TiVoCommunity.com
(c)opyright 1995-2005 All rights reserved
indexcheckTC
This area is a static history of posts in the TiVo Community Forum Archive.
This archive history was made for the simple indexing of search sites like Google.



Pages:1


Has anybody tried to upgrade to 2.0.1 twice?

(Click here to view the original thread with full colors/images)


Posted by: mishagray

After my box naturally upgrades itself, I would like to restore my virgin 1.3 backup. It is only 1.5 Gig compressed.

However, I don't want to spoil the "virgin"-ness of the backup. Therefore I would like to be able to get it to upgrade on the first call.

I read somewhere that the upgrade process is controlled by the serial number being on a list of upgradeable boxes. Therefore it would seem that if Tivo received two calls from the same serial number, that it would upgrade the box twice.

If I wait for my current Tivo to upgrade, then I know I will be on the list. Should I risk reverting to the virgin backup and upgrading again? The benefit is that I can get a nice small "virgin" 2.0.1 backup.

Anybody tried this yet with a box that is "on-the-list"? Anybody willing to try?

My other strategy is to wait until I notice that the Tivo box has finished a call and is "pending reset". I belive that this is the sign that the upgrade is about to happen. (Am I correct?).

I could then open drive and backup the partitions containing the 2.0.1 program info. (before it does the reset).

I could then try to:
1) Restore my virgin backup to a new drive.
2) find the linux partition containing the program files.
3) Copy over the 2.0.1 program data partition to my 1.3 backups file partition.
4) Boot the disk.

Should it work? I am forgetting something? (Seems like a lot of work, but then I don't have to use a good hard-drive as a backup device!)

I would rather have Tivo do the upgrade, but I need to know my strategy. If all works out, I should still be able to have a CD based Tivo backup (much cheaper than using a drive).



Posted by: Otto

At the present time, this can be done without any problems.

However, the problem starts when a bunch of people do this. Tivo pays for those phone calls, and the phone call is an hour or so. If enough people do it to impact Tivo's cost in a major way, they CAN disable it from doing multiple upgrades to the same serial. We don't want that to happen. So avoid upgrading more than once, if at all possible.


------------------
Otto, Supreme TiVoWarrior - Moderator - AVS Forum - Tivo Underground
"If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny. Consume you it will!" -- Yoda


Posted by: CheapGuy

How much money does it save TiVo when people use broadband to get their updates rather than a dial-up? Granted, the server side costs will be the same, but the won't have lease the local dial-ups.


Posted by: Otto

No idea.. But I'm not certain they can instantly tell if you're on broadband or not. Still, if you are, you can update much, much faster. http://www.avsforum.com/ubbtivo/smile.gif

------------------
Otto, Supreme TiVoWarrior - Moderator - AVS Forum - Tivo Underground
"If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny. Consume you it will!" -- Yoda


Posted by: cramer

quote:
Originally posted by Otto:
No idea.. But I'm not certain they can instantly tell if you're on broadband or not. Still, if you are, you can update much, much faster. http://www.avsforum.com/ubbtivo/smile.gif


I didn't know UUNet sold dsl or cablemodem connections. They can tell you aren't dialed up instantly.


Posted by: Fredlik

quote:
Originally posted by Otto:
At the present time, this can be done without any problems.

However, the problem starts when a bunch of people do this. Tivo pays for those phone calls, and the phone call is an hour or so. If enough people do it to impact Tivo's cost in a major way, they CAN disable it from doing multiple upgrades to the same serial. We don't want that to happen. So avoid upgrading more than once, if at all possible.



Otto, Thanks for a technically complete answer to this. I was wondering if the "double-upgrade" was not possible or just not the best thing (esp. in view of rollout costs, server load, etc.)

I "divorced" my 80GB Maxtor about two weeks ago and temporarily went back to my factory A drive. I'll just sit tight!




Posted by: [tron]

Wasn't this one of the main impetus' for the MORON(tm) or MORON II(tm) threads? Multiple upgrades are highly discouraged.

tron


Posted by: GBL

quote:
Originally posted by [tron]:
Wasn't this one of the main impetus' for the MORON(tm) or MORON II(tm) threads? Multiple upgrades are highly discouraged.

tron


Reason was a "invalid" version (wrong version for box) which would repeatedly (as on every call) download new version.

------------------
GBL (2.0.1)
unpaid volunteer, Tivo army


Posted by: Mike-W

UUNET does sell DSL.


Posted by: Richard Finegold

mishagray, there is no point in upgrading your backup if your replacement drive is "naturally" upgraded.

It's not like you're going to use it anytime soon. And even if you do, you can upgrade (er, it will presumably be upgraded) when you install it.

I recommend a 6 month (or more) moratorium on attempting to download a second upgrade if you don't immediately need it. At the very least, please wait until two weeks after the switch has been thrown for everyone to get it. Some time between then and talk of 2.5 (or whatever) going to beta. And also avoid the DirecTiVo upgrade timing (two tuners), whenever that occurs.

After all, you don't want to slow/spoil things for others, right?

All I ask is that you think through the pros and cons of upgrading your backup, and how time-sensitive the pros are.


Posted by: mishagray

The reason for trying to backup the virgin copy is so that I can get a "virgin copy" sized backup of 2.0.1. I really don't want to have to spend over $100 dollars just for a backup medium, for something that in all likelihood I should never need.

My current "natural" A drive has been in use for 6 months now and would take over 40 CDROMs to make a backup. Not very practical.

However I would like a single drive backup of 2.0.1 before I marry my only A drive to a second disk.

The issue is when: If I wait until after the upgrades are complete, then Tivo may not let me upgrade again. The longer I wait, the longer before I can add a drive.

I don't think a few double upgrades are currently going to affect Tivo's bandwidth. My understanding is the infrastructure allows for hundreds of people a night to upgrade. The rollout is artificially slowed to match the bandwidth of Tivo Customer Support, not the bandwidth of their servers. However I am completely aware that I am using "stolen" bandwidth, so I will use my best judgement.


Posted by: KermitTheFrog

Ohhh i get it now ..

You don't want to pay to properly support something that you did to your Tivo and are willing to risk tivo not allowing any of us to do it in the future because you think you'r the only one with the bright idea to just upgrade it more than once.. thus driving up Tivo's support costs?

It's perfectly clear now... your just being greedy.

Kyle



Posted by: 8_ball

quote:
Originally posted by Otto:
No idea.. But I'm not certain they can instantly tell if you're on broadband or not. Still, if you are, you can update much, much faster. http://www.avsforum.com/ubbtivo/smile.gif



By "on broadband" do you mean a PPP connection to the TiVo then out to the net with DSL or cable? Wouldn't your download speed be limited to the speed of the serial line between the TiVo and it's PPP peer? Or has someone figured out how to make the update cache to a local box at broadband speeds? Now that I've written that, I think publicizing this info could be bad, someone might use the information....unwisely.

------------------
"Do or do not, there is no try"
Philips 30hr v1.3
(waiting to re-upgrade to 108hr)


Posted by: Scutter

quote:
Originally posted by 8_ball:
Wouldn't your download speed be limited to the speed of the serial line between the TiVo and it's PPP peer?


I don't know about you, but I consider 115,200 to be much faster than 33,600.

FP


------------------
http://tivo.pineaus.com


Posted by: Richard Finegold

mishagray, I might've missed it but there are two assumptions I made:

1) That you'd already backed up drive A to CD. And tested it.
2) That you'd upgraded your TiVo somehow (done a marriage or Tiger's single drive upgrade).

I get the feeling that the second assumption is incorrect. Perhaps the first also. Can you tell us, once and for all? "Natural" is a bit ambiguous to me. It might help clarify why you see doing a 2.0.1 upgrade twice as advantageous.

From my reading, I still haven't seen you posting a clear benefit to having a 2.0.1 three-CD backup in addition to your 1.3.0 three-CD backup. If you do it early, you risk it being shut off for others (or perhaps even yourself). If you postpone it, you might never have to do it.

Scenario 1:
  1. Backed up 1.3 virgin drive to three CD's.
  2. Using virgin drive, bought new drive.
  3. Married drives in 1.3.
  4. Got 2.0.1, something crashed.
  5. Restored 1.3 from backup to single drive.
Scenario 2:
  1. Backed up 1.3 virgin drive to three CD's.
  2. Using virgin drive, bought new drive.
  3. Waiting for 2.0.1 before marriage.
  4. Got 2.0.1, something crashed.
  5. Restored 1.3 from backup to single drive.
Scenario 3:
  1. Backed up 1.3 virgin drive to three CD's.
  2. Using virgin drive, bought new drive.
  3. Waiting for 2.0.1 before marriage.
  4. Got 2.0.1, all ok.
  5. Married drives. Something crashed (immediately or later).
  6. Restored 1.3 from backup to single drive.
In each of these scenarios, the last step is restoring from backup. I completely fail to see how performing the last step early (before one of the earlier steps) in order to get an additional backup is helpful. I can see how it is hurtful.

I look forward to your response. I'd like to see a scenario from you (or anyone else, especially those planning to do it) where having the three-CD 2.0.1 backup in addition to a three-CD 1.3.0 backup is advantageous (i.e. the amount of expended time on your part is different somehow). I want to be enlightened.

And I'll put my money where my mouth is (er, fingers). If it's ok with Otto, $5 via PayPal to the first response to this thread who can show (with a spelled-out scenario) that doing what mishagray plans to do will save time for themselves in the long run (i.e. lower time expenditure overall). I make final determination. Be sure to PM me if you think you have a winner; I don't want to miss out.


Posted by: tomgrossi

I have a quick question. It seems to me that Tivo's only objection to multiple downloads of 2.0 is that is costs them money in the form of phone and bandwidth charges. I agree that Tivo should not be penalized for our stupidity, but rather than threaten to turn loyal customers' units into boat achors by banning seconf downloads, why doesn't Tivo make the simple rule that every download after the first one is surcharged. I assume Tivo pays about 5 cents a minute for long distance. There are bandwidth and server charges, too, which I imagine a negiligble on the margin but lets say 5 cents per minute to be generous. That's $6 per hour: make the upgrade cost $9.95 for each download after the first... doesn't that seem fair to both sides?


Posted by: Scutter

I imagine there are a few reasons. For example, in order to do so, they would have to draft an official policy on TiVo hacking (since hacked TiVo's are really the only ones that would download multiple times). Up til now, they've simply turned a blind eye on it. Were they to say "No hacking!", they would obviously piss a lot of people off. If they were to say hacking was OK, then they would lose a certain amount of control over their product.

------------------
http://tivo.pineaus.com


Posted by: bonehead

quote:
Originally posted by Scutter:
If they were to say hacking was OK, then they would lose a certain amount of control over their product.


More importantly, it would make their network partnerships less cozy. If their roadmap for the future leads where I'm thinking it does, then they're going to need to be as cozy as possible with the networks.

(You don't really think they went to all the trouble to strike deals with them just to bring us "TiVolution Magazine", do you?)


[This message has been edited by bonehead (edited 02-25-2001).]


Posted by: Scutter

quote:
Originally posted by bonehead:
You don't really think they went to all the trouble to strike deals with them just to bring us "TiVolution Magazine", do you?)


Dear lord I hope not.

------------------
http://tivo.pineaus.com


Posted by: bryanh

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Finegold:
And I'll put my money where my mouth is (er, fingers). If it's ok with Otto, $5 via PayPal to the first response to this thread who can show (with a spelled-out scenario) that doing what mishagray plans to do will save time for themselves in the long run (i.e. lower time expenditure overall). I make final determination. Be sure to PM me if you think you have a winner; I don't want to miss out.[/B]



Ok - I will use your first example

Scenario 1:
1 Backed up 1.3 virgin drive to three CD's.
2 Using virgin drive, bought new drive.
3 Married drives in 1.3.
4 Got 2.0.1, something crashed.
5 Restored 1.3 from backup to single drive.

I question the validity of the last step. If Tivo decides to only allow one upgrade per unit then you are now stuck with 1.3 on your machine.

Therefore getting a backup of 2.0.1 makes A LOT of sense. The reason for a virgin backup is to get it on 3 CD's instead of 30-40 CD's.

I hope this will answer your question.

Bryan




Posted by: cat_jesus

If you have 2.0.1 installed then the apps from 1.3 will be on the other app partition, IIRC. So if hda7 takes a hit and that's what 2.0.1 is on doesn't Tivo automatically switch the boot partition to point to hda4 when it encounters a lot of problems?

If this is the case then there is a legitimate reason for a single Tivo to upgrade multiple times.

Or I could be completely wrong.



------------------
Cat


Posted by: Skywise

I think the whole point here is annoyance level to TiVo..
If I double upgrade right now in order to get a small backup(and 50 other people do the same since it's such a great idea) then TiVo has a problem with it.
If on the other hand I let the 2.0 upgrade happen and 4 months down the road I blow up, that's when I restore my 1.3 and when I do my second 2.0 upgrade. (and it's doubtful 50 others will go boom at the exact same time)

So, it's a simple matter of maybe annoying them down the road, or for sure annoying them right now.

Course, my problem is different, I want to restore to single drive and wait for 2.0, then marry to a new 80 Gig drive I have on order. Problem is that I'm out of town for 2 more weeks and for all I know the silly thing has already upgraded itself. (crossing fingers it hasn't)
If it has upgraded by the time I get back, I guess I'll just have to put the 80 Gig on a shelf for a couple of months and then regress the TiVo after all the other upgrades are done.

Greg



Posted by: MannyL

The OP's intention was to do a virgin backup of 2.0.1 but if the system it is downloaded to was already running 1.3 the shows on it will be moved over to the 2.1 also so there will be no virgin 2.0.1 Unless I'm missing something at 1am

------------------
MannyL

Tivo OS 2.0.1
Philips 14 hour Upgraded
Cable no Converter box


Posted by: cat_jesus

Along different a different line of thought. When my 14 hr machine upgrades to 2.0.1 and my other doesn't, will it mess Tivo up if I dd 2.0.1 to my other machine. It would save Tivo a download and since I have to back the thing up anyway I could just go ahead and update the other tivo.

Also I have a friend(for whom whom I bought a tivo). He may ask that I update his machine with 2.0.1 early. With the understanding that we would be on our own in the event of a problem, would an early update for him be a problem for tivo?

Cat

------------------
Cat


Posted by: Scutter

quote:
Originally posted by cat_jesus:
Along different a different line of thought. When my 14 hr machine upgrades to 2.0.1 and my other doesn't, will it mess Tivo up if I dd 2.0.1 to my other machine. It would save Tivo a download and since I have to back the thing up anyway I could just go ahead and update the other tivo.


It might, since TiVo has the second machine on record as still being at 1.3.

FP


------------------
http://tivo.pineaus.com


Posted by: cat_jesus

I was not asking for speculation, but an informed answer. http://www.avsforum.com/ubbtivo/smile.gif

I should add that I did upgrade a machine from 1.2 to 1.3 this way and encountered no problems. I figure since I'm going to have to open the machines up to put the dss shell back I might as well save myself the trouble and just clone the drive once I have the shell restored.


------------------
Cat


Posted by: CheapGuy

quote:
Originally posted by 8_ball:
By "on broadband" do you mean a PPP connection to the TiVo then out to the net with DSL or cable? Wouldn't your download speed be limited to the speed of the serial line between the TiVo and it's PPP peer? Or has someone figured out how to make the update cache to a local box at broadband speeds? Now that I've written that, I think publicizing this info could be bad, someone might use the information....unwisely.



Actually, by broadband, I meant the TiVoNet adapters that some of us are playing with. http://www.avsforum.com/ubbtivo/biggrin.gif


Posted by: technothemage

After reading this thread I have a few questions that are not exactly on topic.. but related to this topic.. I am new to the tivo thing and I am reading all the web pages and messages I can get to as fast as I can.

What is this high bandwith upgrade route? As far as I know you have the modem for most and I thought the modem for the direct tv versions but I assume this is the high speed method you are all talking about. Through direct tv. Is this the case? is there a way to get a high bandwidth upgrade using a T1, dsl, cable modem etc.. etc..?

Second....
I just exchanged my tivo for a new one because it was defective.. now that I have learned a bit more about it I am going to do a virgin backup before I use it.. but on the other unit I noticed that when it dialed out.. it dialed a local call for its updates. if it is dialing a local call for updates I am paying for the phone call.. When does it make this 800 call that is billed to tivo? is this an update thing for the 2.0 software or is this suppose to be an every day thing when it gets its tv guide information?

Like I said.. not directly on topic.. but because of the topic these questions were raised.. can anyone help me out here? thanks....

Added this after reading the message posted right before this one... the tivonet adapters I want to get into once I get things backed up and all.. Will this adapter allow me to reach the tivo through my computer and backup items I have recorded? this way I can back up programs to my on stream drive instead of trying to burn them to multple cd's. Having a library on tape backup would be perfect for me.


[This message has been edited by technothemage (edited 02-26-2001).]


Posted by: Scutter

quote:
Originally posted by technothemage:
What is this high bandwith upgrade route?


You can hack your TiVo to use PPP over the serial port instead of the modem. If you have always-on internet, you can pull updates over that instead. Up to 115,200 bps (instead of the 33,600 bps modem). See http://tivo.pineaus.com for the HOWTO.

quote:

Second....
When does it make this 800 call that is billed to tivo? is this an update thing for the 2.0 software or is this suppose to be an every day thing when it gets its tv guide information?


The 800 number is used for the first set-up call (before it knows where you are located and can find you a local number). It's also used if there is no local number once the first guided setup is complete.

quote:

Added this after reading the message posted right before this one... the tivonet adapters I want to get into once I get things backed up and all.. Will this adapter allow me to reach the tivo through my computer and backup items I have recorded?


Yes and no. Yes, you can access it from another computer (that's the whole point, and it will make PPP-over-Serial obsolete), and theoretically you can access recorded programs this way, but because of the proprietary nature of the file system, attempts to do so are being kept quiet to protect TiVo.

FP


------------------
http://tivo.pineaus.com


Posted by: Otto

Not so much to protect Tivo as to the fact that it's a bit of a pain in the ass and dangerous to do from the Tivo itself. MFS is a fragile little sucker, by all accounts.


------------------
Otto, Supreme TiVoWarrior - Moderator - AVS Forum - Tivo Underground
"If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny. Consume you it will!" -- Yoda


Posted by: Scutter

Maybe I should have said "...to protect *your* TiVo." http://www.avsforum.com/ubbtivo/wink.gif

FP


------------------
http://tivo.pineaus.com


Posted by: Bsteenson

quote:
Originally posted by technothemage:
Second....
I just exchanged my tivo for a new one because it was defective.. now that I have learned a bit more about it I am going to do a virgin backup before I use it.. but on the other unit I noticed that when it dialed out.. it dialed a local call for its updates. if it is dialing a local call for updates I am paying for the phone call.. ]


Even though it is a local call for you (for daily updates AND software updates), TiVo still has to pay to make that local number available, and has to pay for the time it is used.

BS




Posted by: technothemage

Thanks a lot for the info guys... That clears up all my questions except for one. I am going to hit the message groups to see if I can find an answer but I will throw it out real quick here... I did a backup of my tivo drive using dylans boot disk and a 7 gig hard drive. The backup was finished in a few minutes after giving me the message 10000 in 10000 out message. not exact but anyone who has done this will probably know what I am talking about. I go back and it is only 349 megs. so I do it again to an image without trying to break it up into 650 meg chunks and it comes out to 180 megs (compressed with the .gz ext.) Did I do something wrong? everyone has been saying it will take a long time and could be very large. I am not even near the m in 650 meg that is usually associated with doing a backup of your main drive. Any suggestion? I dont want to try to restore it now as its a brand new tivo and I just exchanged it for a defective one.

Thanks for the help you guys.. damn fast response!



Posted by: Scutter

Sounds like you have a locked drive. Check the Hack FAQ for more info.

FP


------------------
http://tivo.pineaus.com


Posted by: tomgrossi

I'm not convinced that they couldn't set up a payment structure for second upgrades to 2.0 without endorsing hacking. They would simply institute a policy that the charge for any remote repair on an unwarrantied unit is $9.95. While this sounds like a joke, I honestly think it would work and alleviate a lot of the tension around here. I don't think anyone in this forum wants to see Tivo go out of business and, thus, doesn't want to force them to incur undo costs... then again, I chose Tivo over ReplayTV exclusively because I knew Tivo was hackable and I enjoy that kind of project. It would be nice if we hackers could have piece of mind, while providing yet another revenue stream for Tivo. http://www.avsforum.com/ubbtivo/smile.gif


Posted by: Richard Finegold

quote:
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by bryanh:
Scenario 1:
1 Backed up 1.3 virgin drive to three CD's.
2 Using virgin drive, bought new drive.
3 Married drives in 1.3.
4 Got 2.0.1, something crashed.
5 Restored 1.3 from backup to single drive.

I question the validity of the last step. If Tivo decides to only allow one upgrade per unit then you are now stuck with 1.3 on your machine.

Therefore getting a backup of 2.0.1 makes A LOT of sense. The reason for a virgin backup is to get it on 3 CD's instead of 30-40 CD's.
</font>
Uh, sorry I'm late in getting back here (one month?!?)

Bryanh, no, sorry. You haven't shown (via alternative scenario or just additional wording) how to get 2.0.1 before it crashed; between what steps in the scenario was it? Ambiguous, sorry. It's still two downloads, regardless of step 4's duration.

Actually, from my reading you supported my statement! As soon as you perform step 5 (restore to 1.3 virgin) in the scenario as stated, you are in an ideal position to make virgin 2.0.1 CDs from the second download!

Skywise said it best: So, it's a simple matter of maybe annoying them down the road, or for sure annoying them right now.

I've increased my offer to $100. C'mon!


Posted by: HTH

I've had to restore 1.3.0 due to problems I caused myself after having 2.0.1. It downloaded and reinstalled again successfully.

------------------
http://www.war-of-the-worlds.org/tivo/HTHb.gif
2.0.1.Z16-001-000 (28:25)
2.0.1.Z16-001-000 (09:08)
There is no spool.
http://www.war-of-the-worlds.org/tivo/star2x5.gif




vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2009, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.
vB Easy Archive Final ©2000 - 2009 - Created by Stefan "Xenon" Kaeser Modified by Adam J. de Jaray