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Tribune Data makes 2.5.5 fairly pointless
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Posted by: timjon

Okay, so I've got 2.5.5, and I'm setting up some season passes to record "first run only".

Sadly, virtually every current first run series that I wanted to put in (Ally Mcbeal, Friends, ER) isn't set up as "first run", so TiVo isn't planning on recording any of them. I can manually add the new episodes, but what the hell is the point of that? If I can't trust a feature, it's effectively worthless.

Surely everybody at TiVo *knew* that the new features depended heavily on decent guide data - and these aren't minority shows, they're E4's biggest products, and have been nationally advertised for weeks.

Cheers,

Tim.

PS. Obviously I'm only recording these for my girlfriend. ;)

Posted by: Johnny_boy

Tribune monitor this board so will pick up on things like this and hopefully rectify them. AFAIK they didn't have access to the Beta board so if people reported problems there then Tribune wouldn't have been aware unless Fred or Gary brought it to their attention.

Hopefully it will settle down in the next few weeks, because we rely on accurate data for that feature to work.

Posted by: Richardr

First run only is only one of many improvements in 2.5.5, and is really not that relevant over here anyway, as new series are not padded out with repeats (apart from a very few exceptions).

To suggest that because first run does run as well as it could that 2.5.5 is fairly pointless is a gross overstatement.

Padding
Wishlists
Season pass manager
variable bit rate recording (saving disc space)

These must be of some small use to you.

Posted by: MrPhil

quote:
First run only is only one of many improvements in 2.5.5, and is really not that relevant over here anyway, as new series are not padded out with repeats (apart from a very few exceptions).

Er, surely thats not the point? If I buy a car, and it is supposed to have power steering, but it doesn`t work, should I be consoled by the fact that it also has electric windows, heated seats etc etc.

Rather than excepting that First Run probably isnt reliable and therefore not worth the risk, should we not pursuade Tribune to provide better data?

Posted by: alanjrobertson

quote:
Originally posted by Richardr
First run only is only one of many improvements in 2.5.5, and is really not that relevant over here anyway, as new series are not padded out with repeats (apart from a very few exceptions).

Unfortunately those exceptions are programmes that I would like to record - e.g., Simpsons (on a Sunday), Malcolm in the Middle, Enterprise, ER, Friends, etc.

I appreciate that the analogue terrestrial channels don't repeat much, but Sky One and E4 certainly do & it would be a really useful feature!

Alan

Posted by: Richardr

Whilst agreeing that first run doesn't work properly without the data, which means it currently doesn't work at all as designed, I was saying that because one feature doesn't work in practice doesn't make the upgrade pointless.

Posted by: MrPhil

I agree it doesn`t make the upgrade pointless to die hard Tivo fans, but to the average retail consumer if something doesn`t work, it doesn`t work, and it gets taken back to the shop.

Tivo already has all of us convinced that it is a fantastic product, but now they have to convince the mass market to succeed, and problems like this won`t help

Posted by: timjon

The other features are nice, of course, but you could already add padding by making a manual recording. If you can't use season passes due to the incorrect data, then you have to make a manual recording anyway, so padding on a "per season pass basis" isn't such a big deal. Additionally, season pass manager isn't so useful without the "first run only" functionality.

As an example, there are something like 30 episodes of Ally McBeal over the next few weeks on E4, of which one per week is actually new. So you either have to record all of them (and risk totally unwanted recordings overwriting something you wanted to keep) or record them manually.

Is 2.5.5 worthless? No, of course not - the new functionality is useful and appreciated, and we haven't lost anything. However, without accurate guide data, many of the new "bells and whistles" lose a lot of their appeal.

I could understand if "first run" information was being neglected on marginal programs from the "second tier" channels, but I think it's reasonable to expect that E4s premier lineup should be correctly tagged!

Cheers,

Tim.

Posted by: alanjrobertson

quote:
Originally posted by timjon
I could understand if "first run" information was being neglected on marginal programs from the "second tier" channels, but I think it's reasonable to expect that E4s premier lineup should be correctly tagged!

Agreed. Does anyone know what Tribune and/or TiVo are saying about this??

Ta,

Alan

Posted by: okonski_uk

One of the basic difficulties for Tribune, never mind correctly marking an episode 'First Run' - lets look at one programme that certainly isn't.... MASH.

I caught this by accident when Tivo recorded it to discover it was the Pilot, and we are now at episode 4 of a run that I hope will include all 71 episodes in their correct order.

Tivo's problem is that it has NO episode information (strange, for a 30-year old series) and Tivo is happily taping every episode, including the same-day repeat.

Is it really too much for them to flag a daily repeat to save wasting hD space if they cannot be fussed in providing the Episode information....?

Sadly, it appears to be.

Posted by: Johnny_boy

2.5.5 applies the 28-day rule to recordings. If a programme had been recorded in the last 28 days, it won't re-record it. If you look at view upcoming episodes in the to-do, SP or search screens, it will show you what epsiodes it will record and which it won't. Go to To Do list, choose recording history, your current position is now, going up the list shows past shows that were cancelled or dodnlt record and why, going forward whows future shows that will/won't record and why in the case of the latter.

This should help with first runs as Second Chance Sunday for example won;t record if you got the earlier in the week episode.

Another example is Enterprise, I have conflicting recordings for Eastenders and Enterprise so it records EE on Monday, Enterprise Sunday. If it has no guide data (yet) for EE, it will schedule Enterprise on Monday but dynamically reschedule when BBC1 data comes through (BBC1 often has less days data than Sky).

The data is based on American First Runs so will need to be adapted for the UK - remeber a show on E4 can be a first run, but then when it moves to C4, it's also first run and if Sky decide to show it later, it could be First Run there as well.

It'll take Tribune a few weeks to settle the data down but if we tell them where they're going wrong, hopefully they can fix it!

It's not the end of the world, just because Friends is on 30 times a week doesn't mean 30 recordings - most will be repeats (I found 5 repeats of one episode in a week spread over Sky and E4 while looking through the upcoming episodes).

Posted by: Richardr

quote:
Originally posted by timjon
As an example, there are something like 30 episodes of Ally McBeal over the next few weeks on E4, of which one per week is actually new. So you either have to record all of them (and risk totally unwanted recordings overwriting something you wanted to keep) or record them manually.

Whilst agreeing with you that first run is not working correctly (in this case as with so many because the guide data requires original air date, and the data uses the US date - don't forget that the new 28 day rule is preventing repeats from being recorded.

Doesn't this cut in half the number of unwanted recordings?

If so, then 2.5.5 isn't pointless.

Posted by: alanjrobertson

quote:
Originally posted by Richardr
Doesn't this cut in half the number of unwanted recordings?

Good point - it should certainly deal with Enterprise and MITM for me.

quote:
If so, then 2.5.5 isn't pointless.

Most certainly not!! - I think anyone that said that would be in danger of facing a lynch mob! :p

Alan

Posted by: Yogi

quote:
Originally posted by Richardr
First run only is only one of many improvements in 2.5.5, and is really not that relevant over here anyway, as new series are not padded out with repeats (apart from a very few exceptions).

Sorry, but I don't agree.

Why can't I use TiVo to only pick up new episodes of Friends, Simpsons etc - both of which are padded out with old episodes on the same channel.

'First Run' is an excellent feature, and I use it to seperate new episodes of the 'Bill' from the old episodes that are broadcast on the same channel.

But at the moment, First Run is completly useless for US programs because of the Tribune data.

My other gripe with the tribune data is simply the accuracy.

My wife has a wishlist set up for 'Alan Davies' (I have no idea why) - it picks up the UK Gold repeats of Jonathon Creek, but completly missed the repeat of 'Bob & Rose' because 'no information was available'.

Episodes of Ripley's Believe it or not from 2000 are described as 'Craig Charles host a new series of....' - utter rubbish.

TiVo is an excellent product, but is being let down by completely crap data.

Posted by: GarySargent

Be careful - there are VERY FEW cases where you should be using first run at all. Normally you wouldn't select this option.

This option is NOT to stop repeat recordings - that is done automatically. It is for use only when a channel is airing two different seasons of a series at once - eg Stargate SG1 on Sky1 used to show the old series some days, and the new one others.

You wouldn't use First Run for Enterprise as there is only one season being broadcast. The 28 day rule would stop Sundays repeat showing (and it does!).

Posted by: bignoise

quote:
Originally posted by okonski_uk
One of the basic difficulties for Tribune, never mind correctly marking an episode 'First Run' - lets look at one programme that certainly isn't.... MASH.

Tivo's problem is that it has NO episode information (strange, for a 30-year old series) and Tivo is happily taping every episode, including the same-day repeat.

Is it really too much for them to flag a daily repeat to save wasting hD space if they cannot be fussed in providing the Episode information....?

Sadly, it appears to be.

You're blaming the wrong people. While it's obviously very clever and very "in" to constantly blame Tribune for absolutely everything, this is yet another case of the perrennial problem that Tribune cannot synthesise episode data out of thin air when the broadcaster does not supply it.

Go take a look at Paramount Comedy's website - look in the 'Press Room' under 'Downloadables' and you can download the press listings as an acrobat PDF. There you will see exactly the data which they issue. You'll notice that for every showing of Mash, there are no episode details, and just a generic synopsis. Go check your TiVo and you'll see that the details in TiVo are exactly the same as the details in that file. Tribune (and TiVo) are giving you as much information as the broadcaster has issued. Where they mention a specific episode, TiVo has that information. Where they don't, they don't.

If you're going to moan about something, at least blame the right people for it...

Posted by: MrPhil

quote:
It is for use only when a channel is airing two different seasons of a series at once - eg Stargate SG1 on Sky1 used to show the old series some days, and the new one others.

That is true of the majority of programming shown on sky isnt it?
;)

Posted by: ALanJay

quote:
Originally posted by GarySargent
Be careful - there are VERY FEW cases where you should be using first run at all. Normally you wouldn't select this option.

Correct - the problem is that the "first run" system is designed to solve a particular US idiosicracy which is that when showing a new series US Networks have a tendency to repeat episodes of the same series in the standard slot to spread out the new series over almost the entire year. This requires the "first run" code to NOT record a programme if the Original Air date is more than 28 days in the PAST.

Now the UK does NOT have this problem.

quote:

This option is NOT to stop repeat recordings - that is done automatically. It is for use only when a channel is airing two different seasons of a series at once - eg Stargate SG1 on Sky1 used to show the old series some days, and the new one others.

Sort of correct - this is a completly different thing that is trying to be solved the problem is that it COULD be solved with the first run code "if" Tribune can change the way the deal with Original Air Dates. Personaly I feel that this is trying to crack a nut with a sledgehammer as because the issue is not recording other series not old episodes of the same series the "first run" code is excesive.

quote:

You wouldn't use First Run for Enterprise as there is only one season being broadcast. The 28 day rule would stop Sundays repeat showing (and it does!).

Which it does fine - most of the time you don't have to worry about First Run - the 28 Day rule will do the job when the data is valid. Where there are old series of the same show playing on the same channel it would be nice if "first run" solved this.

BUT no one knows how Tribune are going to deal with this along with all the other episode data that are required to get the best out of 2.5.5. Personally I think that "First Run" is entirely confusing for the UK market and that what is needed is a new feature that records episodes of a particular / current season as opppsed to episodes from different seasons. All the data is potentially available in the data that Tribune provide without changing correct data.

Overall as Gary says there are very few occasions when First RUn is actually useful - BUT it seems as though it should be used much more than it is.

As has been mentioned further up this list there are things like MASH and Ellen on Paramount which are now not even flagged as the two shows on the same day being a repeat which is what the 28 day rule should deal with and which for my money is a much more useful thing to have correct.

Posted by: Bateman

quote:
Originally posted by Yogi

TiVo is an excellent product, but is being let down by completely crap data.

I think you have hit the nail on the head. The guy at work I got to buy a Tivo, who is also a techie, worked that out within hours of having it!

Posted by: Brangdon

We should at least be able to put dates into Keyword Wishlists. I don't think we can, though. I just searched for "Friends 2001", and it didn't find anything. "Friends" alone found loads of stuff, and "2001" a handful but not any episode of Friends. This despite the fact that the program description starts, "The one with the stain" (2001).

Posted by: ALanJay

Of course the potential problem with that is that the Original Air Date defines the date after the title. So if they change the original air date with the year be wrong could get confusing....

Posted by: okonski_uk

quote:
Originally posted by bignoise
You're blaming the wrong people.... If you're going to moan about something, at least blame the right people for it...

Because they use a website that doesn't give the correct information? Sorry Ant, but it is up to them to find out. They have paying customers requiring the information. A press office will always provide the information on request. Even if something arose to prevent this, then it would be fairly easy to code which is the Episode, and which is the repeat. We might not get the episode details, but at least we won't have the HD filled with the SAME programme!

Posted by: Matthew Finlayson

quote:
Because they use a website that doesn't give the correct information? Sorry Ant, but it is up to them to find out. They have paying customers requiring the information. A press office will always provide the information on request.

You seem to have missed the point. It's not that Tribune get their information from the Paramount web-site. It's that Paramount have chosen to put exactly the same information on their web-site that they distribute to all of the listings companies. Presumably (guessing) Paramount have made a conscious decision not to supply episode information on these programs because it would cost them too much to get it right. You're right - paying customer of Paramount want this information and they should contact them to ensure it's made available.

quote:
Even if something arose to prevent this, then it would be fairly easy to code which is the Episode, and which is the repeat. We might not get the episode details, but at least we won't have the HD filled with the SAME programme!

As far as I know, that's not how the Tivo works. They base their decision not to record the repeat on the "episode" tag in the Tribune data. Obviously both Tivo and Tribune _could_ extend their respective products to add another mechanism which allowed you to code this, but it's like to be very far from "easy"! (Things always seem to be when they involve more than one organisation changing an interface.)

Posted by: alanjrobertson

quote:
Originally posted by Brangdon
We should at least be able to put dates into Keyword Wishlists. I don't think we can, though. I just searched for "Friends 2001", and it didn't find anything. "Friends" alone found loads of stuff, and "2001" a handful but not any episode of Friends. This despite the fact that the program description starts, "The one with the stain" (2001).

Thinking I was being very clever, that's precisely what I tried to do too! I also found that it didn't work :( I think it's because there are brackets either side of the 2001, rather than spaces. I tried using wildcards - *2001*, but that didn't work either.

All I could think of to get round it was to set up a manual season pass for Thursdays 9-9:30pm on E4.

By the way - has anyone worked out how to change the time/channel of a manual recording season pass? The only options seem to be the standard season pass ones (e.g., recording quality, how many episodes to keep, etc.)

Ta,

Alan

Posted by: duncan418

As a fairly recent member of the TiVolution apologies if this has been mentioned before, but to my mind the problem isnt a 'First Run' one rather to do with Season Passes.

In all the examples, (Stargate, Friends, Ally Mcbeal etc), the channels are showing 2 or more seperate seasons at the same time. If the season pass could reflect this then the problem would be solved - you would be able to set passes independently and get just new/old/both episodes.

Posted by: Matthew Finlayson

That would be a bit limiting though.

At the moment, if I've got a season pass set for something, I'll automatically pick up the next and subsequent seasons as well - even if I don't know that they're on!

Posted by: ALanJay

Indeed you are correct the problem is due to SEASONS.

But "season passes" don't actually do that they record all episodes of a particlular programme on a particular channel. In the US on Network TV that means a particular season - as it does generally with the main terestrial channels in the UK.

The problem is that "First Run" has a very specific use in the US.

In the UK what we want / need is what you say a way to record a particular / current SEASON and ignore earlier YEARS. Using and hacking the EPG data to do this for the UK strikes me as a hige amount of effort for little reward while there is a huge amount of work still to do with getting correct and accurate basic UK EPG data (also you could fix the CURRENT SEASON issue either by extending the 28 day rule out to a year or by using the Episode and Season / Year information to work out which is the current season and record all those for that "season". ie as a general rule a season runs from September so saying record the current season would look at the Original Air Date and record eposides from say Sept 2000 to Sept 2001. There is even an episode number field that could be used to do this many seires use the YYEE Year Episode number to show the position in the series. The data is available and should be used (but won't most likely) so we will have to hope that in playing with original air dates Tribune don't screw up lots of other things as a by product.

I think the general feeling is that "First Run" does NOT work reliably at the moment so don't use it.

Posted by: sanderton

IMHO, the First Run feature will never do what everyone wants even when the data is right, because of programmes having multi-channel first broadcasts.

To take the Simpsons as an example, would the OAD be the Sky 1 date or the BBC 2 date? If the former, the someone without Sky 1 would never get an episode of the Simpsons recorded. Would ER's be Sky 1 or Channel 4? Shooting Stars BBC Choice or BBC 2? Friends E4 or Channel 4?

Etc etc etc.

Any way you cut it, someone isn't going to get the result they expect.

Personally, I think this a s US feature that should have been deleted from the UK software as it will confuse more people than it will help.

Posted by: duncan418

very slightly OT but another feature that may fall foul of this several seasons at once 'problem' is Keep At Most. I doubt it will tell the difference between new and old series so your recording of the new Friends may be deleted because youve told TivO to only keep 2 episodes.

We're going to have to be careful playing with our new software...

Posted by: ALanJay

quote:
Originally posted by sanderton
IMHO, the First Run feature will never do what everyone wants even when the data is right, because of programmes having multi-channel first broadcasts.

Any way you cut it, someone isn't going to get the result they expect.

Personally, I think this a s US feature that should have been deleted from the UK software as it will confuse more people than it will help.

I think you are correct up to a point - a lot of people will be confused by this and try to set it when it is unscessarry and a few will set it when it would have been nice and it still won't do what they want. But I think they should have kept it in but downgraded the functionality to deal with the UK environment.

Posted by: tivo_boj

I believe first run is needed for the UK. I want to set up a season or wishlist once and leave it. I want it to ignore repeated series, and capture new ones. I want to leave the passes for the life of the program (ie Enteprise is rumored to be contracted for 7 years, so i want tiVo capture each new series as it appears,and ignore the repeats that willl no doubt be aired when each series if finished and we await the new series)

Properly inplemented would mean a lot of season passes can be set up for a long period. To make it work good data is required. tiVo have done the hard work (software developement) just need good data from tribune!!!

I have ranted about tribune before, so I leave it there!!!!

Posted by: timjon

The obvious solution is to apply "First run" to the most recent series being shown on each channel. That way people on E4 will see the latest series of Friends now, and people who have to wait until it comes round on C4 will see it then. Since a season pass is only "per channel", this shouldn't cause any confusion.

I'd say this was fairly logical, personally. What isn't logical is the current setup where you either have to revert to setting a manual repeating recording, effectively turning your sophisticated TiVo into a cheap video recorder, or put up with your TiVo recording loads of stuff you don't want (and possibly wiping out stuff you do).

Cheers,

Tim.

Posted by: ALanJay

quote:
Originally posted by timjon
The obvious solution is to apply "First run" to the most recent series being shown on each channel.

Sounds all well and good but that unfortunately is NOT the way first run works.

"First Run" uses the "Original Air Date" which is held in the Episode data - not what has been sugested is that Tribune will chaneg this from being THE "Original Air Date" to the First time it is shown on UK TV or maybe a variable date dependant on channel - no one has seen what they will actually do.

The problem with this is that Tribune will be altering or running UK data parallel to their US master episode database (potentially) and this will most likely lead to more not fewer errors.

What is really silly is that as you say the obvious thing to do is to make first run imply CURRENT SEASON on this channel. As the episode number and often series information in available in the Tribune Episode database this would be more than enough information that is already provided by Tribune to solve the UK isses.

But it appears that this is not going to be done - it would have required a chnage to the current 2.5.5 code to alter the First Run rule for the UK. So we now have a system that to work requires Tribune to hack their database (unless multiple original air dates are possible in the database - sounds implausable as original and multiple really don't go well together).

I hope I am proved wrong and Tribune can mage to pull the rabbit out of the hat but their past history on this doesn't bode well. Getting accurate episode and Original Air Dates for UK made programmes is going to be hard enough let alone the isses for all the US programmes. What is worse is that the reality is we do not NEED a US style "First Run" we want what you suggest a Season descriminator a much easier thing to implement and code.

Oh well just shove "first run" in the top draw and forget about it.

Posted by: mrtickle

Amazing - I've read this thread which gives details of some specific schedule errors for quite a few programmes. Yet none of them have been posted to the Schedule Errors thread!

How on Earth do you expect Tribune to fix the errors if you can't even be bothered to report them?

Instead of shoving it in a drawer and forgetting about it (to nick that phrase - ta!), how about going through your ToDo lists and Recording Historys and reporting all the errors in the right place? Report the Ally McBeal errors. Report the MASH errors. Etc. That would benefit every TiVo owner in the UK. Moaning about it in this thread but doing nothing about it won't help anyone.

Posted by: ozsat

Yep - Tribune do look at SPECIAL THREAD: TiVo Programme Listings/Schedule Errors - but I guess (like me) do not have time to look at all the others.

Posted by: Foxxie

I have a related but opposite problem to the one being discussed.

I want to set up a season pass for the Sunday repeats of Enterprise. TIVO will not let me do this because it tries to record the Monday night first run showing and tells me I cannot have this season pass because it clashes with a season pass for Eastenders!

At present I rely on memory to record Enterprise every week (only a matter of time before this lets me down!!!!) - will the new software upgrade solve this or is there another way to do this now that I may be ignorant of?

Posted by: Richardr

Why not put a repeating manual recording for the Sunday showing?

In 2.5.5 there is a season pass manager. You should place Eastenders above Enterprise, and it should record Eastenders on the monday and Enterprise on the Sunday (or vice versa if you prefer).

Posted by: Brownedger

First run works fine if you want LIve football on Sky Sports and not get the repeats, the air date is the day of the game.

Posted by: okonski_uk

quote:
Originally posted by Matthew Finlayson

You seem to have missed the point.

Don't think so - the data as provided to Tivo is less than useless. I doubt any broadcaster would even call this a 'Schedule'. Let me guess, Paramount send the same listings to the VT Player and it pulls out the Betacarts in random order?

The Episode information is well known to Paramount, just that they're not aware that it matters to anyone - and ordinarily, it doesn't. If nobody complains, then it ain't going to be fixed.

Just as the rail network has a published timetable and a 'real' one seen by staff, there is no reason why Tribune should not be given the underlying schedule with episode information, even if it is only an episode reference, whether hidden or not. I find the bland acceptance of the supplied information breathtaking, especially when a real schedule does exist.

Posted by: mrtickle

quote:
Originally posted by okonski_uk

If nobody complains, then it ain't going to be fixed.

Exactly. And several hours since my earlier post, still nobody has bothered to add any errors to the Schedule Errors thread which Tribune check daily.

Posted by: earthling

Always one for trying to find and suggest solutions instead of just complaining, I came up with this idea:

Currently TiVo looks at the original air date and sees if the broadcast date is within 28 days of that. If it is not, it does not class it as a 'First Run'. Most US imports have and OAD of several months before the UK premiere, therefore TiVo doesn't see them as first runs.

However, if TiVo changed the parameter '28 days' to '9 months' (or maybe slightly longer), this would fix the problem in the majority of cases.

E.g. Friends new series is shown on E4 3-4 months after US, so it would catch that. Same for Enterprise, The Simpsons, ER, etc. You name it.

Terrestrial repeats are shown about 8 months after the US, so Friends on C4 would also get picked *if* you set the Season Pass up on C4. That's the beauty of this solution. Whatever channel you set the season pass on (within reason), it will work for.

And it is very rare that a series is repeated on the SAME channel WITHIN 9 months of original premiering. Certainly you'd get more successful recordings using First Run this way.

Currently, I have a manual recording set up for my First Runs, and have set it to First Runs and Repeats. The feature is therefore useless. With the above tiny code change, it would work perfectly for all my programmes.

Anyone else care to bombard TiVo with requests for this? ;)

Posted by: GarySargent

Maybe we could temporarily set our clocks back a few months until the next software release? ;):D

Posted by: timjon

quote:
Originally posted by mrtickle

Exactly. And several hours since my earlier post, still nobody has bothered to add any errors to the Schedule Errors thread which Tribune check daily.

My apologies - I was under the assumption that nobody was actually reading that thread. If they are, then I'll try to make a quick list of the current problems and post them over there.

The problem is that I don't actually have time to go through the listings data and work out all the correct options - and to be absolutely blunt about it, isn't that Tribune's job?

The occasional error will always creep in, and that's fine. The current data looks as though they haven't even bothered to put any first run information in, though, so it seemed more appropriate to give them a general prod than try to list every omission. :)

Why don't we all chip in and buy Tribune a subscription to digiuide? ;)

(edit - I've now added Ally McBeal and Friends not being set as "First Run" to the "tribune listings errors" thread. Let me know if I didn't do it properly. :))

Cheers,

Tim.

Posted by: ALanJay

quote:
Originally posted by okonski_uk

Don't think so - the data as provided to Tivo is less than useless. I doubt any broadcaster would even call this a 'Schedule'. Let me guess, Paramount send the same listings to the VT Player and it pulls out the Betacarts in random order?

The Episode information is well known to Paramount, just that they're not aware that it matters to anyone - and ordinarily, it doesn't. If nobody complains, then it ain't going to be fixed.

But it looks like across the board Paramount have not told anyone what the running / episode order is expected to be. If they are doing it correctly and starting at episode one and working through them all then it should be possible to syncronise a extrenal database to the actually playing episodes.

Sure Paramount know what is planned to be played they just seem to have decided not to tell anyone in advance - take a look at some of the online EPGs that are out there (both digiguide and radiotimes have the same generic information).

This is not an excuse for Tribune - they should see what is happening and then get the correct expected EPG data - after all at least then they could scedule the repeats correctly.

Posted by: ALanJay

quote:
Originally posted by earthling
Always one for trying to find and suggest solutions instead of just complaining, I came up with this idea:

Currently TiVo looks at the original air date and sees if the broadcast date is within 28 days of that. If it is not, it does not class it as a 'First Run'. Most US imports have and OAD of several months before the UK premiere, therefore TiVo doesn't see them as first runs.

However, if TiVo changed the parameter '28 days' to '9 months' (or maybe slightly longer), this would fix the problem in the majority of cases.

Anyone else care to bombard TiVo with requests for this? ;)

Actually I think the ideal number is just over a year to catch both pay TV and Terrestrial TV "new series" (I don't like to use first run as it is very confusing).

As the underlying issue is that we want to record all of the CURRENT season and not previous seasons (which will be a year older than the current season) so setting the rule to 400 days should catch all the Sky One; E4; C4 issues - which are really the only ones that are a problem as you really don't need (95% of the time) to use "First Run" option for BBC channels.

Tribune could then use "Original Air Dates" correctly and not have to worry about hacking their series database. They have to find them for UK originated programmes which is hard enough as is isn't data that UK broadcasters provide it is in the realm of "nerd" data and nothing that the broadcaster cares about.

PS Forgot to say of course changing this would require a change to the 2.5.5 code so it won't happen :)

Posted by: ALanJay

quote:
Originally posted by timjon
The occasional error will always creep in, and that's fine. The current data looks as though they haven't even bothered to put any first run information in, though, so it seemed more appropriate to give them a general prod than try to list every omission. :)

Worse as far as I can tell Tribunes solution is to switch off the episode function "isEpisode False" which means that the 28 day rule doesn't work. So to stop people who use first run incorrectly getting nothing they seem to be killing the 28 day rule which is much more useful. (I do need to do some more checks on this and if I get a chance will do but that seems to be the gut feeling this seems to have got worse since they were told to pull their finger out.)

quote:

Why don't we all chip in and buy Tribune a subscription to digiuide? ;)

Tim.

Won't help MASH and ELLEN for example on Paramount don't have any episode data on Digiguide or RadioTimes (when I checked last).

PS - Tim I agree that the occasional error will occur and it actually isn't the end of the world :) It is better to have enouhg data so that repeats are not picked up with correct "generic guide data" but swithcing to generic episode data and loosing all the repeat removal is a negative step. (throwing the baby out with the bath water).

Posted by: ALanJay

quote:
Originally posted by GarySargent
Maybe we could temporarily set our clocks back a few months until the next software release? ;):D

Ahh Gary we have found your sarcasm button ;) :D

Posted by: doubledrat

It's quite simple. For first run to work, the original air date (AOAD) needs to reflect the date the programme aired on THAT channel.

Until this is the case, DON'T use first run, or you might miss programmes.

If I want to record friends on chn4, first runs only (to catch the new series when it airs), having an OAD of when the episode aired on sky1 (or even worse in the USA!) is of no help at all.

As Gary said, the 28 day rule will prevent recording of repeats if the same ep is shown several times a week. (as long as the guide data is good). And isn't it better to record something you don't want rather than not record something you do want?!

Posted by: timjon

quote:
Originally posted by doubledrat
And isn't it better to record something you don't want rather than not record something you do want?!

For those of you with 240 Gb TiVo's, sure. :) For most mortals, though, if those extra unwanted recordings end up "bumping out" something you did want, you've ended up in the same situation - you've lost something you wanted to watch.

The only real solution at the moment is to set up a regular scheduled recording instead of a season pass. This isn't a major problem, especially on channels like E4 where the schedules are almost certain to remain static, but it does somewhat undermine TiVo's ease of use.

Cheers,

Tim.

Posted by: ALanJay

quote:
Originally posted by doubledrat
It's quite simple. For first run to work, the original air date (OAD) needs to reflect the date the programme aired on THAT channel.

Though the pedantic around would say that then it isn't "the ORIGINAL" air date but some other date that specifys when it first appeared on that channel. :)

quote:

Until this is the case, DON'T use first run, or you might miss programmes.

Totally correct. Using first run will almost certainly guarentee a failure a some time.

quote:

If I want to record friends on chn4, first runs only (to catch the new series when it airs), having an OAD of when the episode aired on sky1 (or even worse in the USA!) is of no help at all.

Indeed - the only simple solution is a manual repeating recording of the copy you want andhope that Sky One / E4 / C4 don't change their schedules (fortunately they don't too often).

quote:

As Gary said, the 28 day rule will prevent recording of repeats if the same ep is shown several times a week. (as long as the guide data is good). And isn't it better to record something you don't want rather than not record something you do want?!

It is better to err on the side of caution BUT and it is a big but when you have programmes that are on every day with the new season on once a day it takes TiVo from select and forget it does the hard work to you have to make sure you are getting the correct episodes. As was seen with Stargate in the run up to last week "First Run" works if Tribune don't mess up the data (and they did one week) and this is about the only series where it worked because the UK happened to be ahead of the US.

Tribune still have a lot of work to do to even get the 28 day rule working efectively and from my perspective that is important the "First Run" thing is a red herring which is unlikely to work reliably and for most channels isn't needed and which is confusing because it implies something in "english" which is different to the US so people will think they should use it.

Looking at the UK instructions for TiVo on the uk site under recording options we have:

Show Type. (Only available for a repeated recording.) The choices are �Repeats & first run,� and �First run only,� which records only new episodes.

Which I think many of us would feel is misleading in the extreme - it would be nice if this was true :) Next job today while being ill at home looks like a play to find out if any programmes currently work in First Run mode.

Posted by: ALanJay

quote:
Originally posted by timjon

The only real solution at the moment is to set up a regular scheduled recording instead of a season pass. This isn't a major problem, especially on channels like E4 where the schedules are almost certain to remain static, but it does somewhat undermine TiVo's ease of use.

Cheers,

Tim.

Here here - totally agree.

Posted by: bignoise

quote:
Originally posted by okonski_uk
Because they use a website that doesn't give the correct information? Sorry Ant, but it is up to them to find out. They have paying customers requiring the information. A press office will always provide the information on request. Even if something arose to prevent this, then it would be fairly easy to code which is the Episode, and which is the repeat.

You don't seem to have understood what I said. That website carries the information which IS issued to the press! Sure, it's issued on paper to most places, the only reason I mention the website is so that you can see easily exactly what was issued to the press, and to TiVo. Those are THE official listings.

Do you seriously think that any listings company has the time to ring up every single channel and say "Excuse me, but you didn't say which episode was shown on such-and-such a date, what is it please?".. Do you seriously think that the response they'd get would be anything other than "If we KNEW what episode it was, we would have mentioned it IN THE LISTINGS!" ?

You say "it would be fairly easy to code .. which is the episode, and which is the repeat" - how do you do that when the data the broadcaster is issuing does not say? Do you GUESS? Sorry, I'd want something a bit more reliable than "well, the next day's episode is USUALLY a repeat of the previous night". You could lose a whole lot of recordings that way.

Now I'm not saying that broadcasters shouldn't be encouraged to provide better, fully episodic data, because, yes, they should. (And some do) But once listings have been issued, that published data is all there is. They can't magic better data out of thin air. If this is what the broadcasters are issuing, this is what TiVo will display.

In the case of MASH - look around. Is there ANY listings source which has episodic details for that show? Not the Sky EPG. Not the ONdigital EPG. Not Digiguide. Not Teletext. Nothing. Nowhere.
Sure, maybe armed with a M*A*S*H episode guide you could guess - but that's not good enough. Devices like TiVo need the authoritative data, direct from the broadcaster - because nothing else will do. And when the broadcaster doesn't issue it, there's no further to go.

My point is that you can't expect TiVo to have data which doesn't exist.

Posted by: bignoise

quote:
Originally posted by okonski_uk
Don't think so - the data as provided to Tivo is less than useless. I doubt any broadcaster would even call this a 'Schedule'. Let me guess, Paramount send the same listings to the VT Player and it pulls out the Betacarts in random order?

I'd imagine those "listings" would be "Play M*A*S*H episode 103 at 19:00:30" - or more likely "Play tape number 50505050 at 19:00:30" - useful? No. A broadcaster's house numbers would be no use to TiVo at all - and even an episode number would be worth nothing because some channels show programmes in different orders to others.

Nothing less than a specific episode title will do.

Paramount's listings are usually pretty good - pretty much everything else has an episodic listing, (my TiVo never has any problem knowing which episodes of Senifeld and Roseanne are repeats and which aren't, for example) - it just seems that MASH doesn't have that information at the moment. Probably because it's a new show on that channel. Given that most satellite/cable channels have to issue their listings to the press something like 6-8 weeks ahead of the actual transmission date, they probably just did not have the information at the time.

I do think you're being too hard. You're being too hard on TiVo for not having data which doesn't exist, and ultimately at the end of the day it's not the end of the world if you get something recorded twice. It's better than not having it recorded at all, and it's not as if that "wasted" hard disc space can't be re-used instantly by just deleting the unwanted showing. Hey, delete it from your ToDo list before it even records to be doubly sure!

The best is the enemy of the good.

Posted by: bignoise

Here's a suggestion for sorting out first run issues.

TiVo/Tribune must, presumably, have the listings data for all the channels since, at least, the launch of TiVo in the UK (October 2000) - right?

Right. So working out a UK "first run" date is a simple data crunching exercise.

"Has this episode of this series been screened on this channel before?"

If yes, the original air date is the date of the first screening.
If no, the original air date is this episode's air date.

It's pure number crunching. While I hesitate to fall into the same trap as everyone else, I dare say that this would be "easy" to do.

Posted by: Richardr

Back to Paramount and M*A*S*H (!).

Following Bignoise's suggestion of looking at the Paramount issued listings on their web site, I notice that from March they include an episode description for the daytime showings, but not the evening showings. This description then correctly shows up in the TIVO listings for that showing.

There are days with an evening programme, but no daytime programme, so it isn't just a straight repeat, but no doubt there is method to connecting the two. if those M*A*S*H viewers know it, then perhaps they should post it with this information in the channel listings thread.

Posted by: manolan

Well, at the risk of stirring things up again, can I suggest that those people who want better episode data for Paramount progs take the issue up with Paramount directly. If enough people ask for it, they might feel obliged to sort it out.