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Tivo Upgrade Policy
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Posted by: ThePilot

I called Tivo last night because I couldnt believe their policy. Maybe someone here can make sense of it. I was going to upgrade my subscription to lifetime until they told me that if I upgraded to the new Tivo unit I would lose my $200 subscription.
I am willing to pay them for a new unit and they are going to thank me by making me buy a whole new subscription. Am I nuts?? I like to always have the latest and greatest hardware and We all know that by next year they will probably have a third gen machine that I will want. I absolutely love my Tivo and am willing to pay whatever they want for the service but this is kind of annoying. Am I alone in this thought???

Posted by: Breacagan

Because the lifetime subscription is transferrable, you should have little trouble recovering most or all of the value of the subscription upon resale.

Posted by: BrettStah

To clarify what byronshock meant... the lifetime service stays with the box, so if you sell it on eBay, the Tivo, along with the lifetime service, can be transferred into the buyer's name. You can then take the money you made on the sale (last time I checked the 30 hour standalones with lifetime service were going for about $400 or so) and pay for a good chunk of the new Tivo with lifetime service.

Think about it this way. If you buy a car and get an extended warranty, that warranty won't tranfer to a new car that you get. Same basic concept in play here...

Posted by: glennf

Sounds like 'ThePilot' went ballastic about this one.

If you're gonna keep buying new hardware all the time so you can be the coolest guy on the block, maybe you better just pay the $12.95/month. If you don't like my reply you can just go jump out of an airplane.:D

Posted by: jsmeeker

yeah.. Go month to month.

If you don't like my answer either, do what glennf said. But make sure you aren't the one flying the plane. If you are, do it way over the ocean with the plane out of trim.

Posted by: ThePilot

Thanks for the flying advice.

My issue is not with the money as much as with their policy. I know the subscription goes with the unit. But that just makes us salesmen for Tivo. What if the guy from ebay who wants to buy my old tivo just wants it to drop out of an airplane but now has to pay for a subscription he may not want. And I am not going ballistic, asy you say, I was just looking for other opinions.

Posted by: BrettStah

quote:
Originally posted by ThePilot
Thanks for the flying advice.

My issue is not with the money as much as with their policy. I know the subscription goes with the unit. But that just makes us salesmen for Tivo. What if the guy from ebay who wants to buy my old tivo just wants it to drop out of an airplane but now has to pay for a subscription he may not want. And I am not going ballistic, asy you say, I was just looking for other opinions.

If he doesn't want a Tivo with lifetime subscription, he can find other Tivos on eBay that are for sale without lifetime subscription.

Let's say that Tivo-powered systems are released for the next 10-12 years, with new models every 2-3 years on average. Do you really expect to pay lifetime service one time, transferring the service to a new model every time they release one?

Just pretend that the lifetime service was part of your original purchase price, and you'll find their policy easier to believe... :)

Posted by: ThePilot

It wasnt my idea to call it 'lifetime' service, it was theirs, any yeah, stupid me for believing them. I do, however, see your point. Despite the fact that Tivo was rather misleading in their promotion we can all apparently aqree that it is worth what we pay for it.

Posted by: BrettStah

quote:
Originally posted by ThePilot
It wasnt my idea to call it 'lifetime' service, it was theirs, any yeah, stupid me for believing them. I do, however, see your point. Despite the fact that Tivo was rather misleading in their promotion we can all apparently aqree that it is worth what we pay for it.

OK, we agree! :)

BTW, exactly what promotion did you see that was misleading? The reason I ask is that in the beginning, it was very vague... vague enough that if you bought a Tivo and purchased lifetime service before a certain date you can actually transfer the service to another unit (only one time, though). Everything I've seen mentions that the service is tied to the box.

Posted by: bonscott87

quote:
Originally posted by ThePilot
It wasnt my idea to call it 'lifetime' service, it was theirs, any yeah, stupid me for believing them. I do, however, see your point. Despite the fact that Tivo was rather misleading in their promotion we can all apparently aqree that it is worth what we pay for it.

I don't see how it's misleading. If you had done a little research you would have known it's the lifetime of the box before you ever bought the Tivo in the first place. Tivo is very up front about this in all their documentation and on their web site. It's hard to miss.

Posted by: LifeIsABeach

One other point. TiVo does not make any money on the hardware, only on the software. They actually lost money on every Series 1 which was purchased and are now break-even on each Series 2 IIRC. So it may seem like TiVo should want you to upgrade and buy a Series 2, but it really does not help their bottom line at all. Anyway, at this point there really isn't much of a reason to upgrade to a Series 2 if you already have a Series 1. I am waiting to see what the USB ports are going to be used for before I consider upgrading.

Posted by: kilcher

Everything I've seen from TiVo refers to it as a "product lifetime subscription". I don't think that's misleading at all.

Posted by: MichaelK

ya know till i read this thread i just thought people were being silly about the whole not transfering thing but now i think maybe the pilot has a point.

Frankly i dont have a better choice in my head but maybe tivo should find a better name for 'lifetime'.

It was actually Kilcher's post that made me think that possible it isnt as cut and dry as I thought.

does 'product lifetime subscribtion' get translated in peoples heads as 'product-lifetime, subscribtion' or as 'product, lifetime-subscription'.

Evendently judging by the confusion, some of us read it one way and some of us read it the other.

Posted by: jlb

ThePilot:

What are your reasons for getting the New series 2?

If it is for the possible expansion capabilities related to the USB port or the faster processor, then that is one thing. But if you are thinking about "upgrading" because the new TiVO has more Space than your older one then I would seriously consider doing a hard drive upgrade to your existing one.

I have not upgraded my AT&TiVO yet as it is plenty of space for my basic cable lineup. However, the Hinsdale upgrade guide and other information/help that is available in the upgrade forum pretty much assures me that the upgrade process is relatively easy.

Posted by: ThePilot

The reason I was considering the upgrade was because I was going to take advantage of their offer of converting from a monthly sub to a 'lifetime' before they raise the monthly price. It makes no sense to spend $200 on a 'lifetime' subscription if I was going to lose it if I upgrade any time soon. It would only make sense to get the latest hardware before I committed to the 'lifetime' sub.
That was the reason I started this thread in the first place. It is more than a question of just upgrading hardware when you have to consider the consequences of losing an expensive subscription.
I guess my best bet is to stay with the monthly rate.

Posted by: jtg

I agree. I too do not the words lifetime subscription but they are at least saying the it does follow the recorder. Here's another way to look at it. Let's say you bought a 3 year subscription to a magazine. Do you think if you moved to a new address that they would allow you to change the address of your subscription? Ooops. I guess I just agreed again with Pilot.

Pilot, they do say this though,

"But, don't worry: if you repair or replace this recorder through the manufacturer or TiVo authorized program, the Product Lifetime subscription will still be active."

Maybe they will offer a "Tivo authorized program" to upgrade current Tivos to a series 2.........Maybe.......

Posted by: ThePilot

Now you're thinking!!! That is why I called Customer Care and why I started this thread. I dont want to leave TiVo. I've said it before, I am hooked on it and wont ever be without one again. If I am willing to pay them for a new upgraded unit, which, by the way, I am buying from them, then why should I be penalized by losing my sub?
It will cost them no more to provide service to the new unit as it would for the old unit. They should be making some profit on the sale of the new unit. And if I sell my old unit the new owner will probably sign up for the service, TiVo gets another new customer, and it is a win win for everyone. And the new owner can make his own decision whether to go monthly or lifetime.
I am happy, TiVo is happy, and the guy with my old unit is happy.
In addition to all this, when they come out with the 3rd gen, hopefully with Hi def and Dolby sound, I will buy that and the whole cycle starts all over. Sounds like good business to me.

Posted by: aciurczak

I'm going to jump in late with a minor point. Pilot - you can have pretty much the same financial outcome as your previous post, but in your description, Tivo is taking the risk of whether or not someone else subscribes to your box, and it only works if you take on the risk of whether someone subscribes.

What I mean is, subscribe your box now to lifetime for $200. You're out $200, but you pay no monthly fees. Wait until you want to upgrade. When you want to upgrade, sell your box on eBay. Lifetime subscribed Tivo's go for substantially more than non-subscribed, and many sellers get almost all of their money back. This might trend downward as the boxes get much older, but hopefully not too quickly.

Buy your new box, and get lifetime on it. So at the end of all that, your costs are ($250 + $200 - eBay's value of lifetime), which should be be pretty close to $250 to $300. You have your lifetime service on your new upgraded box. The guy you sold your box to has lifetime service. Tivo is relatively happy since they now have 2 subscribers instead of 1.

In a perfect world (for a tivo customer, not for tivo the company), lifetime would transfer to whatever boxes you want, for as long as you want. Ain't gonna happen. Find a way to make their policies work for you instead.

Posted by: MichaelK

quote:
Originally posted by ThePilot
They should be making some profit on the sale of the new unit.

there's you problem. In the past they lost money on the sale. Now supposedly they dont lose money, but no one has asaid that they are profiting either.

Posted by: feldon23

ThePilot,

You are under the delusion that TiVo makes any money on the boxes. They don't.

Posted by: ThePilot

If TiVo wants to sell their hardware at a loss that should not be my problem. I dont really think that is the case if you think it through. They are no different than DirecTV or the cell phone people. They are really in the business of selling their service; which obviously doesnt work without the hardware. And, by the way, the cable company doesnt charge anything for their converter box, the phone company, in the past, didnt charge for their phone equipment, the cell phone companies practically give their phones away, DirecTV will give you a dish and receiver and come to your house and install it for nthing. This is the way they generate business for what they want to do; sell their service.

Unfortuneately this is what it takes to roll out new technology and TiVo has made that decision. It is their business, not mine. They really do have a great service and I have no doubt that they will succeed. I am in a construction related business and I have to give away my technical expertise and free estimates, which cost plenty, in order to sell work. It is called 'the cost of doing business'. TiVo if forcing all of us to be their sales force and the risk of whether or not we can sell their service has become our burden. Maybe they should have included their subscription price in the price of the hardware, like Replay did.

Posted by: MichaelK

I like your cell phone analogy- your exactly right.

Sure the cell phone company seels the phone at a loss, but you have to sign up for a year of service (and in the beginning maybe even it was 2 years). Tivo just wants to make sure you sign up for 19.24 months of service at a minimum (which is the cost of a 'liftime'.

If you bail on your cell phone company in that year then you owe them money. If you give the old phone to your wife, etc. than they are happy. Tivo is happy if you transfer the lifetime service too. So just sell the thing on ebaylike others have suggested.

Also if you think anyone is giving you a cablebox, a cell phone, or a phone for free, think again its just built into the price my friend. YOu phone compay example proves the point- they made plenty of money by ripping us off for the service in the past so they could afford the great generosity of the free phones, now that they charge realistic prices you need to buy your own. Tivo was WAY OFF with there plan- they didnt even charge enough to cover their costs on their service, never mind pay for your equipment. That you can find fault with them for, but even that is a tough call- can you really be pissed that they undercharged everyone up to this point?

ABout tyour thought about including the sercves in the price of the box upfronty like replay- thats funny. First they were on the verge of going out of business with that plan. Next if you really think that, than pay the Tivo lifetime now and assume it was part of the purchase price- the replays cost 2-300 more for a roughly equivalent tivo for just that reason.

I'm no great tivo defender (although i love the thing) dont waste your time being upset and just listen to aciurczak.

Posted by: Mars Rocket

quote:
Originally posted by jtg
I agree. I too do not the words lifetime subscription but they are at least saying the it does follow the recorder. Here's another way to look at it. Let's say you bought a 3 year subscription to a magazine. Do you think if you moved to a new address that they would allow you to change the address of your subscription? Ooops. I guess I just agreed again with Pilot.

Your analogy is flawed. Using the magazine subscription theme, it's more like this:

You buy a 3-year subscription to Maxim, and after receivng 5 issues you decide you like Playboy better, so you ask them to transfer the remainder of the subscription to the new magazine. What? They won't do it? How dare they!

Actually, most publishers would refund the remainder of the subscription price if you canceled, but you get the idea.

Posted by: Lori

I'm moving this to the Coffee House.

Posted by: jtg

I see your point MarsRocket. There are so many ways to look at it. I think my anology was better because when you change the tivo box you change the "address" tied to your account......change of address??!! :p

Anyway, someone before you said the perfect thing. "Buy the lifetime and pretend you paid $250 more for the unit" - just like the replay boxes. I agree on all the points that Tivo needs to make money and the service is it. I accept the way they do it. I just don't like the words "lifetime subscription." They can be misleading unless you really take the time to check into it. They have been doing a better job of pointing out how it works and I commend them for doing so........

Now I just gotta get them to fix my no-sound/jerky video/blue screen/until I change channels/then eventually have to reboot causing me to miss numerous season premiers and endings problem.

Posted by: smak

Man, if i see one more thread that criticizes Tivo for giving the consumer a choice of how to pay for service, i'm going to jump out of a plane myself....

You can't pay monthly with Replay
You can't pay a one time fee with Ultimate TV.

Tivo gives you a choice, and gets slammed repeatedly by people who think they can pay $250 and get free service on every product that Tivo ever makes, now until apes rule the planet.

Looking at "product lifetime" and coming up with "as long as tivo is in business" is a bit of a stretch.

-smak-

Posted by: mll

I understand the Tivo -- "Life of the box" $250 cost and though of course I'd like to pay less, I have not moral objections.

On the other hand, I would also like some other options, assuming that they make sense to Tivo, that would help me not agonize over purchasing a Tivo box (vs ReplayTV)

I'd like it if:

50% of my monthly could be applied to a "Life of box" subscription. or a new "VTR type" subscription.

50% of a "Life of Box" subscription could be applied to a new box "Life of Box" subscription, assuming I removed it from the old box.

There was a "VTR Type" subscription, ~$125, that I could purchase, either for $'s or get after 2 years of monthly use, that would allow the Tivo to be use as a Time/Channel fully schedule recorder.

There was a warranty that if the monthly service is stopped, the VTR Type of service is turned on.

Posted by: megazone

quote:
Originally posted by mll
On the other hand, I would also like some other options, assuming that they make sense to Tivo, that would help me not agonize over purchasing a Tivo box (vs ReplayTV)

Why agonize? ReplyTV sells their HW with the lifetime (of box) subscription bundled in is all. They don't offer a montly option. You're buying the HW and it includes the ability to talk to their network. No different from buying a TiVo and a lifetime subscription. Only the TiVo costs less per hour of recording time.

TiVo is offering you *more* flexibility with regard to pricing than ReplayTV does.

As for transferring the lifetime, I think I know the economic reasoning.

They subsidized each Series 1 box sold. They count on the subscription fees to make that back - be it monthly or lifetime. (Supposedly they are breaking even on Series2 HW, or at least close to it now.)

If you buy a Series 1 and get a lifetime, only use it a few months, and buy another one - if they let you transfer the lifetime they haven't covered the losses on *both* boxes.

I also believe the HW vendors (Phillips and Sony) get a cut of the HW - what if you buy a Phillips get a lifetime, and then buy a Sony and want to transfer it?

With the Series2, perhaps this will be more feasible. If they are breaking even on the HW, the worry over recouping losses vanishes. But I wouldn't expect a change too rapidly.

TiVo is certainly not the only company to use this kind of model. Game consoles sell at a loss, and companies expect to make the money back selling games. Some online multiplayer PC games are sold at a loss - with the expectation that they'll make their money on subscriptions from players. ADT sold me my alarm system at a steep discount, almost certainly losing money on the HW, because I had been a subscriber to their service at my old house for several years. And now I have at this home too, they've more than made their money back. Cell phone companies give some phones away, and sell others at a discount, if you agree to a subscription of some fixed length. They make their money on the service.

So many things in my life operate this way that I'm not at all bothered by TiVo using the same model.

Posted by: mbennett

I've heard this argument before, that gosh it's OK that
you can't transfer it to your new box, but that when you
sell your old box it'll at least stay with that.

As I understand it:

1: It would be more convenient for CUSTOMERS if it stayed
with us, and not the box.
2: I think it's odd that SA units don't transfer, but DT units do.
3: Not everybody will be able to sell their obsolete box.
4: UNLIKE CARS, computer equipment becomes obsolete
much more quickly and loses ALL value.
Would you buy a 5 year old car? Maybe.
Would you buy a 5 year old PC? Probably not.

I'm sticking with the monthly for now.

And, yes, I DO LOVE TIVO, even if this particular policy annoys me.

Mark

Posted by: BrettStah

quote:
Originally posted by mbennett
I've heard this argument before, that gosh it's OK that
you can't transfer it to your new box, but that when you
sell your old box it'll at least stay with that.

As I understand it:

1: It would be more convenient for CUSTOMERS if it stayed
with us, and not the box.
2: I think it's odd that SA units don't transfer, but DT units do.
3: Not everybody will be able to sell their obsolete box.
4: UNLIKE CARS, computer equipment becomes obsolete
much more quickly and loses ALL value.
Would you buy a 5 year old car? Maybe.
Would you buy a 5 year old PC? Probably not.

I'm sticking with the monthly for now.

And, yes, I DO LOVE TIVO, even if this particular policy annoys me.

Mark

1) So you think customers who pay for lifetime on their first Tivo should be able to transfer it from Tivo to Tivo, forever? You're just not getting it... it's not about "convenience". There is a certain expense related to each box. Instead of forcing customers to pay all of it upfront (like Replay), Tivo gives you a choice... pay it all upfront (lifetime), or may every month.

2) You're wrong. Lifetime fee doesn't transfer for ANY Tivos (unless you purchased the lifetime a couple of years ago.

3) They can sell it, or keep it. Their choice.

4) $249/$12.95 = about 19 months. If you don't think you'll be using your Tivo for 19 months (or don't think you can recoup enough money if you sell it), then isn't it cool that Tivo gives you the choice to pay monthly?

Posted by: Dredd

quote:
Originally posted by BrettStah
Let's say that Tivo-powered systems are released for the next 10-12 years, with new models every 2-3 years on average. Do you really expect to pay lifetime service one time, transferring the service to a new model every time they release one?

OK, so I'll ask the question... "Why not?"

The subscription service doesn't change from one version to another. My "subscription" (which is software updates and scheduling info) will continue to come down daily on a "Tivo Mk. I", just as frequently and at just as much expense (if not MORE expense, to maintain an old platform) as it does for a "Tivo Mk. II", III, or XIX.

One could make a good case that allowing "old" tivo owners to move the subscription to the "current" hardware base is a good way of getting old hardware out of the support chain for Tivo, and the less they have to support antique hardware that's "only being kept live because of the subscription stuck on it", the lower Tivo's support costs will be, increasing future profitabilty.

So... I'll ask again... Why NOT?

Posted by: aindik

quote:
Originally posted by smak

Looking at "product lifetime" and coming up with "as long as tivo is in business" is a bit of a stretch.

This assumes, of course, that "product lifetime" will be shorter than "as long as tivo stays in business."

Accurately, a lifetime subscription is for the shorter of "as long as tivo stays in business, or someone else is around providing the service" and "product lifetime."

Posted by: The Bird

quote:
Originally posted by ThePilot
I was going to upgrade my subscription to lifetime until they told me that if I upgraded to the new Tivo unit I would lose my $200 subscription.

So your currently on the monthly plan want to switch to lifetime at $199 for the new recorder. They say $12.95/mo or $249.00/lifetime so were not talking about $200.00 were talking about $50.00 loss.

Posted by: BrettStah

quote:
Originally posted by Dredd

OK, so I'll ask the question... "Why not?"

The subscription service doesn't change from one version to another. My "subscription" (which is software updates and scheduling info) will continue to come down daily on a "Tivo Mk. I", just as frequently and at just as much expense (if not MORE expense, to maintain an old platform) as it does for a "Tivo Mk. II", III, or XIX.

One could make a good case that allowing "old" tivo owners to move the subscription to the "current" hardware base is a good way of getting old hardware out of the support chain for Tivo, and the less they have to support antique hardware that's "only being kept live because of the subscription stuck on it", the lower Tivo's support costs will be, increasing future profitabilty.

So... I'll ask again... Why NOT?

Tivo is still taking in money for a large percentage of their Series1 Tivos (via the monthly subscribers). I'm pretty sure that they definitely NOT actively trying to get this "old" hardware out of support chain. So I would disagree with your basic premise...

Now, for lifetime subscribers, if you buy a new Series2 Tivo, and were able to just transfer the service over, how has Tivo made money from the deal? (Remember, the point is for Tivo to get paid for the service.) They will hope that you or someone you give your old Tivo to will re-activate it, but there's no guarantee on that.

On the other hand, by forcing you to pay for the service on the new one separately, they are guaranteed to get paid for the service on the new Tivo. You are free to find someone else to buy your old Tivo (check out eBay for the going rate... about $450 last time I checked).

Also, the average Tivo is probably predicted to remain active a certain amount of time, and the lifetime fee amount has been calculated to take that into account.

If I pay for an extended warranty on a Sony A/V receiver I buy at Best Buy, I don't expect that I can transfer it over to a new Sony A/V receiver I want to buy a year later. I'll have to pay for a new warranty for the new receiver.

For those of you like me who dislike monthly fees enough to want to go with the lifetime service, here's how to get over this: Just look at the hardware price + lifetime fee as being the true cost of your Tivo.

Posted by: Dredd

quote:
Originally posted by BrettStah

Tivo is still taking in money for a large percentage of their Series1 Tivos (via the monthly subscribers). I'm pretty sure that they definitely NOT actively trying to get this "old" hardware out of support chain. So I would disagree with your basic premise...

Don't think so "short-term"... when there's a Tivo3 and a Tivo4, you can bet your sweet bippy that Tivo will wish they'd allowed Tivo1 users to simply sell the old-box, move the subscription to the Tivo2, and called it a day. At some point, Tivo will grow tired/unable to support "old" hardware, but since that hardware has lifetime subscriptions firmly attached to it, they'll be forced to support it. At least if they allowed Tivo1 subs to be xferred to Tivo2's, they could eventially say "we're not offering new subs on Tivo1 hardware", allowing the old hardware to slowly be phased out in favor of new hardware.

quote:

Now, for lifetime subscribers, if you buy a new Series2 Tivo, and were able to just transfer the service over, how has Tivo made money from the deal? (Remember, the point is for Tivo to get paid for the service.) They will hope that you or someone you give your old Tivo to will re-activate it, but there's no guarantee on that.

If I don't upgrade because I don't feel any desire to go through the hassle of trying to hawk my subscription to someone else, how have they made money? I can show how, in the LONG run, they'll LOSE money by being forced to support the older hardware.

quote:

Also, the average Tivo is probably predicted to remain active a certain amount of time, and the lifetime fee amount has been calculated to take that into account.

That's "their problem" if they've miscalculated things, or used a bad standard for calculating expected "cost" of providing service.

quote:

If I pay for an extended warranty on a Sony A/V receiver I buy at Best Buy, I don't expect that I can transfer it over to a new Sony A/V receiver I want to buy a year later. I'll have to pay for a new warranty for the new receiver.

Can you cite somewhere you get LIFETIME extended warranties? I have to believe that any place that gives LIFETIME extended warranties would be only too happy to let you transfer it to new hardware as you buy it, because the newer hardware is unlikely to NEED the warranty, which means there's less likelihood of them needing to actually pay out on it... and the longer/older the product gets, the more likely it is to need warranty work, and the higher that warranty work is likely to cost. If they don't let you transfer it to new hardware, they're shooting themselves quite painfully in the foot.

But, again, I don't know any places that sell LIFETIME extended warranties. Most are short-term warranties where the cost ratio has been carefully calculated, and the "max duration" is such that it'll never reach into that realm of "really painful to the warrantor" to live up to their end of the bargain.

Posted by: BrettStah

quote:
Originally posted by Dredd

Don't think so "short-term"... when there's a Tivo3 and a Tivo4, you can bet your sweet bippy that Tivo will wish they'd allowed Tivo1 users to simply sell the old-box, move the subscription to the Tivo2, and called it a day. At some point, Tivo will grow tired/unable to support "old" hardware, but since that hardware has lifetime subscriptions firmly attached to it, they'll be forced to support it. At least if they allowed Tivo1 subs to be xferred to Tivo2's, they could eventially say "we're not offering new subs on Tivo1 hardware", allowing the old hardware to slowly be phased out in favor of new hardware.

If and when Tivo reaches "some point" where they may want to phase out the Series1 Tivos, they could easily offer a rebate/discount. Obviously they aren't at that point yet.

quote:

If I don't upgrade because I don't feel any desire to go through the hassle of trying to hawk my subscription to someone else, how have they made money? I can show how, in the LONG run, they'll LOSE money by being forced to support the older hardware.

Tivo decided to let users pay either monthly (like UTV owners are forced to do) or pay for the service all at once (like ReplayTV owners are forced to do). Would you rather Tivo just add $249 to each Tivo? Would you find this unfair too? Each Tivo costs whatever you pay for it + $249.

quote:

That's "their problem" if they've miscalculated things, or used a bad standard for calculating expected "cost" of providing service.

They haven't "miscalcuated things" if they don't let people transfer the service. Only if they let people transfer the lifetime service over and over again would the lifetime fee be too low.

quote:
Can you cite somewhere you get LIFETIME extended warranties? I have to believe that any place that gives LIFETIME extended warranties would be only too happy to let you transfer it to new hardware as you buy it, because the newer hardware is unlikely to NEED the warranty, which means there's less likelihood of them needing to actually pay out on it... and the longer/older the product gets, the more likely it is to need warranty work, and the higher that warranty work is likely to cost. If they don't let you transfer it to new hardware, they're shooting themselves quite painfully in the foot.

But, again, I don't know any places that sell LIFETIME extended warranties. Most are short-term warranties where the cost ratio has been carefully calculated, and the "max duration" is such that it'll never reach into that realm of "really painful to the warrantor" to live up to their end of the bargain.

I has hard pressed to come up with another real-word analogy. Obviously this warranty one isn't exact. How about this: Do you think that if someone buys a ReplayTV 40 hour model ($699), they should be able to buy a new ReplayTV next year at a $249 reduced price?

So, rest assured that if Tivo thought that supporting the "old" Tivos was more trouble (and expensive) than it was worth, they would offer an incentive for people to upgrade.

Replay has had a $100 rebate for their more expensive models, for example (but I don't think it was necessarily limited to existing Replay customers).

Posted by: JPriller

quote:
"But, don't worry: if you repair or replace this recorder through the manufacturer or TiVo authorized program, the Product Lifetime subscription will still be active."

I just switched to lifetime for my Series1, and have no regrets at all.

My only concern would be if the Series1 were labeled obsolete, or they - whoever does the actual repairs - just stops offering authorized repair for them. Then being able to transfer the lifetime I got for it to a 'repaired' unit doesn't do me much good. I fully expect that to happen sometime in the future, they can't keep supporting the old hardware forever, but hopefully it won't be anytime soon.

Posted by: megazone

quote:
Originally posted by Dredd
Don't think so "short-term"... when there's a Tivo3 and a Tivo4, you can bet your sweet bippy that Tivo will wish they'd allowed Tivo1 users to simply sell the old-box, move the subscription to the Tivo2, and called it a day. At some point, Tivo will grow tired/unable to support "old" hardware, but since that hardware has lifetime subscriptions firmly attached to it, they'll be forced to support it.

1. If that point comes, then they can offer a rebate on the TiVoX, or offer the trade in then, or whatever.

2. Why would they become unable to support them? Support does not mean providing software upgrades and new features. If the HW becomes a limitation they freeze the feature set for the Series1 and it never gets another new feature. They'd only need to continue to provide the guide data, I don't see that being a big problem. They'll have to generate some guide data for the TiVoX - even if that is more complex than today, they just provide a subset for the old boxes.

I've worked for hardware vendors, and I've supported HW that had been out of production for years. It isn't a big deal, certainly not something that can't be addressed effectively.