective search tools - i.e. sort all action movies by start time beginning with movies currently in progress.
SmartFile - you get a tape label that has a chip in it. The chip stores the show name and location on the tape, so you can cue shows automatically.

One heck of a nice VCR, and when I was a bachelor watching about 10 hours of TV a week, it worked wonderfully. No, it was no TiVo, but it was only $200 and didn't need a phone line.

I still use that VCR for the occasional conflict, but it really is a bear compared to the ease and speed of TiVo.

Anyway, if the OP is going to back to VCR's, then I'd check the SmartFile ones out - he's going to need all the help he can get :)

One last thing regarding PQ - I realize that TiVo has better PQ on paper, and apparently in many of your eyes, but the thing that bugs me (still) about TiVo is pixelization. No VCR does that. I record a few shows like Survivor on High because TiVo has such a hard time with moving water - I don't know if Best gets rid of the pixelization, but even at High it's really bad - still watchable to me, but 100% noticeable.
As for the other aspects of PQ that TiVo is better at - I do't' know what it is, but I don't think I really notice those things - maybe the OP is the same way?

Posted by: Peter000

Thanks for all your replies and well wishes.

As I said, I can see a definite PQ quality difference in the TiVo vs Live TV vs S-VHS.

The loss of quality on TiVo is a different kind of loss of quality than on S-VHS. When TiVo loses PQ, the blockiness of the picture goes up. When S-VHS loses quality the picture gets softer. I can live with the softer pic better than the blocky pic. It's a matter of prefs.

I can't afford HD right now. I have PLENTY of VCRs to record on around the house... I could set up three off of the same TV if I wanted to. So it's also a no-cost issue for me.

And next week I'll be in my new place and deciding what kind of TV service I do want. Either I'll go with basic basic Cable/internet from Time Warner, or I'll go with internet from Time Warner and Satellite w/ DirecTiVo. Budget wise I've kind of hit the skids at the moment, so it looks like I'll go with the cheapest alternative I can.

At any rate, I've tried the SA TiVo with both Cable and Satellite, and am not satisfied with the PQ at High on either. Best is Okay. But still not good enough for me. IMO VCRs work better, picture-wise, with these services, as well as Over-the-air. I don't relish the idea of going back to a VCR at ALL. I'm not going to sell my 810 until after I move, and it's still going to be hard to let go. But I do want to sell it before the new batch of TiVo DVD recorders come out, to get the most value out of the resale.

I absolutely love the TiVo interface, and convenience. And I believe great things are ahead for the company. I just can't stand the PQ right now. I'm just too picky. And Pioneer's refusal to fix an obvious flaw in the machine makes me too angry. grrrrr.

Posted by: kdmorse

I realize it's by no means the *right* answer, but if you adjust your TV, decreasing the sharpness setting, you can get all the blockyness on the tivo to disappear.

It will end up looking just like (thought probably better) than the softer block free image you get from your VCR's.

Just a thought...

-Ken

Posted by: Peter000

quote:
Originally posted by kdmorse
I realize it's by no means the *right* answer, but if you adjust your TV, decreasing the sharpness setting, you can get all the blockyness on the tivo to disappear.

It will end up looking just like (thought probably better) than the softer block free image you get from your VCR's.

Just a thought...

-Ken

Believe me, I've tried it all to get the picture the way I want it. But it's garbage in garbage out... if the signal from the TiVo is bad there's no way the TV's going to correct it. And this is on a 27" monitor... what happens when I go to a 50" projection DLP? The blocks are just going to be 4 times bigger.

Posted by: cwerdna

Yes, I agree the loss is a different kind of loss than VHS, but for me, high quality for the most part is already better than what I can get in VHS at SP. Best except in very few cases in indistinguishable from live TV to me. I used to watch on a 27" TV. Now I watch using a front projector w/an image size of 66" diagonal. I record mostly in high, sometimes at medium and even a few shows in basic.

This is on my Series 1s though and I don't have Series 2s to compare with. I've looked briefly at the Pioneer DVD recorder and agree the PQ isn't very good.

I think you should hack your 60 hour unit and put in dual 120s or 160s so you can record everything at best or high.

Posted by: skanter

quote:
Originally posted by cwerdna

I think you should hack your 60 hour unit and put in dual 120s or 160s so you can record everything at best or high.

Anyone with PQ issues needs to record -everything- at Best and upgrade their HD to capacity as big as possible. If you are using high or medium, you are wasting your time. I do professional video production and am very sensitive to PQ. Best on my SA Tivo with digital cable is fine, and almost indistinguishable from the source on my 27" Sony. It is certainly better than S-VHS. I could never watch anything on VHS.

Of course, larger monitors will be more of a problem...

Posted by: Peter000

quote:
Originally posted by skanter
Anyone with PQ issues needs to record -everything- at Best and upgrade their HD to capacity as big as possible. If you are using high or medium, you are wasting your time. I do professional video production and am very sensitive to PQ. Best on my SA Tivo with digital cable is fine, and almost indistinguishable from the source on my 27" Sony. It is certainly better than S-VHS. I could never watch anything on VHS.

Of course, larger monitors will be more of a problem...

Well, If I want to archive anything longer than an hour on my 810, it HAS to be at high or lower. I do professional video production too, and I believe that S-VHS SP quality is better than a Stand alone TiVo best quality. I can see edge artifacts abounding on TiVo, and S-VHS first gen is pretty sharp (for a consumer format). Even VHS I believe is better than anything below Best. It certainly plays back better when a program is recorded from an iffy broadcast signal quality. YMMV... it all depends what you'll accept and define as poor PQ.

Posted by: skanter

quote:
Originally posted by Peter000
Well, If I want to archive anything longer than an hour on my 810, it HAS to be at high or lower. I do professional video production too, and I believe that S-VHS SP quality is better than a Stand alone TiVo best quality. I can see edge artifacts abounding on TiVo, and S-VHS first gen is pretty sharp (for a consumer format). Even VHS I believe is better than anything below Best. It certainly plays back better when a program is recorded from an iffy broadcast signal quality. YMMV... it all depends what you'll accept and define as poor PQ.

Is your source digital cable? To my eyes, there is little of the edge artifacting you mention. S-Video recording (SP)on my JVC VCR is noiser and softer than Tivo at Best.

I guess much of this is subjective, and the monitor and source have a lot to do with it. Also, the 810 is problematic concerning PQ.

Posted by: dmdeane

quote:
Originally posted by Peter000
Believe me, I've tried it all to get the picture the way I want it. But it's garbage in garbage out... if the signal from the TiVo is bad there's no way the TV's going to correct it. And this is on a 27" monitor...

Mein Gott...you are picky.

I've been watching TiVo using the basic recording level for almost four years now, and I hardly notice anything in regards to PQ.

I don't freak out about the occasional pixelization.

I find the PQ far preferable to the unbearable muddiness of typical VHS recordings I use to make.

Not to mention the sheer clunkiness and hassle of using a VCR and tapes.

I guess I've learned to ignore pixelization, but I just can't understand why this freaks some people out.

It would be a different matter if I had purchased a DVD expecting a good sharp, unpixelated picture. But TiVo is just for casual TV viewing, not for high end home theater cinema-worship.

I don't care if my daily fix of The Simpsons or The Daily Show has some pixelization in it or not. It ain't high art, dagnabit. It's just TV. PQ isn't the issue for me: getting my daily TV fix is.

Posted by: Chris Gerhard

I have never seen the picture quality using a Pioneer 810. The only TiVo standalone I have ever owned is a Philips HDR212. I also own a Panasonic Showstopper ReplayTV. I have owned a bunch of SVHS VCRs. I have owned and sold a Sony SL-VR5UC, and various NEC, RCA, and Panasonic SVHS VCRs. I now own and use only JVC SVHS VCRs because I prefer the picture quality and features. Currently I have a JVC HR-S7100U, HR-S9500U, and HR-S9800U. The picture quality with these VCRs is the best I have seen with consumer SVHS in my opinion. My TiVo is better at best than any of those are at SP. I have never recorded anything other than best quality with my standalone TiVo and never recorded anything but best when using my Panasonic ReplayTV. I mostly use SVHS SP and believe the PVR picture quality is better than SVHS SP and although the difference isn't enormous it is significant.

It sure sounds like your problem is a result of the Pioneer not living up to the potential of MPEG2 encoding and decoding using a hard drive. Try something else in my opinion. If you are happy with SVHS picture quality, you should also be happy with a hard disk video recorder at best quality. My standalone TiVo HDR212 was purchased as a refurbished model and came with two 120GB hard drives and 84 hours recording capacity at best quality for $210 plus shipping. I am obviously not against VCRs and plan to continue to use mine for many years, just not for timeshifting weekly programming and certainly not because I can record analog OTA with better picture quality (because I can't!). I really can't comment about results using analog cable, digital cable, or satellite TV since I don't use a standalone PVR for any of those sources.

Chris

Posted by: skanter

quote:
Originally posted by Chris Gerhard
I really can't comment about results using analog cable, digital cable, or satellite TV since I don't use a standalone PVR for any of those sources.

Chris

Huh? Rabbit ears? (what am I missing here?)
:confused:

Posted by: dgh

quote:
Originally posted by skanter
Huh? Rabbit ears? (what am I missing here?)
:confused:

OTA in the previous sentence??? ;)

A rooftop antenna often provides much better picture quality than the local analog cable system. (Though only for a few local channels of course.)

Posted by: Chris Gerhard

quote:
Originally posted by dgh
OTA in the previous sentence??? ;)

A rooftop antenna often provides much better picture quality than the local analog cable system. (Though only for a few local channels of course.)

Correct.

Chris

Posted by: dmlove51

I have Comcast HD. If I want to get TiVO (I do), it would probably be smarter to go with DirecTV because its cheaper (I figure about $25/mo cheaper with HD capability, HBO, Showtime and Sports Package and a couple of TiVOs). I'm a little skittish about making the jump because the HD I have on Comcast is outstanding, and of course, I would have to buy equipment - the HD Sat/OTA receiver and antenna being the difference between cable and sat.

So my question is, can I count on the OTA HD quality being outstanding?

Posted by: Chris Gerhard

quote:
Originally posted by dmlove51
So my question is, can I count on the OTA HD quality being outstanding?

Nobody that has an HDTV TiVo can comment yet on the quality but I believe if you can receive OTA HDTV, it will provide outstanding picture quality with OTA HDTV and DirecTV HDTV. OTA HDTV is outstanding in all cases I have seen. I have never seen cable HDTV however and can't compare the two.

Chris

Posted by: dmlove51

quote:
OTA HDTV is outstanding in all cases I have seen.

Well, I've never seen OTA HDTV as far as I know, but if its "outstanding", that's good. I may just make the switch. The cost savings over a year will pretty much cover the hardware cost (HD receiver, assuming I can pick up one of the Hughes receivers at CC still) and antenna, plus I'll have way better TiVO options - dual tuner being the primary one. Thanks.

Posted by: Rhughes

quote:
Originally posted by Peter000
After much consideration, I'm going to sell my TiVos and go back to a VCR. Maybe I'll get a different DVD Recorder down the road, or switch to DirecTiVo. Or I may even try a Cable DVR. I'm selling my current TiVos one by one on Ebay, if anyone is interested (see sig).

I can't even imagine doing that. It's like going back to cars without self starters. My wife would leave me. I would wake up at night in a cold sweat hoping it was all a nightmare. PQ using our Sony T-60 on a Sony XBR is as good a picture as I have ever seen on any TV, short of HDTV. It isn't just a matter of recording. A VCR would eliminate all the program control of the TiVo. If I want to record something previously recorded, I send it to a Pioneer DVR 310 recorder, not an ancient VCR. And try to record your important programs for 3-weeks while on vacation with a VCR. Good luck!

Posted by: Bigg

I could see going for BTV or MythTV or a DishDVR, but for a VCR? You're crazy.

Posted by: mitchb2

quote:
Originally posted by rodneyremington
i find it interesting that you find the picture quality on TiVo to be unacceptable.

I also find it to be unacceptable. My Series 2 replaced a Series 1, and the step down in picture quality was immediately apparent.
I've gotten used to it, but that doesn't mean it's good. The artifacts are terrible.