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Drive Image?
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Posted by: TestBox

Does anyone have a drive image on a CD of a Phillips 14hr that they would be willing to share?

Has anyone thought of making an ISO and posting it to a FTP server somewhere?

Posted by: Worf

Perhaps you should read the following threads first:

* this one
* and this one

You'll find the answers right there and then.

(BTW, now the number of people posting this question seems to have risen - did a bunch of people ignore the command to backup their drives? Or is it one person trying to post under 2 million accounts? I guess the revenge of the impatient is coming http://www.avsforum.com/ubbtivo/smile.gif ).

Posted by: TestBox

Actually, I haven't made any mods yet. I was trying to avoid having buy another drive right now. If I had a CD image, this would eliminate the need.

As far as warez. Wouldn't free use cover this? If I own a TiVo, can't I have a backup? What is the difference between a drive or a CD?

As far as size. I read that the image would fit onto 1 CD from a virgin TiVo. So what if it is 650 megs. Linux distros are larger than that and people download those all of the time.

I don't see how this would anger TiVo any more than altering the units to do things they weren't intended to do.

Posted by: warewolf

<IANAL>

Ok, One word for you. No.

The stuff on the tivo's hard drive is *NOT* just linux. If it was "just linux" then all you'd have is the kernel. No programs, not even init.

The system software has some GNU utils, (ok, lots of gnu utils) but there's also tivo proprietary software on there aswell that you do not own. You have a license to use it. That's all.

On your "warez" note- Do you download Windows ME off the net? Oh, but you should be able to becuase you already have a copy. .... Do you download a copy of OSR2 when you have OSR1? Hell no. You pay for it. If you get a different version then that is *exactly what* is on your tivo, you have an illegal unlicensed copy of the tivo software. Tivo will spank you in court for that.

</IANAL>
[edit: tyop squatting]

[This message has been edited by warewolf (edited 01-30-2001).]

Posted by: Clark

I do not fall into the I want it and its my right to have it catagory, BUT I would really like to have a single disk backup of v1.3. I don't believe its possible because of bandwidth considerations to have one posted on the net. What I hope is that Tiger and company release their partition shrinking utility so that I can revigintize (is that a real word) my 1.3 and burn it to cd. That would free up my backup drive for the v2.0 backup. Why would I want a backup? Just in case there was something nasty in 2.0 that hasn't been discovered yet, and I want to strike off on my own (I'm sure that's not a 'correct' reason, but it would make me feel better).

Posted by: nextguard2

quote:

You have a license to use it. That's all.

On your "warez" note- Do you download Windows ME off the net? Oh, but you should be able to because you already have a copy. .... Do you download a copy of OSR2 when you have OSR1? Hell no. You pay for it. If you get a different version then that is *exactly what* is on your tivo, you have an illegal unlicensed copy of the tivo software. Tivo will spank you in court for that.
[/B]

If I buy a computer and it comes with Windows (and it is a legit copy with real license) and then Windows crashes (whether its my fault, the hardware's fault or unknown) I think we have an analogous situation.

Say a dll is crashed and it is also corrupt on my CD or other backup. I would not feel a bit guilty copying it off another CD or another computer.

Say my whole Windows CD is scratched, I would not feel at all bad about using another as long I still have my legit license. After all I paid for the right to use that software on that computer. And it Microsoft comes in to do a license audit, I will pass with flying colors.

So if you need a backup of TIVO and your manufacturer has not provided a restore disk then I say, feel free to borrow one as long as you have legit license.

Or suppose a company is licensed for 25 copies of office. They lose one disk. No one would question using another disk as long as they did in fact pay for Office one for each computer.

If TIVO is really taking a different position then they are not being reasonable.

------------------
NextGuard = Paul from Atlanta

Posted by: kagato

I don't think Tivo is actually being active about hunting down ISO images. Certainly the forum mods and forum "personalities" will of course discourage this. And certainly, it's not legal. However, considering that the only person who would find an ISO of 1.3 useful is someone who already owns a Tivo. I can't image them dedicating any resource to a problem that really isn't a problem per se.

If you did get a nasty gram from Tivo about a FTP, it will probably be because someone from the forum was looking for brownie points and alerted them. This creates due diligence issues for Tivo legal people. In the end probably costing Tivo money because there are legal liabilities created by not addressing KNOWN copyright violations.

I'm far more willing to bet your ISP is going to put the smack down when you start using up bandwidth rather than Tivo though.

I'm not a lawyer
Your Mileage May Vary

Posted by: Scutter

quote:
Originally posted by kagato:
I don't think Tivo is actually being active about hunting down ISO images.

Whether you get caught or not isn't the point. The point is that it is not legal. So don't do it.

FP

------------------
http://tivo.pineaus.com

Posted by: TiVoholic

Now that we've all reviewed the legal situation...

Has there been any progress made on a tool that can construct a virgin image from a non-virgin TiVo drive? Or more generally, something that just zaps recorded programs out of the image so that it's a more easily backup-able size?

------------------
- TiVoholic

Posted by: shifrbv

You guys SUCK!

Either you guys are tivo employees, or just stupid ....

1) Obviously only people that might find this software useful - tivo owners. This distribution would be covered by fair use.

2) Even if Tivo could take someone to court about distribution of this software they would have to prove damages.

( One of my friends got busted by FBI in college for distributing software. One day at 6:30am, 8 FBI folks showedup at hit doors.
Fortunately all he had at that time was Amiga. After wasting 10,000s man
hours FBI had to drop the case, because proving damages in court
would have been impossible. Yes he had all the software on his drives.
But he could not use it. FBI spent months trying to contact every software manufacture, see if they wanted to participate - NONE. And this was the case with distributing software.)

I don't know if it is practical to post 950M image. This would be a good reason why not. But copyright bullshit??? Hacker with the "code". Let's not post any cracks or serial numbers on the web - it is illegal. D http://www.avsforum.com/ubbtivo/smile.gif

What I don't understand is: why is this hackers forum = kiss company ass forum?
Why people who post here soooo concerned about not hacking tivo?
Oh don't touch subs, oh I suggest you pay tivo monthly ( from the same people who paid lifetime), and volume of stupid suggestions about charging extra for bogus services like internet scheduler ( aka myreplay.com ).

Tivo is a great device but it does need enhancements.
1) TivoNet - is /was great project that adds networking features.
2) PAL - adding PAL converter
3) Tigers drive - adding multiple MFS partitions
4) ...

How about some new:

5) Make Skip to live/end of show button act like 30seconds skip,
and let's say if user holds 3 or more seconds then do skip 2 live. Tivo would not do this because of media companies investment / partners.

6) Ability to extend system menu, so we can have additional settings
like FF corrections params

7) Open MFS structures.

8) Tivo encrypter chip protocol

9) Tivo bios dump

10) Tivo myworld code

Brian

Posted by: Dunk

quote:
Originally posted by shifrbv:
You guys SUCK!

Either you guys are tivo employees, or just stupid ....

I'm still pretty new around here, but let me see if I can explain the "long-time" guys viewpoint. (Y'all check me on this and correct me if I'm wrong.)

Our little hackers club here is completely dependent upon TiVo's goodwill. Many of the guys here who've worked hard to dig into the TiVo's guts have had contact with TiVo employees and know that TiVo could shut down all our hacks with a simple software update.

TiVo monitors this forum closely and the attitudes and integrity expressed by the moderators and users are essential to our continued success here. Whether TiVo or the FBI could win a case in court is irrelevant. If we piss TiVo off, our hacked boxes stop working. It's that simple.

------------------
Philips 12Hour, Upgraded w/IBM 60GB
TiVo Vers. 2.1.0-Z15

Posted by: TiVoholic

I'm probably not the only one that isn't gonna give your post a fair chance because of such "turnoff" noise like...

quote:
Originally posted by shifrbv:
You guys SUCK!
.. you guys .. just stupid ..
.. bullshit??? ..
.. kiss company ass forum? ..

------------------
- TiVoholic

Posted by: shifrbv

>Our little hackers club here is completely dependent upon TiVo's goodwill.

This is what you think...

> Many of the guys here who've worked hard to dig into the TiVo's guts have had contact with TiVo employees and know that TiVo could shut down all our hacks with a simple software update.

They could or may be not. The fact is tivo benefits greatly from hacker forums. I don't think tivo would ever contemplate of shutting this down.

Despite what Tivolutionary claimes popularity of 14hours tivo, with 1000s sold in last 6month proves my point. I am willing to bet that 90% or so sold to users, who bought this unit with hope to upgrade. They may or may not do this, but I am willing to bet that one of the selling points was possibility to do so.

Some of my friends bought this unit just because of linux "device". Lock hacks - and tivo will go bankrupt.

> TiVo monitors this forum closely and the attitudes and integrity
> expressed by the moderators and users are essential to our continued
> success here.

No freedom, hacks are limited to what Tivo wants you too.

1. Tivo as a company has very little influence over me.
2. I have no problem goint Replay (btw I think is a better unit).
3. WinCE aspect of UTV is not bad either.

Brian

Posted by: Tiger

Do not kid yourself. TiVo is a CE device, not just a tech toy. They are targeting consumers who wouldn't even know what Linux was. They are not still in business because of hackers. If it came down to it, they would shut it down.

And there is a slight difference between having copyright software on your hard drive, and having it on a publicly accessible web site. Furthermore, TiVo has said that is something they consider a no-no and would go after.

And this isn't a kiss TiVo's ass forum. This is a forum about creativity, using a device beyond what was intended, and being inventive. What this is not is a war with TiVo forum. Once hackers got to work, the first move was theirs to war with hackers, or to silently let them keep it up. They chose not to war with us. We are merely returning the favor. If it came down to a war of us vs. TiVo, I'd leave. I'm not interested in a war. I left the network security profession because it was too much like a war. I'm interested in TiVo, and for the most part I'm happy with the way it is now. I do not see the hostility generated by stepping on a few toes as worth it to get at something I can live without.

Now on the other hand, if something were to happen to TiVo and we were left without service, I would be one of the first to step in and spill what I know in an effort to produce an alternative source of service, and possibly alternative software. But until that happens, I have no reason to do so.

Now as to cracks or serial numbers, posting serial numbers is not illegal, but it is stupid. If someone uses it illegally, you will be faced with the penalty. And you are quite hypocritical to say don't post cracks but do post myworld source. Uhhh, the reason cracks are illegal is you have to reverse engineer the software to get them. How do you expect to get the myworld source without reverse engineering, or doing something even more illegal? In fact, everything you suggested falls into the category of stuff that would involve illegal activities, AND stuff that would be dangerous to boot, since it would require altering the main system binary.

Finally, if you think Replay is better, why not go there, post their source code, their drive images, and such? It seems to me your only interest in TiVo is trolling the forum.

------------------
TMNBT Special Forces
Are we not men? We are TiVo!

Posted by: dpmitche

Oh why don't you all just play nice.

I would like a legal way to rebuild my TiVo in the event the hard drive fails.

Posted by: sjf

Then make a backup!

Posted by: shifrbv

Tiger,

->Finally, if you think Replay is better, why not go there, post their source code, their drive images, and such?

Simple answer: replay subscription is included into purchase price ( no hacks there ), replay has skip button, replay guide format is trivial, difficulties extracting video - ... hmm there aren't any, one can just use "cp". Now adding network card would be nice, but it is not as easy as tivo. Any other suggestings on hacking replay projects?

>? It seems to me your only interest in TiVo is trolling the forum.

My wife like Tivo better ( don't ask me why ), and I forced to use the thing. But I do miss Replay features.

>Do not kid yourself. TiVo is a CE device, not just a tech toy. They are targeting consumers who wouldn't even know what Linux was. They are not still in business because of hackers. If it came down to it, they would shut it down.

Hmm, that explains phenominal sales of 112 units. Considering 212 is only few bucks more one would think everyone would jump in on 212 with higher capacity.... How about Tivo PR that pushes word Linux. If they were agains hacking why would tivo advertise this fact.

Brian

Posted by: Paulers

I agree about the copyright on the Tivo image should be respected but he is correct to say that there is a bunch of Tivo butt-kissing going here.

------------------

[ Unix is very Friendly ...
... just pickier about who it makes friends with. ]

Posted by: kibo

There is a "fair use" clause in copyright law.

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.html

Granted, it's subjective. Granted, you wouldn't want to have to defend yourself against a lawsuit. Granted, I am not a lawyer, nor am I giving you any legal advice. K?

Generally, you are legally allowed to make copies of copyrighted material under certain circumstances. You are not allowed to profit from making the copy, you are not allowed to diminish the market value of the copyrighted work, the number of times you make a copy is an issue, etc., etc. Copyright owners hate for you to use these rights; they hate for you to even know you have these rights. They pretend to be generous by allowing you to make one copy of your software for backup/archival purposes. But, in the end, the copyright law was written with the absolute intent of furthering public access to copyrighted material.

I'm not saying fair use applies here. But the blanket statement that "copying copyrighted material is illegal" is outrageously false.

[This message has been edited by kibo (edited 03-10-2001).]

Posted by: tmtech

You know, that's just not a fair response.

FACT:
There is no Tivo supported way to make a backup of your unit.

So what does a consumer do if their drive fails after the warrenty period
?

As many have already pointed out I think this would be covered by fair use (I'm defiantly not a lwayer!!). Having an image available for backup would be a good thing for tivo and it's customers....

quote:
Originally posted by sjf:
Then make a backup!

Posted by: sjf

quote:
Originally posted by tmtech:
You know, that's just not a fair response.

FACT:
There is no Tivo supported way to make a backup of your unit.

So what does a consumer do if their drive fails after the warrenty period
?

As many have already pointed out I think this would be covered by fair use (I'm defiantly not a lwayer!!). Having an image available for backup would be a good thing for tivo and it's customers....

The bottom line is that Tivo is not going to do that. They don't want to, and they don't have to. So your options are:

1) Make a backup - and by opening your case, void your warrantee.

2) Commit to the official repair stance. That is, you can get a replacement under warrantee for free. After warrantee service is $100 (gee, about the cost of a backup drive!) providing the case has not been opened.

3) If your unit fails, and you don't have a backup, and you don't want to (or can't) pay for service, find somebody locally that can copy their drive for you. Gray area legally!

Officially, that's it. Like it or not.

Posted by: Worf

Ahem. IANAL, but I have interest in the law, especially the copyright/fair use sections (I like copyleft, I like open source, I like emulation, blah blah http://www.avsforum.com/ubbtivo/smile.gif ). The "backup/archival" clause (in title 17, section 117 [edited: I originally said 112] IIRC of the U.S.C.) itself is *VERY SPECIFIC*!

You're allowed to backup and archive the original *computer software*, provided said backup/archive is an *EXACT* copy. I.e., ROM->ROM. CD->CD. Hard drive->Hard drive (I wonder if a 15gb hard drive backed up to a 20GB counts as an exact copy...). You're not allowed to move ROM->Hard drive etc, unless you can legally prove that you need it for what you do (i.e., developer). More information can be found in Section 2 of the EmuFAQ

Nintendo won in 1984 on this (I can't remember the specifics). Connectix won in 2000 on this (Connectix had a legal reason to have the ROM in another form).

Re Fair Use: that's only allowing you specific rights for specific purposes - namely, for academic research, journalism, and other forms. It is illegal to copy as a whole a copyrighted work [definition of copyright] (even in the name of academia) -- but under fair use, it's legal to *quote* parts of the work. Thus, it's legal to post 1 chapter of a book if you're reviewing it to make an example, but illegal to post the whole book.

BTW, software is licensed, not sold. Unlike a book, which you purchase wholly (except that the content is protected under copyright), you're given full rights -- if you feel you can write a better ending, you can rip out the old ending, write your ending, and use that. You can even sell your ending as a variation of said book (as long as you keep within copyright guidelines - i.e., having a title of "And alternative ending to xyz" could land you in trouble, since xyz is a copyrighted work, and you're using the title of said work), as long as you don't sell the complete modified book (because you'd be violating the copyright of the original book). However, you can't do the same to software, because it isn't sold -- it's licensed. While you own the physical paper, cardboard, plastic and aluminum that you bought, the bits themselves you don't. Unlike a book, though, if you don't like one part of a software program, you can't modify it. You can't even sell your modifications, without the blessings of the company that made it. And more -- depending on the license agreement that came with your software. And the DMCA makes life even more complicated.

[This message has been edited by Worf (edited 03-11-2001).]

Posted by: Tiger

quote:
My wife like Tivo better ( don't ask me why ), and I forced to use the thing. But I do miss Replay features.

Maybe because everyone has different opinions? I like TiVo better, but I don't question that you like Replay better. My questioning it doesn't make your reasons any less valid to you, nor does your questions make her reasons any less valid to her.

quote:
Hmm, that explains phenominal sales of 112 units. Considering 212 is only few bucks more one would think everyone would jump in on 212 with higher capacity.... How about Tivo PR that pushes word Linux. If they were agains hacking why would tivo advertise this fact.

Might have to do with the huge mark-downs they did to clear the channel of the old outdated model they don't make anymore. In 2000Q4, you could almost always find a 112 for $99 if you bothered looking.

As to Linux, they are no fools. Linux has been a big ticket item lately. A year ago, people who didn't even know what UNIX is were investing in anybody who said they used Linux... They just had to say "We have a server in the corner that nobody uses.. but it runs Linux!" and investers would be all over them.

------------------
TMNBT Special Forces
Are we not men? We are TiVo!

Posted by: Wild_One!

Gee if people must have a backup on cd or a drive then I think that they should make one on their own. I do understand that some people did make one but for some reason or another it did not work out for them ex. bad cd or bad copy. But saying that just because you have a Tivo that gives you the right for someone else to break their license just so that you can go on enjoying your Tivo is crazy.

Linux may be free but Tivo changed it to suit their needs, So it is not free now.

Micro$haft is not free also, do you think that they would give you a copy of W2k if you asked them the same thing hmm I doubt it.

Remember these cool toys that Tivo (Philips, Sony) made for us did not come with an install cd, nor did they intend for us to hack it but I guess that if enough people cross the line they will stop it and I know that the people who put all the time and effort in to this fun hobby will realy love what people like you are doing. As the newer units are comming with locked drives and locked to the unit purchased. more and more anti pirating features comming soon..

And I am sure that most of the people here said to make a backup on another drive and use that as the installed one with a "B" drive just to be safe so that if a problem does show it's ugly face that you can go back to the drive that come shipped with your unit to restore from.. If it costs too much to make a backup to another drive then maybe you should not be buying a $300 drive to put in there.

And to answer your question about the image go here to get it
http://www.avsforum.com/ubbtivo/Forum6/HTML/001841.html
had to do that http://www.avsforum.com/ubbtivo/smile.gif

------------------
Now if I can just figure out how to pause my work... or fast fwd to the end of the day

Posted by: ASM

quote:
Originally posted by Dunk:

Our little hackers club here is completely dependent upon TiVo's goodwill. Many of the guys here who've worked hard to dig into the TiVo's guts have had contact with TiVo employees and know that TiVo could shut down all our hacks with a simple software update.

If TiVo does decide to do that, they will ends up just like Netpliance. The company that made iOpener and decide to block all possible hack. The outcome? The company is in deep trouble now, sold all its inventory and stop the production of the iOpener...

As for every hacker proof method they have came up, none works.

~ASM

Posted by: technothemage

I have to agree with ASM on this one. One of the reasons why I purchased a tivo instead of a replay or nothing at all was because I knew I could hack it to add more space and because I knew this forum existed.
If I was not able to add more space myself (30 hr unit + 60 gig maxtor) or If I was not able to do a manual recording, or if I was not able to record from an alternative input I would have returned the unit right away without thinking twice about it. I made sure to confirm I could do these things before I purchased it and if any of those options go away its a deal killer for me and my tivo will be put up on ebay in no time flat. (well maybe I will wait to see if anyone hacks out a solution to whatever was changed).

I think Tivo has been great with this community and I would not want to contribute to making them want to go to war with the hacker community. But downloading an image of a tivo because your backup is bad or for some other reason is well within what should be allowed by law. For those arguing that what we are doing is licensing the software therefore we can not make copies. Well we are licensing MS windows but if something happens to it we can reinstall. Does not matter where you get the image from, the install from, you are licensed to run the os on one machine. Same thing with tivo only the do not give you the option to reinstall or backup. You say I cant download an image because of copyright laws and I say I can because I am licensed to the software.
Which of us is right? Only one way to find out and I dont want to go to court to find out who. I have my backup and hope it does not die. But I think you should be able to download an image or obtain a smaller one if you want. You are licensed (since someone has made such a point that we do not own the software but we are allowed the use of said software) to use the software on your device. And who is living in the technological dark ages where downloading megs/gigs is something people dont want to do. It still amazes me when people say things like its too much trouble to download a gig over the net.
Whats so hard in selecting download and walking away or continuing to use your computer. People have been known to do multi hour/day downloads since 300 baud modems. When I have to send frames of an animation over the net it can take hours/days.. but its cheaper, easier, and usually faster than fedex'ing a hard drive.

/rant rage off

just my .02

Posted by: mchappee

It seems to me that the 10 or so folks that are dead-set against the posting of an image are being a bit naive. They're more than happy to give advice that can potentially destroy the device, then, when the worst happens, duck behind a veil of disclaimers, FAQ references, and (worst yet) self rightousness. It's obvious to me that Tivo should take the initiative and supply a virgin ISO for their 'A' drives.

Why? After all, the folks "in the know" are telling us that Linux/hackers/undergrounders are not important to Tivo. If we overstep our bounds they will "shut us down". That's a bunch of hogwash. The PVR market is getting more and more crowded every day. Tive is not going to toss away it's sole advantage, it's hackability. That's why I bought it, that's why my two friends bought it, that's why my mother bought it. I believe that hackers ARE important to Tivo. Probably just as important as Joe Tubejockey. It's their main advantage over the likes of Microsoft.

If I'm correct, and hackers are an important draw, then Tivo should make some kind of statement by making an ISO available. That will further encourage hacking because the price of failure will be much lower.

Now, to be fair to Tivo, they shouldn't have to jump through hoops supporting hacked Tivos. I agree that the warrantee should be broken with the sticker. You hack your Tivo at your own risk. However, providing an ISO would make it easier to save ourselves from a hack gone bad. Backups fail, get over it already. I'm a sysadmin, I've seen backups fail (or worse, restores).

Would the release of an ISO harm Tivo? Nope, not in the least. Anyone making use of the ISO would have already voided their warrantee. You can't use this software to make your own Tivo-a-like (OK, but it's no easier). Copyright doesn't carry the must-enforce baggage that trademarks carry, so they are not losing their rights. So, what? What do they lose?

Matthew

Posted by: sjf

So another newby, registered today, thinks that everybody else is naive. Read the last years worth of posts regarding this very subject.

Again, bottom line, tivo isn't going to do it.

If you feel self-justified, go ahead and post the code yourself. Then come back here and advertise that you have posted the code somewhere online.

I'll sit back and watch the fireworks. -- Bet Tivo's lawyers can outspend yours!

Also, am NOT arguing against doing it -- just don't believe you will be allowed to.

Posted by: Worf

Heh. I wonder what hosting service will let you post a 1-2GB file http://www.avsforum.com/ubbtivo/biggrin.gif. From my experience, what happens is that unless it's a company posting the large files on purpose, the site usually gets shut down within a few hours (I'm virtually certain a number of people will download it even if they don't need it).

Of course, the problem is, TiVo's gonna have a lot more Morons if this happens too, since I'm sure no matter how well we warn people, they're gonna try the backups on the wrong units...

Posted by: ZOQ

Watch out guys ,this might just be the FBI trying to infiltrate this forum to see if there is anything illegal happening here.
So be very carefull !Cheers!

------------------
QOZ

Posted by: Paulers

quote:
Originally posted by Worf:
Heh. I wonder what hosting service will let you post a 1-2GB file http://www.avsforum.com/ubbtivo/biggrin.gif.

You could get creative and use nntp! http://www.avsforum.com/ubbtivo/smile.gif Think of how many parts you would have to grab to put it back together again.

------------------

[ Unix is very Friendly ...
... just pickier about who it makes friends with. ]

Posted by: Worf

The only problem with NNTP is that, well, we'd forever be sending reposts because all NNTP servers are leaky... I only found one server that has good retention, but awfully leaky. And I have one that gets all parts of a post always, but only retains posts for a day.

Plus, it's kinda hard to say to someone - "May I have an image?" "news:alt.binaries.get.your.tivo.image.here", and wait 3 months for someone to repost it http://www.avsforum.com/ubbtivo/biggrin.gif.

Posted by: mchappee

sjf had this to say:
>So another newby, registered today, thinks that everybody else is naive.

Yeah, I just signed up. What, should I pay my dues by asking a bunch of stupid questions first?

>Read the last years worth of posts regarding this very subject.

It doesn't take an historian to have an opinion on this subject. This argument has been around since the days of the Homebrew Computer Club.

>Also, am NOT arguing against doing it -- just don't believe you will be >allowed to.

I never said anything about me or anyone other than Tivo posting the image. Did you just see the "New Member" tag and spit out a canned reply?

Worf had this to say:
>Heh. I wonder what hosting service will let you post a 1-2GB file

Where did that number come from? A Tivo-posted image would be about 100 megs bzipped. They're not going to include any demo video or bs like that. 100 megs on my cable modem is a 20 minute download. That is certainly not unheard of. A simple web-based authentication would ensure that the downloader was a Tivo owner (yeah, yeah, I know).

ZOQ had this to say:
>Watch out guys ,this might just be the FBI trying to infiltrate this >forum

Please. Let me guess, Season Pass to X-Files? Me to, BTW.

Anyway, folks, the point seems to have flown over your heads. I'm advocating Tivo to supply an image. If nobody advocates then Tivo will never react. Why should they, nobody's asking them to?

If you guys have a problem with my actual post, then please reference the part that irks you and present a rebuttal. I don't mind debating this issue, and I think it will be very useful.

Matthew

Posted by: Worf

100 Megs?! Now you've really not read the bulletin boards AT ALL!

A TiVo image is *NOT* 100 megabytes. In fact, the smallest around is 600 megabytes, and I believe these are 1.2 images (*MORON* alert!).

The smallest image created fit on 2 CDs, around 1GB, by having the video hacked out and the sectors zeroed. Currently, that program/technique does not exist, because the MFS Data partition is very finicky. In addition, there's a 512MB MFS Application partition (contains links and other important data) that has to be backed up, and the last bit of the MFS Data partition (containing the resources your TiVo uses). If any of those resources are missing (and it has happened in the boards), your menus and whatnot go funky, rendering your TiVo into an unusuable state.

Now, you can get a 100 MB image. That is doable. However, this is a useless image if your TiVo drive died, since it assumes you have all the resources and other stuff all ready to be used (basically, an image of the first 9 or so partitions).

Posted by: mchappee

>100 Megs?! Now you've really not read the bulletin boards AT ALL!

Sure I have, or we would not be having this conversation AT ALL!

>The smallest image created fit on 2 CDs, around 1GB,
>by having the video hacked out and the sectors zeroed.
>Currently, that program/technique does not exist,
>because the MFS Data partition is very finicky. In
>addition, there's a 512MB MFS Application partition
>(contains links and other important data) that has to
>be backed up, and the last bit of the MFS Data
>partition (containing the resources your TiVo uses).
>If any of those resources are missing (and it has
>happened in the boards), your menus and whatnot go
>funky, rendering your TiVo into an unusuable state.

That's 1G uncompressed. The zero'ed portion will compress down to a couple of bytes (the header will take more space). The MFS partition, which will also be zero'ed with the exception of structural placeholders (perhaps) will shrink down to practically nothing. 100 Megs would be easy to achieve. If you're not a Linux/FBSD/etc user then you have been missing out on bzip.

>Now, you can get a 100 MB image. That is doable.
>However, this is a useless image if your TiVo drive
>died, since it assumes you have all the resources
>and other stuff all ready to be used (basically, an
>image of the first 9 or so partitions).

We could get the 100M anyway, but with Tivo's help (since I'm advocating their direct involvement) we could probably do better.

Matthew

Posted by: sjf

quote:
Originally posted by mchappee:

sjf had this to say:
>So another newby, registered today, thinks that everybody else is naive.

Yeah, I just signed up. What, should I pay my dues by asking a bunch of stupid questions first?

no, you should pay your dues by searching, and reading the old posts about this subject

>Read the last years worth of posts regarding this very subject.

It doesn't take an historian to have an opinion on this subject. This argument has been around since the days of the Homebrew Computer Club.

Correct - read them! (read the posts about this subject HERE)

>Also, am NOT arguing against doing it -- just don't believe you will be >allowed to.

I never said anything about me or anyone other than Tivo posting the image. Did you just see the "New Member" tag and spit out a canned reply?

Uh, Tivo aint gona doit. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. It's been discussed for well over a year now. They read these groups. If they wanted to do it, it would have been done by now. You think this is a new idea? READ THE F'N GROUP!

[/B]

Posted by: mchappee

>Uh, Tivo aint gona doit. Been there, done that,
>got the t-shirt. It's been discussed for well
>over a year now. They read these groups. If they
>wanted to do it, it would have been done by now.
>You think this is a new idea? READ THE F'N GROUP

Are you a frustrated adult or a 12 year old? I know that they read these groups. I stated the opinion that they should release an image. If more people would state the same opinion maybe something would happen. But I see why it's not happening. There's *******s like you that dismiss the post outright and bitch about it being discussed before. Then jump all over the poster with the sorry reply "READ THE F'N GROUP". You have nothing valuable to add so you repeat the same thing over and over: read the group, read the group, read the F'N GROUP. Ya know, it was people like you, combined with the spammers that killed nntp news.

Get bent.

Matthew

Posted by: Tiger

Otto, isn't it about time this thread gets closed? It's getting a bit hot in here.

As someone who has been around the block a few times, and has a TiVo and loves it, and has even contributed to this forum, I've seen this before. Nobody is naieve. But there are new posters who don't know all the history of TiVo and hackers.

When people first started hacking TiVo (At which time I will admit I was not around, but I did come a few months later) it caught TiVo by surprise. People were taking their boxes, and adding drives to them! Internally, we have gathered they were delighted. It is another selling point, even if they can't advertise it as such. However, TiVolutionary, AKA Richard Bullwinkle, AKA TiVo's head evangalist and (ex?) webmaster, warned the hacking community that, while TiVo didn't have any official position on the hacking, they also didn't want it to be something that would cost them money. They also could not officially support it, due to liability reasons, and the fact that the hardware is not designed to be consumer upgradable. (Ever notice the power supply is not protected? It can have high voltage running through it, even when it's off) So while they may occasionally throw us a bone by making the software play nicer with us, they will not spend significant, if any, effort to test to make sure an upgrade doesn't screw us over.

So everybody was happy.

So as you can see, for them to release an image, they would not only be acknowledging the hacking community, they would be actively supporting them. This would also be encouraging people, in the legal eye, to open up their hardware to use the restore. Since the hardware is not safe (Notice the warning stickers on the back?) they do not want to do this, as they would then become liable should anything happen. However, when we open it on our own, to do something they don't publicly acknowledge, we are liable if we do anything to it.

Now please stop calling everyone naieve. Nobody is naieve (Not can they spell :P) just maybe a little inexperienced in the forum or short tempered. (And I don't mean that as truth, not an insult) New people come by all the time and thing they know everything about hacking TiVo, and they come up with ideas that have already been debated, and a good reason against it has been found. Now, I don't mean this to beat down ideas, because occasionally new ideas do come around. But people who have been here awhile get tired of seeing the same ideas coming up all the time, and can get a bit short tempered.

Edit: Oh yeah, one thing I forgot. I also don't recommend posting your own image. TiVo does not like people stepping on their toes. They have already gone after someone for using the domain name tivoupgrade and using the TiVo logo for an upgrade service. Fortunately said person was willing to work with TiVo and get things cleared up. RB has been very nice in letting us police ourselves. But should that fail, he will step in and police us, and he won't be as nice as we are. We will see more strict and general restrictions about what we can't do. Likely nothing explicitly that we can, just the implication that if he didn't say we can't, it's okay. Oh, and he has stated that posting TiVo software is something to not do. (No thread ref handy ATM)
------------------
TMNBT Special Forces
Are we not men? We are TiVo!

[This message has been edited by Tiger (edited 03-16-2001).]

Posted by: d18c7db

quote:
Originally posted by mchappee:
>100 Megs?! Now you've really not read the bulletin boards AT ALL!

Sure I have, or we would not be having this conversation AT ALL!

>The smallest image created fit on 2 CDs, around 1GB,
>by having the video hacked out and the sectors zeroed.
Matthew

OK people stop spreading misinformation when you have no understanding of the matter. The smallest image of a TiVo drive is shown below. With a lot of effort you could prolly shave a few more megs but that 300Mb file (partition 11) ain't going down any more than that.

PS ignore the file dates http://www.avsforum.com/ubbtivo/smile.gif

code:
H:\Philips&gt;dir
 Volume in drive H is TiVo Backup
 Volume Serial Number is BD7A-7E66

 Directory of H:\Philips

18/01/2001  10:08       &lt;DIR&gt;          .
18/01/2001  10:15       &lt;DIR&gt;          ..
14/10/2002  17:52                   72 hdc.gz
14/10/2002  17:53                  359 hdc1.gz
17/01/2001  20:33           45,128,409 hdc10.gz
18/01/2001  02:11          324,143,013 hdc11.gz
14/10/2002  17:53                2,072 hdc2.gz
14/10/2002  17:53              339,003 hdc3.gz
14/10/2002  18:05            4,191,340 hdc4.gz
14/10/2002  18:12                2,072 hdc5.gz
14/10/2002  18:13              338,875 hdc6.gz
14/10/2002  18:08            4,464,446 hdc7.gz
14/10/2002  18:17            1,711,655 hdc8.gz
14/10/2002  18:11            5,760,416 hdc9.gz
              12 File(s)    386,081,732 bytes
               2 Dir(s)               0 bytes free

Posted by: Tiger

I would like to counter that, actually. The file size could very well go down. But not for current models. There is a lot of video on partition 11 that TiVo no longer uses. Some people still have interstertials. Also, for reasons I can't explain (And not because I don't know, if you get my meaning) the animated backgrounds on current models are larger than they need to be, with significant wasted space.

But with currently available models, yes, that is correct, 300 megs is as small as you'll get - I too have (completely seperately, on my own, so it's not like we are both using the same flawed approach) gotten my 30gb backup down to between 300 and 400 megs. It doesn't get any smaller than that.

------------------
TMNBT Special Forces
Are we not men? We are TiVo!

Posted by: sajf

quote:
Originally posted by mchappee:
Yeah, I just signed up. What, should I pay my dues by asking a bunch of stupid questions first?

>Read the last years worth of posts regarding this very subject.

It doesn't take an historian to have an opinion on this subject

And it doesn't take an opinion to to be possessed of wisdom.

"The best rules to form a young man, are, to talk little, to hear much, to reflect alone upon what has passed in company, to distrust one's own opinions, and value others that deserve it." - Sir W. Temple.

-Simon

Posted by: sjf

quote:
Originally posted by mchappee:

Are you a frustrated adult or a 12 year old? I know that they read these groups. I stated the opinion that they should release an image. If more people would state the same opinion maybe something would happen. But I see why it's not happening. There's *******s like you that dismiss the post outright and bitch about it being discussed before. Then jump all over the poster with the sorry reply "READ THE F'N GROUP". You have nothing valuable to add so you repeat the same thing over and over: read the group, read the group, read the F'N GROUP. Ya know, it was people like you, combined with the spammers that killed nntp news.

Get bent.

Matthew

Your right. You've convinced me. Tivo should release an image. Happy now?

Interesting how, when we disagree, you start calling me names. Bet you are a democrat!

Posted by: mchappee

>Your right. You've convinced me. Tivo should release an
>image. Happy now?

Whatever. I guess this "discussion" is over. You can go back to answering posts whose subjects contain "HELP!!!!! I broke my Tivo!!!!".

>Interesting how, when we disagree, you start calling
>me names. Bet you are a democrat!

You make it sound like we were having a discussion, an exchange of ideas. Your contribution to the discussion was little more than "READ THE F'N GROUP".

Tiger:
Thanks, that was a very enlightening view into the situation. I disagree, of course, but that's to be expected. I seem to think that there must be a way for Tivo to release < 100M compressed image without exposing themselves to liabilities (although the power supply makes that a little difficult). Perhaps not, at least not yet. But pretty soon Tivo will have to leverage it's "hackability" to stay on top. Now that Microsoft is in the race, well, we're all aware that when that happens the best product doesn't necessarily win.

Guys, I love my Tivo. It's no longer considered a "luxury" item to me or my wife. There's no way that I could return to the mundane world of being in front of the TV at a certain time. Don't get me wrong, I'm not attacking the device or the company. Big Old However, I want to do some really cool things, and having an official safety net would be very nice. Despite what has happened here, I doubt that I'm alone on this.

Matthew

Posted by: pauldy

Just wondering I noticed in that backup there were backups of the swap partitions etc... Is that really needed and if so why? Isn't the swap initialized at each boot? Also has anyone tryed to run a diff on the partitions that are similar? I would think you could cut down those files by 2/3s. From looking at my tivo setup on a 30 hours single drive unit non upgraded SA. I have hda7 which seem to be a normal partition with minimal functionality. hda4 seems to be a diagnostic partition I would imagine running a diff on these two would give you a small patch to make one into the other. Am I way off on these assumptions I'm new to tivo hacking just yesterday I finally got up the courage to plug in the serial cables etc.. and set it up so I could telnet into it. I won't be pulling any screws until sept of 01 so if anyone knows I would appreciate a line. Until then I'll just keep digging around trying not to do anything dangerous or alter any files that I'm not positive about.

quote:
Originally posted by Tiger:
I would like to counter that, actually. The file size could very well go down. But not for current models. There is a lot of video on partition 11 that TiVo no longer uses. Some people still have interstertials. Also, for reasons I can't explain (And not because I don't know, if you get my meaning) the animated backgrounds on current models are larger than they need to be, with significant wasted space.

But with currently available models, yes, that is correct, 300 megs is as small as you'll get - I too have (completely seperately, on my own, so it's not like we are both using the same flawed approach) gotten my 30gb backup down to between 300 and 400 megs. It doesn't get any smaller than that.

[This message has been edited by pauldy (edited 03-16-2001).]

Posted by: Tiger

quote:
Originally posted by pauldy:
Just wondering I noticed in that backup there were backups of the swap partitions etc... Is that really needed and if so why? Isn't the swap initialized at each boot? Also has anyone tryed to run a diff on the partitions that are similar? I would think you could cut down those files by 2/3s. From looking at my tivo setup on a 30 hours single drive unit non upgraded SA. I have hda7 which seem to be a normal partition with minimal functionality. hda4 seems to be a diagnostic partition I would imagine running a diff on these two would give you a small patch to make one into the other. Am I way off on these assumptions I'm new to tivo hacking just yesterday I finally got up the courage to plug in the serial cables etc.. and set it up so I could telnet into it. I won't be pulling any screws until sept of 01 so if anyone knows I would appreciate a line. Until then I'll just keep digging around trying not to do anything dangerous or alter any files that I'm not positive about.

[This message has been edited by pauldy (edited 03-16-2001).]

You have hit on a few things you can do.

The swap isn't re-created each time, but you can get a program to create it from scratch. It does require some initialization, but just bare bones stuff. However, the stuff in swap is generally going to compress well.

Also, you can drop out the inactive partiton pair, and /var completely, since it DOES re-create that on startup.

It won't gain you much though. Most the bulk comes from partition 11. Your looking at 10-20mb savings probably.

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TMNBT Special Forces
Are we not men? We are TiVo!

Posted by: shifrbv

Ok, here is a question.

Are partition 10 and 11 married? Can I restore partition 11 from different
system as long as it has same size? Or if size even matters?

Brian

Posted by: Tiger

Partition 10 is structure and allocation.. Partition 11 is purely data, indexed by partition 10.. SO yes.

------------------
TMNBT Special Forces
Are we not men? We are TiVo!