TiVo Community Forums Archives - "The official apology thread"

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"The official apology thread"
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Posted by: rseligman

People here have been asking for multiple sub discounts for a long time, and others have accused them of just "whining" about wanting free stuff. Well surprise, surprise... it turns out that it actually is a reasonable thing to ask for. And free HMO, too.

So the next time people are asking TiVo for something, don't be so quick to dismiss it as nothing more than "whining".

I look forward to seeing posts in this thread from those who pooh-pooh'd free HMO and discounted sub fees. I want to hear about how you called TiVo and insisted that you not be included in the recent price cuts, since you still maintain that they're completely unreasonable.

Posted by: DrStrange

I never pooh-poohed free HMO, in fact I've often said it was more expensive than it was worth. I have argued with those wanting discounted sub fees so I'll apologize but only to those who's arguments couldn't be summarized as "they'll lose money on service but make it up in volume".

Then again it may just be that it's only just now become reasonable for Tivo to do it and until now the discount-sub crowd was wrong. :)

Posted by: lemketron

Heh... I'll step up and admit that I was one of the ones who was very vocal about the need for discounted subscription fees. I never said anything about free HMO - that's clearly a bonus. Anyway, hats off to TiVo for discounting the second box fees.

Personally I'm still a little bummed that a second lifetime sub is still $299, since I don't personally like paying on the monthly plan. However, at least this is a step in the right direction. I couldn't imagine paying $26/month to have two TiVo boxes (or $39/month for three).

Actually, I've gotten amazing value out of my lifetime subscription, purchased several years ago for something like $200 back when the TiVo first came out. With the new features and free HMO, I might just consider upgrading to a Series 2 (though I'd love to see another Series 1 --> 2 lifetime sub upgrade/transfer offer... hint hint!)

Posted by: dgh

What do TiVo's actions have to do with whether someone else is whining? And why would anyone want to whine to TiVo to try not to get a price cut?

Posted by: rseligman

quote:
Originally posted by dgh
why would anyone want to whine to TiVo to try not to get a price cut?

Why, indeed? Yet countless have. Whenver someone posts a rationale for a requested price cut, they are often pounced on for not understanding business, failing to take TiVo's finances into account, or just "whining" that they want something for free. Then there's that one guy who posts "I want a pony" in every thread he can.

My (facetious) point being that those who previously argued that discounted subs and free HMO aren't reasonable things should--to be consistent with their position--now call TiVo and refuse them, as they're apparently so unreasonable as to not even be worth requesting.

Or, if one finds them unreasonable when they're not offered, but reasonable once they are, then one demonstrates a severe lack of conviction.

Posted by: dgh

quote:
Originally posted by rseligman
Why, indeed? Yet countless have. Whenver someone posts a rationale for a requested price cut, they are often pounced on for not understanding business, failing to take TiVo's finances into account, ...

OK but that isn't what I asked. :D

quote:
Originally posted by rseligman
Then there's that one guy who posts "I want a pony" in every thread he can.

Right and some kids do get their ponies. But that doesn't mean that I can't say "stop whining" to my kid just because it worked for another kid. Whining is a style, not a result.

Posted by: kenerups

Ok you got your free pony and you are still whining? "I want an apology? My feelings were hurt." That is the epitomy of whining. Getting what you want and you still can't be happy.:D

Posted by: rseligman

quote:
Originally posted by dgh
OK but that isn't what I asked.

I answered what you asked. I said "Why, indeed?" That means, "I have no idea why people posted the silly things they did, but they did."

quote:
Right and some kids do get their ponies. But that doesn't mean that I can't say "stop whining" to my kid just because it worked for another kid. Whining is a style, not a result.

Who said anything about it working? If your kid says "I want iiiiiiceeeeeee creeeeeammmmm!" then you can call it whining. If he says "Father, given that I have sucessfully completed all of my chores and have eaten all of my vegetables, I believe that it would be equitable for you to provide me with ice cream", then would you still call it whining?

Yet that's what some do on here. People post rational reasons for believing that a reduced sub fee is warranted, and they're shot down for "whining" for something so unreasonable. But when TiVo actually offers such a thing, then suddenly the anti-"whiners" shut up and enjoy the price cut like everyone else.

Posted by: CrispyCritter

Rseligman, I'm very disappointed in your whining. You're a better contributor to this forum than this thread shows.

I certainly don't feel I owe anybody an apology, and I've been one of those defending TiVo's business policy. You're completely ignoring TiVo's history. TiVo almost went out of business 2 1/2 years ago. They had to sell 1/7 of the company for enough cash ($25 million) to last an extra 3 months. They laid off hundreds of people and stopped all advertising. They were in "save every penny" mode, and had to be.

In the past year, (note long after plans for introduction of HMO), they've doubled their subscriptions and have finally turned the corner. There's finally confidence that they will survive. They got $75 million in cash in January to finally be able to do things like reduced prices for multiple subscriptions and free HMO. TiVo is able to give this now since they were able to barely eak through their tough period. And now that TiVo can finally give us a good deal, they get attacked. As I said, I'm disappointed in you.

Posted by: rseligman

quote:
Originally posted by CrispyCritter
And now that TiVo can finally give us a good deal, they get attacked. As I said, I'm disappointed in you.

Well, I'm disappointed that you completely missed my point.

I never attacked Tivo on this. My comments were directed at those posters who complain about other posters who request things that TiVo eventually provides.

And none of this is related to TiVo's financial or business issues. I'm not talking about those who have said TiVo can't offer discounted subs because they can't afford it. That's a sound argument and a rational response.

I'm talking about those who respond to other posters' requests with "you're not entitled to that", or "you can't have something for free".

If someone posts "I already paid $299 for lifetime, I don't want to pay anymore", then you can accuse them of whining. But many people have posted clear and cogent arguments for why a multi-sub discount makes sense, and others still shoot them down for "whining". It is to these people that I address my comments.

Posted by: dgh

quote:
Originally posted by rseligman
I answered what you asked.

You must have misunderstood me or you are refering to something I haven't seen.

quote:
Originally posted by rseligman
Who said anything about it working? If your kid says "I want iiiiiiceeeeeee creeeeeammmmm!" then you can call it whining.

I would call that a key debounce failure. That's not the way one whines on a text forum.

quote:
Originally posted by rseligman
If he says "Father, given that I have sucessfully completed all of my chores and have eaten all of my vegetables, I believe that it would be equitable for you to provide me with ice cream", then would you still call it whining?

That's something else that I have never seen on this forum before.

Posted by: smak

Step 1. Whine about high pricing.
Step 2. Pricing is lowered
Step 3. Whine about reimbursements for time pricing was higher.

-smak-

Posted by: Kracko

quote:
Originally posted by lemketron
Personally I'm still a little bummed that a second lifetime sub is still $299...

Yeah but think about it from TiVo's perspective. You could buy additional units, purchase a discounted lifetime for it and sell them on eBay and get back more than what you paid for it.

Posted by: kensteele

rseligman, you're never going to make your point clear to those who don't want to see it. i see exactly what you are saying, it doesn't take a mba to figure out this one. but since the membership will hold true to form, the excuses will still continue to flow and people will continue to backup their assertions while missing your point entirely. i hope you do get disappointed by the handwringing that is about to follow because it's either coming or this thread is being ignored. you might as well make a copy of your second point and just keep re-typing it, otherwise you're going to be frustrated.

Posted by: Peter000

quote:
Originally posted by Kracko
Yeah but think about it from TiVo's perspective. You could buy additional units, purchase a discounted lifetime for it and sell them on eBay and get back more than what you paid for it.

Well, TiVo could make it so the second, discounted lifetime sub is only good at the household that purchased it, or has to be used in conjunction with a Lifetime Sub unit.

Frankly, I think TiVo is trying to devalue the Lifetime Sub somewhat, or at least attempting to limit the Lifetime Subs that are out there. Heck they're losing money on any TiVos that have Lifetimes that are over 3 years old at this point. Why would they want more TiVo's out there that are going to run out of cash generating potential? Now, there are going to be far fewer multiple TiVo homes that are going to take advantage of the LS deal for every TiVo in the house, which will produce a longer cash revenue stream for those units, especially when they're sold or passed on to other customers.

Posted by: dmdeane

quote:
Originally posted by rseligman
So the next time people are asking TiVo for something, don't be so quick to dismiss it as nothing more than "whining".

Just because TiVo recently decided to adjust its business model, which happened to coincide with some of the whining people were putting on here a few years ago, does not negate the fact that they were whining.

It's not the request for "free stuff" that people find annoying; it's the whining that people find annoying. I think most people can distinguish between a reasonable request and simple whining.

Granted in some cases accusations of "whining" are overused, but the distinction between whining and a reasonable request/suggestion is a valid one and well worth keeping in mind.

Saying "well, this is nice, but TiVo would make even more money/get more customers if they did x" is a reasonable request/suggestion (wrong at the time, but not whining). Saying "TiVo is awful; I'm not paying for this, how dare they charge for this, and I don't want it anyway, but I'm going to tell all my friends how bad TiVo is, unless TiVo gives me x, y, and z! Or I'm going to pay for it, but I'm going to keep on complaining about it, especially if they make it free later!" - this is whining. And yes it did/does happen.

Besides, the whiners (and non-whiners) were wrong. It was in TiVo's best interests to get the early adopters to pay more for the funding of these new features/services. Now that TiVo aparently has decided that this early adopter/bleeding edge customer well has dried up, they are rolling out these services for free or at reduced prices to draw in a larger user base.

Had TiVo not waited so long before doing this, TiVo would be deeper in debt (or out of business) and there is no reason to think it would have made up the difference in "increased volume" as it were. Since TiVo nearly went out of business at one point and had to lay off a lot of employees, I think the burden of proof is on those who claim that TiVo could have afforded to give stuff away free or at reduced price back then; I think this is/was an unsupportable assertion. Now of course, TiVo is in a vastly improved situation (although nowhere "in the clear" yet).

If you want to be an early adopter, you have to realize your role as an "enabler" for the late adopters. And quit whining about it.

Posted by: kensteele

Yeah go ahead, put the blame on the "whiners" still. :rolleyes:

When you're wrong, you're wrong.

Posted by: jmace57

quote:
Originally posted by Peter000
Frankly, I think TiVo is trying to devalue the Lifetime Sub somewhat, or at least attempting to limit the Lifetime Subs that are out there.

I agree. I have one that is on monthly, and 2 lifetime. I was planning to upgrade to lifetime on the third, but at $6.95, I think I'll just keep it monthly.

Cheers

Jim

Posted by: dgh

quote:
Originally posted by kensteele
Yeah go ahead, put the blame on the "whiners" still. :rolleyes:

This reminds me of an old cartoon where a kid gets caught breaking a window and looks at the camera and goes all pouty and says "I get blamed for all the stuff I do."

Posted by: rseligman

quote:
Originally posted by dmdeane
Saying "well, this is nice, but TiVo would make even more money/get more customers if they did x" is a reasonable request/suggestion (wrong at the time, but not whining).

Unfortunately, I believe that more often than not such posts have been dismissed as whining.

I admit there is a lot of whining. Most posts that are little more than "I'm paying too much" are whines. But a lot of people offer rationale for their points, and they're still dismissed as whining. The point of writing this thread was hopefully to make those who cut others down for "whining" perhaps think about the point being made and allow the possibility that it's a valid one.

I've seen people lay out what may have been solid business reasons for multi-sub discounts and free HMO. Yet even those who I think you wouldn't classify as "whiners" are dismissed with a "you just want something for free, whiner".

So my point again is that those who would strike down a reasonable and substantiated suggestion as a "whine" should voluntarily decline to participate when that suggestion is implemented. Or, as kensteele suggests, see my second post. :D

quote:
Besides, the whiners (and non-whiners) were wrong. It was in TiVo's best interests to get the early adopters to pay more for the funding of these new features/services. Now that TiVo aparently has decided that this early adopter/bleeding edge customer well has dried up, they are rolling out these services for free or at reduced prices to draw in a larger user base.

Had TiVo not waited so long before doing this, TiVo would be deeper in debt (or out of business)

I'm sure that's all true. I would be very happy to see posts like "good idea, but it's probably not feasible for them right now" instead of "stop whining".

Posted by: tomo_kun

DNFTT?

Posted by: DrStrange

quote:
Originally posted by rseligman
I've seen people lay out what may have been solid business reasons for multi-sub discounts and free HMO. Yet even those who I think you wouldn't classify as "whiners" are dismissed with a "you just want something for free, whiner".

Many of those "solid business reasons" boiled down to "if it was cheaper, more people would buy it". Well DUH. This is painfully obvious, yet many argued it as if they believed it had never occurred to Tivo, and the only reason Tivo hadn't done it was because they were too thick to see it. Does anybody seriously believe that if it had been as clear a win as many thought it was that Tivo wouldn't have done it long ago? What's more likely, that these discounts have been feasible all along and Tivo just finally caved to user demand, or that Tivo has been well aware of the benefits (and drawbacks) of the discounts and it simply hasn't been fiscally reasonable to implement them until now?

Anybody can make a case when they don't have to argue beyond generalities. But ultimately you have to get down to specifics - exactly what such discounts cost Tivo, exactly how they'll impact future plans and whatnot - to see if something's really desirable, or even feasible. People here don't have those numbers. Tivo does.

quote:
I would be very happy to see posts like "good idea, but it's probably not feasible for them right now" instead of "stop whining".

I'd be surprised if there really weren't any "good idea, but..." posts. I think it's more likely that there were, and they were often rebutted by repeating the same figure-free "but they'll make it up volume" mantra.

Posted by: CrispyCritter

quote:
Originally posted by DrStrange
I'd be surprised if there really weren't any "good idea, but..." posts. I think it's more likely that there were, and they were often rebutted by repeating the same figure-free "but they'll make it up volume" mantra.

You think so:eek: ?

(Yes, I made numerous arguments of this sort, and was strongly attacked for doing so.)

Posted by: kristov

I agree with most of the Tivo whiners - Tivo was virtually built on the word of mouth and faith its subscribers had in the product - and what they got in return was attempts to take advantage of them.

Tivo definately shouldnt have charged for HMO since that stuff is free on the ReplayTV and now they act like they are doing you a favor.

I like my Tivo product and what it does - but doesnt mean i want to be used by the company I am attempting to support and none of you should accept it as ok.

"Just because you can make money doing it, doesn't mean you should make money doing it that way" - ME.

Posted by: dgh

quote:
Originally posted by rseligman
So my point again is that those who would strike down a reasonable and substantiated suggestion as a "whine" should voluntarily decline to participate when that suggestion is implemented.

I don't believe that I've struck down a reasonable and substantiated suggestion as a "whine" myself and my definition of whining and my belief in its efficacy are both apparently wildly different from your own (I believe that if there's any connection between the price reduction and whining it is more likely to be an in-spite-of relation.)

Nonetheless, I will volunteer to refrain from any price decrease which was preceded solely by whining and not also by well-reasoned and polite suggestions from people who appear to understand that the world isn't solely about them.

quote:
Originally posted by kristov
... and now they act like they are doing you a favor.

... but doesnt mean i want to be used by the company I am attempting to support and none of you should accept it as ok.

Of course if this line develops, I wonder if I will then be required to accept the price reduction. How do we resolve a contradictory whine situation if it appears?

Posted by: rseligman

quote:
Originally posted by dgh
my definition of whining and my belief in its efficacy are both apparently wildly different from your own (I believe that if there's any connection between the price reduction and whining it is more likely to be an in-spite-of relation.)

You must be responding to a different thread. This one doesn't contain any suggestion of a relationship--causal or otherwise--among whining, well-supported suggestions, and TiVo's behavior. And I certainly never predicated any of my own statements on the ability of any post here to have an effect on TiVo.

Posted by: rseligman

quote:
Originally posted by DrStrange
Many of those "solid business reasons" boiled down to "if it was cheaper, more people would buy it". Well DUH. This is painfully obvious, yet many argued it as if they believed it had never occurred to Tivo, and the only reason Tivo hadn't done it was because they were too thick to see it. Does anybody seriously believe that if it had been as clear a win as many thought it was that Tivo wouldn't have done it long ago?

You demonstrate the clear distinction between a response of "that's a reasonable suggestion, but probably hasn't happened for these reasons..." and "stop whining."

Posted by: dgh

quote:
Originally posted by rseligman
You must be responding to a different thread.

This fish just isn't that hungry today ;)

The offer stands.

Posted by: rseligman

quote:
Originally posted by dgh
The offer stands.

Knock yourself out. Your "offer" is wholly unrelated to anything I said in this thread.