TiVo Community Forums Archives - TiVo getting the boot?

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TiVo getting the boot?
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Posted by: recoil47

What does everyone think of this?

NDS trying to work a deal with DirecTV

Posted by: midas

This has been rumored since the day Rupert got control of DirecTV. Ruperts strategy is to put a DVR in every household. That DVR will not be Tivo. But that doesn't mean that Tivo will not remain an option for those willing to pay a premium price for a better product.

Posted by: pkscout

While the article has today's date, this is *really* old news. I don't think this will affect the TiVo/DTV relationship much, if at all. It is possible that NDS could make a low end DVR so that DirecTV could provide a free DVR to every subscriber, but I think they'll keep the TiVo for higher end users and as an upgrade enticement for folks not happy with the free DVR.

Posted by: herdfan

quote:
"We are competing with TiVo," said NDS Chief Executive Abe Peled, who said that DirecTV may at some point offer its subscribers a choice of DVR service, perhaps based on price. "We think our technology is more operator-friendly."

On what planet? I have seen the demo for the Skybox and while it leaves most cable PVR's in the dust, its not a TiVo.

Posted by: pkscout

quote:
Originally posted by herdfan
On what planet? I have seen the demo for the Skybox and while it leaves most cable PVR's in the dust, its not a TiVo.

No, no. They meant for the people operating the network and the business. Why would you think they would make it easy for the customer. :D

Posted by: midas

quote:
Originally posted by herdfan
On what planet? I have seen the demo for the Skybox and while it leaves most cable PVR's in the dust, its not a TiVo.

It very well could be more operator friendly. My old Dishplayer was much more operator friendly than the Tivo is. Of course it also had a feature set of about ZERO. It's pretty easy to make something user friendly that barely does anything.

Posted by: MighTiVo

A couple other threads on the same story:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-v...threadid=172153
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-v...threadid=172198

Posted by: jautor

Actually, on TiVo's earnings conference call back in 1Q, Mike Ramsey said they had the deal for the "low cost DVR" in the bag. I think his exact words were "it's a lock".

Given the major components are going to be the same in all D* DVR designs (a hard drive, a CPU, DirecTV tuner, etc.), TiVo could certainly make one cheap enough for D* to subsidize to the point of "zero cost to the consumer".

I'd guess the "free DVR" would have one tuner, and a 40GB drive. Probably runs TiVo Basic. Oh - you can upgrade to TiVo TiVo (so nice you have to say it twice :) ) for $4.99/month. Oh, you want two tuners, just buy the $99 model instead. etc. etc.

I don't see why people think D* would move away from TiVo, even at the low end. They have a proven revenue stream in the $4.99/month fee that no one complains about (ok, mostly...), and why wouldn't they want to enable that stream on the "free" box, too???

Oh, yeah, and customers with TiVo stick with DirecTV. Period.

Jeff

Posted by: herdfan

quote:
Originally posted by jautor
Oh, yeah, and customers with TiVo stick with DirecTV. Period.

Good point! Why would D* want to send TiVo packing? If they cancel the agreement, TiVo would be forced to attempt to partner up with a cable company in order to survive. D* could then possibly lose customers back to cable so that people could have their TiVo.

Posted by: jautor

I will state as fact that if DirecTV were to actually drop TiVo, and someone else (cable, WiMAX, Dish, whomever) picks up a dual-tuner HD TiVo - I will take my money and run to them...

Posted by: fredfa

The problem, jautor, is that if you wanted to get your new cable Tivo, you would have to live in an area served by the cable company that, preumably, signed the Tivo deal.

Posted by: tarix

quote:
Originally posted by jautor
I will state as fact that if DirecTV were to actually drop TiVo, and someone else (cable, WiMAX, Dish, whomever) picks up a dual-tuner HD TiVo - I will take my money and run to them...

If Tivo and VOOM were to hook up I would be running to them in no time. No need to even wait for DTV to drop Tivo. :)

Posted by: michael saunders

Threads like this make me question the wisdom of buying an HD Tivo. I would hate to be left with a $1000 dollar 250GB hard drive after, say, a year or even two.

Posted by: tarix

quote:
Originally posted by michael saunders
Threads like this make me question the wisdom of buying an HD Tivo. I would hate to be left with a $1000 dollar 250GB hard drive after, say, a year or even two.

I have faith that the cost of the unit minus the price I can sell it for on Ebay is more than worth however long I use it.

Posted by: ChrisW6ATV

There is a local store selling SD DirecTivos for $80, and a sign there said 'free for new customers'... how can the NDS box be 'cheaper' that that?

Also, isn't DirecTV in the process of moving away from access cards supplied by NDS?

Posted by: Griffon

quote:
Originally posted by herdfan
Good point! Why would D* want to send TiVo packing? If they cancel the agreement, TiVo would be forced to attempt to partner up with a cable company in order to survive. D* could then possibly lose customers back to cable so that people could have their TiVo.

Well to be fair Tivo has been trying to get in with the cable companies since day one, it's the cable companies giving the cold shoulder. So far D*TV is the only provider, correct me I'm wrong, to ink a deal.

Posted by: rogo

quote:
Originally posted by ChrisW6ATV
There is a local store selling SD DirecTivos for $80, and a sign there said 'free for new customers'... how can the NDS box be 'cheaper' that that?

Also, isn't DirecTV in the process of moving away from access cards supplied by NDS?

Um, the $80 and $99 and $49 price is subsidized, you know?

Posted by: theratpatrol

quote:
Originally posted by pkscout
I don't think this will affect the TiVo/DTV relationship much, if at all.

Thats what they said about UTV, and look what happened to it. :D

Posted by: recoil47

Good to hear TiVo wont be going anywhere. :)

Posted by: swsotd

quote:
Originally posted by ChrisW6ATV
There is a local store selling SD DirecTivos for $80, and a sign there said 'free for new customers'... how can the NDS box be 'cheaper' that that?

It could be cheaper than that by not having a monthly fee (which DirecTV collects in order to pass a per-subscriber fee on to TiVo). I still say the same thing could be accomplished more elegantly with TiVo Basic.

Posted by: old7

I am with DirecTV because of TiVo. I would leave them because of TiVo too.

Currently we have 6 DirecTiVos, I love the DirecTV and TiVo combination, but if DirecTV cancels the deal with TiVo and I can get my dual tuner TiVo else where I will go where TiVo is.

-Old7

Posted by: JTAnderson

quote:
Originally posted by ChrisW6ATV
Also, isn't DirecTV in the process of moving away from access cards supplied by NDS?

Not likely under the new regime.

Posted by: bkdtv

quote:
Um, the $80 and $99 and $49 price is subsidized, you know?

A new PVR product will be released at $300, and someone will say its "overpriced" or "they are making a huge profit" because look, "the Tivo is only $49 at Circuit City." "These boxes are cheap to manufacturer...the only major cost is the hard drive." It's ludicrous.

The Broadcom MPEG decoder in the DirecTivo alone costs $50 in 10,000 unit quantities. The dual QPSK demod about $20. Then there's the cost of the logic board, memory, hard drive, remote, chassis, cables, assembly, packaging, software, support, marketing, and the R&D.

It was reported last year that DirecTV was subsidizing every Tivo sold by $200-$250. It may be less now ($150?), but DirecTV is still losing money on every Tivo sold.

Posted by: Ed Campbell

Having been a salesman-type for 30 years, I rely a lot on really listening to the answers I get to questions. I know that what I'm hearing -- often means the answer is as much as I'm allowed to learn, so far. So, I just called DirecTV and got transferred to the "DVR Specialty Group".

That was worth a chuckle on its own. And I deliberately teased the tech I got to -- about it.

Anyway, my questions all dealt with increased capabilities now that the HR10-250 was starting to roll-out. With this added to the mix, what were the possibilities of a few things I want -- rolling out to subscribers?

I asked about 4.x software, TiVo-to-Go solutions, the USB ports [etc.] being activated for communications and HMO [via wireless or whatever]. What was significant to me wasn't that the answer to each question was, "we plan on upgrades utilizing [the question] within a year."

What was significant to me is that the TiVo CSR was absolutely aware of each issue and the demand for these solutions -- and was allowed to tell me that these solutions were in the works to be enabled.

Yeah, that could be clutching at straws. I'll call back every 3 months or so and see if there are any changes. But, I've been out here, messing around w/DTV for about 11 years, now. I'll survive a while longer.

Posted by: rogo

"The Broadcom MPEG decoder in the DirecTivo alone costs $50 in 10,000 unit quantities. "

Yeah? I don't think that's right. Can you show me some info?

Curious,
Mark

Posted by: bkdtv

Unfortunately, Broadcom doesn't list all their older press releases online. However, if you search news sites, you'll find that the Series2 was announced to use the Broadcom BCM702x MP@HL decoder (mentioned here, specs here), the same series chip in the Dish Network 721 and 921. It became available in quantity 1Q 2001.

This chip was originally announced at $50 in 10,000 unit quantities, as you can see right here. Its price may have fallen some since then, but Echostar (Dave Kummer?) claimed they were still paying "about $50" shortly before the 921 was released.

Earlier this year, Dish begun to phase out the 721; its replacement is the 522 PVR, which is a redesign based based on the newer, more-integrated BCM7320 (specs here). Unlike the BCM702x, it's a MP@ML decoder, so it lacks HDTV capability, but it integrates more functionality on-chip, including dual QPSK demods, a MIPS64 CPU, and IDE controller. According to the press release, the BCM7320 costs $60 in 10k quantities. It saves the cost of the dual QPSK demods, which run $18-$20 (or more) when purchased separately in 10,000 unit quantities. I am a bit surprised that DirecTV hasn't redesigned the DirecTivo using this chip.

Broadcom has a virtual monopoly on dual PVR hardware, so it's not like Tivo, Dish, Motorola, or Scientific Atlanta have many alternatives.

Posted by: kyungkim

DirecTivo was the only factor that made me swicth from dtv from dish. Dish was cheaper, had slightly better pq on most of the sd channels and offered mor hd back in the day. I had both services and the directivo in the bedroom was the single thing my wife was NOT going to give up if we switched.

I dont understand why why dtv doesnt play up the tivo angle more, its really the ace up their sleeves. The best feature of tivo is the dual tuner functionality, and afaik, dtv is the only one that has it.
K

Posted by: ChrisW6ATV

quote:
Originally posted by rogo
Um, the $80 and $99 and $49 price is subsidized, you know?

Yes... as would be the price of any box built by NDS or anyone else. Hughes itself makes the majority of DirecTivos, so a change to NDS, it seems, would just be moving from one Murdoch division to another, except of course for the loss of true Tivo service.

Posted by: JfNebraska

Someone should start a petition to Directv, and collect the names of all those who will leave if TiVo leaves.

I am certainly one. I live in a place where Comcast offers all the HD locals and is cheaper than Directv. If TiVo were available with Comcast, I'd switch, and if Directv dropped TiVo, I'd switch. If Directv and TiVo continue to be exclusive partners, I'll be a Directv customer forever.

I'd guess thousands of customers (probably the majority of people with a DirecTiVo) feel the same way.

Posted by: DLiquid

quote:
Originally posted by old7
I am with DirecTV because of TiVo. I would leave them because of TiVo too.

Ditto. I switched to DirecTV mainly because I could get a cooler TiVo with DirecTV than I could with cable. If DirecTV ever drops TiVo, they lose me as a customer right away.

Posted by: slocko

i shudder at the thought of being without a tivo!!!!

Posted by: Charles R

quote:
Originally posted by slocko
i shudder at the thought of being without a tivo!!!!

I had a Tivo for several years (well the SAT-T60 is still in the closet) and when I upgraded my TV to HD I canceled TiVo. Just seemed silly to pay for DirecTV locals, an additional receiver and the TiVo fee for the couple of times a week I used it.

Sure I miss it once in a while though your viewing habits simply change and not necessarily for the worse. I miss it so little that I'm still debating if I want the HD version... as others have stated cable's inferior version seems to do the job.

Posted by: kidjay

Originally posted by ChrisW6ATV
Also, isn't DirecTV in the process of moving away from access cards supplied by NDS?

quote:
Originally posted by JTAnderson
Not likely under the new regime.

The answer to that is no, read below

March 16, 2004: NDS, a News Corporation company and leading provider of technology solutions for digital pay-TV, and DIRECTV, Inc., provider of the leading digital multichannel television service in the United States, announced today that they have signed a six-year agreement for NDS to provide its VideoGuard� conditional access system and services to support the DIRECTV pay-TV service.

Posted by: DLiquid

quote:
Originally posted by Charles R
I had a Tivo for several years (well the SAT-T60 is still in the closet) and when I upgraded my TV to HD I canceled TiVo. Just seemed silly to pay for DirecTV locals, an additional receiver and the TiVo fee for the couple of times a week I used it.

I think you are probably in the minority here. My guess is that most of us with both SD TiVos and an HD receiver have been using our TiVos even for stuff we could watch live in HD. I know people who haven't upgraded to HD yet with the only reason being that they didn't want to give up TiVo (or Replay :eek: ).

I just don't really have the time to watch a lot of stuff live. Who has 8 hours on a Sunday to watch two football games? Not me, even when those games are in HD. With TiVo I can watch them both in 3 hours. Now I can finally unite TiVo and HD so I no longer have to make the choice.

Posted by: jsmjr

quote:
Originally posted by jautor
I don't see why people think D* would move away from TiVo, even at the low end. They have a proven revenue stream in the $4.99/month fee that no one complains about (ok, mostly...), and why wouldn't they want to enable that stream on the "free" box, too???

Forgive my newbie ignorance, but as a long-time stand-alone TiVo user who only recently converted to D*TV, I am unfamiliar with the pricing schemes for the combo models. (I did not get a D*TiVo unit because I was waiting for HDTiVo.)

Do I understand correctly that D*TiVo users do NOT pay the usual TiVo subscription fee (monthly or lifetime), but instead pay the usual D*TV receiver fee, which also functions to cover the subscription fee for any receiver that contains TiVo functionality?

Or do D*TiVo users pay a monthly amount above the usual receiver fee?

Thanks.

Posted by: rogo

quote:
Originally posted by ChrisW6ATV
Yes... as would be the price of any box built by NDS or anyone else. Hughes itself makes the majority of DirecTivos, so a change to NDS, it seems, would just be moving from one Murdoch division to another, except of course for the loss of true Tivo service.

You are still missing the point.

You said, "How could it be cheaper than $89?"

Well, if the subsidy on Tivos is $200 and the subsidies on Skyboxes is $100, it's cheaper.

Posted by: tarix

quote:
Originally posted by DLiquid
I think you are probably in the minority here. My guess is that most of us with both SD TiVos and an HD receiver have been using our TiVos even for stuff we could watch live in HD. I know people who haven't upgraded to HD yet with the only reason being that they didn't want to give up TiVo (or Replay :eek: ).

I actually had my HD receiver long before my Tivo. I finally got a Tivo when a friend of mine demo'd his new toy and mentioned that a future software upgrade was going to allow for dual tuners. Since my work schedule prevents me from watching prime-time TV I quickly became addicted to my Tivo.

Until a few weeks ago my HD receiver had only been hooked up for the NFL playoffs and super bowl. Now I'm using it to test my OTA signals in preparation for the HR10-250.

For me the convenience of watching TV on my schedule vastly outweighs the quest for HD picture quality. Can't wait to eat my cake though!

Posted by: Crash_Corrigan

If the D* Tivo is your only D* STB, you pay $4.99 for the DVR service in addition to your D* programming subscription. You don't pay TIVO's lifetime charge or $12/month charge that owners of standalone TIVOs pay directly to TIVO. And, that DVR charge is waived if you subscribe to D*'s most expensive programming package, Total Choice Premiere.

If you have more than one D* STB, you also pay a $4.99 mirroring charge like you do for any additional STB. However, you only pay one $4.99 DVR charge per month and it's good for as many D*Tivos as you care to own.

When I swap out my E86 HD STB for an HD Tivo, my monthly cost won't go up and I'll be able to record 4 channels (2 in HD and 2 in SD) at any given time since I'll be keeping my SD D* Tivo too. That will be sweet.

Posted by: bkdtv

quote:
If the D* Tivo is your only D* STB, you pay $4.99 for the DVR service in addition to your D* programming subscription.

I'll just add that reportedly $2.00 of that $4.99/mo fee goes to Tivo.

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