TiVo Community Forums Archives - Privacy Update Tomorrow

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Privacy Update Tomorrow
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Posted by: TiVolutionary

I assure you that you will find very little different, as nothing really changed in the new policy, but tomorrow we will announce an update to our Privacy Policy.

We are doing this to specifically enumerate how we will and won't share customer data with partners. This is mostly because of the new 3rd Party Developer Program we announced earlier this month.

I'm no lawyer, but it looks to me like your data is only shared when you click the little menu item that says, "yeah, share my data."

If we're going to let you run services from some other company on a TiVo, we've got to pay those other companies somehow, no?

But if you don't, we won't.

This is a pretty lightweight change. Let's not call out the special forces until you get a chance to read it.

-RB

Posted by: dmaneyapanda

thanks for the heads up.

dinesh

Posted by: SuperRob

This is why I love this company! Name me another company that not only will tell you ahead of time that it's changing a policy, but even what the change entails and WHY.

Thanks, Richard. I wish more companies would follow the example of yours. (Or maybe just you ...)

Posted by: bsnelson

Thanks, RB.

But I'm sure Mr. Bill would do the same if there was a change in U.. nawwwwwww! :D

Brad

Posted by: LoadStar

Mostly a bump, but also seconds to the thanks to TiVo and RB for giving us the heads up on this.

Hmm... little menu item that says "yeah, share my data"? Is this in the current software and I don't remember it, or is this only in the Series 2 software? It might be during the guided setup, I don't remember since it's been so long since I've done a guided setup.

Posted by: feldon23

Definately preparing for TiVo Series2.

I wonder if 3.0 is rolling out on the AT&TiVos soon. :)

Posted by: FlashingTwelve

quote:
Originally posted by SuperRob
This is why I love this company! Name me another company that not only will tell you ahead of time that it's changing a policy, but even what the change entails and WHY.

If a company tells you that it is changing a policy, and gives details of what the changes entail and why it needs to be changed, then the company is not really telling you "ahead of time". It just told you. Sure, it politely told you before the rest of the world but thats no reason to get warm and fuzzy before swallowing the tivospoon of altruism. The reason we are fed forewarnings is more because the company has a fiduciary duty to its shareholders to lessen the impact of these changes. The first time the tivo privacy policy was changed it landed like a thud in the fan club and soon enough the whole world was saying Wow, even the fan club is up in arms. Hence the polite forewarnings.

Even with RBs explanation of "If we're going to let you run services from some other company on a TiVo, we've got to pay those other companies somehow, no?" it is still not clear to me why the policy needs to change. I guess I'll wait until the release for details. I just look forward (with a really long telescope) to the day when he will be saying "If we're going to let you run services from some other company on a TiVo, they've got to pay us for our users, yes?"

Posted by: SuperRob

quote:
If a company tells you that it is changing a policy, and gives details of what the changes entail and why it needs to be changed, then the company is not really telling you "ahead of time". It just told you.

The point I was attempting to make is that MOST companies may change a policy, but don't do it in advance of the change (which Richard DID), and never tell you the full details. And they rarely contact you directly (or even semi-directly, i.e. this forum) ... they just post the change on their website where you have to go look for it, as if you know the change happened at all.

quote:
The reason we are fed forewarnings is more because the company has a fiduciary duty to its shareholders to lessen the impact of these changes.

Pardon my french, but that's a load of crap. The only duty a company has to it's shareholders is to make them money. Again, see my explanation above ... most companies DON'T disclose policy changes entirely, and certainly don't attempt to explain WHY. Policy changes don't affect SALES, and rarely affect subscribers. Ask any company. Unless the policy they're changing directly impacts your BILL, customers rarely care enough to cancel the service.

Richard came here and told us what was going to happen, when, and most importantly ... WHY. Downplay it as "ass-covering" all you want, but there was zero reason for him to do it, and even less for him to be as forthcoming as he was.

quote:
Even with RBs explanation of "If we're going to let you run services from some other company on a TiVo, we've got to pay those other companies somehow, no?" it is still not clear to me why the policy needs to change.

Then you simply haven't been paying attention. Richard is pretty clear that the sharing of your information to the partnered companies is HOW TiVo is paying them for their inclusion. And he's also very clear to say that since using these new services is voluntary, that the sharing of your data is a requirement of those services ... effectively making it opt-in. If you don't use the new services, your information goes no further than TiVo. If you do use the new services, your information is shared with the corresponding company.

The reason why the policy has to change is because TiVo has vowed to not share your information with ANYONE. In order to accomodate this change, the policy needs to change. What part of this do you not understand?

quote:
The first time the tivo privacy policy was changed it landed like a thud in the fan club and soon enough the whole world was saying Wow, even the fan club is up in arms. Hence the polite forewarnings.

Again, this is horse-pockey. The only "policy change" you could possibly be referring to is that TiVo gathers anonymous data on what you watch and shares it. It was never a change, TiVo did this all long. It was the fact that people didn't understand that the data was sold in an aggregated form, and not on any one individual user (no matter how anonymous) that got anyone "up in arms." I would also point out that Richard was VERY forthcoming about this.

Why is it people always assume that companies have something to hide, and that the more they share with you, the MORE they're trying to hide???

Posted by: Dan203

quote:
Originally posted by FlashingTwelve Even with RBs explanation of "If we're going to let you run services from some other company on a TiVo, we've got to pay those other companies somehow, no?" it is still not clear to me why the policy needs to change.

He was referring to future third party pay for use services like RealOne, iVOD, etc...! These third parties are going to need to know personal information about you in order to maintain your account and correctly bill you. They made a similar change when the DirecTiVo came out because they had to share some your personal information with DirecTV for billing reasons.

If you don't plan to use any of those new third party services then the change will most likely not effect you at all.

Dan

Posted by: TiVolutionary

I appreciate you fine knights coming to a damsel's distress, but I am no damsel, and there is really no distress! ;)

This update is no big deal -- really!

I have made a habbit of fore-disclosing all changes of this sort to you guys. It is simply a matter of respect. You guys spend more time thinking about TiVo than anyone else, so we tell you guys things a bit in advance.

And I have seen some really angry threads over the years, and believe me, I know there is little i can do to prevent them. The best I can do is try to fix the thing that's wrong. Pre-disclosing is not designed to avoid angry threads.

But in this case, nothing is wrong. Nothing much has changed, and really, there is no reason to get wound-up about this.

Cheers,
-RB

Posted by: Sir_whinealot

quote:
Originally posted by TiVolutionary

But in this case, nothing is wrong. Nothing much has changed, and really, there is no reason to get wound-up about this.

Cheers,
-RB

Ah yes...but lest we forget the "read between the liners" who swear if you grew a long enough beard, they'd dial 911 whilest shouting "I found Bin Laden!"

It's like the people who win the lottery, yet complain about the taxes they hafta pay!:rolleyes:

Just remember RB...Valentines Day is just around the corner, and I'll have a heart on, just for you and TiVo!:D I love youse guys.
;)

Posted by: NFLnut

quote:
Originally posted by bsnelson
Thanks, RB.

But I'm sure Mr. Bill would do the same if there was a change in U.. nawwwwwww! :D

Brad

Well, that's simple!

"Mr Bill" HAS no privacy policy! He just designs software that leaves you wide open (allegedly, for the law types who might read this :rolleyes: ) for attack from every script kiddie on the internet, and wants you to place all of your private info -- credit card numbers, etc -- in HIS "Wallet" for "safe and convenient" keeping!

"MS -- all your base are belong to us!"

Posted by: HTH

quote:
Originally posted by SuperRob
The point I was attempting to make is that MOST companies may change a policy, but don't do it in advance of the change (which Richard DID), and never tell you the full details. And they rarely contact you directly (or even semi-directly, i.e. this forum) ... they just post the change on their website where you have to go look for it, as if you know the change happened at all.

And it would be posted on the web at the bottom of a password-protected page in a misspelled subdirectory behind a hyperlink which read Beware of the Leopard.

Posted by: TiVo Sailor

quote:
Originally posted by HTH

And it would be posted on the web at the bottom of a password-protected page in a misspelled subdirectory behind a hyperlink which read Beware of the Leopard.

And they'd knock your house over anyway...

Posted by: nrc

quote:
Originally posted by TiVolutionary
This update is no big deal -- really!

I believe you. But I'll bet we still get a hysteria inducing slashdot story out of it.

Just watch - someone will theorize that TiVo is starting to relax their privacy policy now that Microsoft is out of the picture and some knob will mod it up to 'insightful.' :rolleyes:

I'm sure we won't see any black helicopters around here. :p

Posted by: jmccorm

quote:
Originally posted by TiVolutionary
I assure you that you will find very little different, as nothing really changed in the new policy, but tomorrow we will announce an update to our Privacy Policy.

RB, you rock. [b]Now give me early access to the developer program, if it is something the 'little guys' can participate in!

Posted by: geko29

So anybody read the changes yet?

Posted by: DJRobX

quote:
"MS -- all your base are belong to us!"

While that may be true, all your tuners are belong to TiVo!

-- Rob

Posted by: NFLnut

quote:
Originally posted by nrc
.. now that Microsoft is out of the picture

Did I miss something, or is this just sarcasm that is flying completely over my head? :confused:

Posted by: alexcue

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-v...&threadid=42010

NFLNut, UTV is being downsized it seems.

Posted by: alexcue

E-mail's notifying us about the change in Privacy are starting to hit. Got one a few minutes ago.
All i can say is Big Deal.

Posted by: DBCooper

quote:
Originally posted by SuperRob
Why is it people always assume that companies have something to hide, and that the more they share with you, the MORE they're trying to hide???

It's a trait the young have learned from observing the attitude of the majority of journalists. Their basic philosophy is "All the people in my crowd are jerks, therefore everyone is a jerk."

Posted by: Otto

For anyone who wants to know:

quote:
"Commerce Information" means personally identifiable information that enables a commerce partner to fulfill your request to participate in a promotion or transaction. From time to time, TiVo may present special offers and/or enable you to purchase goods and services from TiVo, or third party advertisers or promoters. You would be informed of such offers on screen while using the TiVo service. Should you decide to take advantage of such an offer or engage in a transaction, TiVo will collect and communicate your relevant Contact Information and your interest in a specific offer or transaction to the commerce partner sponsoring the promotion or transaction. In addition to fulfilling your request, that commerce partner may also use your Commerce Information to send you other information in which you might be interested consistent with its own privacy policies. This information is collected and disclosed by TiVo only upon your affirmative response to an offer.

Commerce Partners. When you elect to participate in a special offer or engage in a transaction with TiVo or a third party advertiser or promoter, TiVo will collect and disclose your Commerce Information to the commerce partner sponsoring and/or fulfilling the promotion. In addition to fulfilling your request, that commerce partner may also use your Commerce Information to send you other information in which you might be interested consistent with its own privacy policies. This information is disclosed only upon your affirmative response to an offer.

So basically, they're enabling themselves to be able to give away the info they need to give away when you specifically request them to do so. For example: Let's say you're watching a commercial for Mars Bars, and see a thumbs up icon on the screen. You press thumbs up and get a screen that says "Would you like to receive more info about Mars bars along with a free Mars bar?". You select "Sure, send me my free candy!". This enables them to be able to tell Mars your mailing address so Mars can then send you that info and your free candy. Without this clause, they wouldn't be able to do that.

Most importantly, this doesn't allow them to share any of your info with any partners without your affirmative response to do so. You must say "yes, send me my free candy" before they can give out any information. Also, since they define "commerce info" as being "personally identifiable information that enables a commerce partner to fulfill your request to participate in a promotion or transaction", they cannot give out any information other than what is neccesary to the transaction. That is, there's no reason in the above example for them to give Mars anything they may have other than the mailing address and name, therefore they can't give any more info out.

Posted by: Otto

quote:
Originally posted by FlashingTwelve
The first time the tivo privacy policy was changed it landed like a thud in the fan club and soon enough the whole world was saying Wow, even the fan club is up in arms. Hence the polite forewarnings.

Actually, the first time the privacy policy changed it went more or less unnoticed by the "fan club". Why? Because that change was only to enable them to share information with DirecTV in order to be able to create the DirecTivo's. Also, it holds Tivo's partners to the same standards as Tivo itself has, if they don't have those standards, Tivo can't share information with them. It's all clearly spelled out.

The anonymous thing that got everyone "up in arms" has happened three times now, with no policy changes at all. It seems to be a recurring phenomenon, just happens whenever some media moron runs into a slow news day.

Posted by: NoteTaker

quote:
Originally posted by Otto
For anyone who wants to know:

So basically, they're enabling themselves to be able to give away the info they need to give away when you specifically request them to do so. For example: Let's say you're watching a commercial for Mars Bars, and see a thumbs up icon on the screen. You press thumbs up and get a screen that says "Would you like to receive more info about Mars bars along with a free Mars bar?". You select "Sure, send me my free candy!". This enables them to be able to tell Mars your mailing address so Mars can then send you that info and your free candy. Without this clause, they wouldn't be able to do that.

Most importantly, this doesn't allow them to share any of your info with any partners without your affirmative response to do so. You must say "yes, send me my free candy" before they can give out any information. Also, since they define "commerce info" as being "personally identifiable information that enables a commerce partner to fulfill your request to participate in a promotion or transaction", they cannot give out any information other than what is neccesary to the transaction. That is, there's no reason in the above example for them to give Mars anything they may have other than the mailing address and name, therefore they can't give any more info out.

I hope they put a lock out on it. How about people with kids or with friends that think you need free used car info or some such.

Posted by: walters

quote:
Originally posted by NoteTaker

I hope they put a lock out on it. How about people with kids or with friends that think you need free used car info or some such.

I'd be much more upset if a friend or family member deleted a recording I hadn't gotten to yet than if they caused me to get some Lexus advertisement in the mail. There's more of a need for a lock on program deletions IMHO than on responding to third-party promotions.

Posted by: nextguard2

quote:
Originally posted by geko29
So anybody read the changes yet?

yeah....
Except for the core problem that thecollection of data is opt-out instead of opt-in, I don't see how this makes the privacy situation with TIvo any worse.

The relevent definition..
>>"Commerce Information" means personally identifiable information that enables a commerce partner to fulfill your request to participate in a promotion or transaction. From time to time, TiVo may present special offers and/or enable you to purchase goods and services from TiVo, or third party advertisers or promoters. You would be informed of such offers on screen while using the TiVo service. Should you decide to take advantage of such an offer or engage in a transaction, TiVo will collect and communicate your relevant Contact Information and your interest in a specific offer or transaction to the commerce partner sponsoring the promotion or transaction. In addition to fulfilling your request, that commerce partner may also use your Commerce Information to send you other information in which you might be interested consistent with its own privacy policies. This information is collected and disclosed by TiVo only upon your affirmative response to an offer.<<

People already having access
>>Manufacturing and Service Provider Partners...Contractors and Third Party Service Providers....The "Corporate Family."

The new section on commerce partners
>>Commerce Partners. When you elect to participate in a special offer or engage in a transaction with TiVo or a third party advertiser or promoter, TiVo will collect and disclose your Commerce Information to the commerce partner sponsoring and/or fulfilling the promotion. In addition to fulfilling your request, that commerce partner may also use your Commerce Information to send you other information in which you might be interested consistent with its own privacy policies. This information is disclosed only upon your affirmative response to an offer.<<

Posted by: Otto

quote:
Originally posted by nextguard2
Except for the core problem that thecollection of data is opt-out instead of opt-in, I don't see how this makes the privacy situation with TIvo any worse.

Huh? The collection of personally identifiable data is opt-in. It says so right there. Anonymous data is opt-out. Where's the problem?

Posted by: HTH

quote:
Originally posted by Otto
Also, since they define "commerce info" as being "personally identifiable information that enables a commerce partner to fulfill your request to participate in a promotion or transaction", they cannot give out any information other than what is neccesary to the transaction. That is, there's no reason in the above example for them to give Mars anything they may have other than the mailing address and name, therefore they can't give any more info out.

It could be more information, just to assure the commerce partner that you're not trying to get more than the allotted one promotional item per individual.

TiVo could elect to be our agent with some offers, concealing personally identifying information, but for a fee, like charging you $8.00 for shipping and handling for relaying your free candy bar to you. It's just not cost effective for them to put themselves in that position, and the charges to the user for such a service would likely be exhorbitant.

Posted by: SuperRob

quote:
Except for the core problem that thecollection of data is opt-out instead of opt-in, I don't see how this makes the privacy situation with TIvo any worse.

The collection of anonymous viewing data IS opt-in. You opted-in when you signed up for the TiVo service. Duh. :)

In fact, when it comes right down to it, I don't know why anyone would WANT to opt-out of that collection of data. It's bound to be more accurate than Neilsen ratings, but it's completely anonymous. I'd like to think that if everyone had a TiVo, that we'd see a lot fewer really GOOD shows getting cancelled just because people had to choose what to watch in a certain timeslot.

Posted by: willardcpa

quote:
Let's say you're watching a commercial for Mars Bars, and see a thumbs up icon on the screen. You press thumbs up and get a screen that says "Would you like to receive more info about Mars bars along with a free Mars bar?". You select "Sure, send me my free candy!". This enables them to be able to tell Mars your mailing address so Mars can then send you that info and your free candy. Without this clause, they wouldn't be able to do that.

Hey - where's my free candy, how come everybody else is getting it but me. Does DTivo download the candy over the phone or over the Sat? What about all those guys that "moved" to NY, will their candy bars be sent there? If you have dual tuners enabled will you get two candy bars? Can I selectively opt out on this - I only want the candy - not the Lexus ads?:D

Posted by: Raech

Moderator Dan,
Do you know what these pay services will be? I read the names you called them, but dunno what they are.

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