TiVo Community Forums Archives - Replay's Commercial Skip

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Replay's Commercial Skip - How?
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Posted by: akv1070

The Replay 4000 advertises that it can skip commercials... neat feature, but how does it KNOW where a commercial is? I definately wouldn't pay the $2000 for the device though...

Besides, if you NEVER watch a commercial, how do you know about anyting? At least with TiVo you can go through a 4 minute commercial break at 30x and at least see if there is something you want to look at.

Posted by: hinsdale

The networks broadcast a datastream along with the audio/video that signals a commercial break and return to programming for the locals. The locals use this to facilitate their commercial insertions.

I did see an interview with an NBC executive regarding the Auto commercial skip being implemented by some A/V devices. He said that if it became prevelant that it was a matter of flicking a switch and it would be deactivated and the Autoskip feature would be useless.

Some VCRs have a different commercial skip feature that simply monitors audio/video for indicators of commercial interruption but these have not worked very well and have skipped portions of programming and just arent very reliable.

Posted by: BrettStah

quote:
Originally posted by akv1070:
The Replay 4000 advertises that it can skip commercials... neat feature, but how does it KNOW where a commercial is? I definately wouldn't pay the $2000 for the device though...

No idea of exactly how the Replay will do it, but the $2000 price is for the biggest model (320 hours). They start at $700 I think for a 40 hour model.

quote:

Besides, if you NEVER watch a commercial, how do you know about anyting? At least with TiVo you can go through a 4 minute commercial break at 30x and at least see if there is something you want to look at.

That's my thinking, too. I like to see, however fleetingly, what I'm skipping over. Movie promos, etc.

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Brett

Taliban motto: "If we can build a ladder to put a man on the roof, we can defeat the United States!"

Posted by: akv1070

quote:
Originally posted by hinsdale:
The networks broadcast a datastream along with the audio/video that signals a commercial break and return to programming for the locals. The locals use this to facilitate their commercial insertions.

Is this in the VBI data? If so, are modifications to TiVoVbi possible? Maybe not to entirely skip the commercials, but to FF at 30x, then play normally when it comes out of the commercial break?

Also, how would this work on stations like Comedy Central, or USA, TNT, etc, that aren't really networks that see much local advertising?

Posted by: embeem

quote:
Originally posted by akv1070:
Is this in the VBI data? If so, are modifications to TiVoVbi possible? Maybe not to entirely skip the commercials, but to FF at 30x, then play normally when it comes out of the commercial break?

Also, how would this work on stations like Comedy Central, or USA, TNT, etc, that aren't really networks that see much local advertising?

If someone can provide me with the technical specifications on where this is and what protocol it uses I'll certainly give a shot at patching tivovbi to support it http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

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Posted by: akv1070

Looking around for info on this (instead of working) I have discovered that they are DTMF tones in an audio sub-carrier.

(http://www.cableadinsertion.com/vdirect_5000_technical_description.htm all the way at the bottom, under 'headend description')

Assuming this subcarrier can be picked up/isolated by the TiVo, figuring out where DTMF tones are (I wouldn't guess you would even need to decode the content of the codes, just them being there at all should signal a break) should be simple.

I was under the impression that this would be located somewhere in the VBI/XDS data, but apparently I was wrong...

Anyone care to figure out what frequency these DTMF tones ride?http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Posted by: Bob Lafleur

Even if you can find the tones and figure out that a commercial is starting, how will you know when it's over? The tones signalling the start of a commercial may be passed through to the end receiver, but if there are any tones signalling the return the programming, they're probably not passed through.

Unless the initial tones somehow tell how long the commercial break will be.

I remember in the "early days" of cable, hearing DTMF tones often, but all of a sudden they stopped. I figured the cable head end was just filtering them out, or a new system was in place. Maybe they're just encoding them in a different way, now.

At any rate, no matter what the system, whether it's tones in the audio or sub-carrier, or data in the VBI/XDS, if enough devices use that info to block commercials, the TV stations could easily stop re-transmitting it, and your commerical skip would be no longer.

Posted by: tchapin

How would the networks know that people had enabled commercial autoskip if it's a hack? And even if some did, there's no way they could figure out how many people did.

I think your concern is overrated. TVs themselves now have commercial skip type features. You hit a button when a commercial starts, go watch another channel or channel surf, and the TV brings you back to your program when the commercials are done. Plus, this feature is in VCRs as well.

Who's to say that millions of people aren't using these features? Why haven't the networks gotten upset about them yet? Because they can't tell.

Todd

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!todd erases a red dot!

Posted by: stevel

Replay has licensed Thomson's (RCA) Commercial Advance feature, which is patented. If TiVo tried to use the same technique without a license, Thomson could sue them.

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Steve (Sony SVR-2000, 103+ hours, TiVoNET, Dish Network)

Posted by: Notes Guy

quote:

TVs themselves now have commercial skip type features. You hit a button when a commercial starts, go watch another channel or channel surf, and the TV brings you back to your program when the commercials are done. Plus, this feature is in VCRs as well.
Todd

I have a TV that does this, but it's in no way 'smart' - it's a simple 30-second skip. For every push it counts down 30 secs; at 00 it hops back to the channel you were on when you pushed Skip.

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“A 2000-pound bomb, no matter where you drop it, is a significant emotional event for anyone within a square mile” - DoD quote

Posted by: akv1070

I wonder if we could use the fact that most commercials start/end with a blackscreen, and commercials are usually noticably louder than the program?

I saw something once on discovery channel about commercials, saying that most networks use compression to make the commercials seem louder - I wonder if we could pick up on the qualities of that?

Posted by: Tasky

It is not the networks that make the commecial louder, it is the commercial maker.

There is a FCC limit on how loud a broadcast show can be. Most TV shows and movies use a mid range normally so they can have explosions and what not be louder. But commercials want to grab your attention. They make the whole commercial run at the loudest level allowed to grab your attention. That is why commercials always seem louder.

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-Tasky

Posted by: drewman

I worked for 10 years at various television stations (PBS for 4 and two ABC's for 6). I can guarantee that the television stations themselves aren't turning up the volume on commercials - there isn't time for that kind of tweaking while dubbing in or playing back commercials. Also, tv stations get complaints all the time that commercials are louder then the shows.

Most apparent is during soap operas - the young lass has just professed her love of the cross-dressing gardener in a whisper - time for commerical - loud music trumpeting newest and greatest soap to hit earth yet - it's a matter of context.

I know that PBS, ABC, CBS, and Fox had no way of telling affiliates when to run commercial breaks other than sending them approximate times a day before along with what 'bumper' would play right before local commercials start.

There isn't always black between the shows and commercials and if commercial skip starting working well, the networks could easily start doing cross-dissolves instead of dipping entirely to black. Sound level won't always work - I can think of 5 commercials off the top of my head that sound just like tv shows in their dialogue and music.

The only sure-fire way would be meta-data in the VBI or other means - The local tv station/cable channel could easily strip that information out of the VBI before sending it on the end user. No motive to pass it on the end-user.

I love my TiVo, but still stop and watch good and interesting commercials - free tv won't stay that way if advertisers think no one is watching...

My .00002 cents

drewman

Posted by: akv1070

Then I guess we are back to the original question, which is how does Replay do it?

There must be something we are overlooking, unless its just a readaptation of the 30-sec skip, or the commercial skip (never worked) found on some panasonic VCRs.

Posted by: Vectors Random

Now that I have TiVo, I never use my VCR. But I have a JVC which was uncanny at taking out the commercial. It looked for the black screen at the start and end of the commercial break. I would say that it worked correctly at least 95% of the time.

Posted by: biffhero

I would like to overload the record button for a +30sec thing. I can envision one of two ways for it to work.

1. If in play mode, pushing the record button (right now I get an error bong) will immediately jump 30 seconds forward, skipping back a few seconds to black frame like happens right now when you push play while Fast Forwarding.

2. If in play mode, pushing the record button will go into 3x Fast Forward mode, and will automatically press the play button (with less-than-usual rewind) after 30 seconds has passed by.

rob

Posted by: briangreul

I think the enter button would be a great place to overload this. If you press Enter by itslef while watching TV it will skip 30 secs.
-brian

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Wow Did I do that?

Posted by: akv1070

quote:
Originally posted by Vectors Random:
Now that I have TiVo, I never use my VCR. But I have a JVC which was uncanny at taking out the commercial. It looked for the black screen at the start and end of the commercial break. I would say that it worked correctly at least 95% of the time.

Any chance you have a spec sheet on that one? Or the model number? I think I may want to look into this...

Posted by: apnar

quote:
Originally posted by briangreul:
I think the enter button would be a great place to overload this. If you press Enter by itslef while watching TV it will skip 30 secs.
-brian

The enter button is already overloaded. If you press it while watching normal TV it works as a Jump and goes to the previous channel you were watching.

-apnar

Posted by: purple6816

It was so much easier back when TV was color and comericials were black and white.

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2 Philips DirecTiVo DSR 6000, 2.5, 35 hrs