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Angel 5/12 Spoilers
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Posted by: pandiva

Was that a good episode or what? Wasn't too happy to see Illryia get her butt kicked. Hope she's the one who takes him out. The preview said that one of the gang will be killed.

Following spoiler is for next weeks series finale episode.

Spoiler Alert! (highlight to read)
Accordring to spoilerfix website both Gunn and Wesley be killed off but the pictures at http://www.mediasharx.com/index.php/news/1845 show Gunn but no Wes

All leading up to the grand finale.:(

Posted by: blueshoo

Don't want to start another "spoiler" thread, but it would be considerate to indicate that your spoiler is for a FUTURE episode, not the one that's the subject of discussion and title of the thread.

Posted by: pandiva

My apologies. I thought it was understood that the spoiler was for the next episode because I was discussing the preview. I put a warning directly above the spoiler. my bad.

Posted by: balboa dave

pandiva, you labeled your spoiler very clearly, marked it correctly, and have nothing to apologize for. Blueshoo stated in another thread: "I tread very carefully to make sure I didn't see anything I didn't want to" and has no one to blame but himself. I read it myself, and I'm certainly not going to take it at face value.

That said, even though I guessed what Angel was up to early on, and I hate that, because I expect the writer's to outmaneuver my guesses, this was a good episode. Very dark, very noble, an insightful take on the morality of the Angel nebulae of the Buffyverse. The stage is set for what could be a great finale.

Posted by: pandiva

I just want to see them kick some Black Thorne booty!

Posted by: Peter000

So did it look like to anyone else that the W&H guy in the last scene could see through the illusion? Like he knew exactly what was really happening inside? It did to me.

It kind of bugs me that they're just introducing the "Black Thorn" society now, as a physical manifestation of the W&H Partners they can strike at. I know the various people in the society have been introduced in other capacities, but I'm feeling the climactic confrontation is a little rushed.

I liked the fact that Angel moved on with werewolf girl without going all Angelus.

It was really hard watching Illyria getting beat on by the W&H guy... I haven't let go of the fact that it's still Fred's body, albeit inhabited by a biatch goddess. I wonder how she'll have a part in the upcoming Battle Apocalypse Royale?

While I'm still enjoying Angel a great deal, I feel like I'm being rushed out the door buy hosts who want to go to bed early.

Posted by: dansee

quote:
Originally posted by Peter000
While I'm still enjoying Angel a great deal, I feel like I'm being rushed out the door by hosts who want to go to bed early.

I have the same feeling, in many ways, but appreciate that the storytelling is still good.

Happily, I don't have the same pit-of-the-gut despair over the writing I felt at the end of "Buffy;" where the mythology had been casually tossed aside, every plot line seemed labored, and the characters had become cardboard cutouts.

I'm actually interested to see where the "Angel" finale will go, sad that the show is being axed at the close of a first-rate season, and a bit excited at the possibility of a couple movies, or longer format presentations in the future.

In all, "Angel" has been a pretty darn good ride this year, and I think the M.E. bunch deserves a lot of credit for the product.

Posted by: AJRitz

I agree - good episode but a bit annoyed that this is the first we've heard of the Black Thorn Society. They should have been dropping innocuous hints about them for half the season. Anyone else find it VERY interesting that the new W&H liason knew the guardian of the Deeper Well and also that the liason could kick Illyria's butt so easily?

Posted by: Rob Helmerichs

quote:
Originally posted by AJRitz
Anyone else find it VERY interesting that the new W&H liason... could kick Illyria's butt so easily?

Not really. He's already been established as being extremely powerful, and she's already been established as being extremely reduced in power (Spike is able to spar with her and survive). Presumably, the senior partners learned with Eve the folly of trying to use mere humans to control Angel & Co.

I was less enamored of Angel's relationship with Hairy. Either he knows there's no chance of true happiness with her, in which case he's leading her on (which strikes me as pretty cruel, considering the obvious depth of her feelings), or he suspects there IS a chance, in which case he's gamling with the human race's future (since his job is stopping apocalypses, and Angelus might not bother).

Posted by: blueshoo

pandiva,

Thanks for editing your post to indicate what the spoiler contains. No hard feelings or anything, just hadn't made the connection that it was about next week's episode before, but with the edit it's very clear.

Posted by: DreadPirateRob

quote:
Originally posted by Medieval Guy
I was less enamored of Angel's relationship with Hairy. Either he knows there's no chance of true happiness with her, in which case he's leading her on (which strikes me as pretty cruel, considering the obvious depth of her feelings), or he suspects there IS a chance, in which case he's gamling with the human race's future (since his job is stopping apocalypses, and Angelus might not bother).

That was my take on it as well. When I first saw them in bed together, realized that Angel had apparently "finished" and was not Angelus (which we already knew could happen based on what happened with Darla a few seasons back), I began to feel a bit badly for the girl, for the reasons you discussed.

I thought it was a good episode, and I agree that the ending left it a little unclear as to whether Hamilton (that's the name for the new W&H liaison, right?) could see through the glammer or not. I suppose we'll find out.

Posted by: billypritchard

Is it that wrong for Angel to sleep with Wolfy, without getting a full Happy while doing it? Can't Angel experience some partial happiness in his life? And how many people in the world can claim they have only had sex with people who've they been "totally happy" to be with?

Did Wes achieve True Happiness with Lilah? Uh, no.

Did Cordy achieve True Happiness with Gru? Uh, no.

Did Spike achieve True Happiness with Buffy? Uh, no.

But those are all examples of main charachters having "relationships", with sex as part of the deal. Why do we hold Angel to a higher standard?

Let the Man have some cake, for gosh sakes!

Posted by: JYoung

I liked this episode except for one thing.
Is Drogan dead now or not?

Posted by: Graymalkin

I think Wolfy's name is Nina. Amazingly enough, they did not have her do a partial-nudity scene in this episode.

Posted by: blueshoo

quote:
Originally posted by JYoung
Is Drogan dead now or not?

It appeared Angel snapped his neck after biting him, so I'd say he's dead. Don't know what that means for the Public Storage facility he managed or how well it works with his 'immortality' gig, though.

Posted by: pandiva

Does anyone remember in the episode where Angel and Illyria were jumping through time (she thought they were going to kill her)? In the episode Wesley was in the lab trying to find a way to help Illyria. Hamilton made some sort of suggestion to Wesely. Could Hamilton have known he was helping them make Illyria much weaker instead of just keeping her stable? Sorry I can't be more specific about the epi. Working from memory here.
Just a thought.

Posted by: LoadStar

quote:
Originally posted by billypritchard
Did Wes achieve True Happiness with Lilah? Uh, no.

Did Cordy achieve True Happiness with Gru? Uh, no.

Did Spike achieve True Happiness with Buffy? Uh, no.

Did Spike achieve True Happiness with Angel? "Well, there was that one time..." in Spike's own words. ;) :D

Posted by: KLB

And so our Heros desend into the fire...

Good episode. The Xbox / Crash Bandicoot sequence was a total HOOT!

I was suprised that Hamilton Baldwin took down Illyria so easily. I knew she was diminished in power but I thought she was still indestructable and mega strong.

The final shot where they pull back through the window and show how it looks from the outside was fantastic. Really well done!

Yeah, the question of whether he could see through the spell or not was on my mind as well. I guess we'll know next week.

AND Joss had better take care of Spike this time around unlike how he screwed him in the Buffy finale!

Posted by: Thaed

Did anyone see Joss in a cameo in this episode? When the Devil guy said something like "We had a really great turnout, all the really evil ones are here." and they panned to 3 people, I think Joss was on the right.

Posted by: lachacg

quote:
Originally posted by blueshoo
It appeared Angel snapped his neck after biting him, so I'd say he's dead. Don't know what that means for the Public Storage facility he managed or how well it works with his 'immortality' gig, though.

Things still bother me.

(1) Angel still killed Drogan. Snapped his pretty-boy neck. And fed on him. That is not the actions of a champion.

(2) Lindsey said that they wouldn't begin to consider him for the black thornes unless he killled/destroyed one of his lieutenants. Well, did he or didn't he have anything to do with Fred? I know he told the gang that he sent the assasin with fake info, but why then did they let him in the circle?

(3) Lindsey came back to get into the circle? Why hide from the Senior Partners then? It's their circle!

(4) How did Eve and Lindsey meet?

So, is Angel really in the Black Thorne circle? Is he telling the gang the truth?

You can interpret the last scene as:

He sees through the spell, and knows that Angel's betrayal of the Black Thorns fits with his plan
He sees through the spell and is suprised
He doesn't see through the spell
He sees through the spell, but is smiling because he knows that Angel is suckering his gang

Posted by: SparkleMotion

Angel was working WITH Drogan, who, champion that he is, sacrificed his already long life for the greater good. This made Angel's deception all the more convincing.

Posted by: Attack

Angel did everything he could to figure out who the Circle of Black Thorne member are, the only way to find out was to become a member. To become a member he used Freds. Since Drogyn can't lie Angel sent an assassin after Drogyn, and told the assassin that he killed Fred and didn't want Drogyn to find the true that is hidden inside The Well. (This was a lie to the assassin ). Drogyn then came to tell Spike this information and then they told the gang. You noticed that when Wesley asking Angel if he killed Fred, Angel just said "I loved Fred". This made Wesley think Angel did kill Fred. After that Angel just had to kill Drogyn for it to seem like he was Evil and become a member of the Circle of Black Thorne

Read the script to this episode Since some of this didn't air it should help.

Posted by: Thaed

Are we sure Drogyn is really dead? After all, he was given eternal life. A neck snap and a little missing blood might not be enough to take this guy out.

Posted by: lachacg

quote:
Originally posted by Attack
You noticed that when Wesley asking Angel if he killed Fred, Angel just said "I loved Fred". This made Wesley think Angel did kill Fred. After that Angel just had to kill Drogyn for it to seem like he was Evil and become a member of the Circle of Black Thorne

Read the script to this episode Since some of this didn't air it should help.

This still doesn't explain Lindsey's comment on "Angel would have to kill one of his lieutenent's for them to consider him". Sure, Wesley believed that, but Wesley believing it didn't matter. It's the Thorne and the senior partners believing it that mattered.

I really liked when Skip explained Cordelia's road to evil and the birth of Conner. That tied up lots of loose ends and past events. Angel's speech didn't have as complete an effect as Skip, and I think it was intended to. That leave me unsatisfied.

Posted by: TiVaholic

I thought the tree guy just had eternal youth, not immortality...And how did the Black Thorn get a hold of him? I must have missed that or something...Did liason guy give him to them?

Posted by: Peter000

quote:
Originally posted by TiVaholic
I thought the tree guy just had eternal youth, not immortality...And how did the Black Thorn get a hold of him? I must have missed that or something...Did liason guy give him to them?

I guess so. And what was with his hair when the Black Thorn guys had him? I didn't even recognize the guy. Did he have his eternal youth taken away from him or something? I must have missed a plot point.

Posted by: dansee

quote:
Originally posted by Peter000
I guess so. And what was with his hair when the Black Thorn guys had him? I didn't even recognize the guy. Did he have his eternal youth taken away from him or something? I must have missed a plot point.

I think that a lot is being crammed into the last couple shows. I don't know about anyone else, but at the beginning of the show, I was wondering if I had somehow missed an episode, because it seemed like they had taken a quantum leap forward with the story.

Like Thaed, however, I'm not entirely convinced that Drogyn is dead.

Posted by: Mike20878

Has anyone else mentioned what a great job Adam Baldwin is doing as Hamilton? :) It's a completely different character for him than the gruff soldier-type characters he usually plays.

As for Nina, won't she still have to have arrangements to lock herself up once a month wherever she's going?