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tivo: watch differently
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Posted by: linh

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Posted by: MacPrince

In a heartbeat they would...Apple Legal jumps on anything that looks or sounds similar to an Apple product or ad campaign. I mean, look at the E-Power...need I say more?

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"Creation is messy; you want genius, you get madness, two sides of the same coin."--Steve Jobs

Posted by: TheMerk

Here is a funny Apple story: In the early days of the company, when they wanted to name it Apple, Apple Records (The Beatles people) were asked if they would mind. Apple Records said no, as long as Apple Computer never did anything to do with music. Opps. Apple Computer came out with iTune and quickly found a lawsuit claiming damages at their doorstep.
*Disclaimer: This is all from memory, I probably got a lot of facts wrong.*

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-TheMerk

Posted by: Alexander

There's quite a history between Apple Corps (Beatles) and Apple computer...

Quite some time ago (System 7 era), Apple made a bunch of new alert sounds to ship with the MacOS. One was called "Xylophone". Turns out that it conflicted with their agreement with Apple Corps, so it was promptly renamed to "Sosumi", and exists on new Macs to this day. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

There's also a detailed legal document that lists how third parties can use the Apple and Macintosh logos on compatible products. Turns out that most products can use the names "Apple" and "Macintosh", but anything music-related is prohibited from using the word "Apple" or the Apple logo anywhere. (They can still use "Macintosh", of course.)

Alex

Posted by: HTH

quote:
Originally posted by MacPrince:
In a heartbeat they would...Apple Legal jumps on anything that looks or sounds similar to an Apple product or ad campaign. I mean, look at the E-Power...need I say more?

Then why haven't they gone after Dodge for their "Different." campaign?

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http://www.war-of-the-worlds.org/tivo/HTH.gif
IANAL

Posted by: trainman

quote:
Originally posted by HTH:
Then why haven't they gone after Dodge for their "Different." campaign?

They probably would if Dodge changed their slogan to "drive different" or something like that.

But IBM has never gone after Apple, as far as I know, for making a veiled reference to their old "think" slogan, and they're even in the same business.

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trainman is Jim Ellwanger, with a Sony SVR-2000

Posted by: RexTrout

I don't think that the IBM "Think" thing was ever used in an advertising campaign. It was an internal slogan/brainwashing.

(I'm an ex-IBM employee).

Posted by: arjay

quote:
Originally posted by linhpham2:
Would Apple, Inc. sue for copyright infringement if Tivo, Inc. decided to have a giant "watch differently" banner next to their already paid celebrity advertisers?

Yeah but isn't the key to Apple's slogan the use of the word "different"?

Mac's want to be thought of as different, not something which is just used differently.

It doesn't make sense to say watch different with TiVo; but watch differently makes sense. Perhaps that avoids the copyright problem altogether?

[This message has been edited by arjay (edited 08-08-2001).]

Posted by: DBCooper

quote:
Originally posted by linhpham2:
Would Apple, Inc. sue for copyright infringement if Tivo, Inc. decided to have a giant "watch differently" banner next to their already paid celebrity advertisers?

The Apple phrase is actually "Think different," and therefore uniquely poor English. I hardly think they could sue someone for using English properly.

Posted by: HTH

quote:
Originally posted by arjay:
Perhaps that avoids the copyright problem altogether?

Trademark, not copyright.

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Dodge different.
"OW! Sumoma bith!"

Posted by: bgreen5

quote:
Originally posted by TheMerk:
Here is a funny Apple story: In the early days of the company, when they wanted to name it Apple, Apple Records (The Beatles people) were asked if they would mind. Apple Records said no, as long as Apple Computer never did anything to do with music. Opps. Apple Computer came out with iTune and quickly found a lawsuit claiming damages at their doorstep.
*Disclaimer: This is all from memory, I probably got a lot of facts wrong.*

Actually, many years ago, Apple provided a piece of software called "Apple Midi Manager" (some of us oldtimers remember MIDI... which is still widely used... from long before the days of MP3). Apple Corps (Beatles) sued over this.

I'm not sure, but I believe Apple Corps was finally out of business by the time iTunes was rolled out.

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Posted by: mattack

quote:
Originally posted by TheMerk:
Here is a funny Apple story: In the early days of the company, when they wanted to name it Apple, Apple Records (The Beatles people) were asked if they would mind. Apple Records said no, as long as Apple Computer never did anything to do with music. Opps. Apple Computer came out with iTune and quickly found a lawsuit claiming damages at their doorstep.
*Disclaimer: This is all from memory, I probably got a lot of facts wrong.*

Yes you got it wrong (and I've read the followups). You're way over a decade late about the suit.

One of the reasons for the suit is the Ensoniq chip that was built into the GS, which can do high quality music. (It's the same chip that was on one of the IBM clone cards -- I think SoundBlaster -- for years and years.. I thnk they still use a later version of the chip.)

The agreement between Apple Corps and Apple Computer said that Apple couldn't do anything regarding music (as a very vague description). There's also a music program disc with GS/OS that Apple didn't ship until after the suit was settled.

Posted by: Fofer

quote:
Originally posted by DBCooper:
The Apple phrase is actually "Think different," and therefore uniquely poor English. I hardly think they could sue someone for using English properly.

I've seen arguments on both sides of this.
"Think Differently" is instructing someone to alter the way they think, whereas "Think Different" suggests that the person think about the concept of differentiation.

Perhaps Apple needs some form of punctuation to make it clearer?

Think: Different
Think... Different.

Who knows. Either way, the slogan did it's job, it got people talking, thinking ... and buying iMacs.

[This message has been edited by Fofer (edited 11-12-2001).]

Posted by: DBCooper

quote:
Originally posted by Fofer:
Perhaps Apple needs some form of punctuation to make it clearer?

However they punctuate it, they can hardly claim that "watch differently" is an infringement.

Posted by: HTH

quote:
Originally posted by mattack:
One of the reasons for the suit is the Ensoniq chip that was built into the GS, which can do high quality music. (It's the same chip that was on one of the IBM clone cards -- I think SoundBlaster -- for years and years.. I thnk they still use a later version of the chip.)

Speaking of the IIgs, I'd heard that Apple also had to go into negotiation with Coca-Cola to get prior permission to be able to name their two types of desk accessories "New Desk Accessory" (NDA) which was accessed from the pull-down menus only under 16-bit applications and "Classic Desk Accessory" (CDA) which was accessed from the Control-Command-Escape text menu accessible everywhere, as they were close to Coca-Cola's then-products New Coke(TM) and Classic Coke(TM). (Coke had apparently locked up trademark rights for all things prefixed "Classic".)

But IANAL and may have it wrong.

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There is no spool.

Posted by: dmdeane

Perhaps there is something to be said for taking advantage of Apple's penchant to sue; let them do TiVo's advertising for it. Run the "think differently" slogan (assuming it is sufficiently different to stand up in court) and let Apple sue. Instant free publicity.

Better yet, steal from Microsoft's UltimateTV add campaign as well, by using the split screen shot. Show someone at work, doing usual workaday things, while the other screen shows the TiVo controlling the cable box throughout the day, switching channels to record a large number of different TV shows. Then show the person come home to his TiVo (ending the split screen), collapse on his couch, and with a sigh of relief, click on "Now Playing". Then an end screen shot with the TiVo-dude logo and the slogan "watch differently".

Just a thought.

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dmdeane@rcn.com

Posted by: HTH

quote:
Originally posted by dmdeane:
Instant free publicity.

Court costs, legal fees....

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http://www.war-of-the-worlds.org/tivo/HTHb.gif

"[E]ven the unauthorized home time-shifting of... programs is legitimate fair use."
-- Sony Corp. v. Universal City Studios, Inc., 464 U.S. 417 (1984)

Posted by: dmdeane

quote:
Originally posted by HTH:
Court costs, legal fees....

I thought it was implied clearly enough that I was referring to "free" as "net" free, not free of all costs altogether. I.e., the free publicity would outweigh the legal costs (most of which TiVo is already bearing anyway, simply to have enough of the right kind of lawyers on retainer).

Given the legal precedents, Apple's case would not go far. Apple's legal strong arm tactics only work against small businesses and individuals who can't afford to go to court in the first place, much less keep a team of lawyers on retainer. Apple (and other corporations) counts on such people giving up when hit with the first legal notices, no matter how flimsy the legal case.

Sonic Blue seems to think that the benefits of their products outweigh the legal costs. Legal costs only seem scarey to those of us who live from paycheck to paycheck.

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dmdeane@rcn.com

Posted by: HTH

quote:
Originally posted by dmdeane:
Legal costs only seem scarey to those of us who live from paycheck to paycheck.

The Golden Rule: He who has the Gold makes the Rules.

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http://www.war-of-the-worlds.org/tivo/HTHb.gif

"[E]ven the unauthorized home time-shifting of... programs is legitimate fair use."
-- Sony Corp. v. Universal City Studios, Inc., 464 U.S. 417 (1984)