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Not Pleased with Gift TiVo
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Posted by: Natron

I have purchased my 6th TiVo this week as present for my parents. I also bought a lifetime subscription for my parents. I had it shipped to my house, so I could set it up. When I went to activate the subscription on the web a credit card was required, even though it has already been paid for.

I called the TiVo CSR and explained that I have already paid for the subscription, but the CSR said a credit card was still required. After talking to supervisor I was told it was required for verification. I asked if my parents were activating it then how would their credit card be used verification. The supervisor asked if I have the same last name. So if I give it to a friend who has a different last name how is verification possible? What if I give it to a friend who does not have credit card? I don't want to give someone a gift and tell them "Oh by the way you will need your use credit card to activate this gift".

The final answer I got from the supervisor was that how our system is set up, which akin to saying that's the way it is. I am planning on sending it back for a refund and buy my parents something else.

Posted by: kantonburg

Although I feel the verification system seems a bit silly I can't understand why you would send it back. You obviously endorse the product as you have mentioned you purchased 6 TiVos. You have a product you like, find useful, and think is good enough to give as a gift.

I don't know I suppose everyone has their annoyances that deter purchases that others find silly. Hopefully TiVo has a good answer for the reason.

Posted by: dobbie1

I was thinking of purchasing a TiVo and subscription as a wedding gift. I understood all that was needed to activate was the code you received when purchasing the gift. If this is not the case, I will re-think my purchase. Thanks for the heads-up.

Regards

Posted by: Ladd Morse

Wow!!

Good timing with this post -- I have also been considering giving a TiVo as a gift to my parents and this information definitely causes me to pause.

I look forward to seeing how this evolves with additional information in additional postings from other community members.

Posted by: DancnDude

If you are setting it up anyways, why not just activate it for them? Set it up at your place with their TV lineup, and maybe even put in a few season passes for shows you know they like. If you have the same lineup, let it record a couple shows even so they have something to try out when they get it.

It is silly that you would need a credit card to activate a gift subscription, but if they won't be charged, I don't see much of a problem. If they don't have a credit card, I would assume calling TiVo support would probably activate you over the phone.

Posted by: Natron

I did talk to TiVo support and a supervisor and they said a credit card was mandatory. I wished I would have asked what would they do if someone does have a credit card.

Posted by: stevel

I think the way TiVo wants you to do this is by buying a gift certificate, but I agree that the requirement for a credit card when lifetime service has already been purchased is absurd.

Posted by: murgatroyd

The verification is not silly. It is standard practice in a lot of different businesses.

How is this different than picking up theatre tickets at a will-call window?

If you buy the tickets over the phone, when you pick them up, you generally have to show the CC you paid for them with. Once I got tickets for a show as a gift and the person who gave them to me gave me a letter saying the tickets were a gift along with a photocopy of her credit card, thinking that should be good enough.

Wrong. The box office person plotzed, called a supervisor, I was left standing around long enough to miss the start of the show. :(

TiVo may need to improve its handling of service given as gifts, but so do a lot of other industries.

As credit card fraud over the net gets worse, you can expect even more hassles from vendors when you try to buy gifts and have them shipped to the third party's address, or do anything which involves having the merchandise or service at places other than the credit card's billing address. Credit card companies are NOT willing to protect the merchant against fraud, so the merchants have to be strict in order to protect themselves.

Jan

Posted by: TiVoOpsMgr

Hi folks,

I'm sorry that this is a problem. Our system does require a valid credit card for every single gift card redemption, even for Product Lifetime when there will be no charge to that credit card.

To re-emphasize the point: There will not be any charge to your credit card in this situation.

There are a lot of arcane accounting, system and identity verification reasons for this, and unfortunately that's the way it is. We did try to remove that requirement during the design of this program, but there were too many issues and ultimately we were forced to launch as we did.

I will take the feedback here to the team and let you know if we can make any changes in the future.

One advantage to having your credit card on file is that if we ever offer future optional services that involve a charge, you'll have the convenience of having a card ready to go.

Natron, I'm sorry that you're upset and considering a return. Please contact me and we'll see if we can work out something as an alternative.

Best regards,
Stephen

From the Gift-Giving FAQs (http://www.tivo.com/2.9.3.asp):

Why am I being asked to enter my credit card information if I have a TiVo service gift subscription?

At the time of activation, we require credit card information from all TiVo subscribers. If you choose a monthly billing option and apply a monthly gift subscription toward this option, you will be charged the regular monthly fee only after your gift subscription has been fully used. If you choose a product lifetime service and utilize a product lifetime TiVo service gift subscription you will not see a charge on your credit card.

Posted by: kenerups

The problem that made me parranoid about this was mistyping the code. I was afraid if i mis-typed it that my credit card would be charged since the service lifetime code was invalid. However, I was able to get around this by not putting my credit card number in until i knew the code would be accepted.

Posted by: dobbie1

It is unfortunate. As I said I was intending to give as a wedding gift and have it delivered. I don't know if they have a valid credit card or not to activate TiVo. It is not really any of my business. Seems to me kinda tacky to say, "Hey I sent you a wedding gift, but you will need a credit card to activate." Also kinda ruins the occasion. Since I don't plan on providing them my credit card number to activate, therein lies the problem. Maybe this isn't a big problem to others, but it does create a problem for me. I have been ordering items online long before it became a common practice. I have never had a problem ordering an item and having the item delivered to a different address. All I have had to do is provide both my address as the card holders and the shipping address. Oh, well back to the drawing board.

Posted by: bootedbear

quote:
The verification is not silly. It is standard practice in a lot of different businesses.

How does that make it not silly? Lots of businesses do lots of silly things.

quote:
I was left standing around long enough to miss the start of the show.

And you didn't find that incredibly silly just becaue it's "standard practice"?

Posted by: skubish

This is absurd.

A credit card is to be used to make a purchase not to verify identity. This is not the intended purpose of a credit card and I think you will find it is a violation of the use agreement.

Posted by: Natron

I waited and decided to give the TiVo to my parents. I have pasted 2 screen shots pertaining to the activation. I think that they need to make the wording better or even an option for a life time gift subscription. The second screen shows that there will be no charge. I really appreciate TiVoOpsMgr responding to this thread.

http://home.comcast.net/~bracyr/mom/TiVo1.jpg
http://home.comcast.net/~bracyr/mom/TiVo2.jpg

Posted by: OLdDog

TiVoOpsMgr,

While it is good that you responded to this thread your stated reasons for CC is totally absurd. IT is the "excuse" that many companies give for outdated policies and lazy support departments.

There are many, many people that do not use any form of CC yet want to own equipment like TiVo. This policy excludes those people from your buyer group and costs customers.

Currently the only way for people without CCs to get this kind of product is to go to the trouble of acquiring one of the prepaid CCs, an option that many people find annoying and many believe that there is a chance they will loose their money.

You are correct that some companies require a CC for various reasons but there are also many that do not and most of those that do have a work around for those that do not have a CC..
Dish does (for their promotions that involve free equipment. They have services and subs that do not require a CC)
DTV does (For the same as Dish)
Sprint does not.
Verison does not.
Comcast does not.
Sirius does not.
Yahoo (business services) does not.

You can argue all you want that it is the way it is and that the software is at fault but it still remains a dumb police that most companies are working to get around and those that don’t have made the decision to be less profitable than the could be. This seems a dumb business decision to me.

There should be, at least, a phone call option that gets around the "requirement". Online options may require a CC but there should be an alternative if the customer calls in their activation.

Posted by: LiveBlues

While I find this a bit silly myself, most people have a debit card these days. Works the same way.

Posted by: ThreeSoFar

I have to agree here. Asking for a credit card for proof...of what, I don't know. It's been paid. Maybe call the gift giver and get their authorization and credit card if you must.

Posted by: kensteele

Absolutely absurd.

Have to have sufficient credit issued by a bank in order to use Tivo equipment? Mandatory?

Absurb. Perhaps Tivo can give us THEIR credit card number for this no-charging transaction LOL.

Any company that demands that it's customers have credit, no other choice or options; not wise. I guess if you are under 18, no Tivo.

While I might be open to use my cards freely and I understand the whole deal, there are people who WILL NOT understand it.

Posted by: dswallow

TiVoOpsMgr provides the best reason why you would not activate a gift subscription using your own credit card: there might come a time when optional extra-cost services are offered and the credit card that is on file will get those charges.

TiVo is essentially providing an avenue for credit card abuse.

The requirement of a credit card in this situation is absurd, and is entirely based on a limitation in poorly designed software that's probably been adjusted over the years to accommodate new things that were not in the original design and those were done in such a way that they required workarounds, making the whole system even worse.

If I were giving a gift, I expect the gift to be the end of it. The additional hassle of requiring a credit card when a subscription is fully pre-paid or even when a subscription is prepaid for a given period of time is poor customer service. As a gift-giver, I don't want to worry that the person I'm giving it to has a credit card or not, and I don't want to be using my own credit card, exposing me to additional charges at some point in the future.

Whether this gets fixed properly, or TiVo CSR's are simply given a list of "fake" credit card numbers to use in such situations, it should never be something the customer has to deal with. It shouldn't take a posting like this to find a workaround to the substandard system; it should be handled by any CSR.

Well, let me say that finding the need for a workaround might be something a posting like this is good for, but the next person who runs into this situation should be dealt with gracefully by the CSR with a documented procedure for them to follow so that a credit card is not required.

Posted by: bywi

Thanks for the heads up, Natron. Yes, it is *absurd* that they require a CC to activate a gift purchase. I have considered giving TiVo as a gift to my parents, but they've always been paranoid about entering their CC#'s online and they would no doubt ask me why TiVo is requiring a credit card number for a gift I gave to them.

Posted by: Ladd Morse

quote:
Originally posted by TiVoOpsMgr
There are a lot of arcane accounting, system and identity verification reasons for this, and unfortunately that's the way it is. We did try to remove that requirement during the design of this program, but there were too many issues and ultimately we were forced to launch as we did.

As always, the direct input from TiVo Corporate is very much appreciated. It is nice to hear something other than "the computer makes us do it" that one hears in a typical brick-and-morter "Valued Customer Associate" sales situation.

However, please allow me to respectfully and clearly say that the decisions that led to implementation of this business model may be the best balancing act TiVo could come up with to protect its interests, but it has definitely lost a lifetime-gift sale that would have occurred this week.

I will shortly be embarking on the annual visit to the getting-on-in-years parents (late 70's) and there is absolutely no way they will give their credit card number to Tivo under these circumstances. It was going to be a minor challenge to get them to even try TiVo, but I figured that if it didn't work out, they could simply give it back to me.

Having to tell them that they need to give a strange company their credit card number to use a gift creates a mental screenplay of a scenario that exceeds my devotion to the TiVolution cause. :(

quote:
One advantage to having your credit card on file is that if we ever offer future optional services that involve a charge, you'll have the convenience of having a card ready to go.

True, and a nice try. :)

If at some point in the future TiVo offered a for-pay service that my parents would like to have, I'm sure that after using their TiVo for a while they would be happy to purchase that service via credit card. But it's not going to happen right out of the box.

Perhaps the "gift to old people" segment is sufficiently small as to not be a regrettable loss of sales. But if TiVo considers that most gifts of TiVo service are probably going to people who have never had a TiVo before, asking for a credit card so that they can use a gift they don't yet understand seems to be placing a rather large hurdle in the way. And one that unfortunately makes sense only to Tivo.

Posted by: ThreeSoFar

You are pushing it, Stephen, with the "just in case we want to sell you something later" excuse.

This is lame. It is insecure. You're opening up TiVo to the liability of storing a bunch more cc#'s than you need to.

Lame. Fix it.

Posted by: NPBeacher

Not to say that this could happen, but there are folks who are uncomfortable with giving out CC information to businesses over the internet, because frankly, business can and do get hacked from time to time.

As much assurance as they may give that your information is safe, your CC information could be stolen by a hacker. Giving a gift subscription should not place the gift recipient's CC at risk of etheft.

Just my two cents,

-T

Posted by: dylanemcgregor

Just wanted to add my "this policy sucks" vote.

After the price drop, and HMO bundles I was about to buy two TiVo's as gifts. One for my Dad, and one as a wedding gift. The CC requirement that I read about here stopped me from getting either. My Dad is pretty adamant about not having a CC, he won't even use a plain old ATM card. So I knew that getting him a gift that asked for a CC before activation would put a bad taste in his mouth.

In general it just seems tacky to give a gift that requires anything like this before being activated. I'm very much a fan of TiVo, but I will not give one as a gift while this policy is in effect.

-Dylan

Posted by: Natron

I think the best way to handle this is buy it for your self first and go through the activation and the setup. I am putting seasons passes with their favorite shows and recording them for a month or two. Next I will set it up at their house and re-do the guided set up. I will be able to program it via the Internet with TiVo Central in the future. Once they start using it I bet they will get hooked.

As a gift, it will be more exciting if it has 40 hours their favorite shows.

Posted by: dswallow

quote:
Originally posted by Natron
I think the best way to handle this is buy it for your self first and go through the activation and the setup. I am putting seasons passes with their favorite shows and recording them for a month or two. Next I will set it up at their house and re-do the guided set up. I will be able to program it via the Internet with TiVo Central in the future. Once they start using it I bet they will get hooked.

As a gift, it will be more exciting if it has 40 hours their favorite shows.

Don't forget that your gift, when prepared this way, leaves the recipient able to purchase value-added services in the future using the credit card that you activated it with. That's as much a reason for the many complaints here as the requirement of the credit card for activation is itself.

Posted by: Bigg

Activate them with your own CC for the person and put their lineup in and everything, and if you have the same programming service, you could even record stuff for them, as was said above.

Posted by: bitTraveler

I thought of a possible workaround for those wanting to give TiVo as a gift and not subject the recipient to a credit card request, themselves to future charges or expose themselves to possible cc number theft. Wouldn't it be possible to use one of the one-time use numbers most credit card companies now provide? I believe you can set it up to have a maximum credit limit of $1.

Hope that helps!

bit

Posted by: Gai-jin

I've never heard of anyone but paypal offering these. Where have you seen them?

I've also used the visa gift cards in this case that they sell at the local mall. I got some for christmas, and always end up with a dollar or two left. If I need to use a card that shouldn't be charged but is required for some reason, I use that card.

Gai-jin

Posted by: bmgoodman

OK, I must pile on and say that Tivo really needs to fix this soon. I do NOT want Tivo storing my CC # for all eternity on the CHANCE that I might want another service... someday. I do not want to give a gift where the recipient must have a CC to use it, even though it has already been paid for. And I do not want that gift to, someday, charge against MY credit card when the recipient makes a selection from a new Tivo screen that asks if they want to purchase a new Cadillac on-line via Tivo! (OK, last example is extreme, but the point remains.)

Tivo, FIX THIS.

Posted by: bitTraveler

quote:
Originally posted by Gai-jin
I've never heard of anyone but paypal offering these. Where have you seen them?

I've also used the visa gift cards in this case that they sell at the local mall. I got some for christmas, and always end up with a dollar or two left. If I need to use a card that shouldn't be charged but is required for some reason, I use that card.

Gai-jin

I know Citibank has them available. They call it a Virtual Account Number (VAN). I believe Amex and possibly Discover have something similar as well. And, of course, PayPal.

bit

Posted by: chris frolic

I will also add that I've now cancelled plans for 2 gift Tivos because of this rediculous policy.

Posted by: Leon WIlkinson

Ok, Would it be possible for TiVo Inc. to come up with a verification card which the gift giver gives along with the TiVo. TiVo would get on file, from gift giver the recipient's name, address and what have you. Then they call and give the card number then verify the info.

If pet names and other genric info was allowed, I would think it would be pretty secure.

Posted by: gregm

quote:
I believe Amex and possibly Discover have something similar as well.

Amex recently cancelled their service, unfortunately.

At first, this sounded like a reasonable thing, you have to provide the credit card number you used when you purchased the unit, to ensure that you're the person who purchased the unit, and that you didn't hijack the UPS truck or something, but since it's any old random credit card, I agree that it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Judging from Stephen's post, this decision probably went something like this: "Okay, we've been working on this for weeks, but can't get rid of this stupid credit card requirement, and we need to launch the system soon. What do we do" "Well, I guess we just leave it there for now, and hopefully we'll be able to fix it before people start complaining about it."

Not an enviable position.

Posted by: Crrink

[Dave Chapelle[Rick James]]
I wish I had four hands.....so I could give this policy FOUR THUMBS DOWN! :down::down::down::down:
[/Dave Chapelle[Rick James]]

TiVoOpsMgr, I have 2 TiVo's that I bought lifetime on. What is the easiest way to determine if TiVo has my CC# on file? Who do I have to call to get you guys to erase it - sorry, but I don't trust you guys with it, and you don't need it anymore.

I'd like to add that I was planning on buying 50 lifetime gift subscriptions, but that would be a lie - suffice it to say that this policy may well affect my future buying decisions, and in case you couldn't tell, that's not a good thing.

TiVo just got cheap enough to become a great house warming present - this asinine policy diminishes that tremendously.
I hope you're happy with your "Umm, gee, that's just the way it is" attitude. :rolleyes:

Posted by: TiVoOpsMgr

Well, I definitely am hearing this feedback loud and clear.

Please believe me when I say we did not enter into the current arrangement lightly or casually or without reason. We went through a serious amount of meetings and we were worried about exactly the kind of reaction we're seeing here. But due to the architecture of our business systems, the credit card was a strict requirement that we could not eliminate as much as we did work to do so.

In reviewing the notes from the meetings, the biggest reason for us to require the credit card was fraud protection. There are numerous examples of companies that have faced serious threats from crackers trying to reverse engineer their gift sub numbering system. (Just think about the resources this forum brought to bear in trying to crack the 3.0 backdoor password...) By requiring a credit card, if the gift sub number turns out to be stolen or forged, we have a backup method of billing.

Nonetheless, because of the feedback here, I will re-open this issue with the team and report back as to the feasability of removing this requirement.

Thanks for taking the time to comment. (Now tell me how you REALLY feel!) Your comments really do make a difference. I hope we can all have a meeting of minds in this area.

Best regards,
Stephen

Posted by: TiVoOpsMgr

quote:
Originally posted by Crrink
TiVoOpsMgr, I have 2 TiVo's that I bought lifetime on. What is the easiest way to determine if TiVo has my CC# on file? Who do I have to call to get you guys to erase it - sorry, but I don't trust you guys with it, and you don't need it anymore.

As is legally required by the terms of our relationship with our bank and our credit card processor, we maintain the credit card in our business system associated with your orders for the period of time required to service your account. There is no option to erase your credit card from the order while your order is not canceled (although you can replace it with a different credit card if you like -- you can do so yourself using Manage My Account). As far as I am aware, you are the very first person to request that this information be removed.

This data storage policy is as true for TiVo and TiVo's business system as is it for any company with an enterprise financial system that manages a billed service. Similarly, your bank, the credit card company, and the credit card processing agency all maintain a record of your credit card being associated with your service orders -- and they will do so for effectively forever, and keep numerous backups that I doubt could all be tracked down and changed. You cannot erase your credit card info from their records of this order either. (This too is the practice doubtless employed by your phone company, your cell phone company, your ISP, AOL, DIRECTV, and any other service provider from whom you have ordered a service using a credit card.)

I have no doubt that the restaurant you ordered Chinese food from ten years ago still has your credit card information on file. It is a standard business practice to keep it, and practically impossible to erase it. If ever audit issues arise, records are simply required. And furthermore, of course, it is the job of your bank and your service providers, including TiVo, to protect this information. This is a job that we at TiVo take EXTREMELY seriously.

Without going into the details of our security practices, I can say that in the five and a half years that we have been taking orders, we have had zero security breaches of credit card information. Like any service provider, we guard your order information with the best security possible. The information is stored in a single system, and the credit card information cannot be retreived from our system via any system that is on the internet at large.

Please feel free to contact me privately if you want to discuss this issue further.

Best regards,
Stephen

Posted by: OLdDog

TiVoOpsMgr,

Thank you for your response. I am pleased that you are reopening this issue and look forward to the resolution.

However I have one more question: Your last post on this was "Today 03:27 AM" so; DO YOU EVER SLEEP???

Posted by: dobbie1

quote:
Originally posted by TiVoOpsMgr
Well, I definitely am hearing this feedback loud and clear.

By requiring a credit card, if the gift sub number turns out to be stolen or forged, we have a backup method of billing.

Best regards,
Stephen

Thanks Stephen for the response taking it back to the table for discussion.

However, the above statement seems strange. If the sub-number is stolen or forged TiVo wants a method for billing, but what if the recipient is totally unaware that the number is invalid, do you automatically bill the credit card they provided? What if they did not want to purchase the TiVo service and were only using it because it was a gift. They are going to get billed like it or not. Would not the better option be just to cancel the TiVo service once the fraud was detected? I would assume that it doesn't take that long to detect an invalid number. It is my belief that if someone is out to try and steal service in this manner, it is just a easily to give you a credit card number for validation then immediately cancel the card.

I sincerely hope this issue is analyzed in detail on what really is gained by requiring a credit card for validation for gift subscriptions.

Regards

Posted by: island1

TiVoOpsMgr

There are a lot of arcane accounting, system and identity verification reasons for this, and unfortunately that's the way it is. We did try to remove that requirement during the design of this program, but there were too many issues and ultimately we were forced to launch as we did.

Taken from the same mold of "TIVO customer service" that you don't (can't) get a pro-rated fee for canceling service. I believe that too was related to the way the billing system was setup. This from a software designer!

Posted by: Mysteryman

The permanent CC for the lifetime of product is a disappointing development. Does anyone know if Replay that requires this?

Posted by: TiVoOpsMgr

quote:
Originally posted by OLdDog
However I have one more question: Your last post on this was "Today 03:27 AM" so; DO YOU EVER SLEEP???

I'll sleep as soon as our system is perfect and our customers have no complaints. ;)

Posted by: TiVoOpsMgr

quote:
Originally posted by island1
Taken from the same mold of "TIVO customer service" that you don't (can't) get a pro-rated fee for canceling service. I believe that too was related to the way the billing system was setup. This from a software designer!

Island1, I'm not sure if you're saying that I said this, or if someone from customer service told you this. My apologies in either case -- it's certainly not that we cannot offer pro-rated refunds. We used to do so, and made a conscious policy change almost two years ago:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-v...8313#post928313

Best regards,
Stephen

Posted by: TiVoOpsMgr

quote:
Originally posted by dobbie1
If the sub-number is stolen or forged TiVo wants a method for billing, but what if the recipient is totally unaware that the number is invalid, do you automatically bill the credit card they provided? What if they did not want to purchase the TiVo service and were only using it because it was a gift. They are going to get billed like it or not. Would not the better option be just to cancel the TiVo service once the fraud was detected? I would assume that it doesn't take that long to detect an invalid number. It is my belief that if someone is out to try and steal service in this manner, it is just a easily to give you a credit card number for validation then immediately cancel the card.

dobbie1, we certainly would contact the customer before billing, and certainly can and would shut off service. But by that point it's too late -- we've already lost money in telecom fees, and lost time in trying to research the fraud. Having the credit card be required is a great deterrent against fraud. For example, it may be quite easy for (say) an ambitious sixteen-year-old to spend a week cracking gift subscription numbers to try to steal service. But having to also steal a credit card would deter that same 16-year-old, plus add more serious criminal penalties when they are caught. Someone's identity is now on the line.

Not too long ago I was involved in a fraud case where the customer registered as "Bozo T. Clown," had the hardware sent to a public address, used a fake address for activating service, and was only caught because the Feds caught up to him on his stolen credit card. I think our accounting department's fraud team gets a lot busier if we drop the credit card requirement on the gift sub side.

But, I'll be meeting with the team this week and will let you know what we can do about this requirement.

Best,
Stephen

Posted by: kensteele

I am a lifetimer and I just checked into my account. What happens when my credit card expires? Will you force me to enter a new credit card? If I do not, will my lifetime service be affected? Does anyone know the answer to this....

Posted by: TiVoOpsMgr

Ken, you won't be affected at all when your credit card expires on a lifetime contract.

Posted by: Crrink

quote:
Originally posted by TiVoOpsMgr
...SNIP...
I have no doubt that the restaurant you ordered Chinese food from ten years ago still has your credit card information on file. It is a standard business practice to keep it, and practically impossible to erase it. If ever audit issues arise, records are simply required. And furthermore, of course, it is the job of your bank and your service providers, including TiVo, to protect this information. This is a job that we at TiVo take EXTREMELY seriously.

Without going into the details of our security practices, I can say that in the five and a half years that we have been taking orders, we have had zero security breaches of credit card information. Like any service provider, we guard your order information with the best security possible. The information is stored in a single system, and the credit card information cannot be retreived from our system via any system that is on the internet at large.

Please feel free to contact me privately if you want to discuss this issue further.

Best regards,
Stephen

Sorry, I wasn't clear - I didn't mean that I want or expect TiVo to erase any record of my credit card number, I meant that I don't want my CC# saved on the Manage My Account, or any other user accessible portion of your website. I just checked, and you guys have my Amex number linked to both my DVR's. They're both product lifetime, you don't need the numbers, and I'm more than happy to put up with the hassle of having to re-type my CC# should I choose to buy anything from TiVo in the future.

I have no doubt that your internal systems are as secure as possible. The Manage my Account portion of your website is not so secure. Not only can you be hacked, but I could be hacked, and for that reason, I'd prefer to not have my CC# on file when there is no need for it.

If it's not possible to delete the credit card numbers, can you not override your system to make it accept a dummy CC# for the time being? All 9's or something like that?

Posted by: TiVoOpsMgr

Crrink, one thing to note is that Manage My Account doesn't actually know your credit card number. MMA knows to ask our financial system for the first digit and last four digits to show under your billing history. And our financial system only provides that data, nothing more. There is no process that would ever allow your full credit card to be accessed, stored or displayed on MMA. Does that help reassure you?

It's not really possible to use a dummy card, since our financial system knows how credit card number checksums work. But if you still want to go further, please contact me privately and I can talk about one or two possible options.

Best regards,
Stephen

Posted by: dswallow

quote:
Originally posted by TiVoOpsMgr
Crrink, one thing to note is that Manage My Account doesn't actually know your credit card number. MMA knows to ask our financial system for the first digit and last four digits to show under your billing history. And our financial system only provides that data, nothing more. There is no process that would ever allow your full credit card to be accessed, stored or displayed on MMA. Does that help reassure you?

It's not really possible to use a dummy card, since our financial system knows how credit card number checksums work. But if you still want to go further, please contact me privately and I can talk about one or two possible options.

It's easy enough to generate a credit card number where the checksum test will pass; and simply using an expiration date of the current month will end any chance any system tries to use it within the next 31 days, at most.

Posted by: TiVoOpsMgr

Doug,

True, but actually we also authorize new cards for a small amount to make sure they're valid. (We do this without billing or settling, so no amount is actually charged.) I should have said so in my previous post.

--Stephen

Posted by: dswallow

quote:
Originally posted by TiVoOpsMgr
True, but actually we also authorize new cards for a small amount to make sure they're valid. (We do this without billing or settling, so no amount is actually charged.) I should have said so in my previous post.

Can't you work around this whole issue by allowing a specific number to mean "no credit card" and adding a few lines in the code that runs it through the authorization to allow it without testing it as well as letting it use an expiration date already passed? It's not pretty, but doesn't seem like it's any worse than leaving expired real credit card numbers in the system.

Posted by: TiVoOpsMgr

Doug,

In theory we could create a workaround such as you describe, but then we're back to the other issues I mentioned about why we require a credit card (having no fraud protection, the issues involving the way our business system works for recognizing revenue, and the way the accounting rules for gift subs have to be implemented in order to establish a business relationship with a customer).

I've passed on the feedback from this thread to team members and we are continuing to meet on the subject. I'll let everyone know what we can do.

Per Natron's issue from page 1, we will definitely work on clarifying the screens to make it more obvious that the credit card will not be charged.

Thanks again for everyone sharing their feedback on this matter.

Best regards,
Stephen

Posted by: Crrink

quote:
Originally posted by TiVoOpsMgr
Crrink, one thing to note is that Manage My Account doesn't actually know your credit card number. MMA knows to ask our financial system for the first digit and last four digits to show under your billing history. And our financial system only provides that data, nothing more. There is no process that would ever allow your full credit card to be accessed, stored or displayed on MMA. Does that help reassure you?

It's not really possible to use a dummy card, since our financial system knows how credit card number checksums work. But if you still want to go further, please contact me privately and I can talk about one or two possible options.

Best regards,
Stephen

Well, if you are saying that it is not possible for someone to hack the MMA portion of TiVo's site (or logon after hacking me to get my user ID/pwd), and then use the information there to buy something, or somehow get the complete CC#, then yes, that would reassure me. But, is that what you're saying?

I actually think I am going to be buying a TiVo for a housewarming gift, so maybe I'll test your system and see if I can order it without providing any new information or not.

Then I have to decide whether to give the new 40 hour as a gift as is, or give my upgraded 60 hour with lifetime as the gift........any hints if USB2.0 will be enabled in the near future would really help with that decision! :)

Posted by: TiVoOpsMgr

quote:
Originally posted by Crrink
Well, if you are saying that it is not possible for someone to hack the MMA portion of TiVo's site (or logon after hacking me to get my user ID/pwd), and then use the information there to buy something, or somehow get the complete CC#, then yes, that would reassure me. But, is that what you're saying?

Yup, that's what I'm saying. MMA doesn't know your CC. The only thing you can do without providing the credit card again is switch from Monthly to Product Lifetime, but that won't apply to your case. (MMA tells our financial system to bill the card on file in that sole case, and makes the request without ever MMA actually knowing the full credit card number.)

quote:
I actually think I am going to be buying a TiVo for a housewarming gift, so maybe I'll test your system and see if I can order it without providing any new information or not.

Thanks for choosing TiVo! Let me know what you find or if you have any further questions.

Posted by: J4yDubs

I'm coming in a little late, but I'd like to pile on as well. I was concidering a gift TiVo for my parents, but won't do it with the CC requirement. Please make an annoucement if this requirement changes...

John