TiVo Community Forums Archives - Poll - Ebay Tivos

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Poll - Ebay Tivos - Right or Wrong?
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Posted by: danielhart

Seems to be some disagrement on this topic, so:

Posted by: NJChris

I dont see much disagreement in the poll. :)

Posted by: dswallow

I don't think it should be stopped as in not permitting it; I just think that's is disappointing to see people capitalizing on it intentionally; if they didn't want it, and knew before they took delivery that they didn't want it, I'd rather have seen to go to the next person in whatever line they were in.

So I can't pick any of your options. Because each implies something I don't mean.

Posted by: litzdog911

Judging from the results so far it looks like very few people have any moral issues with selling HiDef Tivo's on eBay.

Posted by: dswallow

quote:
Originally posted by litzdog911
Judging from the results so far it looks like very few people have any moral issues with selling HiDef Tivo's on eBay.

... anonymously... :p

Posted by: NJChris

So, some folks out there saw a demand for the HD Tivo and pre-ordered and then sold it on Ebay.

How is that immoral?

People would not do that if there weren't people that were willing to buy it. Somone is buying it and that someone is happy to buy it. How is that so wrong?

I see nobody had an issue with people pre-ordering from 4 or 5 different places, thus taking up space that other people here could have gotten onto.

I wanted to do the BB one when it happened but people were pre-ordering like crazy. Nobody thought THAT was wrong, but someone buying one and selling it is?

Double Standards...

Posted by: litzdog911

quote:
Originally posted by dswallow
... anonymously... :p

good point!

Posted by: dswallow

quote:
Originally posted by NJChris
How is that immoral?

As someone who regularly faces concepts of morality being brought up in discussion, allow me to answer... :)

By definition. For those that consider it immoral, at least. I specifically point to #4.

mor·al
adj.

1. Of or concerned with the judgment of the goodness or badness of human action and character: moral scrutiny; a moral quandary.
2. Teaching or exhibiting goodness or correctness of character and behavior: a moral lesson.
3. Conforming to standards of what is right or just in behavior; virtuous: a moral life.
4. Arising from conscience or the sense of right and wrong: a moral obligation.
5. Having psychological rather than physical or tangible effects: a moral victory; moral support.
6. Based on strong likelihood or firm conviction, rather than on the actual evidence: a moral certainty.

im·mor·al
adj.

Contrary to established moral principles.

Posted by: llogan

well I wasn't going to but now I'm seriously considering it....only problem is that I already committed my personal unit as a gift to my girlfriend's parents (haven't given it to them yet, but told the girlfriend I would)...since I'm going to buy at least two more of these things, it'd be nice to defray the additional expense in some way.

Certainly was never my intention when I pre-ordered the unit but seeing the $400+ premium these things are getting, I think I might be stupid not too.

Posted by: GoodSpike

I don't think you can assume that those who bought did so planning on selling on Ebay. Such a plan would assume they knew there'd be a short supply at a point in time where they could put in an order in time to get an early delivery.

I think it's more likely that these are people who like Tivos, but for which $1,000 is a lot of money. For them, being able to sell the HDTivo at a profit, and later pick up one for even $999 (less their profit) would be a significant reduction in price.

For someone who could easily afford it, the profit from Ebay would not be that big of a deal.

Stated differently some people are willing to pay a lot more to get one now. Other people, although lucky enough to be in the first group, are willing to put off their HD Tivo enjoyment in order to have a lower net cost.

Posted by: danielhart

quote:
Originally posted by dswallow
I don't think it should be stopped as in not permitting it; I just think that's is disappointing to see people capitalizing on it intentionally; if they didn't want it, and knew before they took delivery that they didn't want it, I'd rather have seen to go to the next person in whatever line they were in.

So I can't pick any of your options. Because each implies something I don't mean.

Fair enough Doug. If I could add a "Permissible but disappointing" option I would.

I still respectfully disagree with you though. I don't disagree with you being disappointed, that's how you feel and it is your right. But the rest of your opinion has more to do with a value judgement, and I will submit a different perspective on it: If someone knew 2 months ago they were buying it with the intention of selling it at a profit, they were taking a risk that the demand would be there and the supply would be so low. They may have easily predicted the former, but the latter was anyones guess. And if someone had preordered with the intention of keeping it, I doubt they would have sold it because "they decided they didn't want it", they saw an unforseen opportunity and took advantage of it.

Respectfully

Daniel

Posted by: NJChris

Thanks for the definition, Doug. But that really doesn't contain any answer or responses to the double standards this issue brings up.

Who is to judge what is moral or not for selling an item on Ebay? Nobody is forcing ANYONE to buy it.

This whole thing is just silly, IMHO.

Posted by: poolne1

quote:
Originally posted by dswallow
I just think that's is disappointing to see people capitalizing on it intentionally

Doug, I know you are expressing an opinion and not stating a fact, That said, my opinion differs from yours. Buying an HDTivo and reselling it on Ebay is very much like ticket scalping. Ticket scalping is market making. The scalper sells the ticket for a more true market price than the price stated on the ticket and "wealth," in an economic sense, is created. Nobody "likes" scalpers, but they would not exist if willing buyers did not exist. I have gotten concert and sporting event tickets that I could never have gotten but for scalpers. A true market, over time, eliminates the imbalance between supply and demand. Shorter lines (and preorder lists) result.

Posted by: smith13

We are all much dumber now for having read this post.LOL

Posted by: danielhart

quote:
3. Conforming to standards of what is right or just in behavior; virtuous: a moral life.

I think it would be fair to say that in this society, capitalism and free market economics fit within the framework of the collective moral standard.

quote:
4. Arising from conscience or the sense of right and wrong: a moral obligation.

This is a bit tougher of a standard to argue with in the context of this discussion. I will admit that I struggled with my consience more than a bit in my decision to sell (as well as my desire to have both of my Tivos ;) ). I think this definition becomes more about personal values and choice. More of an individual thing. What may be personally immoral to some will be a-ok with others. To me, it was about being straightforward about what I was doing, and selling at a price that made me a nice profit but still allowed me to sleep at night. I would not have felt good about selling one for 2K. But in those cases, my value judgement would point much more at motivations and moralities of the buyer.

respectfully

daniel

Posted by: MNTivoGuy

It is not immoral, but here is my two cents. This forum is designed to be a place for fellow enthusiats to learn and help each other. I learned about rapidsatellite.com from a poster here. I am extremely grateful, and my new toy is coming May 6. The information I learned here was intended to help a fellow enthusiast get his HD TiVo, not to be used so I could profit personally. I think the moral outrage stems not from the use of the free market, but from the use of this forum. We are here to help each other pursue our hobby. When someone takes info here intended to help them in their hobby, and then uses knowledge not to enhance their hobby but to turn a profit, I can see why someone would be offended by that. Is it immoral? I'd say no, but it defeats the purpose of this online community.

Of course, some information posted here is intended to help our wallets. Then it is cool! I have saved $20.00 off of Total Choice Premiere for over a year thanks to this forum!!

Posted by: drober30

quote:
Originally posted by GoodSpike
I don't think you can assume that those who bought did so planning on selling on Ebay. Such a plan would assume they knew there'd be a short supply at a point in time where they could put in an order in time to get an early delivery.

I think it's more likely that these are people who like Tivos, but for which $1,000 is a lot of money. For them, being able to sell the HDTivo at a profit, and later pick up one for even $999 (less their profit) would be a significant reduction in price.

For someone who could easily afford it, the profit from Ebay would not be that big of a deal.

Stated differently some people are willing to pay a lot more to get one now. Other people, although lucky enough to be in the first group, are willing to put off their HD Tivo enjoyment in order to have a lower net cost.

You nailed it on the head!

Posted by: dswallow

quote:
Originally posted by NJChris
Thanks for the definition, Doug. But that really doesn't contain any answer or responses to the double standards this issue brings up.

Who is to judge what is moral or not for selling an item on Ebay? Nobody is forcing ANYONE to buy it.

This whole thing is just silly, IMHO.

But that's what I meant. :) It's in the eye of the beholder. Calling anything moral or immoral is based on the values you ascribe to yourself. And there's nothing wrong with that. Someone can find you immoral on this issue, ormoral on this issue, and it's just that to them. That doesn't mean it should be to you.

There's levels of my "disappointment," too. Someone who decides to sell the unit they wanted because the decide they can wait till later and capitalize on the supply and demand now isn't, in my opinion, as bad as someone who specifically sets out to hoard a number of them in order to capitalize on the supply and demand now. And that person still isn't as bad as an authorized dealer making use of their ability to obtain the units as allocations from distributors doing a similar thing.

Does any of this happening make the world stop spinning? Nope.

Would I mind if DirecTV instituted a policy where a receiver that's purchased must be activated by the authorized dealer who is selling it and transfers to other accounts are not permitted for 12 months? Not at all. I'd absolutely love it if they did so. In fact, that sounds like a good lead in for a letter I needed to write to someone at DirecTV.

:)

Posted by: dswallow

quote:
Originally posted by danielhart
This is a bit tougher of a standard to argue with in the context of this discussion. I will admit that I struggled with my consience more than a bit in my decision to sell (as well as my desire to have both of my Tivos ;) ). I think this definition becomes more about personal values and choice. More of an individual thing. What may be personally immoral to some will be a-ok with others. To me, it was about being straightforward about what I was doing, and selling at a price that made me a nice profit but still allowed me to sleep at night. I would not have felt good about selling one for 2K. But in those cases, my value judgement would point much more at motivations and moralities of the buyer.

Just for the record, I very much enjoyed seeing your auction, and loved the way you spelled it all out. And find your circumstances in selling it to be among the most minor an infraction, hardly worthy of note. Easily compensated for by the amusement I got from reading the auction. :D

Posted by: KCWolfPck

Coming soon to an eBay near you....my 2nd unit that I suprisingly received from Tweeter today. I never cancelled my Tweeter pre-order (March 24th) when I got my HD Tivo back on April 1st. The Fredericksburg store was only supposed to get one in today, but they got 2.....enough for me to get mine that will be up for auction by this weekend.

Obviously.....I have no problem with it and voted accordingly.:D

Posted by: llogan

I just don't see how someone in the specific situation below is 'bad' at all:

Pre-ordered in January with no expectation of reselling unit
Noticed late April/early May units are selling for a premium on eBay
Inclined to sell unit on eBay to help defray cost, which as many have stated (though I don't agree) is really high

I guess I don't want Doug to be disappointed in me. ;)

What I find interesting here though is that I resold quite a number of DTC100s last year and I did the research, found where I could get them and then made them available on eBay, where people paid a 100% premium on my cost.

But see, the people that got them, might not have had any availability of the unit in their area, so I was operating as a distribution channel for getting unused units to somewhere in the country where they could be utilized and being compensated. Is that wrong?

The analogy here might be that someone might not want to be vigilantly checking their local Tweeter or other store and would rather bid on eBay. There's a convenience factor there perhaps (not one that I would easily understand but it's there). Free market behavior as far as I'm concerned.

Posted by: herdfan

quote:
Originally posted by llogan
What I find interesting here though is that I resold quite a number of DTC100s last year and I did the research, found where I could get them and then made them available on eBay, where people paid a 100% premium on my cost.

Same here. Each of my Circuit City's had one. I got one for $139, which I sold for $375 and another for $99 which I sold for $300. Paid for half of my HR10-250.

The $99 one I got had been listed for $199, so I told the guy I would give them $149 for it. The mamager said no. I kept going in a couple of times a week to see if the price had dropped. Well it went from $199 to $99 so I came in and bought it. The guy who rang me up was the one I tried to get him to sell it to me for $149, and you should have seen his face when I told him I was going to ebay it for over $300. They have no clue.

Posted by: keefers

I see no problem with reselling these on ebay, I think what rubs people the wrong way is that when someone does sell their HDTIVO on ebay they then rush back over to this forum and brag about how much they sold it for or that they are going to get another one real soon, before anyone else, and sell that one also. There wouldn't be quite the stir if people just kept that to themselves.

keefers

Posted by: llogan

I wound up reselling about 30 DTC100s at a profit of $200 per unit... you do the math :D

Posted by: danielhart

quote:
Originally posted by dswallow
Just for the record, I very much enjoyed seeing your auction, and loved the way you spelled it all out. And find your circumstances in selling it to be among the most minor an infraction, hardly worthy of note. Easily compensated for by the amusement I got from reading the auction. :D

It was more the thread where the guy said it "makes me sick" that made me feel a bit defensive. As I said, I had my own issues of conscience to deal with. I don't have a problem if someone (like yourself) takes an opposing stance on an issue when it comes across as rational and intelligently thought out....incorrect as they may be:D

And I did have fun writing up that auction........

daniel