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XTV / TiVO and satellite
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Posted by: ALanJay

I seem to remember in one of the US pages of this BBS there was some discussion a few months ago about the DirecTV version of TiVO - which has now been released at $399. The comments said that the reason the price would not be any more than the standard TiVO was that it didn't need to have a MPEG2 encoder - because the digital data stream was recorded direct to disk and the decoder was already a requirement of the set top box.

Here in the UK that is probably also true but having just had a quick look at all the comments about the current state of the TiVO 1.5.X software one has to wonder if one would like to purchase Pace and NDS's version 1 XTV product when it is released.

It certainly has some advantages as the compression is done by expensive commercial encoders at the broadcaster and an integrated solution is a nice idea but much of what TiVO sell their product on - the clever bits - doesn't seem to be part of the XTV offering at this time. Obviously we will only see when it is released.

The question that was running through my mind is how TiVO ended up associated with SKY while PACE and NDS (a company also owned by Sky Parent News International) had been pitching their XTV alternative for the previous 6-9 months (that was publically).

With the DirecTV unit in the US TiVO have a comparable box to the supposed XTV box coming out early next year the question is will they be producing a UK equivalent (the US DirecTV box is manufacturered by philips and sony).

ALan

Posted by: StephenR

You're right about the cost of integrated boxes being less because they don't need an MPEG-2 encoder - the box just records the bitsteam from the satellite. Apparently the XTV box will sell for Ł299.

The current problems with TiVo have convinced me to wait for the XTV box. I usually don't like waiting for new technology (I bought a multi-region DVD player before there were any UK discs) but the XTV system is due in the first quarter of next year so its not too long to wait. Whether the XTV boxes will have teething problems too though remains to be seen!

When you say that XTV doesn't have the "clever bits" of TiVo I presume you mean the ability to learn your preferences and record shows you might like automatically - well in fact XTV does do this. You can find out the full details at http://www.xtv.nds.com

TiVo's link with Sky is curious - I thought initially it was to stop TiVo making integrated systems with say ONdigital but it appears the deal with Sky doesn't exclude them from making integrated systems for another broadcaster. In fact, Philips are looking to release a PVR in the UK next year - as Philips currently make ONdigital receivers an integrated ONdigital/PVR would seem the obvious choice. The question is whether TiVo will be involved or someone else - ReplayTV perhaps?

Posted by: ALanJay

Thanks for your comments and your pointer to the NDS site. I am in the same position as you wondering if I should wait or not... Certainly an integrated solution has lots of advantages.

>>>>>
When you say that XTV doesn't have the "clever bits" of TiVo I presume you mean the ability to learn your preferences and record shows you might like automatically - well in fact XTV does do this. You can find out the full details at http://www.xtv.nds.com
<<<<<

This makes interesting reading and does imply that it will do some of the clever bits that TiVO does. Which is good.

>>>>>>
TiVo's link with Sky is curious - I thought initially it was to stop TiVo making integrated systems with say ONdigital but it appears the deal with Sky doesn't exclude them from making integrated systems for another broadcaster. In fact, Philips are looking to release a PVR in the UK next year - as Philips currently make ONdigital receivers an integrated ONdigital/PVR would seem the obvious choice. The question is whether TiVo will be involved or someone else - ReplayTV perhaps?
<<<<<<<

Philips are already a TiVO licencee in the US but that doesn't mean much.

Certainly an integrated OnDigital box would be interesting though apart from the lack of ITV and ability to easily change channel for recording I reckon the Sky service gives more and with less problems. Getting a signal that my Philips OnDigital box is 100% happy with is hard in my last flat a 6dB attenuator did the trick in the new one it doesn't but the problems are much less serious or frequent.

Control, quality and ease of operation.

Looks like an interesting time over the next few months.

ALan

Posted by: StephenR

Apparently there is an article about XTV in the November issue of "What Satellite" magazine. I'll try and get hold of a copy to confirm this, but the article supposedly says the following:

1. XTV system will cost Ł500 (no subsidy).
2. Fully integrated with Sky EPG so no need to download listings over the telephone.
3. Emails stored on hard drive using new software developed by OpenTV.

The price is a little higher than I had hoped, but it's worth it in my opinion. There's a good article about the DirectTV/TiVo system at http://www.techtv.com/freshgear/rev...3008756,00.html and in their opinion the integrated system is the way to go - and that's without the 2nd tuner being active! I'm just hoping ITV and ITV2 come to Sky digital soon so that I can get rid of my ONdigital box which I only bought so that I can watch Letterman.

Posted by: bignoise

quote:
Originally posted by StephenR:
I'm just hoping ITV and ITV2 come to Sky digital

By the summer, apparently.

Posted by: StephenR

quote:
Originally posted by bignoise:
By the summer, apparently.

Where did you get that information from? I doubt very much ITV will put a service on Sky digital any time soon because digital ITV and ITV2 is one of ONdigital's main selling points. And putting all 20 or so ITV regions on satellite would cost too much. Perhaps Sky/BBC/ITV could consider the system they use in America i.e. charge $5 per month for local channels via satellite. DirectTV offer over 100 local channels in America so I think a charge of about Ł3/month for local BBC and ITV regions in the UK would be sufficient to cover the cost of the necesssary transponder space.

Posted by: xneilj

Why wouldn't ITV want to be on Sky digital? At the moment they're the only channel missing from Sky digital and I've heard that as Sky's subscriber numbers go up, then number of people bothering to switch back to check ITV as part of their channel surfing/EPG info is starting to drop. Of course they'll still watch Coronation Street, etc. but the audience for 'new' programmes is slightly reduced.

Remember, they're a commercial channel and they make more money when more people are watching. There's obviously the issues with carrying so many regional variations (one of ITV's selling points to advertisers - they can target specfic regions as necessary) and I believe (though this is a guess) this is the main reason ITV are not on Sky at the moment. The reason OnDigital can carry ITV ok is because there have regional digital terrestrial transmissions so it's not different from analogue terrestrial in that sense. Sky don't really have that option from 36,000km up in the sky http://www.avsforum.com/ubbtivo/wink.gif

Anyway, I too have heard that ITV will be on Sky digital next year but don't know if it's defintely true.

Neil.

------------------
See the TiVo UK FAQ at http://tivoukfaq.addr.com

Posted by: bignoise

quote:
Originally posted by StephenR:
Where did you get that information from?

Someone who works at ITV. They themselves were only repeating what had been announced in the press. (Although it didn't get a lot of coverage)

quote:
Originally posted by StephenR:
I doubt very much ITV will put a service on Sky digital any time soon because digital ITV and ITV2 is one of ONdigital's main selling points. And putting all 20 or so ITV regions on satellite would cost too much.

Despite your doubts, I'm afraid they've already announced it. :-) ITV have certainly tried to stick with ONdigital but at the end of the day they can't put up with losing viewers in 5 million or more Sky homes.

quote:
Originally posted by StephenR:
Perhaps Sky/BBC/ITV could consider the system they use in America i.e. charge $5 per month for local channels via satellite. DirectTV offer over 100 local channels in America so I think a charge of about Ł3/month for local BBC and ITV regions in the UK would be sufficient to cover the cost of the necesssary transponder space.

Absolutely not - can you imagine the uproar that would cause? (I pay my TV licence.. etc.) - and in any case the BBC is already providing an excellent regional service via DSAT.

What you're also overlooking is that ITV is not the huge multi-region company that it used to be. ITV now is effectively controlled by three major companies (Carlton, Granada, and STV) and upcoming government legislation will clear the way for them to finally each take each other over and produce one single unified ITV company.

Also don't forget that for nearly the past 11 years ITV has been trying to unify itself so that people think of "ITV" rather than Central, or Granada, or Meridian, etc etc etc - look at ITV now and your local region's name hardly gets a mention. It's a very small step from there to watching a satellite-delivered service that only calls itself "ITV" - most people wouldn't notice the difference.

Posted by: StephenR

I'm surprised any announcement that ITV would definitely be on Sky digital next year hasn't been more widely reported. Do you know if they will go for a full regional service or will it be like the BBC? If they are going to put all regions on how will they afford it (will Sky help with the cost in which case subscriptions may rise anyway) or if not how will they deal with advertising and the numerous regional variations?

Either way, I'm looking forward to returning my ONdigital box :-)

Posted by: dallardice

I can quote chapter and verse - Charles Allan, who is Chair of Granada Media, announced at the Guardian Edinburgh Television Festival in August that ITV would be on SkyDigital during 2000. I don't think it was widely reported because it was at a TV industry bash, and not through a press release or similar.

Posted by: bignoise

quote:
Originally posted by StephenR:
[B]If they are going to put all regions on how will they afford it (will Sky help with the cost in which case subscriptions may rise anyway) or if not how will they deal with advertising and the numerous regional variations?[B]

You're forgetting that ITV is an advertiser-funded channel. If ITV doesn't get viewers, its income drops. Not being on satellite is actually already costing it money. Put like that, and bearing in mind the hundreds of millions of pounds of advertising revenue that ITV deals with over the course of a year, even the cost of one entire Astra transponder to carry three or four super-regions (e.g. STV Group, Granada Group, Carlton Group) at a couple of million a year is distinctly small beer.

It could be done quite easily just like the BBC service, except split across parent company lines rather than regional lines. It makes sense for there to be a 'national' version of ITV, with different ads sold by the different parent companies. (So Carlton earn the money from ads sold on the Carlton DSAT service, which might be available to viewers in Wales, London, the Westcountry and the midlands. After all, terrestrial viewers in those regions already get 'Carlton', there's very little difference between the regions except the local news - which can be handled in a similar way to how the BBC do it - they tell you to switch back to terrestrial!)

Posted by: StephenR

Thanks for those responses - most informative. I do remember Charles Allan saying something like "a package of ITV channels will be available on Sky digital next year (2001)" but I think people interpreted that in different ways e.g. he could just mean CITV, ITV Gold etc. Anyway, it certainly will be interesting to see what happens.

Posted by: dallardice

I was at the meeting, and he definitely said "ITV" - the story about a range of channels dates from another interview or meeting.