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Wireless networking Q
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Posted by: sanderton

I am trying to get my house fully networked, but it's a stone built farmhouse with three foot thick internal walls and its causing me some issues.

At present I have a wired network on the ground floor connecting my study with the living room and kids playroom where the the TiVos are.

I want to be able to have network connectivity on the first floor too, but running wires through several enormous stone walls is too much like hard work. However said walls also mean the wireless stuff doesn't have the range.

My idea is this:

I add 802.11g to my current wired network in the study.

In the attic have a repeater directly over the study, and then have further repeaters over each room I want networked (the walls stop at attic floor height). Data from the internet or the TiVos would then route via the adapter in the study to the one in the roof, then sideways from that one to one over the relevant room , then down to an adapter attached to the target device (an XBox, probably).

Would this work? Can a wireless signal "bounce" that many times?

And if so, can anyone tell me what combination of access points, bridges, rouers and game adapters I'm likely to need?

Posted by: pgogborn

Three foot is a mighty obstacle, but it could be worth do a search on your favourite search engine of "war driving" antenna to review how people use enhanced antenna to boost reception.

Going the attic root is probably the most aesthetically pleasing, but if all rooms where reception is required have an external window, I would be tempted to see if mounting antenna near windows, either externally or internally, can keep the network in-touch (also a possible alternative route for a wired network which would give you the maximum bandwidth for streaming video).

Posted by: sanderton

Listed building; can't do anything external.

Posted by: Automan

Install a fibre optic 10 Gigabit network.

If a jobs worth doing, its worth doing well :)

Also immune from hackers and the fibres are so small.

Automan

Posted by: iankb

If you have a garden shed with mains power that is in view of the necessary rooms, you could try siting A/P's in the windows and using a repeater A/P in the shed. That would probably use fewer repeaters than your loft.

Of course, you could always move to a nice modern Wimpey estate with timber-frame walls. :D

Next time I go house-hunting, I will definitely expect to see such things as broadband-connectivity in the house details.

Posted by: kitschcamp

In new-builds it is increasingly common to see broadband status from BT or the cable company in the details.

Posted by: Sneals2000

I think that the 54Mbs "g" variant is better at coping with wireless repeating and bridging than the 11Mbs "b" variant?

I had to register the MAC addresses of my Belkin 54g access points (and update the firmware) to get them to talk to each other - but once I did this I was able to bridge my upstairs and downstairs wired networks with no problems.

But I also live in a 70s box - so I doubt there is much attenuation going on!

(The Belkins and a few other access points have two aerials - though I don't know if this is to allow diversity reception or not.)

Posted by: iankb

The two aerials are for diversity. It uses the one with the strongest reception. I believe that you can get directional aerials with stronger signals, albeit not for legal use. ;)

Posted by: iguru42

You might want to consider getting a Linksys WRT54G and loading the firmware from Sveasoft. The Sveasoft firmware allows you to bump the transmit power from 24mw to 84mw. Of course the long term effects on the router of having the transmit power maxed is completely unknown at this time. I've been running mine at 54 with no problems and it gives me an effective range (through a brick building) of 100 yards.

Posted by: iankb

If you can up the power by firmware, it sounds like the hardware is designed to handle it, and is artificially limited by local legislation. The only problem with upping the power can be conflicts with the neighbours. My Philips video sender has a very striong signal and no directable aerial. I should imagine that half the neighbourhood watches my TiVo. :D

Posted by: sanderton

quote:
Originally posted by iankb
If you can up the power by firmware, it sounds like the hardware is designed to handle it, and is artificially limited by local legislation. The only problem with upping the power can be conflicts with the neighbours. My Philips video sender has a very striong signal and no directable aerial. I should imagine that half the neighbourhood watches my TiVo. :D

Nearest neighbour a mile away so not an issue! :)

Posted by: iankb

I presume that you've looked at networks that are piggy-backed on the mains cabling. Not that my mains is clean enough to use for 'phone connections. How do they get the mains cabling through the 3-foot thick walls?

Posted by: kitschcamp

quote:
Originally posted by iguru42
You might want to consider getting a Linksys WRT54G and loading the firmware from Sveasoft. The Sveasoft firmware allows you to bump the transmit power from 24mw to 84mw.

Similar things can be done with the Netgear ME102, but I haven't got the link to hand as it's on my work laptop.

Posted by: iankb

Re. the use of mains cabling, this link may of interest. There is also a link to an ADSLGuide review on that page.

Posted by: sanderton

quote:
Originally posted by iankb
I presume that you've looked at networks that are piggy-backed on the mains cabling. Not that my mains is clean enough to use for 'phone connections. How do they get the mains cabling through the 3-foot thick walls?

My mains is a mess; the UPS is forever clicking on on and off and we don't need a complex security alarm as if the outside light trips on all the lights in the house dim. Kinda doubt it could handle a decent throughput - anyway the mains systems I've seen aren't up to streaming video.

"With very long drills" is the answer. I've put CAT5 through one wall - it took me two days and I had to drill using the longest drill bit Homebase sell from both sides and hope I could make the ends meet, a la Channel tunnel! Most of the wiring (and pipework) is on the surface or just buried in the top bit of plaster, going through the walls where there used to be doors or windows or around the doorframes of the existing ones. A fair bit is attached to the outside of the house then buried in render. Fortunately only the central wall is as thick as that - the normal partition type walls are a mere 18 inches to 2ft. It's all very thick because it's rubble stone, not decent stuff - but that tends to have the odd lunp of flint in it which drills just will not go through. Bit of a mare really.

Posted by: GarySargent

quote:
Originally posted by iguru42
You might want to consider getting a Linksys WRT54G and loading the firmware from Sveasoft. The Sveasoft firmware allows you to bump the transmit power from 24mw to 84mw. Of course the long term effects on the router of having the transmit power maxed is completely unknown at this time. I've been running mine at 54 with no problems and it gives me an effective range (through a brick building) of 100 yards.

Sounds interesting, but how do the clients talk back unless they too somehow have their power increased?

Posted by: iankb

quote:
Originally posted by sanderton
Bit of a mare really.

A country life and technology don't really seem to mix. I think that you should either move to a Docklands penthouse, or start raising pigs. :D

Posted by: ericd121

quote:
Originally posted by iankb
A country life and technology don't really seem to mix. I think that you should either move to a Docklands penthouse, or start raising pigs. :D

I was quite impressed that sanderton's "Nearest neighbour a mile away" yet he can receive ADSL!
Unless, of course, his nearest neighbour is the local exchange...

Sounds like a nice life, actually; Pigs and ADSL or Broadband and Broadbacks.

Posted by: pgogborn

A rushed visit to the forum just in case you make a Easter Monday shopping trip to buy equipment.

A quick review suggests that even at 2.4 GHZ the cone of silence could be a significant impediment to the solution you suggest if you use standard antenna arrays and orientation.

I will post a fuller and more considered view after the hols.

Posted by: sanderton

quote:
Originally posted by ericd121
I was quite impressed that sanderton's "Nearest neighbour a mile away" yet he can receive ADSL!
Unless, of course, his nearest neighbour is the local exchange...

Sounds like a nice life, actually; Pigs and ADSL or Broadband and Broadbacks.

Ok, it might be 3/4 a mile to the nearest neigbour (a pub. :) ). And actually we do have three pig sties - vacant at the moment though!

I was somewhat suprised to be able to get broadband too; the local exchange is about two miles or so away on the edge of the nearest town; in this part of Somerset you go from "urban" to extremely rural in the the blink of an eye. If you stand on the brow of the rise at the front of our house and look south west you see the Blackthorn cider factory and the warehouses and light industial estates of Shepton Mallet; if you turn around you see nothing but the Mendip hills and a couple of farmhouses. the hill completely screens out Shepton, so we feel VERY rural!

The broadband was probably helped by an incident two years ago when the local farmer's accuracy at rabbit shooting left something to be desired and he shot out the telephone line half a mile from the house. It was too decrepid to repair, so they ran a new brand one out from the exchange. As they also had to pay me several hundred Ł in compensation for loss of service in the month it took to fix, I reckon that BT will start making a profit out of me in about 2034. :)

The other big advantage to living out here in the wilds is we get our own special allocation of Glastonbury tickets (and a locals only hotline to order them!)

I have The Wurzels on my iPod....

Posted by: sanderton

quote:
Originally posted by pgogborn
A rushed visit to the forum just in case you make a Easter Monday shopping trip to buy equipment.

A quick review suggests that even at 2.4 GHZ the cone of silence could be a significant impediment to the solution you suggest if you use standard antenna arrays and orientation.

I will post a fuller and more considered view after the hols.

Ah, I hadn't thought of that. Look forward to your post.

Posted by: pgogborn

quote:
Originally posted by GarySargent
Sounds interesting, but how do the clients talk back unless they too somehow have their power increased?

That is why the "war drivers" I referred to above use enhanced antenna.

You can increase the gain of a signal by choosing the right antenna. The increase in gain achieved by "war drivers" applies just as much to the transmission as it does to the reception of signals.

To put it another way, a high gain antenna gives you a double whammy. It increases the power of both the transmitted and received signal. The Sveasoft firmware mod boosts only the transmitted power.

Of course, there are trade-offs involved when relying on a high gain antenna rather than raw transmission power:
a) From the point of viewer of the receiver, you are increasing the noise to signal ratio. The signal you want could be swamped by other signals, pollution from micro-wave ovens etc.
b) From the point of view of both the transmitter and the receiver, the greatest per cent increase in gain is gained at the expense of narrowing the angle of the signal (a.k.a. increasing the 'cone of silence').

It seems to me to be quite a good plan to have a base station with an omni-directional antenna and boosted transmission power (be it via loading Sveasoft type software or other less legitimate circuit board hacks) and clients with directional high-gain antenna.

Posted by: pgogborn

quote:
Originally posted by sanderton
Ah, I hadn't thought of that.

I have got to say my knee-jerk response was that the 2.4 GHz band was allocated to things like Wi-Fi and Video Senders because the 'Cone of Silence' was not a significant issue.

I have been unable to track down high-grade tech-spec sheets that address the issue. However, I have come across a third hand report that reports what I think is a staggering low 50° degree vertical transmission pattern with an omni-directional antenna >
http://alamo.satlug.org/pipermail/s...ber/013032.html

Now, it has to emphasized that the antenna being reported on was a high gain-antenna intended to extend the range of a router. However, the fact that it was omni-directional leads me to believe that even with a standard omni-directional antenna, you could have a blind spot if you locate a client directly below a repeater. You may be able to rely on radiation reflecting objects in the room to scatter the signal and establish a link, but this may considerably decrease the bit-rate achieved.

Interestingly, I now recall that when aligning my 2.4 GHz Video Sender antenna it was very permissive in the horizontal plane but required careful alignment in the vertical plane. However, as I only wanted a one to one link, I purchased a sender that had an antenna that looked as if it was directional rather than omni-directional.

If you have got a high pitched roof that is not thatched (fire risk), perhaps you could mount a single repeater high and centre, orientated horizontally.

Incidentally, I have discovered two other areas where 2.4 GHz is less than optimum:
1) At the frequency some cell-phones work, you can get reception in under-ground trains etc. if you string a "leaky antenna" the length of the tunnel. It would be nice if you could install a leaky antenna all round your house underneath the eaves, but unfortunately it will not work at 2.4 GHz.
2) Broadly speaking, 2.4 GHz boxes should be located close to the antenna - related to 1) above, loss of signal in 2.4 GHz cables is high.

A couple of interesting links >
http://www.swisswireless.org/wlan_calc_en.html
http://www.data-linc.com/pdffiles/i&cs9909.pdf

Posted by: pgogborn

quote:
Originally posted by iankb
If you have a garden shed with mains power that is in view of the necessary rooms, you could try siting A/P's in the windows and using a repeater A/P in the shed.

I have got to say this would be my preferred solution for a Wi-Fi network, as going horizontal over a greater distance may propagate the signal better than going vertical over a shorter distance.

It also makes it easier to incorporate directional high-gain antenna into the network.

Also, it makes it easier for saddos like me to listen to Internet radio on a lap-top at the bottom of the garden.

However, there may be a reason why 2.4 GHz is allocated to the likes of Video Senders as well as being used by micro-wave ovens.

Micro-wave ovens heat the coffee but not the cup. To put it another way, water molecules absorb (perhaps inefficiently) 2.4 GHz radiation rather than letting it pass through.

To extrapolate from this, heavy rain fall could severely attenuate (reduce) a 2.4 GHz signal - it is thus best used indoors.

Extrapolating still further and wilder, perhaps a 2.4 GHz signal can pass easier through a thick bone dry wall than a thin damp one.

Posted by: pgogborn

quote:
Originally posted by Automan
Install a fibre optic 10 Gigabit network.

In combination with the three foot internal walls and the long occupation of the house it would certainly give the archaeologist of the future something to think about.

S/he will either have no idea what it was used for, in which case it will be described as being of 'ritualistic significance'.

or

It will be deduced as being expensive in which case the house will be described as belonging to a 'high status individual'.

[Rant Mode]
Why do archaeologists, when they discover gold ornaments in a grave, describe the person buried as being a 'high status individual'?

The person I saw wearing the most gold jewelry was a long time ago when I walked a block too far in Detroit. He was a drug dealer, probably with access to lethal weapons. - perhaps high status in a limited community, but to most a dangerous crook.
[/Rant Mode]

A Grade 1 listing apart, if intending to stream high-quality video, I think cable is the way to go - perhaps installing a ring around the house just below ground level or under the eaves or both with a connection, with entry points through window frames.

Posted by: iankb

Most Wi-Fi access points come with twin diversity aerials nowadays. I usually set one vertical, and one horizontal, and the A/P will choose the aerial with the strongest signal. I would have thought that this would resolve the vertical cone of silence.

Posted by: cyril

If you have windows close by on either side of the three foot stone walls you might be able to get away with using access points positioned there to 'sneak around' the stone. However, I have to open my window to get better range to my roof garden as the windows are quite thick and lead lined.

Posted by: sanderton

Sounds like I need to buy a couple of boxes and play!

Posted by: pgogborn

quote:
Originally posted by sanderton
Sounds like I need to buy a couple of boxes and play!

The current (May 2004) issue of PC Pro has a review of access points and routers, but it only includes one box, which as per your original request for info, is specifically sold as a repeater. The repeater it describes, the Buffalo Technology AirStation WLA-G54C Wireless Repeater, as do many repeaters, only has one antenna >
http://reviews-zdnet.com.com/Buffal...6-30576840.html

However, many routers have a repeater capability and many of those routers have twin antenna which allow the iankb option of a horizontal and a vertical orientation. Unfortunately not all routers with twin antenna allow them to be detached - which precludes the substitution of an antenna with higher gain.

The spec sheets are very sparse on how twin diversity boxes handle the transmission, rather than the reception of the signal. Do they transmit on both antenna? Do they have to reduce the power to each so that the combined output stays within statutory regulations?

Just in case PC Pro is sold out I will list the recommended buys.

PC Pro Recommended. D-Link AirPlus Xtreme G+ DWL-2000AP
(incorrectly identified as the 200AP by PC PRo)
One fixed external antenna.
Can act as a repeater
>
http://www.dlink.com/products/?pid=10

PC Pro Recommended (and the one I like the look of) Asus WL-500g Wireless LAN Router
One removable external antenna
One fixed internal antenna
Can act as a repeater
Can attach a USB hard drive so that it acts as a FTP server.
Can act as a print server.
> http://www.asus.com/products/commun...0g/overview.htm

PC Pro Labs Winner (U.S. Robotics Wireless Turbo Access Point and Router
2 removable external antenna
Can NOT act as a repeater
Can act as a print server
>
http://www.usr.com/products/network...asp?sku=USR8054

Posted by: sanderton

Many thanks pgogborn.

That Asus one looks interesting; the external HD feature has got me thinking I could use it as a video file store in the roof...

Posted by: pgogborn

quote:
Originally posted by sanderton
That Asus one looks interesting; the external HD feature has got me thinking I could use it as a video file store in the roof...

The Asus one would be my choice.

I should point out that I believe the USB port is only 1.1.

I bet you (Sanderton) already know, but for the benefit of other people reading this thread, you can often obtain considerable savings by buying a hard drive and USB enclosure separately, rather than buying a ready made combo.

I have also remembered that you mentioned attaching an XBox to the network. I am sure that you would not use a XBox solely as Bill Gates intended, but it is worth pointing out that the Asus is UPnP-enabled, so you would be able to play XBox Live. It is possible that the other routers I listed are NOT UPnP enabled.

Posted by: AMc

FWIW I use two Buffalo WBR54G routers at home - one is connected to the cable modem running firewall and DHCP and the other is used as a bridge for PS2 and a signal repeater for my laptop (DHCP server is disabled).
It works very well allowing the laptop to 'roam' between the two (almost) seamlessly.

There is a socket on the back to attachan external antenna

(today is obviously typo day)

Posted by: lendavis

I use the USR system, if you did not notice in the specs http://www.usr.com/products/network...ecs&sku=USR5450 This range will adjust in software up to 100mw.
As far as I can find out there are no others in this price bracket to compare.
Regards.
Len

Posted by: sanderton

I was thinking that looked good until I saw the price!

Posted by: lendavis

Sorry it's 150mw and get it here for 81ukp inc vat. http://www.scan.co.uk/Products/Prod...ProductID=77586 .
Len

Posted by: sanderton

The first link said $250. How prices fall!

Posted by: sanderton

Took the plunge and bought two of the USR 5450s. Most disappointed to discover that the 100Mbps "turbo" option doesn't work between two USR 5450s in bridge mode but only from a normal client card to a 5450. :(

Posted by: pgogborn

quote:
Originally posted by sanderton
Took the plunge and bought two of the USR 5450s. Most disappointed to discover that the 100Mbps "turbo" option doesn't work between two USR 5450s in bridge mode but only from a normal client card to a 5450. :(

Bummer!

By the way, this weeks issue (April 29th 2004) of micro mart contains an article on installing a wireless network by somebody who avoided wires because he lives in "200 year old cottage with incredibly thick (and flaky) Cobb walls." Unfortunately no specific information is given on signal strength problems and solutions.

Posted by: sanderton

Cobb is mud and straw so is probably just fine!

I've so far been pleasantly surprised by the signal strength. With one 5450 configured as an AP in the study and the other as a repeater in the room above, I've been able to get a 54kbps signal and watch streaming video several rooms while walking around the house withmy laptop. :)

The wireless networking overhead is bigger than I'd hoped though - it knocks 200K/s off the transfer speed, which is going to make "live" TiVo to TiVo streaming very touch and go.

Posted by: sanderton

Managed to find a position for the APs which avoids most of ths walls and got a 54kbps connection to the upstairs TiVo. Gardeners World is streaming over wireless as I speak. Seems the upstairs machine's lack of input speeds up the TiVo enough to compensate for the network slowdown. :)