TiVo Community Forums Archives - All models have built in clear-QAM digital cable and over-the-air ATSC tuners.

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All models have built in clear-QAM digital cable and over-the-air ATSC tuners.
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Posted by: MediaLivingRoom

Why can't TiVo have this?

Please read below.

CableCard can be an option, right? The FCC does not require TiVo to include this for DVR's. So can we have at least: Clear-QAM digital cable and over-the-air ATSC tuners?

http://www.twice.com/index.asp?layo...icleID=CA421795

In CRT direct view products, Samsung will carry eight models with built-in ATSC tuners in four screen sizes. All but one model has a suggested retail price starting at under $1,000.

All models have built in clear-QAM digital cable and over-the-air ATSC tuners, but omit CableCard compatibility. By screen size, the company will offer three models in 30W-inch 16:9 ($999, $999 and $1,199.99), two models in 26W-inches 16:9 ($699 each), two models in 32-inch 4:3 ($999 each) and a 27-inch 4:3 ($699).

Posted by: KermitTheFrog

The market would be so rediculiously small that it's not worth Tivo's R&D time.

KC

Posted by: rasheed

There is an expected 3.5 million households to be using HD in their homes by the end of the year. That is about 3% (or less) based on total households. However, it is important to note that their adoption of PVR devices is probably very high (more than 75%) which could be big in terms of sales.

However, a HD TiVo box that is compatable with OTA or cable systems should have a QAM and cable-card (for pay channels) (and ATSC for OTA signal). The QAM at the moment is only most effective for HD OTA channels carried by providers because they are not typically encrypted (not requiring a cable card). So, someone with a QAM tuner could usually see HD OTA channels carried by their cable provider without a cable provider box.

Rasheed

Posted by: ellinj

Are any cable companies planning to re-broadcast OTA HD such as NBC,ABC in the clear?

Posted by: Dennis Wilkinson

quote:
Originally posted by ellinj
Are any cable companies planning to re-broadcast OTA HD such as NBC,ABC in the clear?

Comcast does in my market, although some (most?) of the in-the-clear QAM tuners don't number the channels like a Comcast-provided digital cable box would.

I, too, think we're looking at a too-limited market. It'd be fine for (the small number of) folks who only want HD over-the-air, but I suspect that it'd be too limited for anyone receiving most of their HD from a cable co. Comcast, for example, has dozens if not hundreds of channels broadcast using QAM (all the digital SD channels plus the much smaller number of HD channels.) A grand total of 4 HD channels and 4 SD channels are broadcast in the clear - in fact, the channels broadcast in the clear are only those that I could receive OTA anyway, plus a single preview channel. An OpenCable box is the only way to go to address the cable market, IMHO, although I'd admit to not minding if the box also had ATSC tuners in it as well.

Posted by: sbourgeo

quote:
Originally posted by Dennis Wilkinson
Comcast does in my market, although some (most?) of the in-the-clear QAM tuners don't number the channels like a Comcast-provided digital cable box would.

I live on the other side of town and all of the HDTV channels on Comcast have different numbers:

code:
Network	Comcast	QAM
FOX	825	84-2
ABC	805	85-1
NBC	807	85-2
CBS	804	88-2
...

I get crap with OTA reception and will eventually end up with a DVR that will work with HDTV from my pals at Comcast. Hopefully, it'll be a TiVo.

Steve

Posted by: classicsat

Technically, they can build one tuner module that can handle both QAM and ATSC.

Posted by: MediaLivingRoom

What about the current Digital Cable?? Most companies have digital cable even if there are no HD or little HD, Can't we just use QAM tuners for those?

Posted by: bkdtv

Media,

Yes, Tivo will almost certainly offer a CableCard model next year. This will allow them to deliver native support for digital cable channels (eliminating the need for a digital cable box) with dual-tuner functionality. It remains to be seen whether Tivo will support HDTV with their initial CableCard products. HDTV substantially increases the memory and storage requirements.

quote:
Can't we just use QAM tuners for those?

Aside from the HDTV locals, which are unencrypted on Comcast, Cox, Time Warner, and other major cable systems, most digital channels on cable are encrypted. A Tivo can't just support QAM, it has to support CableCard to receive these encrypted digital cable channels.

You lease the CableCard (looks like a PCMCIA card) from your cable company for $0.00 to $2.50/mo; this plugs into the box and provides the authorization to decrypt the digital cable channels you receive as part of your subscription. You no longer need to use or lease a set-top box from the cable company.

Posted by: rasheed

quote:
Originally posted by bkdtv
You lease the CableCard (looks like a PCMCIA card) from your cable company for $0.00 to $2.50/mo; this plugs into the box and provides the authorization to decrypt the digital cable channels you receive as part of your subscription. You no longer need to use or lease a set-top box from the cable company.

Actually, there are some quotes from Comcast that indicates they will charge 6.95 for each additional cablecard (1 is included with the cost of the service packages -- assuming you don't take their box). 6.95 is identical to the cost if you got one of their digital boxes for 'additional outlets'.

Rasheed

Posted by: bkdtv

rasheed,

Yes, all Comcast systems plan to charge for each secondary CableCard, afaik. Actual pricing will vary by market / division.

Posted by: MediaLivingRoom

quote:
Originally posted by bkdtv
Media,

Yes, Tivo will almost certainly offer a CableCard model next year. This will allow them to deliver native support for digital cable channels (eliminating the need for a digital cable box) with dual-tuner functionality. It remains to be seen whether Tivo will support HDTV with their initial CableCard products. HDTV substantially increases the memory and storage requirements.

Aside from the HDTV locals, which are unencrypted on Comcast, Cox, Time Warner, and other major cable systems, most digital channels on cable are encrypted. A Tivo can't just support QAM, it has to support CableCard to receive these encrypted digital cable channels.

You lease the CableCard (looks like a PCMCIA card) from your cable company for $0.00 to $2.50/mo; this plugs into the box and provides the authorization to decrypt the digital cable channels you receive as part of your subscription. You no longer need to use or lease a set-top box from the cable company.

Does next year really mean: Dec 31, 2005???

Posted by: Dan203

quote:
Originally posted by MediaLivingRoom
Does next year really mean: Dec 31, 2005???

It could. However most new products are released around October/November to facilitate the holiday buying season. :)

Dan

Posted by: bkdtv

During their last analysts conference, Tivo did say we might see something about CableCard around the end of this year -- an announcement at CES in January wouldn't be out of the question. As to whether it will support HDTV (or just digital SD channels), and when it will be available...who knows.

The longer Tivo waits, the longer they give cable companies to get their act together.

Posted by: rdkyl

I might add cable cards or cable card tv's will not support two way operations that you local cable compaines provide. Such as VOD & PPV

Posted by: Bigg

VOD is something TiVo makes obsolete.

Posted by: rdkyl

Yes if you could only get the content through TIVO

Posted by: bkdtv

quote:
I might add cable cards or cable card tv's will not support two way operations that you local cable compaines provide. Such as VOD & PPV

Note this is just for first-generation, one-way CableCard products. The two-way CableCard standard is expected in the next 6-9 months. This will support VOD and guide information. I would expect a CableCard Tivo to make use of the two-way standard.

Posted by: dt_dc

quote:
Originally posted by bkdtv
The two-way CableCard standard is expected in the next 6-9 months. This will support VOD and guide information. I would expect a CableCard Tivo to make use of the two-way standard.

The standards exist now. It's the agreement between the MSOs and CEA that's being worked on. Even after that is finished ... it's going to have to go through the FCC ... I wouldn't expect two way products until mid 2006 at the earliest.

Also, guide data is provided for one-way products.

Posted by: bkdtv

quote:
The standards exist now.

Also, guide data is provided for one-way products.

No, there is no standard until the FCC mandates it. What we have now are specifications, some of which are still in flux.

As far as guide-data for one way products, there is IPG information sent in-band or out-of-band on many cable networks, but not necessarily all in the same format. The QPSK IPG information on SA head-ends is not compatible with Motorola receivers, for example.

Posted by: skaeight

quote:
Originally posted by Bigg
VOD is something TiVo makes obsolete.

However, with TiVo what need is there for VOD? Why do I need to pay extra money to my cable company for each VOD channel I want, when I could just program my TiVo to record what I want, so I can watch it when I want.

VOD is just a cash cow for cable companies.

Posted by: bkdtv

skaeight,

I don't know if you've had cable recently, but much of the VOD on cable is available at no extra charge. In my market, the cable company offers HBO ON DEMAND service for free to HBO subscribers; this includes every episode of every season of every HBO series, every stand up comedy show, and just about every new movie release shown so far this year. They offer a similar service for Cinemax subscribers.

They also offer on demand access to all episodes of a number of popular network and cable channel programs and events -- all at no charge to digital cable subscribers. For example, every game of the NBA Finals and NHL Stanley Cup is available at no cost. In the not-too-distant future, cable systems in major markets will also offer some HDTV VOD. The only VOD service that costs extra, at least in this market, is their new movie releases -- which is essentially their replacement for PPV service.

DVR does mitigate many of VOD's benefits, but not all of them. For example, if you don't have the latest season of The Sopranos recorded to your Tivo right now, you are SOL, as they are not showing again in June or July, and won't be out on DVD for months. However, every episode of the latest season--and every episode of every previous season--is available for free to HBO subscribers via VOD.

Posted by: skaeight

That does sound pretty cool. However my cable company isn't offering VOD yet. I may be interested if they do decide to start offering it. So there is no extra charge at all for VOD? I really find that hard to believe, it seems that cable companies (and satellite companies for that matter) love to nickel and dime you any chance they get.

Posted by: Bigg

quote:
Originally posted by skaeight
However, with TiVo what need is there for VOD? Why do I need to pay extra money to my cable company for each VOD channel I want, when I could just program my TiVo to record what I want, so I can watch it when I want.

VOD is just a cash cow for cable companies.

Is there an echo in here?

Posted by: skaeight

quote:
Originally posted by Bigg
Is there an echo in here?

Ha, ok I must have dyslexia setting in or something. I read that as the opposite, I thought you said VOD makes tivo obsolete. My bad.

Posted by: Bigg

K, thats fine, my wording could be confusing if read quickly. At leat we agree. :D:D:D

Posted by: bkdtv

quote:
So there is no extra charge at all for VOD? I really find that hard to believe, it seems that cable companies (and satellite companies for that matter) love to nickel and dime you any chance they get.

That's correct. The only VOD you pay for is their PPV movies, at least on Comcast.

Now, when cable companies were talking about VOD five years ago, they were saying that it would bring in all sorts of new, incremental revenues. However, the popularity of DVR and Tivo threw a big wrench in those plans. They've had to give VOD away for free just to remain competitive with satellite.