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interesting article--especially last paragraph
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Posted by: tivolovr

I bumped across this and thought I'd share. Especially read the last paragraph ... head in sand, anyone?

http://www.emonline.com/topstorys/073001pvr.html

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Posted by: osterber

My parents for the most part don't know what network they're watching, and they don't have a Tivo. They usually know that West Wing is on Wednesday at 10, but they hunt around to find what channel it's on.

They also couldn't tell you what network news they like... just that it's Tom Brokaw and it's on channel 7.

-Rick

Posted by: DrStrange

Damn, no statistics on what percentage of PVR owners timeshift everything vs watch most things live. I was hoping for something that would shut arjay up. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

quote:
Of particular interest to the advertising industry is the finding that the same percentage of viewers skip through television commercials with PVRs as fast-forward through them with VCRs. According to Mr. Wallace, that figure is around 25 percent in both cases.

Didn't Tivo give an 80% figure somewhere?

quote:
The study finds that 47 percent of study respondents have TiVo and 35 percent have ReplayTV.

I'm surprised at that. Estimates I'd seen last year had Tivo at 2-3 times Replay and I'd assumed the gap was widening since Replay restructured and went into stealth mode.

quote:
NextResearch pegs the number of PVRs currently in consumers' homes at approximately 300,000; other estimates place the number at up to 400,000.

These numbers are weird. Tivo has 200K units, right? Dishplayer has at least 200K units, right? That's 400 right there without counting Replay or UTV, 100K more than NextResearch estimates the total to be. Maybe they didn't include dishplayer, but then what's the missing 13%? What time frame was the survey taken in? If it's old, how relevant is it?

I'm confused. I hate incomplete data.

Posted by: walters

quote:
Originally posted by osterber:
My parents for the most part don't know what network they're watching, and they don't have a Tivo. They usually know that West Wing is on Wednesday at 10, but they hunt around to find what channel it's on.

They also couldn't tell you what network news they like... just that it's Tom Brokaw and it's on channel 7.

-Rick

That reminds me of my in-laws. They have a TV that lets you label the channels. They labeled the NBC affiliate "SEIN", for "Seinfeld" (in fact, it's still labeled that way to this day).

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Posted by: loubob57

That executive is right up there with a Navy Admiral in the twenties that said "I can forsee no use for airplanes in the fleet".

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Posted by: NoteTaker

How can I get a job like Leenie Ruben has that requires vision aka chief strategic officer at Next-Research and say "I have never heard of PVRs, and moreover, I'm not interested in learning more."
How does one have vision without knowledge and an open mind?

He should be replaced and his bank account should be checked to see if there are any funny deposits.

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Posted by: mostman

quote:
Originally posted by NoteTaker:

How does one have vision without knowledge and an open mind?

Don't believe everything you read. This guy is obviously full of it. There is no network exec anywhere in this country that hasn't heard of TiVo or Replay or Ultimate. It is totally impossible. Either he is flat out full of sh*t or the article is full of sh*t. I wouldn't doubt the latter since all his numbers are WAY off.
-Mike

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Posted by: SleepyBob

"The study finds that 47 percent of study respondents have TiVo and 35 percent have ReplayTV."

"I'm surprised at that. Estimates I'd seen last year had Tivo at 2-3 times Replay and I'd assumed the gap was widening since Replay restructured and went into stealth mode."

I'm sure the gap is still widening: remember, it's 47% of study respondents have TiVo, not 47% of PVR owners have TiVo. The wording implies that this was not a random sampling, but rather an open invite questionnaire, sort of like those 1-900 voting numbers on Big Brother. I wonder if this study is the result of that banner ad that ran on AVSForums for a while?

Posted by: NoteTaker

quote:
Originally posted by mostman:
Don't believe everything you read. This guy is obviously full of it. There is no network exec anywhere in this country that hasn't heard of TiVo or Replay or Ultimate. It is totally impossible. Either he is flat out full of sh*t or the article is full of sh*t. I wouldn't doubt the latter since all his numbers are WAY off.
-Mike

It reminds me of the tobacco execs that sat in front of congress saying tobacco is not addictive.

How to get to the top of a company... lie and cheat.
Oh well, what goes around comes around.

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Posted by: DBCooper

quote:
Originally posted by mostman:
Don't believe everything you read. This guy is obviously full of it. There is no network exec anywhere in this country that hasn't heard of TiVo or Replay or Ultimate.

It wasn't a network executive, it was "a senior executive at one of the nation's premier advertising agencies." I can believe it. Ad agencies are top heavy with "senior executives" who can't find the back of their head with a baseball bat.

Posted by: Seattle

quote:
Originally posted by tivolovr:
I bumped across this and thought I'd share. Especially read the last paragraph ... head in sand, anyone?

I have TIVO and DDS and never know the channel. I know the approximate locations of the networks.

I've been on vacation for a couple of weeks and have a whole Tivo full of programs to watch http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

Seattle
(729)

Posted by: arjay

quote:
Originally posted by DrStrange:

These numbers are weird.
I'm confused. I hate incomplete data.

I was hoping for something that would shut arjay up.

Grrrr. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif After looking at those numbers the lesson to be learned is don't trust numbers from any poll. Especially polls based on sampling techniques.

The whole point of my position is no one really knows.

The truth may be hidden (as far as concerns TiVo) in the data collected by TiVo in the aggregate. That data is (fortunately, for other reasons) unavailable as it pertains to individual users.

The question will really be answered by future sales numbers. Dishplayer II (er, Ultimate TV), Dishplayer, and the other Dish PVR products both current and future are not really designed for and are not best utilized by the total timeshift viewing paradigm.

You made mention of UTV's (and DP's) "Remind me" option in this thread stating; "I think UTV can remind you when a show is coming on and optionally turn to that channel, but not record the show. I'm not sure why that's a big whoop myself in a PVR but I've seen a few people here with cable boxes that do it request Tivo add it." Obviously that feature is useful when watching in "real time"

It'll be interesting to see how many of each brand are sold or given away. Dish definitely has an easier job than UTV/TiVo because they gain revenue if they place their machines at cost or below. UTV/TiVo don't have that advantage. (Although they could if they and DirecTV could strike the right deal.)

Another TiVo sales impediment is it (in both its models) is the only machine besides ReplayTV which requires a connection to a phone line. (Until it reappears in a cable box incarnation or Panasonic totally shifts gears ReplayTV [the brand you love to hate; er, point out the shortcomings of http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif] no longer garners a significant market share.)

A point to remember about PVR's is besides being recorders they're also receivers. Usage patterns may be determined by features which a particular product offers. It's definitely to TiVo's advantage to promote the "freedom" that its prime specialty "new paradigm" VOD mode of watching offers much as it's to UTV's (and Dish's) advantage to push "interactivity" and Web browsing.

I just wanna' watch TV without worrying about the proper technique. I kinda' know what works for me.

(Does anyone offer a course in Comparitive Television Viewing Methodologies--Exploring the Paradigms for the New Century.)

BTW, I just scarfed up a cheap digital (gasp) VCR. I'd rather have a DVD-R but for $250. I'll compromise. I won't get the convenience but should get the picture quality.

[This message has been edited by arjay (edited 08-05-2001).]

Posted by: DrStrange

quote:
Originally posted by arjay:
You made mention of UTV's (and DP's) "Remind me" option in this thread stating; "I think UTV can remind you when a show is coming on and optionally turn to that channel, but not record the show. I'm not sure why that's a big whoop myself in a PVR...". Obviously that feature is useful when watching in "real time"

It's not obvious to me. Setting the show up to record does the same thing the reminder does plus it actually records it, making it possible to watch later should you find yourself unexpectedly unavailable when it's on. Recording it doesn't preclude watching it in real time if you like. Not recording it can eliminate the possibility of watching it later, and I don't see the benefit to that.

quote:
Another TiVo sales impediment is it (in both its models) is the only machine besides ReplayTV which requires a connection to a phone line.

Doesn't UTV? Doesn't every DTV receiver whether it's a PVR or not? Anyway I really really doubt that the phone line is gonna be a deal breaker for anyone who can get past all the other, bigger reasons people don't buy a PVR. "Sure I understand exactly what it'll do for me, I can afford $400, have no problem with the monthly fee, can hook it into my A/V setup no problem...WHAT? It has to be connected to a PHONE JACK? Forget it bub, that's where I draw the line!" I don't think so.

Posted by: pjenkins

quote:
Originally posted by DrStrange:
Doesn't UTV? Doesn't every DTV receiver whether it's a PVR or not? Anyway I really really doubt that the phone line is gonna be a deal breaker for anyone who can get past all the other, bigger reasons people don't buy a PVR. "Sure I understand exactly what it'll do for me, I can afford $400, have no problem with the monthly fee, can hook it into my A/V setup no problem...WHAT? It has to be connected to a PHONE JACK? Forget it bub, that's where I draw the line!" I don't think so.

actually, UTV does not require the phone line beyond the initial authorization unless you want to watch pay-per-view movies.

as for the phone line issue, I know two people who didn't buy a PVR because of that very issue, until I told them about the wireless extenders at Radio Shack. They didn't have a phone line anywhere near their TV and didn't realize that RS had something that could help them. I don't doubt that had I not told them about the phone extension capability, they would not have bought Tivos. [both bought standalone Tivos - both cable users]

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Paul

Posted by: MikeCG

".......Given the buzz in recent months about the paradigm-changing nature of the new devices, Leenie Ruben, chief strategic officer, Next-Research, drew an interesting reaction when she recently approached a senior executive at one of the nation's premier advertising agencies about the PVR study. The executive said he had never heard of PVRs, and moreover, he wasn't interested in learning more.#"

It's called the "Head in the Sand (or Elsewhere) Syndrome."

[This message has been edited by MikeCG (edited 08-05-2001).]

Posted by: arjay

quote:
Originally posted by DrStrange:

Originally posted by arjay:
You made mention of UTV's (and DP's) "Remind me" option in this thread stating; "I think UTV can remind you when a show is coming on and optionally turn to that channel, but not record the show. I'm not sure why that's a big whoop myself in a PVR...". Obviously that feature is useful when watching in "real time"

It's not obvious to me. Setting the show up to record does the same thing the reminder does plus it actually records it, making it possible to watch later should you find yourself unexpectedly unavailable when it's on. Recording it doesn't preclude watching it in real time if you like. Not recording it can eliminate the possibility of watching it later, and I don't see the benefit to that.

You don't like the feature. I understand. My point however is the feature relates to watching TV in realtime. I have the remind feature on my DP and use it. I don't want to record everything I watch. I want to record specific things I choose. Of course everything does get temporarily recorded to Dish's ample (and UTV's less ample) buffer from which it can be retrieved and taped if something unusually significant happens.

quote:
Another TiVo sales impediment is it (in both its models) is the only machine besides ReplayTV which requires a connection to a phone line.

Doesn't UTV?

No.

quote:

Doesn't every DTV receiver whether it's a PVR or not?

Only for PPV and multiple receivers on an account.

quote:

Anyway I really really doubt that the phone line is gonna be a deal breaker for anyone who can get past all the other, bigger reasons people don't buy a PVR. "Sure I understand exactly what it'll do for me, I can afford $400, have no problem with the monthly fee, can hook it into my A/V setup no problem...WHAT? It has to be connected to a PHONE JACK? Forget it bub, that's where I draw the line!" I don't think so.

Reality Mode: Check this out. The 13th post down was in response to my earlier question in post 6. In part:

"I have no phone line near the unit (actually I no longer have a conventional land line), and since the UTV gets ALL of it's guide info from the satellite dish, I wouldn't have to worry about a phone line."

This is an example of TiVo's strength being used against it. TiVo is concerned about security issues in ways that other PVR companies are not (or don't have to be) and TiVo is the only PVR company to upload viewer information (used in the aggregate of course.) These unique TiVo requirements increase the costs of operating its service and make the service a li'l less accessible for some potential users.

[This message has been edited by arjay (edited 08-05-2001).]

Posted by: DrStrange

I didn't know a phone line was optional for UTV and DTV receivers in general, thanks for the correction.

Given that UTV doesn't need a phone line, that's something of an advantage. Though do that many people get DTV then forego the ability to order PPV by leaving the phone connection off?

quote:
Originally posted by arjay:
TiVo is the only PVR company to upload viewer information (used in the aggregate of course.)

That I know is wrong. From Replays privacy policy:

quote:
Once your ReplayTV digital video recorder is set up and registered, it collects certain Anonymous Viewing Data, such as which programs you record, which features you use, and other similar data about your use of the ReplayTV Service. [...] The ReplayTV digital video recorder stores this Anonymous Viewing Data on its hard drive under an automatically generated identification number that will not be linked to your name or your other Personal Information without your permission. During the nightly download of your TV schedule, the collected information is transmitted to ReplayTV and is anonymously stored in a secure server and is not associated with any Personal Information.

And unlike Tivo, with Replay...

quote:
At present, users also cannot opt-out of the collection of Anonymous Viewing Data.

Posted by: pjenkins

quote:
Originally posted by DrStrange:
I didn't know a phone line was optional for UTV and DTV receivers in general, thanks for the correction.

Given that UTV doesn't need a phone line, that's something of an advantage. Though do that many people get DTV then forego the ability to order PPV by leaving the phone connection off?

[/QUOTE]
i do http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif although occasionally (once or twice a year), i'll order a PPV boxing match, but rarely do we order PPV movies. (always rent DVDs, can't stand the loss in quality http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif)

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Paul

Posted by: arjay

quote:
Originally posted by DrStrange:

I didn't know a phone line was optional for UTV and DTV receivers in general, thanks for the correction.

Given that UTV doesn't need a phone line, that's something of an advantage. Though do that many people get DTV then forego the ability to order PPV by leaving the phone connection off?

I have my phone line connected because in my set-up it isn't a hassle.

More people, especially techy people, are opting out of wired phone lines these days. I've read several past posts where people were commenting about a wired phone line being a hassle for them as they no longer had that service.

That's another "new paradigm" I won't adapt. Talk about the potential privacy issue! Wired telephony is not perfectly secure of course but it's by far the most secure common communication device we have at our disposal.

I never order PPV though. IMHO it's way overpriced. I'd just as soon not have to have a gadget wired to the phoneline if possible. (Except the telephone, of course, AND this dadgum computer.)

quote:
Originally posted by arjay:
TiVo is the only PVR company to upload viewer information (used in the aggregate of course.)

That I know is wrong. From Replays privacy policy:

Once your ReplayTV digital video recorder is set up and registered, it collects certain Anonymous Viewing Data, such as which programs you record, which features you use, and other similar data about your use of the ReplayTV Service. [...] The ReplayTV digital video recorder stores this Anonymous Viewing Data on its hard drive under an automatically generated identification number that will not be linked to your name or your other Personal Information without your permission. During the nightly download of your TV schedule, the collected information is transmitted to ReplayTV and is anonymously stored in a secure server and is not associated with any Personal Information.

And unlike Tivo, with Replay...
At present, users also cannot opt-out of the collection of Anonymous Viewing Data.

Curses! I knew (most of) that. I wasn't thinking. (Actually I've [hopefully temporarily] kinda' counted ReplayTV out of the current competition. That's why I wasn't thinking.)

I still like my dumb ol' ReplayTV's (got that spare I'm not using) and at the very least they'll become collectors' items. Hope not!

Psst. I got the following in a spam email. Now I can become a "Dr" too:

From:

Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 16:56:47 -0400 (EDT)
To:
Subject: Dr.(Your_Name)_Ph.D

A University Diploma is waiting for you. Obtain a prosperous future, money earning power, and the admiration of all.

Select your field of study from business, computers, engineering, education, the sciences, liberal arts, fine arts, social sciences, history, literature, languages, or any other discipline.

No required tests, classes, books, or interviews.

All levels of diplomas awarded - including bachelors, masters, PhD's, and MBA's.

Diplomas from prestigious non-accredited universities based on your present knowledge and life experience.

Open enrollment means that you are already accepted into this unique program.

Someone is always waiting to take your call - 24 hours a day, 7 days a week including weekends. All you have to do is call to insure your future!

1 - 212 - 214 - 0669

All calls kept strictly confidential.

But I already awarded you a degree in Comparisonolgy. Why not just award myself a degree in something? Of course those guys from the email School of Hard Knocks probably include a snazzy piece of paper to prove it! http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif

Posted by: LordJohnWhorfin

I don't understand the point of a "remind" feature on TiVo.
It only makes sense if your recorder has poor space management (FIFO-only, for instance) and you don't want to use up valuable space with a low-priority show, instead relying on the live buffer.
On Tivo, programming such a recording with a low "Save until" value will accomplish the same thing with the added benefit of making the show easier to find later, since it will be labeled instead of buried somewhere in the live buffer.

Posted by: arjay

quote:
Originally posted by LordJohnWhorfin:
I don't understand the point of a "remind" feature on TiVo.
It only makes sense if your recorder has poor space management (FIFO-only, for instance) and you don't want to use up valuable space with a low-priority show, instead relying on the live buffer.
On Tivo, programming such a recording with a low "Save until" value will accomplish the same thing with the added benefit of making the show easier to find later, since it will be labeled instead of buried somewhere in the live buffer.

I agree with you. TiVo really is designed for VOD total timeshifting. Using it for a receiver only compromises it a lot. The "remind" feature is not appropriate for TiVo.

Dishplayer and UTV use FIFO. I wish they offered SUID but they don't. I fault UTV more than DP for this 'cause DP was the inexpensive "learning" model while UTV is expensive. (I didn't subscribe to DP's PTV service when it cost $10. a month.)

If I'm watching TV in realtime I'm not concerned with disc management though. If DP tunes to a channel I've asked it to that's what I want. The "remind" feature is very useful for those machines which are not designed for VOD presentation of everything. Even a long buffer lasts only for the better part of a day. If I set a program for "remind" I don't expect to watch it again.

Being saved to buffer is merely a way which something can be checked on if necessary OR if something noteworthy but completely unexpected (like the Challenger tragedy, Kennedy assasination, Pearl Harbor, Second Coming, Alien invasion, etc. occurs.

Posted by: HTH

There's the quality issue to be concerned about. Someone with a 14hr. TiVo may not be able to record a whole tennis match, even at Basic Quality, but the Live TV buffer is always at Best Quality (save when you've interrupted a lower quality suggestion and haven't changed the channel or started another recording yet). Reminder tuning, and especially reserved tuning (which only uses the live buffer but which turns off suggestion recording for the duration of the program rather than having the user turn it off and remember to turn back on manually) would be useful.

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Does anyone make cheap 5" VGA monitors?

Posted by: LordJohnWhorfin

This underlines how important it is for TiVo to explain what makes them better. On a comparison chart, "remind" and "30 second skip" are two less checkmarks in the TiVo column. That's plenty more opportunity for a spiffed salesguy to sway an uninformed customer to the competition.