TiVo Community Forums Archives - Microsoft starts selling viewer profiles

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Microsoft starts selling viewer profiles
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Posted by: andyf

And so it begins...............
http://www.msnbc.com/news/670796.asp?0dm=B18SB

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Andy

Posted by: Xaa

Using the profile without identifying the individual is a good thing IMHO.

Not much different than the profile Tivo has on all of us. I'd like to see them substitute the standard commercials with ones taylored to my profile while still keeping me annonymous. I might sloww down the FF for a minute if the commercials were of interest to me.

Xaa

Posted by: pv

No, this is not the same thing.

Tivo aggregates their data. All a parter will know is that some number of people in a zipcode watched certain programs. Overall, this is harmless, and may even be helpful in keeping nice programs on the air.

What Microsoft is doing is keeping individual profiles, but 'anonymizing' them to partners. So, they know all about what *you* are watching, what ads you clicked on, what websites you visited, etc. They sell this detailed profile to a partner, but leave your name off.

So, you get all the pitches anyway. What's worse, the term "digital silouette" was pioneered by doubleclick, who has techniques to match this to real-world data, to ultimately match the silouette to a person. They were forced to abandon plans to sell "un-anonymized" data collected this way, but it's still a Very Bad Thing. PV

Posted by: dd9

quote:
Originally posted by pv:
What Microsoft is doing is keeping individual profiles, but 'anonymizing' them to partners. So, they know all about what *you* are watching, what ads you clicked on, what websites you visited, etc. They sell this detailed profile to a partner, but leave your name off.

If they leave your name off, how do they know what *you* are watching?

Posted by: Xaa

The profile is stored locally on the machine just like your personal Tivo Data. It's not much different.

As long as your personal info is kept anonymous, it's no big deal.

Xaa

Posted by: Braden

quote:
Originally posted by Xaa:
The profile is stored locally on the machine just like your personal Tivo Data. It's not much different.

As long as your personal info is kept anonymous, it's no big deal.

Xaa

You have to realize one of the big differences between Ultimate TV and TiVo is the whole Internet/WebTV Integration with the DVR. So they're not only getting your TV viewing data, but they're also tracking all of your Web surfing and passing that data on as well. Plus, they might be pulling your name off of the profile, but what potentially identifying data (address, e-mail, etc.) are they including in the data that they are selling? Between this and Microsoft's "Passport" crap, I have my reasons to avoid them as much as possible.

Posted by: MikeSeery

quote:
Originally posted by Xaa:
As long as your personal info is kept anonymous, it's no big deal.

But it's not anonymous; it's pseudonymous.

Which is acceptable until somebody correlates the true identity behind your pseudonym. At which point, even old historical data tied to the pseudonym are identified as yours.

Posted by: arjay

quote:
Originally posted by Braden:
...one of the big differences between Ultimate TV and TiVo is the whole Internet/WebTV Integration with the DVR. So they're not only getting your TV viewing data, but they're also tracking all of your Web surfing and passing that data on as well.

UTV can only get data from you if you let them by using a phoneline to connect to the web. Ignore the web services on UTV and disconnect the phoneline and they have no way of getting information about you at all.

I'm not sure what they get about your TV watching habits if you use the webside of their service but being suspicious isn't unreasonable.

Even though TiVo offers an opt out of their anonymous data collection I really have no way of knowing what they might or might not actually do. I don't believe they do anything they say they don't but with my unsubbed TiVo not connected to phoneline I don't need to think about it at all.

Seems like the internet in all its various hi and lo speed incarnations is the prime way corporate America can suck your brains dry in this new age of individual marketing at a distance.

[This message has been edited by arjay (edited 12-11-2001).]

Posted by: rbird

quote:
Originally posted by arjay:
Even though TiVo offers an opt out of their anonymous data collection I really have no way of knowing what they might or might not actually do.

Maybe you can't, but there are enterprising young hackers who will (and have).

Bob

Posted by: Scutter

quote:
Originally posted by dd9:
If they leave your name off, how do they know what *you* are watching?

They may leave your name off, but they know the serial number of the unit and the address of the subscriber. Tailor-made junkmail in my daily post comes to mind.

FP

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http://tivo.pineaus.com

TiVo Army of One
We record more before 9 AM than most people record all day.

Posted by: arjay

quote:
Originally posted by rbird:
Originally posted by arjay:
Even though TiVo offers an opt out of their anonymous data collection I really have no way of knowing what they might or might not actually do. Maybe you can't, but there are enterprising young hackers who will (and have).

Good for them. What does that have to do with me? I'd tend to trust TiVo, Inc. more than any hacker. (Even Otto!) http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif Is your point made to support TiVo by the cleverness of its hackers or am I missing something?

My original point had to do with not having to think about it at all.

[This message has been edited by arjay (edited 12-13-2001).]

Posted by: FTT

http://www.wired.com/news/privacy/0,1848,49028,00.html

""Isn't it illegal to track what kids purchase?" Rick Whalens, a CompUSA shopper, wondered. "Is permission to track my kids going to be buried in the longwinded product license that I have to agree to before I can use the product I just purchased?"

Oddo said Predictive's service does not track children.

"We can detect the LIKELIHOOD that children are watching TV BASED ON THE TYPE OF PROGRAM BEING VIEWED AND HOW THE REMOTE CONTROL IS BEING USED," Oddo said. "And we have never provided ads or content that was targeted to children."

Vince said that if the company is not collecting personally identifiable information, they are not violating the provisions of the Federal Government in the Children's Online Privacy Protection Act (COPPA), or the Cable Communications Policy Act of 1984, both aimed toward protecting children's' privacy.

Oddo said that besides telling the age of a viewer, Predictive can also infer what type of content you are interested in, the likelihood that you will be RECEPTIVE TO CERTAIN KINDS OF ADVERTISING, and can figure out –- at least to some degree -- the DEMOGRAPHICS of the viewers such as household income and marital status.
"

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The Barbarians are at
the Gate

[This message has been edited by FTT (edited 12-13-2001).]

Posted by: FTT

"I'd tend to trust TiVo, Inc. more than any hacker."

And I'd tend to trust Enron, Inc. more than any government regulator.

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The Barbarians are at
the Gate

Posted by: foo monkey

quote:
Originally posted by Braden:
You have to realize one of the big differences between Ultimate TV and TiVo is the whole Internet/WebTV Integration with the DVR. So they're not only getting your TV viewing data, but they're also tracking all of your Web surfing and passing that data on as well. Plus, they might be pulling your name off of the profile, but what potentially identifying data (address, e-mail, etc.) are they including in the data that they are selling? Between this and Microsoft's "Passport" crap, I have my reasons to avoid them as much as possible.

Good point. Guaranteed they're tracking and reporting people's web-browsing history.

Posted by: arjay

quote:
Originally posted by FTT:
"I'd tend to trust TiVo, Inc. more than any hacker."
And I'd tend to trust Enron, Inc. more than any government regulator.

Um, what's your point?

No matter who you trust you might be wrong. No?

If I knew Otto personally I'd probably trust him more than TiVo, Inc. He seems to be a pretty straightforward guy. But TiVo, Inc. also appears to be.

If I had to think about it I'd probably decide to either not worry about it or not use a service which requires a phoneline or internet connection.

Posted by: FTT

"Um, what's your point?"

My point is that the only counterbalance to unfettered profit motive of any corporation is government regulation.

Enron is the result of no government oversight. The Cato screamers and the Friedmanites have effectly destroyed the watchdogs:
http://www.thenewrepublic.com/121701/chait121701.html

TiVo cannot be trusted to police itself just as Microsoft cannot be trusted to police itself. Unfortunately, Congress has laid down and rolled over as demonstrated by the "Banking Privacy" act.

Your personal information is now, by default, the corporate property - i.e. asset - of any corporation you do business with.

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The Barbarians are at
the Gate

Posted by: arjay

quote:
Originally posted by FTT:

My point is that the only counterbalance to unfettered profit motive of any corporation is government regulation.

I don't necessarily disagree with you. The devil is, of course, in the details.

Posted by: FTT

"I don't necessarily disagree with you. The devil is, of course, in the details."

touche

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The Barbarians are at
the Gate

Posted by: HTH

quote:
Originally posted by arjay:
If I had to think about it I'd probably decide to either not worry about it or not use a service which requires a phoneline or internet connection.

Personal sidenote: the phone connection was the most compelling reason why I didn't get involved in DiVX players. Yet I now own three TiVos and have given three more to family.

And I bought them all at Circuit City, the promoter of DiVX.

Hacker investigations into the data and TiVo's attitude toward hackers gives me reason to trust TiVo. I worry more about my cable company tracking what I watch through the digital cable box, which clearly can transmit information back to them through the necessary cable connection.

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http://www.war-of-the-worlds.org/tivo/HTHb.gif

Posted by: arjay

quote:
Originally posted by HTH:

Hacker investigations into the data and TiVo's attitude toward hackers gives me reason to trust TiVo.

I'm not overjoyed about any recorder requiring a phone connection to work but that's another topic.

It's part of TiVo's business plan to do many revenue enhancing things with it's service including making it availible as a conduit to sell you things.

There is a new paradigm of merchandizing. TiVo is probably going to be part of it. Depending on who may buy TiVo, Inc. the mission may even expand or change.

(AOL is still the best operating dial-up ISP I've yet run across. They're not perfect but they're good and fast. Almost never get disconnected. Not PC perhaps but true! Just wish they weren't the most expensive dial-up and didn't always push stuff atcha'. I have them as an option while their service is free but generally use a discount service which doesn't push anything and at its best is more than good enough.)

Posted by: pv

quote:
Originally posted by FTT:
"We can detect the LIKELIHOOD that children are watching TV BASED ON THE TYPE OF PROGRAM BEING VIEWED AND HOW THE REMOTE CONTROL IS BEING USED," Oddo said. "And we have never provided ads or content that was targeted to children."

Did I call that one correctly, or didn't I? Predictive networks? They're even scarier than doubleclick. PV

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