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Joan of Arcadia 5/21 'Silence' *spoilers*
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Posted by: headroll

Am I the first to say WTF!?

Overall an interesting EP. Hopefully the show will know how to go from here.

Was this the Season Finale?

-Roll

Posted by: LoadStar

Yes, this was the season finale. It's a very good thing that the series got picked up for a second season, because if that was the last episode, it would've been very a very dark place to end the series.

Posted by: firerose818

I found the episode very disturbing but it's hard to exactly put a finger on why. I think mostly it was the possibility that Joan might not be talking to God at all - and that would leave me feeling used in a way.

Very interesting episode - it definitely gives you a lot to think about.

-Rose

Posted by: Graymalkin

That very last scene is crucial. God (in the guise of Cute Guy) walks into the room while Joan is asleep and comforts her. That's a definitive statement to us, the viewers, that He's not a figment of her imagination.

Posted by: DancnDude

Wow! What a finale. It'll be very interesting to see where the series goes from here. Joan now has her doubts if she is hallucinating. Also some really strange stuff with the "dark twins", the evil principal, and time stoppage. I really like this show!

Posted by: skanter

quote:
Originally posted by DancnDude
Wow! What a finale. It'll be very interesting to see where the series goes from here. Joan now has her doubts if she is hallucinating. Also some really strange stuff with the "dark twins", the evil principal, and time stoppage. I really like this show!

I thought it was one of the best of the series, which is usually a bit on the saccharine side for my taste. This episode added a bit of darkness and mystery, which are the other side of faith and spirituality.

Posted by: markp99

Wow. Great episode and finale.

Very dark and surreal in comparison to many/all of the other eps. I enjoyed the deeper conflict, emotion and challenge of what we all thought was true...but maybe not...

I was not exactly sure where this story was going until the last moments (I enjoyed that tension!). I was hoping for that ending...God thankfully appears to confirm that the His presence to Joan was not just an illusion, the result of some bad bean dip...or Lyme disease...

The consolation & desolation example and the whole "toe in the water" thing has been such a reality for me in the past several years. The water really is always there...

The ep did leave Joan in a dark place, which should lead to very rich story lines next season! I can't wait!

Way to go Grace and Luke!! :)

Posted by: dr_mal

Best.Joan.Ever.

My take is that the evil twins and the creepy-eyed principal were hallucinations brought on by the lyme disease.

The final scene where God comes by and comforts Joan brought chills (the good kind) to me.

What was the deal with the mother that died and then appeared to William Girardi?

Posted by: headroll

quote:
Originally posted by dr_mal
Best.Joan.Ever.

My take is that the evil twins and the creepy-eyed principal were hallucinations brought on by the lyme disease.

The final scene where God comes by and comforts Joan brought chills (the good kind) to me.

What was the deal with the mother that died and then appeared to William Girardi?

Seems like Joan's Mother and Father are beginning to be touched by God now. Did anyone notice the quick appearence of the coudoroy jacketed God in the waking church scene with Mom?

-Roll

Posted by: Rob Helmerichs

quote:
Originally posted by LoadStar
Yes, this was the season finale. It's a very good thing that the series got picked up for a second season, because if that was the last episode, it would've been very a very dark place to end the series.

While watching it, I got the "Well, we'll never get renewed, so let's go out with a bang" feeling from it. It will be interesting to see where they go from here.

(I also thought the Luke/Grace hook-up was terribly done. That cliche of people explaining why they're wrong for each other as they lean in for a kiss was old before I was born. And I'm older than I look.)

Posted by: jwjody

I thought that the God that appeared in Mom's dream was really God. Specifically because it was the same God that has appeared to Joan before.

I also thought the twins were God because they were telling her to go to the hospital while the mascot that appeared to her during the "time stoppage" was an hallucination. As was "evil principal."

Posted by: Ladd Morse

quote:
Originally posted by skanter
I thought it was one of the best of the series, which is usually a bit on the saccharine side for my taste. This episode added a bit of darkness and mystery, which are the other side of faith and spirituality.

What he said!

My wife and I were discussing how there seems to be a complete avoidance of "the other side". If you believe in God, it seems to me that by definition, you have to believe in the Devil. And unless the Devil is busy elsewhere, assuming that eveyone who speaks to you with that special smile and hand-wave is God seems ripe for disaster.

One of my favorite episodes simply because it did tread new ground.

P.S.
It will be interesting to see which events are chalked up to the Lyme disease

Posted by: Ladd Morse

quote:
Originally posted by dr_mal
What was the deal with the mother that died and then appeared to William Girardi?

My take was formed from the discourse on "consolation and desolation". William asks how long desolation can last. Assuming that it can't last forever, then there must be a beginning of the state of consolation. William being visited by the dead mother (God?) may be the first step into consolation.

Same with the Mom -- perhaps just a brief visit to momentarily break the tight spiral of (grief/dispair/generally running life fast just to keep from drowning) so that she might begin to see that there might be another path.

But what do I know? I'm still in mourning for Wonderfalls, which is the same show only very, different. :(

Posted by: Ladd Morse

quote:
Originally posted by Medieval Guy
(I also thought the Luke/Grace hook-up was terribly done. That cliche of people explaining why they're wrong for each other as they lean in for a kiss was old before I was born.

Agreed. I would have much preferred to have them stomp off in different directions only to have Grace eventually turn and stare at his retreating back with look of vulnerable puzzlement on her face.

Let the proto-relationship stew for a while, not flash into being all at once with such a cliche. The ol' "journey is more important than the destination" philosophy. At least for me, a more intriguing season-ender.

Posted by: Rob Helmerichs

quote:
Originally posted by Ladd Morse
Agreed. I would have much preferred to have them stomp off in different directions only to have Grace eventually turn and stare at his retreating back with look of vulnerable puzzlement on her face.

True. But it wasn't so much the hook-up I minded (if they're going to do it, they have to do it some time, otherwise it becomes stale); it was the way they did it. That was just insulting. They took the lazy way out, and assumed that we are too stupid to notice. And this is a show that generally does NOT take the lazy way out.

Posted by: TonyD79

The last scene reinforces that Joan is really talking to God but so does her mother's dream (Joan is one of his favorite vessels?).

Also, the renewal of the show says so, too. What would they do next year, Dawson's Creek (this show is basically one of those without the God angle).

We will just have some doubt now in Joan's dealings with God. Sounds healthy to me.

Posted by: BeanMeScot

I thought the Ghost Mom was a way to pave a deeper understanding between Joan and her Dad. She is going to have to deal with her emotions about the fact that she thinks God was a hallucination and her Dad is going to have to deal with whatever he makes of the Ghost Mom. If Joan confides in him, it will give him a way to relate to what she is saying. He had a similar experience.

Posted by: markp99

Joan and her Mom's shared Cute God visions will probably be an anchor for Joan next season...

I would prefer that God continue to act thru the adolescent Joan than her parents next season, though seeing adult reaction to such intervention could be interesting.

Posted by: landrumdh

I think god went to mom because being all knowing he knew Joan was going to doubt her conversations and dealings with him.

And as it was put in the church it depends if you want it to be God. I forsee the next few episodes next season we'll Joan in crisis and her mother will help steer her back to god but she will resist.

It was a GREAT episode and a great finale to a new fresh series. I am unsure where I stand in the whole greater power thing, but this show just tugs at me every time :)

Posted by: scooterboy

I was disappointed that Adam gave her the "I believe that you believe it" line, after promising to believe her. I figured if anyone would believe her, it would be Adam - even if one of the symptoms was hallucinations.

Posted by: kmcorbett

quote:
Originally posted by Medieval Guy
True. But it wasn't so much the hook-up I minded (if they're going to do it, they have to do it some time, otherwise it becomes stale); it was the way they did it. That was just insulting. They took the lazy way out, and assumed that we are too stupid to notice. And this is a show that generally does NOT take the lazy way out.

I suspect the whole Luke/Grace subplot has been set up from the beginning to illustrate a major (sub-)theme: the dichotomy of the analytic mind (scientific, rational, closed) and the ecstatic heart (chaotic, emotional, open). This tension, as enacted or embodied in human lives, mirrors the greater struggle between Good and Evil.

Luke and Grace have to meet each other half-way, and that is precisely what they accomplished in that one awkward scene.

I am *not* saying that one character embodies one aspect or another, and that is the interesting point: both characters are seekers, and they may be - for lack of a better phrase - "soul mates".

This season finale was (for me) incredibly satisfying, as almost all major characters have been drawn into this strange world where G*d works through a teenage girl, and - we now see - through her family.

But what part will the older brother play in all this? I am intrigued by the very *lack* of staging of his character at season end. Maybe he's just hanging back while he works through his issues. Maybe his story is not quite ready to come into focus.

/kmc

Posted by: Rob Helmerichs

quote:
Originally posted by kmcorbett
Luke and Grace have to meet each other half-way, and that is precisely what they accomplished in that one awkward scene.

Maybe, but it would be a lot more moving if the EXACT SAME SCENE hadn't been done the EXACT SAME WAY hundreds, if not thousands, of times before. There's an entire genre of movies built around that scene, where two opposites bicker endlessly but ultimately fall in love; that exact scene is the "surprise moment" in EVERY SINGLE ONE of those movies.

It's lazy, stupid writing, and far beneath this show.

Posted by: kmcorbett

quote:
Originally posted by scooterboy
I was disappointed that Adam gave her the "I believe that you believe it" line, after promising to believe her. I figured if anyone would believe her, it would be Adam - even if one of the symptoms was hallucinations.

I think Joan over-reacted, shutting down like that. Of course she has been through the wringer, and she was grasping at straws. (Weird mixed metaphor there, sorry.)

Adam gave her a thoughtful and sincere answer. She wants someone to give her the "final answer", and that isn't going to come from any outside influence.

Hmm, I wonder if this is the deeper significance of Adam's habit of calling Joan "Jane"? It's not a slip of the tongue; he knows her real name. His role is to see Joan in a way that no one else does, and - maybe - he will reenforce or validate her beliefs, but not in a love-is-blind way.

More likely, I'm just reading too much into the whole thing.

I really, really, really like this show.

/kmc

Posted by: markp99

quote:
Originally posted by kmcorbett
Adam gave her a thoughtful and sincere answer. She wants someone to give her the "final answer", and that isn't going to come from any outside influence.

Exactly, God told Joan directly to "look behind her eyes."

Still don't know what the "Learn to see in the dark" comment meant...

Posted by: blueshoo

quote:
Originally posted by markp99
Still don't know what the "Learn to see in the dark" comment meant...

I figured it meant that she should continue to follow the path she's been on recently, even if "He" wasn't there to guide her. To believe even if there's no empirical reason to believe. To have faith.

Posted by: DavidTigerFan

I went around and downloaded this just because of your guy's comments. It was a very well written episode and I have never watched Joan before. I tell ya though...if the two twins were God then He was hella scary. So what was the mascot again?

Posted by: BeanMeScot

quote:
Originally posted by DavidTigerFan
I went around and downloaded this just because of your guy's comments. It was a very well written episode and I have never watched Joan before. I tell ya though...if the two twins were God then He was hella scary. So what was the mascot again?

I think the mascot was a hallucination from the Lyme disease. The twins probably were God. They told her to go to the doctor and they talked in the metaphorical way that he normally does.

Posted by: TreborPugly

quote:
Originally posted by scooterboy
I was disappointed that Adam gave her the "I believe that you believe it" line, after promising to believe her. I figured if anyone would believe her, it would be Adam - even if one of the symptoms was hallucinations.

Nope, That would be unrealistic. Nobody, even someone very faithful, is going to believe such a story the first time. He loves her, and her troubles touch him, but there is no way he would just believe that God was speaking to her right off the bat. And hopefully, there won't be any "prove it" opportunities next season.

To remain true to the theme of this show, each person will have to have an opportunity to find faith that Joan is really speaking to God. But no outright proof. That's not how God is supposed to work.

It makes sense for people to start recognizing that she is different, and does have some unusual insight or moral compass, but it should remain mysterious, and explainable by multiple reasons.

Posted by: betamax

Nobody has mentioned this yet, but the twins reminded me of "The Shining." Really freaky!

Posted by: SnakeEyes

quote:
Originally posted by Medieval Guy
Maybe, but it would be a lot more moving if the EXACT SAME SCENE hadn't been done the EXACT SAME WAY hundreds, if not thousands, of times before. There's an entire genre of movies built around that scene, where two opposites bicker endlessly but ultimately fall in love; that exact scene is the "surprise moment" in EVERY SINGLE ONE of those movies.

It's lazy, stupid writing, and far beneath this show.

Has the scene been done before? yes. Has it been done worse? Yes Was this pretty well done? I'd say so. I figure if a great show like Cheers can get away with it multiple times then JoA can do it once.

Posted by: SnakeEyes

One thing I always like about this show is that it tends to have a similiar theme across multiple stories or around characters, sometimes more so than others. This episodes issue theme was of course faith or question of. But did anyone else notice the light/dark theme surrouding it? Of course Joan was told to see in the dark, Helen's question of faith... the dream was at night with a storm... When Helen has a feeling about Joan she is lighting candles at the church and a breeze sweeps through them... Before the breeze Helen stops short of lighting the two candles in front of the cross. After she walks away the candles focus on the cross with the two candles to the sit lit, but the candles in front of the cross unlit. Will's question of fath.. as the "ghost" appears the light behind is flickering, on solid as the ghost and will talk, and after she leaves each light goes out as Will is walking off. As Joan is talking to the different appearances of God in her hospital room the light in the room increases and she talks about doing everything they asked and then decreases and she gets upset and wants them all to leave. They all were on the one side the room with the window and light. When Joan reveals to Adam later about talking with God both of their faces are half in shadow. When Joan tells him "nevermind" she turns over to the shadow side.

Posted by: SnakeEyes

In a non light/dark matter.. anyone else notice "cute guy" God sitting in the balcony when Helen looks up at the stained glass window?

Posted by: Timur

quote:
Originally posted by Ladd Morse
If you believe in God, it seems to me that by definition, you have to believe in the Devil.

Why? I don't understand that at all.

Posted by: Rob Helmerichs

quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Ladd Morse
If you believe in God, it seems to me that by definition, you have to believe in the Devil.

Originally posted by Timur
Why? I don't understand that at all.

Yeah, don't tell the Jews!

Posted by: smak

quote:
Originally posted by Medieval Guy
While watching it, I got the "Well, we'll never get renewed, so let's go out with a bang" feeling from it. It will be interesting to see where they go from here.

Well, the script was written and the show filmed far after they were renewed for next year, so I think this was done with next year in mind.

-smak-

Posted by: jeff125va

Just got around to watching this last night, GREAT episode! I really have to go back and watch a few scenes again - between the twins and the mascot, not sure which one I think was the hallucination, assuming one was a hallucination and one was actually God.

I don't remember which episode, but I recalled during the show that there had been at least one occasion where God had spoken to another character in the show. I believe it was the one where Joan threw the party when her parents were away. Someone definitely mentioned it in the thread for that episode. Of course, the scene at the end re-confirmed the same thing.

Posted by: jwjody

quote:
Originally posted by jeff125va
Just got around to watching this last night, GREAT episode! I really have to go back and watch a few scenes again - between the twins and the mascot, not sure which one I think was the hallucination, assuming one was a hallucination and one was actually God.

I don't remember which episode, but I recalled during the show that there had been at least one occasion where God had spoken to another character in the show. I believe it was the one where Joan threw the party when her parents were away. Someone definitely mentioned it in the thread for that episode. Of course, the scene at the end re-confirmed the same thing.

I think it's when he talked to her brother, but didn't reveal himself as God. Just as a liquor store clerk.

J

Posted by: edrock200

quote:
Originally posted by dr_mal
What was the deal with the mother that died and then appeared to William Girardi?

The significance to me of this scene is that the father might start to believe in a higher power. From the begining he doesn't seem to have much belief in God or religion, everything had to be rationalized. This seemed evident to me in the episode where the mom talks to the priest and the doctors about her son walking again.

Posted by: edrock200

quote:
Originally posted by jwjody
I think it's when he talked to her brother, but didn't reveal himself as God. Just as a liquor store clerk.

J

Yeah he says something to Joan like "What, we're now discussing our party plans with strangers" and she responds "I just do what I'm told dude."

That could be explained away as a hallucination too though.

Posted by: dr_mal

quote:
Originally posted by edrock200
The significance to me of this scene is that the father might start to believe in a higher power.

And that's kind of what bothered me about the scene -- it means the father might believe in just some higher power, or ghosts, with seances and whatnot not too far behind. It seems to me that God would want people to believe in the higher power, not a higher power. Not nitpicking your choice of words; I agree with the use of "a" in the context of the scene.

Maybe I'm just trying to force my evangelical Christian worldview on a show that isn't trying to portray an evangelical Christian worldview.

Posted by: jeff125va

quote:
Originally posted by dr_mal
Maybe I'm just trying to force my evangelical Christian worldview on a show that isn't trying to portray an evangelical Christian worldview.

Well, you're right that it's not trying to portray an evangelical Christian worldview, but it certainly seems to be monotheistic. And in this episode, when appearing as the mascot, God said "my name is 'I am.'" Although I'm not sure at this point whether the mascot was a hallucination or not.

Posted by: edrock200

quote:
Originally posted by dr_mal
And that's kind of what bothered me about the scene -- it means the father might believe in just some higher power, or ghosts, with seances and whatnot not too far behind. It seems to me that God would want people to believe in the higher power, not a higher power. Not nitpicking your choice of words; I agree with the use of "a" in the context of the scene.

Maybe I'm just trying to force my evangelical Christian worldview on a show that isn't trying to portray an evangelical Christian worldview.

Well its all stepping stones. The show also seems very careful to not lean towards any religion which might be why their "hints at faith" are so subtle.

Posted by: cheesesteak

The "dark twins" reminded me of characters from The Simpsons.

This episode reminded me of the Buffy ep. in which she hallucinates that she's in a mental institution and she's not really a Slayer.

Posted by: markp99

quote:
Originally posted by edrock200
The show also seems very careful to not lean towards any religion which might be why their "hints at faith" are so subtle.

I had noticed the same nondescript religiousness throughout this season of JOA.

However, the last episode did include a pretty clear Christian symbol. When Helen was lighting candles in the church, the image of a crucifix (from the candle table) was large in frame and in the foreground, albeit slightly out of focus...

This may just represent Helen's "choice" of religious practice...