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Why is Tivo better than the replay 4000? I don't see it.
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Posted by: holyunion
I'm having a tough time seeing why Tivo Series 2 is better than the Replay 4000. Replay is built for broadband. (And I do have a home network) It has a larger HD. Built it picture viewer for jpegs. Commercial skip. I'm sure the UI might not be as good, but I'm sure anyone would get used to it. And you can setup which shows to record from the Internet. Because it's 10/100 ethernet out of the box, transfer rates will also be faster than Tivo's usb ports, which I'm guessing are 1.0. I don't know this, and I'll be a bit more impressed if they're USB 2.0, but if they're 1.0 maxing out at 12Mbps, that really can't compete with 10/100.
So, here's the point. I'm trying to be open to liking Tivo and wanting it over a Replay, but it's just not adding up. Can anyone make a convincing arguement why I'm being stupid and why I should buy a Series 2?
Posted by: bsoft
Hardware wise, the TiVo is inferior. Bar none. Software wise, however, the TiVo blows the Replay 4000 away. It's not about UI or anything trivial, it's just that the Replay simply sucks in quite a few ways. Conflict avoidance is sparatic on the Replay, free-space-management is poor, searches sometimes seem to take forever. It's really a nightmare compared to TiVo. Even "Commercial Advance" never seems to work properly. The 4000 has quite a few nice features but which would you rather have: a fully PVR with all the bells-and-whistles or one that actually works correctly.
Point 2: Replay 4000s are absurdly expensive. TiVo Series 2 with 60 hours of recording time and including a lifetime subscription is still $50 cheaper than ReplayTV 4040 with 40 hours of recording time.
Posted by: bsoft
"And you can setup which shows to record from the Internet." - It's a nice feature, but once the novelty wears off it really isn't that useful. If you are really inclied to do so you can hook your TiVo to your computer with the serial cable and run TiVoWeb (this requires some "hacking", however).
Posted by: bsoft
Also consider that you can upgrade the HDD on TiVos (with a little work). The current record is 344 Hours, 30 Minutes (http://pvrhack.sonnik.com/tivo/tivoking.asp) using two 160GB HDDs.
Posted by: Thom
Bear in mind that I don't have any experience with the Replay machines....
My understanding is that, if your Replay machines are networked together (I mean a home network, not connected to the Internet), you can sit at one Replay and watch a recording that was on a different Replay in the house. Now THAT is an ability I would love to have! Especially if the machines could coordinate their ToDo lists (this is what makes the dual tuner DirecTivos especially nice).
Does the Replay have Wishlists? This is an ability of the Tivo software that I find the most useful, along with the ability to easily upgrade the hard drives.
- Thom
Posted by: bsoft
Another idea: have you ever considered DirecTV? Stand-alone TiVo may be nice, but DirecTV blows it away (Dual Tuners are the greatest thing since sliced bread, and the PQ is great)
Posted by: holyunion
I don't know that much about the Replay except what I read on their site and what I've read on a few forums. I don't own one. I'm trying to figure out which one to buy, a tivo or a replay.
Regarding the DirectTV, I'm sure it is nice, but I only pay 11 dollars/ month for basic cable (although I get the full $34/ month cable package) and I'm not into paying hefty monthly payments to a satellite or cable provider.
Posted by: holyunion
how do you know that stuff about Replay? Is it from personal experience or from reading other people's opinions?
dp
Posted by: bsoft
Personal experience. I got a Replay 4000 (4040) when I heard about the broadband (I have ATT Broadband Internet). I liked quite a few of the features, especially Commercial Advance, even though it was only about 75% effective. Eventually, however, I ended up going back to my TiVo in a few days - and I returned the Replay. It wasn't so much that the Replay was a bad device - but the mess of "garunteed" shows and deleting programs made my head spin. If you don't mind wrangling with your TV than the Replay is not a bad device. If you're like me and you don't want to think about TV, Replay is a poor choice. Replay makes you micro-manage your TV experience; you have to make sure that you don't accidentaly schedule a conflict, you have to delete programs, etc. If you don't manage your Replay the gears break down and everything stops working. TiVo is much more forgiving.
Posted by: bsoft
P.S. Great deal on cable. If I could get $11 cable in my area I wouldn't have DirecTV (AT&T Broadband's price hike to $45 for basic cable is what drove me away).
Posted by: bsoft
If you have AT&T Cable also consider an AT&Tivo (as they've been dubbed on this board). It's a fully-featured Series 2 but with 40 hours of space (instead of 60) and a price of $300 (instead of $400).
Posted by: ILoveMyTiVo
quote:
Originally posted by Thom
Especially if the machines could coordinate their ToDo lists (this is what makes the dual tuner DirecTivos especially nice).
They can't. Well they don't have a todo list at all - but I mean they don't have a central way to enter recordings and have it pick which Replay it's on. Watching what is on one from another is the only thing they can share.
The most complete comparison of TiVo vs. Replay is here. This is the previous non-networked version, but the space management/recording methods/inability to tell what will record/etc are still the same. So read that, then add the networked + comm advance stuff.
And when you consider the record a show from anywhere feature, consider that although the Replay is now connected to the internet constantly, you still cannot set a recording from the web for the same day (that feature is just as it was before).
Series 2 is USB 1.x, but I'm not sure why you are so concerned about the transfer rate. If you are planning on sending lots of shows over the internet, the bottleneck is the speed of you upstream connection, which is typically far worse than the download speed.
If you really want the networked stuff, also consider looking in the underground forums here. I don't know that stuff as well, but I know you can buy a board to add ethernet to series I and run a program to access your TiVo from the web. Both TiVo and Replay can have drives added for more space. Any hack like that void your warranty though and you can't get your TiVo/Replay fixed through any official channels after that.
Posted by: c3
You don't need to be an AT&T cable customer to get AT&TiVo. Many people outside of the service areas have ordered them without any problem.
I pay about $14 for AT&T basic cable. Expanded basic is additional >$20, which is not worth it for me.
Posted by: sixt7gt350
I own both.
In a nutshell:
TiVo is MUCH better at recording what you want.
Replay is much better when it's time to sit down and watch.
There is no such thing as a To Do list on the Replay When looking at the schedule, a show that is planned to record has red dots on its slot. That's about as close as you get. It's easier to get at, but less informative than TiVo's To Do list.
Commercial Advance reliability is on par with that of VCR-based Commercial Advance. The technology used is the same. (I have had RCA and Panasonic VCRS with CA, expect ~85%) I'm satisfied with the quickskip and nnn-skip features, so I have not yet purchased a 4000 series unit. Commercial Advance and picture viewing are hardly worth the price of entry, to me. The networking is a beautiful thing for watching from any unit, but I'm waiting for the "hive mind" concept where they all work together to resolve conflicts and manage space.
Replay originated the concept of the "wishlist" with "Themes." TiVo was smart to adopt it. My wife goes on "Doris Day" kicks or "I Love Lucy" so the Replay will record anything on any channel that meets the criteria.
Replay hard drives can be upgraded. I'm not completely sure where the project stands for 4000-series units, but the older ones were a piece of cake.
It really does boil down to user preference, for the most part. Since this is the TiVo forum, you'll of course hear mostly pro-TiVo arguments. (You also might hear some very rabid pro-TiVo, anti-Replay arguments.) TiVo has the lion's share of the market, so that may sway your opinion one way or the other.
Hope I've helped.
Posted by: sixt7gt350
quote:
Originally posted by bsoft
If you don't mind wrangling with your TV than the Replay is not a bad device. If you're like me and you don't want to think about TV, Replay is a poor choice. Replay makes you micro-manage your TV experience; you have to make sure that you don't accidentaly schedule a conflict, you have to delete programs, etc. If you don't manage your Replay the gears break down and everything stops working.
I'm going to have to disagree on his statement.
Replay deletes the oldest episode of a show (channel) when a new episode records. (Based on how many episodes you have asked it to keep on hand.)
TiVo deletes in the order it recorded, regardless of which show, unless you give it other instructions. (Worthless suggestions, notwithstanding.)
There are some shows I watch by myself, but others that my wife and I try to find the time to watch together. I'm much happier with the way Replay manages space. If I haven't had a chance to watch an episode, I can preserve it any time before the next episode airs. With TiVo, I have to know ALL the shows that will be recording and make sure to "save until I delete" a show that I didn't watch right away.
Many have called Replay's guaranteed and non-guaranteed shows confusing, but it's pretty simple for me. I guarantee the shows I want to see and non-guarantee the shows I'd like to see. (Themes and syndicated re-runs usually get the non-guarantee.)
Replay does not let you "schedule" a conflict. It lets you know immediately if there is a conflict when you try to schedule. What is doesn't do is let you know when something becomes a conflict after it's already scheduled. TiVo's "priorities" come in mighty handy for this situation. TiVo also lets you temporarily suspend recording for one episode to manage a conflict, whereas Replay doesn't.
Posted by: DrStrange
quote:
Originally posted by sixt7gt350
Replay deletes the oldest episode of a show (channel) when a new episode records. (Based on how many episodes you have asked it to keep on hand.)
TiVo deletes in the order it recorded, regardless of which show, unless you give it other instructions. (Worthless suggestions, notwithstanding.)
That still agrees with what he said. By deleting shows in the order they were recorded, it deletes the oldest shows on the whole disk first. It's been my experience that if a show manages to be the oldest show, unwatched when the disk is full, it wasn't something I'll miss and should be the first to go once something has to.
quote:
There are some shows I watch by myself, but others that my wife and I try to find the time to watch together. I'm much happier with the way Replay manages space. If I haven't had a chance to watch an episode, I can preserve it any time before the next episode airs.
So? With Tivo you can preserve it anytime before the disk fills and the show trickles all the way down to the bottom of the "Now Playing" list. That's usually a much much longer time. The oldest shows on two of my Tivos date back to mid and early February.
quote:
With TiVo, I have to know ALL the shows that will be recording and make sure to "save until I delete" a show that I didn't watch right away.
No you don't. As long as you watch and delete enough of something, anything to keep the disk from getting full you don't have to SUID anything. This leaves you free to pick and choose the best things in "Now Playing" to watch first. Replay OTOH starts deleting things when a shows channel is full, whether the whole disk is full or not. This means you have to frequently oversize channels (which further limits the already limited number of them you can "guarantee") and instead of having to ask "is the disk getting full?" and being able to get rid of any shows you choose to free up room if you have to or just protect the shows you want that are near the bottom of the list, you have to ask "is this channel full, and is it about to get a new show, and is this channel full and is it about to get a new show, and is this channel full"... etc and for any channel for which the answer is "yes" you have to watch/delete those shows, or you have to protect the existing shows in all those channels. Having to go to that effort even when there's still empty space on the disk is wasteful.
quote:
Many have called Replay's guaranteed and non-guaranteed shows confusing, but it's pretty simple for me. I guarantee the shows I want to see and non-guarantee the shows I'd like to see.
If it works for you good. It doesn't work for me for several reasons:
1. You can't "guarantee" more hours than you have disk space. In my case that meant running out of guaranteeable space before I was done with the shows I wanted to guarantee.
2. Of course I wanted to guarantee everything because if you don't guarantee a show ReplayTV doesn't conflict check it with anything so once you're forced to start using non-guaranteed shows you have no idea which things you're wasting your time scheduling and which things will be trumping other non-guaranteed shows you'd rather see.
3. I'm not lucky enough to have a binary "everything above this I must see, everything below this I don't care about" cutoff point, and even if I did it wouldn't be where Replay forces me to have it (at it's "guaranteed" space limit). For me, and I suspect for most people. the question is "if this show is on opposite this show, which one would I want recorded?" Replay doesn't let you specify an answer to that question. It doesn't even tell you when something is on opposite a non-guaranteed show, much less let you choose what to do about it, and while guaranteed shows have higher priority than non-guaranteed, all guaranteed shows have the same priority as each other so you can't make one more important than another. If two guaranteed shows conflict, you get whichever one Replay decides to give you. So guaranteed isn't even suitable for shows I must see, because it doesn't let me specify which of those shows I must see the most. Tivos season pass manager does.
quote:
Replay does not let you "schedule" a conflict. It lets you know immediately if there is a conflict when you try to schedule.
That's new with the 4000, and the only improvement to the 4000s scheduling engine. It's also the way Tivo used to work until 2.0 came out a year ago. Now Tivo allows you to schedule season passes that conflict if you want, but it tells you what the conflicts are for every show you request, not just a certain class of them so you know what you're getting into. Then the SPM lets you fine-tune every shows priority so you can choose which shows should be above it and which below. Replay offers you two choices: Guaranteed which won't let you set conflicting shows at all, and non-guaranteed (and themes) which won't check for or warn you what the conflicts are. Those are poor choices.
There are some for whom Replays scheduling system may be good enough especially if you really have to have broadband support or commercial skip, but I've never seen any valid argument that it's better than Tivo. (KenLs slams in the Replay forum don't count since he's never actually backed them up with examples, and I've seen him slam Tivo for alleged behavor that actually better describes Replay.)
Posted by: Rob Helmerichs
Another minor issue dealing with usability is the remote. A friend of mine has both TiVo and Replay, and since he got his Replay 4000 a few months ago, he has used that one as his primary machine. Despite daily use for several months, however, watching him deal with the remote is downright comical; he's always fumbling for buttons, having to take his eyes off the screen to stare at the large grid of identical tiny buttons, and hitting the wrong one. With TiVo's peanut, it very quickly becomes very intuitive.
And in terms of UI, there's just no comparison.
Commercial skip used to work most of the time, and was pretty cool, but he switched from cable to DirecTV this week, and now commercial skip doesn't work at all. Very odd!
What he really likes about Replay is the video extraction; he's a demon for burning shows to CD and DVD.
Posted by: cwoody222
quote:
Originally posted by bsoft
"And you can setup which shows to record from the Internet." - It's a nice feature, but once the novelty wears off it really isn't that useful. If you are really inclied to do so you can hook your TiVo to your computer with the serial cable and run TiVoWeb (this requires some "hacking", however).
My MyReplayTV.com has not worked properly in over a week. This isn't the first time, either.
Tech support for MyReplayTV.com is almost non-existant.
Nice feature...when it works. And if it doesn't...you're at their mercy.
Posted by: cwoody222
quote:
Originally posted by bsoft
If you have AT&T Cable also consider an AT&Tivo (as they've been dubbed on this board). It's a fully-featured Series 2 but with 40 hours of space (instead of 60) and a price of $300 (instead of $400).
AT&T TiVo's work with ANY cable system. Digital and analog and even non-AT&T cable.
It's just got the AT&T logo on the front...other than that, it's just a reguar Series2 box.
Posted by: cwoody222
quote:
Originally posted by sixt7gt350
I'm going to have to disagree on his statement.
Replay deletes the oldest episode of a show (channel) when a new episode records. (Based on how many episodes you have asked it to keep on hand.)
TiVo deletes in the order it recorded, regardless of which show, unless you give it other instructions. (Worthless suggestions, notwithstanding.)
<snip>
With TiVo, I have to know ALL the shows that will be recording and make sure to "save until I delete" a show that I didn't watch right away.
Two points here. Sure, Replay deletes the oldest show when a new episode airs. But, it doesn't tell you when it plans to record a new episode.
Case in point: Replay records Titus for me on Wed. night. I have it set to record one episode only. FOX decides to show a "special" (rerun) episode on Friday. WITHOUT WARNING, Replay deletes my unwatched Wed. episode and replaces it with Friday's rerun.
Thanks Replay.
TiVo has a ToDo List where I could see Friday's episode.
TiVo lets me ignore reruns so it wouldn't have been an issue.
TiVo would not have deleted an episode unless there was absolute NO space left on the machine.
Sure...Replay lets me tell it to only record on Wednesday's if I want but then what happens when Titus changes days permanently? I have to know that and change the setup...exactly why I didn't buy a PVR!
As for as your second statement that TiVo makes you have to know all upcoming recordings...ok, fine. But it gives you an extremely easy to use feature called the ToDo List for this. Replay has no such thing.
Plus, you DO know you can set TiVo shows to "Save Until I Delete" AT THE TIME OF SETUP, right? Then you don't have to do a thing later.
Posted by: Raspewtin
b/c replaytv 4000 is 2nd generation software the software really isn't that far behind tivo as we like to think. i love my tivo and you'll have to pry it from my cold dead hands, but lets' face it, it's totally absurd to think the tivo series 2 is better than the 4000 which has 480p total commerial skip, ethernet (this isassuming you have a a tv which has 480p, ethernet in your house, etc))
actually the two products are trying to hit 2 totally different markets. tivo is trying to make the product cheaper and cheaper, while replay is going the other direction. both are valued approaches
also if the companies go under, getting support for an ethernet product will be easier than a dialup product i imagine, plus all the nifty features of an ethernet product.
if you have in home ethernet, of course the best would be a tivo with real ethernet features, show sharing, etc. that product doesn't exist in the market yet though :( i think you'd making a big mistake not getting the replaytv4000 think how cool it would be to share shows with your computer, skip commercials, watch all television in commercial skip, digital audio, progressive scan out of your PVR. if you aren't money sensitive you should get it IMO, i have played with it and it's a fabulous product. i have to wait to wire my house with ethernet before i can get one :(
and Tivo should make a competeing product, b/c really heaven would be such a product with the awesome Tivo interface/remote. Nothing beats the Tivo Peanut Remote. Really the tivo remote is practically an engineering miracle IMO :)
disclaimer: i have frequently been wrong and could be again :)
Posted by: arjay
There's nothing like another skirmish in the never ending battle between ReplayTV and TiVo! Even though the war is largely over the old panache flares up anew.
TiVo's service is generally better at what it does than ReplayTV's service. Of course there's all those nitpicky points to argue about and ReplayTV wins a few of them.
I used to like ReplayTV better than TiVo. I still like its style of presentation better. But after following and getting involved in countless arguments I've come to realize that neither of them provides what I want in a DVR. Both are far too automated for me and are designed for users who set up heavy recording schedules. TiVo is especially useful for that purpose while ReplayTV is perhaps better for the casual user.
The arguments have been interesting though. There even was a discussion in which I got into a major difference of opinion with a board oldtimer on the significance of minute differences between ReplayTV's and TiVo's (slightly underground!) 30 second QS. Whew!
It's dumb to get a machine with a service like TiVo's (or ReplayTV's) and not use it to its capabilities. I've traded off my TiVo w/lifetime service and eventually got an unsubbed TiVo (no service) which is great for casual recording. Current new models of TiVo no longer offer recording capabilities without TiVo's service. TiVo Inc. has learned it's not cost effective to promote its service by permitting unsubbed TiVo's to record.
ReplayTV machines remain capable of recording by manually set timers if disconnected from ReplayTV's service. Of course the price of its service is already part of ReplayTV's sales price.
When used without service both ReplayTV and TiVo don't need to be connected to a phoneline (or internet) except once in a while to reset their clocks. My TiVo is about a minute off now--it hasn't made a phone call in over six months!
Posted by: DrStrange
quote:
Originally posted by Raspewtin
b/c replaytv 4000 is 2nd generation software the software really isn't that far behind tivo as we like to think. i love my tivo and you'll have to pry it from my cold dead hands, but lets' face it, it's totally absurd to think the tivo series 2 is better than the 4000
It depends on what you want. If you think being able to skip commercials and send shows to your friends is a PVRs primary job, with reliable and manageable recording a secondary concern, the 4000 is better. If you're more interested in eliminating the VCR-like hassles of having to pay attention to network schedule changes and adjusting the PVRs recordings to accomodate them, then the Series 2 (or even the series 1) is better.
quote:
actually the two products are trying to hit 2 totally different markets. tivo is trying to make the product cheaper and cheaper...
...and easier to use...
quote:
while replay is going the other direction. both are valued approaches
That's a more accurate description. Neither is universally "better", each is better at certain things. We here in the Tivo forum tend to think that being good at the job that "PVR" actually stands for is the most important, but others view commercial skip, show sharing, and other bells and whistles not related to recording to be a bigger selling point.
quote:
also if the companies go under, getting support for an ethernet product will be easier than a dialup product i imagine, plus all the nifty features of an ethernet product.
Finding support for a niche PVR, ethernet or not, will likely be harder than finding support for a PVR with a larger market. And there aren't very many broadband features on the 4000 now. Show sharing, intra-house shared access to multiple 4000s are about it I think. Tivo already has a larger hacker base than Replay due in large part to Tivos use of Linux, and there are options for direct network connections, even on the Series 1s.
quote:
I think you'd making a big mistake not getting the replaytv4000 think how cool it would be to share shows with your computer, skip commercials, watch all television in commercial skip, digital audio, progressive scan out of your PVR.
Or think about how cool it would be to know in advance what your PVR will record and what it will miss and be able to control it, tweak it, filter out reruns, not miss shows you were expecting it to record, not be hampered by artificial space limitations, etc. I happen to think that's much cooler, even before I got DirecTivos that could also record two things at once and preserve digital picture and sound.
Posted by: stripes
There are very few people that own both, and they are really the ones that can tell you the difference, but...
When I looked at both the Replay could do some really cool thing with the shows it manages to record for you, and the TiVo does a much better job of finding the shows you want and recording them.
There are basically three features on the TiVo that Replay doesn't have that pretty much make the TiVo way more useful to me (other people may not need these features though):
* TiVo's TODO list lets me see what it thinks it is going to record, and allows me to cancel shows (or add padding) before they are recorded. I don't think replay does this at all.
* TiVo's "history" list lets me see what shows I asked TiVo for that it can't/won't get (for example a show that was recorded in the last 28 days...or a important show on at the same time as a more important show). As far as I know Replay doesn't do this either.
* TiVo's session pass priority manager lets me order each show so the TiVo knows that first-run Buffy is the most important thing ever, but first-run West Wing is more important then other stuff, and that Batman Beyond is something I want recorded...as long as something else isn't on. Replay has a faint shadow of this, it lets you say some shows are worthless and others are really important, but there are no shades in between, if two important shows conflict it can't do "the right thing" all by itself because there is no way for it to know if Buffy is more important then West Wing.
Those three things probably are not very hard to add to the Replay, which leaves me baffled as to why they did a lot of harder more risky things and left these out.
All the other pros and cons are pretty small. Some of them TiVo wins, many Replay wins, some vary from person to person.
For example Reply lets you say "I want Buffy recorded from that channel on Tuesdays", TiVo lets you say "I want new episodes of Buffy recorded on that channel". With the TiVo you don't get old episodes (unless UPN gives bad guide data), with Replay you are immune to that kind of bad guide data but you get Tuesday reruns and if they schedule a new airing for Thursday you miss it. Of corse both can be set up to get "All Buffy from that channel", or even "all Buffy wherever it is" (at least I expect Replay can, I know TiVo can). Which way is better? Personal preference, for most shows I like the TiVo way better, but for a few shows on stations that don't have good guide data I would rather have the Replay way.
TiVo can be set to record "stuff you might like" is nothing else is on, and there is free space (a show you asked for, even if it is months old will never be deleted in order to make room for a suggestion), about the only down side to these suggestions is if you were watching live tv and hadn't used the remote in hours it will pop up a box asking if it is Ok to change the channel. This irritates some people, but most people stop watching live TV not long after getting a TiVo or Replay, so I don't think it matters. Some people like these suggestions a lot and it is a modest plus for TiVo, some people get very little out of it (sometimes it records stuff I like, so it is a minor plus for me). Since you can turn it off it shouldn't be a down side.
The Replay4000 can send shows to other Replay4000s, it's really cool if you have more then one, if you are sending to a friend it takes a while so is not as exciting. It is a good thing, but for me not a killer thing. Plus it isn't useful unless the Replay records the show you want which the TiVo does a far better job at :-)
The replay does one of the lesser forms of HDTV, which is very nice if you have HDTV. Otherwise it is a pretty useless feature.
The way replay and TiVo manage space is different, and some people like Replay's way better. I happen to like TiVo's better, you can go into any show and tell TiVo how long it should keep it and it will either do it (maybe keeping other stuff for less time, telling you of corse), or tell you it can't. You can mark some things to never delete. You can also tell it not to have more then 1/2/3/4/5 of a show. So it works. Other people may be happier with Replay's -- however I would like to hear why.
Replay 4000's commercial skip sounds neat, but since it doesn't always work I'm not sure how useful it is. The normal Replay 30 second skip may appeal to some people, but I don't like it. I would rather see 1 second of each commercial, because sometimes I watch a few of them. People that really hate all the commercials would probably rather have the 30 second skip.
The DTiVo lets you record two things at once, so long as you give up the ability to record off of cable or antenna signals it totally rocks.
There are probably things both do that I have forgotten about, plus things the Replay does that I just don't know about (and I would like to hear about them).
Posted by: vanguard
I own neither (I just ordered a Tivo yesterday). One of the primary reasons I bought a tivo over the replay unit is the financials of the companies behind them. In paticular, SBLU has more than twice as much current liabilities than the do current assets. They'll be getting further into debt before things turn around.
In a nutshell, I'm not buying the stock of either company. However, I'm not even buying the product from replaytv. I'm concerned that their service will end too soon.
Posted by: vanguard
I just read that again. It sounds like I'm spreading FUD. That's not my goal, I'm just explaining the thought process I went though during the buying cycle.
Posted by: John494900
ReplayTV doesn't have suggestions. You may think it's a trivial feature, but it's not! It's an awesome thing to have a ton of suggestions on your TiVo and not worry if they're gonna ruin anything you've setup. Suggestions rule!
Posted by: Justin526
quote:
Originally posted by cwoody222
My MyReplayTV.com has not worked properly in over a week. This isn't the first time, either.
Tech support for MyReplayTV.com is almost non-existant.
Nice feature...when it works. And if it doesn't...you're at their mercy.
I've used myreplaytv.com about six times on four separate days in the past week or so and it has worked perfectly; not a single problem was encountered. I have honestly never had a problem with myreplaytv.com whatsoever. Sometimes it seems a bit slow to load, but otherwise nothing. It is a useful service, but it could be improved if you caould have it update your replay when you want it to, which with the broadband connectivity on the 4k units I'm sure they should be able to do somehow. Anyways - my point being - no problems here.
Posted by: arjay
quote:
Originally posted by stripes
There are basically three features on the TiVo that Replay doesn't have that pretty much make the TiVo way more useful....
* TiVo's TODO list
* TiVo's "history" list
* TiVo's session pass priority manager
Those three things probably are not very hard to add to the Replay....
My limited understanding of each DVR's logic (mostly gleaned from other posters here and at ReplayTV's forum) leads me to believe the features you mention are intrinsic in the design of TiVo's service.
Replay uses a totally different approach which is not compatible with the features you mention. They would probably have to totally redesign their basic program to enable similiar features.
Posted by: Otto
It boils down to fundamental differences in their scheduling mechanisms.
Replay takes a more channel based approach, where you setup channels that contain certain shows. This is fine from a user interface viewpoint, as it makes it easy to find what you want to watch. From a scheduling standpoint, however, it makes it difficult to know what, exactly, the unit will do. Guarenteed vs. non-guarenteed, for example, seems to be a pointless distinction to me. If I tell it to record, then it had better record or it should tell me why it won't. With Tivo, you always know what is going to record, and when you schedule something, it will warn you about conflicts and so forth.
Now Tivo isn't all perfect, but they've worked around certain bits where it won't warn you. Conflicting Season Passes will not warn you, but you still have control over which gets recorded via the Season Pass Manager.
In essence, a Season Pass is the equivalent of Replay's non-guarenteed recordings, with the added advantage of letting you decide priorities when there is a conflict. And it lets you see what Tivo will record via the ToDo mechanism, so you can make changes to what it will do on the fly. Replay doesn't seem to have any similar means of adjustment.
The mechanism to decide how many recordings of a show you want on Replay is functionally equivalent to the Tivo's Keep At Most mechanism, where you can say "only record 5 episodes, delete the oldest when a new one comes in". But with Tivo, you don't have to use this method, with Replay there's little alternative if you want "Guarenteed" recordings.
My major problem with Replay is the lack of explanations in the various mechanisms. What happens if I schedule two conflicting Guarenteed recordings? Can I actually do that? How about two conflicting non-guarenteed recordings? What if two recordings don't conflict now but do later when new guide data comes in? How do I choose which will record, in advance? The Tivo's scheduler seems to be more robust in solving quite common scheduling issues. If you record everything you watch like I do, Tivo's scheduling system makes more sense.
And don't disparage suggestions until you really try them. I find a lot of stuff on suggestions that's worth seeing. I cannot count the number of times I've been watching a recording, see a commercial for a show that looks good but has already aired, only to find the Tivo recorded it as a suggestion. It knows my preferences really well, but it takes quite a long time to learn that.
Posted by: DrStrange
quote:
Originally posted by stripes
[quote]Those three things probably are not very hard to add to the Replay, which leaves me baffled as to why they did a lot of harder more risky things and left these out.
Replay programmers have said several times that the features are not easily added to the Replays system as it's currently implemented. They would basically have to scrap the whole thing and start over. I seem to recall dropping of hints that Replay was looking into that, but if they were going to the 4000 would have been the time to do it, and they didn't. I also recall comments about the 3000s hardware being inadequate for the task, but again, that can't be entirely it since they didn't add it to the 4000 despite it's beefier RAM and CPU.
<OPINION type="theory" proof="" suit="asbestos">
I sometimes get the feeling that Replay is only willing to implement features just enough to be get them on the market and advertise them before the competition does, and are less concerned about a worthwhile or usable implementation. Case in point: Replay had themes before Tivo, but their implementation lacks the control Tivos does and the guide data they supply is leaner than Tivos making the searches weaker. They don't index data so the searches take longer. They can't filter text searches by category. The guide doesn't mark theme matches, so you don't know what it'll record. And by ReplayMikes own admission, themes aren't even usably deterministic. According to him they should be treated more like suggestions, not to be trusted, just to be enjoyed when they happen to produce something useful.
Replays literature mentioned none of this of course, only that you could find shows with your favorite actor or whatnot. Themes were implemented just enough to be able to make that claim (and let users foolishly assume the feature was reliable, controllable, etc), and not much further.
Ditto for priorities. Replays priorities let them suggest that you could "guarantee" important recordings. Of course "guaranteed" recordings aren't as guaranteed as an uninformed consumer might think it was and are in fact less guaranteed than any Tivo recording is, but it made for a feature mention that Tivo didn't appear to have. And it did offer some type of crude prioritizing, messy and handicapped though it was.
Tivo has since added those two features and done a much better job of it than Replay did. Though Replay has had Tivos implementation to study for over a year and has had considerably longer to see the advantages of (and hear user complaints about Replays lack of) to-do lists and such, Replay still hasn't added them, even on the 4000. It looks to me like Replay simply doesn't care how usable their boxes are, only how good they look in brochures.
Although Tivo has yet to add any web-control feature to compare it with, MyReplayTV also has a similar "just good enough to advertise" look. It won't conflict check anything, it's slow, it's unreliable for some people, it can't do same-day recording, it has even less guide data than the box does and it can't change channel settings. It's been over a year with no improvements, and even the internet-connected 4000 interacts with once/day the same way the dialup 3000s do. But it's enough to put "schedule recordings over the web!" in their comparison charts, so they don't seem interested in improving it. I don't know if Tivo has a comparable feature in the works (I hope so) but history suggests if/when they do it will be better than Replays, and Replay will respond not by improving MyReplayTV, but by adding more half-implemented new features they can beef up their comparison charts with while the weaknesses they've had since the 2000 series remain unchanged.
</OPINION>
This is just a theory I have and it may be wrong. But the idea that ReplayTV feature development decisions seem to be made for the benefit of their marketing department makes me wary of assuming that Replay will add or improve any feature no matter how obvious or advantageous it may be to an actual PVR user.
Posted by: DrStrange
quote:
Originally posted by Otto
In essence, a Season Pass is the equivalent of Replay's non-guarenteed recordings, with the added advantage of letting you decide priorities when there is a conflict.
No, Tivo SPs are more like Replay guaranteed recordings without the downside of blocking out space like Replay does and with the additional advantages of being able to schedule as many as you want and prioritize them, even if they conflict. ReplayTVs non-guaranteed recordings are more like low-priority Tivo SPs in which you close your eyes and ignore Tivos warnings about conflicts, and hope you get what you want. Also SPs have the advantage of not forcing you to specify an artifical time/episode# limit beyond which shows will be deleted.
Actually Tivo SPs aren't anything like anything Replay has. :)
quote:
My major problem with Replay is the lack of explanations in the various mechanisms.
There are plenty of explanations. Most of them are just "you can't do that". :)
1. What happens if I schedule two conflicting Guarenteed recordings?
If they conflict at the time you schedule them, the 3000s will just tell you to bugger off. If you want the new recording you have to manually get rid of the existing guaranteed (by either deleting or non-guaranteeing it) then re-request the second one. The 4000s are a little better. They ask you which you want the way Tivo used to do way back in 1.3, before the SPM introduced true priorities.
2. How about two conflicting non-guarenteed recordings?
That you can do. Replay will accept them, because it won't even bother checking if anything conflicts with them. If you want to know about conflicts involving non-guaranteed shows, you have to bust out a TV guide or browse Replays grid and look for them yourself.
3. What if two recordings don't conflict now but do later when new guide data comes in?
Replay doesn't bother looking for those in advance. Again, it's up to you to wander through the guide and look for dots on shows with overlapping times. Unless themes are involved. Then I don't know what you do since those aren't marked at all.
4. How do I choose which will record, in advance?
You don't, much. All guaranteed show channels beat all non-guaranteed, but all guaranteed show channels are equal to each other and all non-guaranteed are equal to each other. Within those two groups conflicts are decided by such things as broadcast channel number, which show started first, and other things you have no control over.
Posted by: holyunion
Hi everyone
Thank you very much for your answers. While I'm a geek, my wife isn't. I have a baby and she loves pictures, so I thought having the slideshow feature would be great for her.
In the end, if I were single, I'd get the Replay. It's more me. However, with a wife who's non technical, the tivo sounds better for OUR needs.
And I hope that the dream of this feature and mp3 playbag will come someday on the Tivo.
I think I'm going to get a Tivo. My wife will enjoy it better, and she watches more TV than me.
Thanks everyone.
dp
Posted by: pv
Thanks as usual to DrStrange for explaining things so well. I was under the impression that replay's scheduling system was much improved with the 4000. That appears not to be the case.
Knowing what will record is the whole shooting match. Replay can have every feature on the planet (oh wait, it does!), but if it can't get scheduling right, what's the point? I really want them to succeed (if only as lawsuit chaff), but they're really shooting themselves in the foot not paying attention to how scheduling is implemented. These days, there's so much information available in a five second google search that "checklist comparison shopping" is dead. PV
Posted by: Cornflakeguy
I don't understand why people cite "conflict resolution" as a reason to have a Tivo.
You are recording the TV shows, don't YOU the user know what time the shows come on?
Wish lists are worthless, suggestions are even more worthless, I have them turned off. Thumbs up and thumbs down indeed.
Can I thumb down Oscars and Francis Ford Coppola?
CFG!
Posted by: DrStrange
quote:
Originally posted by Cornflakeguy
You are recording the TV shows, don't YOU the user know what time the shows come on?
No. I search for them by name. I know the days for a few shows, but I don't even know the times for most of those. And even if I wanted to keep a mental spreadsheet of when everything I watch is normally on to compare against every new show I schedule, I don't want to have to pay attention to the networks weekly tweaks.
If you enjoy studying TV guide every week and committing both permanent and temporary schedule data to memory and spending some block of time every week making adjustments to your PVRs schedule to compensate, or you just don't care if it occasionally records the wrong thing, go nuts. Buy a 4000, enjoy the commercial skip and show sharing. Me, I'd rather spend TV time watching it, not managing it.
Posted by: aciurczak
You're kidding, right? You really know when all the shows you want to record are on? We have 40 someodd SP's and wishlists on one tivo, and 60+ on the other. There have to be hundreds of episodes each week that aren't recorded due to conflicts, max number of episodes reached, reruns, whatever. There is now way in he** that we know which shows will conflict in advance, unless we use the recording history to look forward (which we do, about once/week, just to make sure that things look about right).
Posted by: stripes
quote:
You are recording the TV shows, don't YOU the user know what time the shows come on?
Nope, for the important shows I know the day...except when they are on a special day; I know how long they are...except when they are on at a special time. For a few of the shows that I use to watch before TiVo, shows that have not changed day or time I do know when they are on...except for the ones that have moved without me noticing.
Do the special times and days happen a lot? Not really, but it does happen.
Of corse that is just when they air, I don't know if they are new episodes or not, and the TiVo normally does. So frequently it can schedule a show I don't normally watch (for example I can see Undeclared whenever whatever it runs against that I normally watch is a repeat).
Does this happen? Yeah you betcha. A lot. Sometimes I use to miss several episodes of things before I realised that they were on again. NYPD in particular since they frequently start mid-seassion. I missed half a seassion once because of that. Even more offen rerun is schedules and I would rather see some show I like less then the normal show, except the other show is an episode I havn't seen while the "normal" show I have seen at least recently.
quote:
Wish lists are worthless, suggestions are even more worthless, I have them turned off. Thumbs up and thumbs down indeed.
Wish lists are worthless? You don't have any movies you might like to see on HBO that are not currently scheduled? No directors you love? No actor you would like to see in "anything"? Maybe not, but some people do, so if you don't well that's ok.
Suggestions work better for some people then others. I have them on since sometimes they find me shows I end up liking. Northern Exposure for example (now I have a SP), also "the show about a show about sports that isn't about sports at all" (had a SP for a while, saw the whole run, no more SP), and a few others.
For you maybe you like thinking about the time stuff is on, but I find it a bother. I don't care to know, and more over I find it way simpler not to know.
Posted by: DominikHasek
Its not better - its a different product.
Replay has a bunch of gee whiz features that appeal to some, but not all people. My parents (who probably represent 90% of the market TiVo is going after) have one TiVo and could care less about networking, sharing programs, or all the other high end features that differentiate Reply 4000 from TiVo. They just want to record shows, use wishlists, and the other core features that TiVo does very well. What they pay for the service they feel is money well spent. There is no way they would pay extra for a Replay 4000.
Some people like the additional capabilities of the Replay 4000, want them right now, and will pay whatever it takes get them. I wouldn't try to convince them that TiVo is superior, because it isn't trying to be. TiVo is a mass market device, Replay 4000 is a niche device for a small set of people. Each is priced accordingly and you get the features you are willing to pay for. No one loses.
Posted by: stripes
quote:
Originally posted by arjay [...TODO/Histore/SPM...]
My limited understanding of each DVR's logic (mostly gleaned from other posters here and at ReplayTV's forum) leads me to believe the features you mention are intrinsic in the design of TiVo's service.
I don't imagine how you could design a PVR and not have a "TODO" list (and "history" for the same reason), if for no other reason then to let the programmers designing the stupid thing to test a design on a week or two of schedule without waiting a week or two. Now maybe Replay isn't set up for the direct maipulation that would let you change the outcome, but...I really think adding something like a SPM would have been a better use of time then anything they did with the Replay 4000. For me. For other people that may not be the right trade off (and they will buy a Replay while I will continue buying theings that can schedule as well as a TiVo...currently that is just TiVo).
quote:
Replay uses a totally different approach which is not compatible with the features you mention. They would probably have to totally redesign their basic program to enable similiar features.
Like I said I don't see how having it tell you what it is going to do, or show you what it did can possiably be something it is incapable of.
I do see how it might not be able to let you change it...but I claim that would be far far far more important then, oh, a comercial skip that works "most of the time"....at least to me.
Now I'm not saying people are wrong for deciding a Replay is better for them...but I guess I'm saying Replay is wrong for leaving out those three features, even if they would have had to leave something else out.
Posted by: DrStrange
quote:
Originally posted by stripes
Like I said I don't see how having it tell you what it is going to do, or show you what it did can possiably be something it is incapable of.
Replay users have given this same "how hard can it be?" argument numerous times in their pleas to have it added (sometimes posting psuedocode snippets and asking for the job :)), and Replay programmers have all repeated that it isn't as easy to add to Replays scheduling engine as everybody thinks, or they'd have done it by now. I can't quite get my mind around how they managed not to see the merits of at least a to-do list from day one myself but ReplaySomebody once pointed out that at the time PVRs were an unblazed trail, and everybody was guessing at what would be more important. Replay opted for feature quantity over quality, with crudely implemented features like themes and "guaranteed"/non-guaranteed recordings, Tivo chose fewer features in favor of easier to manage recording. And so it seems to continue years later, Tivo only implementing features they can make easy to use and control, Replay adding whatever flashy sounding widgets they can think of as fast as they can.
Posted by: Axiom
quote:
Originally posted by Cornflakeguy
I don't understand why people cite "conflict resolution" as a reason to have a Tivo.
Maybe because having a prioritized list of the shows you'd like to record is infinitely better and far more flexible than tagging a show "guaranteed" or not.
Posted by: Otto
quote:
Originally posted by Cornflakeguy
You are recording the TV shows, don't YOU the user know what time the shows come on?
Of course not. Why the heck would I care when something airs? I set it up to record shows, not times.
quote:
Wish lists are worthless, suggestions are even more worthless, I have them turned off. Thumbs up and thumbs down indeed.
Wish lists are awesome. I have several movies in there I want to see, and when they come on, it will record them. I do this all the time, even for movies in theaters. When they do finally show up on HBO, I'll see them. Nice, I think. There's other uses.
Suggestions rule too. I'm not watching LiveTV most of the time, so if the Tivo finds something I might like, then by all means, it should record it for me. It's not like the space the suggestion takes up is full of anything else.
Posted by: stripes
quote:
Replay users have given this same "how hard can it be?" argument numerous times in their pleas to have it added (sometimes posting psuedocode snippets and asking for the job ), and Replay programmers have all repeated that it isn't as easy to add to Replays scheduling engine as everybody thinks,
Well on the flip side then if there is no internal equivolent of TODO and History (even if accessable to the debugger), then I don't see how anyone could actually trust the Replay to record stuff. If the programmers wrote the code blind, then there are going to be more then the usual number of bugs...and even the usual number of bugs in this industry is frighteningly high!
Posted by: BrettStah
Once an hour the Replays run a little routine to see if there is something to record in the next hour. At least that's my understanding, based on what I've read in the ReplayTV forum...
Posted by: DrStrange
quote:
Originally posted by stripes
Well on the flip side then if there is no internal equivolent of TODO and History (even if accessable to the debugger), then I don't see how anyone could actually trust the Replay to record stuff.
For themes that's close to exactly correct (except that the information is available to a debugger, but nothing else). From JustMike (formerly ReplayMike) here:
quote:
As I posted recently in another thread, the algorithm applied uses information which is simply not user-visible. As a developer, I could predict with 100% accuracy what the algorithm will do, if I used development tools to browse in-memory structures and such. As a user, you just can't do it. Themes are roughly slightly more predictable than a TiVo suggestion, in my experience. [...] That makes sense, since they were designed for similar purposes -- to keep a supply of programming that is interesting to you on the box for your enjoyment, but not to record anything specific.
So Replays scheduling of themes is borderline random, and therefore not to-dolistable.
The rules for non-guaranteed show channels themselves are deterministic AFAIK, but elsewhere in that thread Mike says that guaranteed themes and even non-guaranteed themes can trump them depending on what the themes quasi-random selection process does. It's further complicated by the fact that a theme full of shows all less than 24 hours old will prevent a new show for that theme from being recorded at all. If that happens another show may end up being recorded instead. But Replay can't know in advance what the contents of the channel will be when the show comes on. Since one can't know what/when a theme will record until the last minute and how conflicts involving them turn out can affect overlap with other theme or NG show channels, it all can theoretically becomes an unpredictable crapshoot. Since IMO a to-do list you can't trust is almost worse than none at all, it's not worth even trying to predict NG show channel outcomes.
I don't think guaranteed show channels suffer from that same issue so I don't know why they can't even do it for those. I think I used to have a theory (a technical one, not the marketing one I went on about earlier), but I seem to have forgotten it.
Posted by: arjay
If a ReplayTV cost $300. I'd get one and ignore everything except the EPG. Oops, oh wait, I don't have broadband so I wouldn't get an EPG!
But a DVR for $300. or less without "service" is what I want. Include a VCR type timer for recording. Include an easy to read EPG from the program provider from which I can initiate recordings and I've got more than I need.
Dishplayer and the 501 both provide what I want. So would UTV except for its required monthly service fee.
Question, if anyone would care to answer? Isn't ReplayTV's EPG very similiar to DirecTV's standard grid EPG? From what I've seen they appear similiar except for the color schemes. I don't get DirecTV so I've seen only screenshots of its EPG.
I'm sorry for not appreciating the TiVo paradigm. I understand most posters here think its the greatest thing since sliced bread.
To me its a high tech marketing concept providing a solution in search of a problem. It makes a simple enjoyable activity like watching TV part of a computer program and pitches the idea of a "new, improved, way" of watching TV. But over half the "new, improved, way" of watching TV is available from any DVR without a service. The other part (timeshifting most everything) I don't want at all.
TiVo will continue to increase its sales of DVR's. There will be competition. In these times competition will tend to offer more and more features for additional fees.
That's why I'm enthused and excited about the Dish 501 which offers precisely what I want for the right price! Even though its not "politically correct".
Posted by: Philosofy
Hey arjay, what's up with your post count? I could have sworn you had a couple hundred posts.
Posted by: stripes
quote:
Originally posted by arjay
I'm sorry for not appreciating the TiVo paradigm. I understand most posters here think its the greatest thing since sliced bread.
If you don't like it that's fine, you don't need to apologise. You will continue to baffle some of us for whom the "TiVo paradigm" really is the best thing since sliced bread...and we don't understand at all what you want from a PVR if you don't care to timeshift or have the PVR handle schedule changes for you.
quote:
To me its a high tech marketing concept providing a solution in search of a problem. It makes a simple enjoyable activity like watching TV part of a computer program and pitches the idea of a "new, improved, way" of watching TV. But over half the "new, improved, way" of watching TV is available from any DVR without a service. The other part (timeshifting most everything) I don't want at all.
For me it does solve a lot of problems.
Saturday I wend to a firend's house for a BBQ, it ran late and I didn't have any little nagging voice say "Sure this is fun...but you are missing Six Feet Under and a bunch of other good TV".
As my prior post said I no longer miss NYPD Blue even though they still have a odd schedule for when they air new episodes.
For me a lot of what is on TV isn't really worth watching, so timeshifting is good for me. If for you whenever you sit down there is stuff on you like, well great, you don't need timeshifting. Cool.
quote:
That's why I'm enthused and excited about the Dish 501 which offers precisely what I want for the right price! Even though its not "politically correct".
I'm glad you found what you want...but it sure ain't what I want. I also think it isn't what a lot of other people want either, but sooner or later the market will end up deciding that one. (or you could try running a poll, but you have to be careful about how you word it, and who gets to answer it!)
Posted by: sixt7gt350
How did I know that I'd make DrStrange's radar if I even dared to say I liked something, ANYTHING about Replay better?????.........
Anyway, if you read both of my posts, you'll see that I wholeheartedly agree that TiVo does a MUCH better job of getting shows recorded. Priorities and suspending recording for a single episode are the biggest factors, in my book. Replay conflict management sucks. For the shows I REALLY want to see, the To Do List wouldn't tell me something I didn't already know.
The disagreement with bsoft was over Replay "breaking gears" and not working if you don't micro-manage the recorded shows. My wife has an "Everybody Loves Raymond" guaranteed channel that records original airings. I also have a non-guaranteed that picks up old ones on any day at any time. I did the same with Voyager before it finished its run. I've never had a problem with it putting a syndicated episode in the guaranteed channel. I use the "Final Frontier" zone to pick up any and all Star Trek shows. I do have a beef with Enterprise not being in the "Final Frontier" zone, but since it's still (partly) new episodes, I have it by itself as a guaranteed. TiVo's "first run only" is a great feature, but as has already been said, Replay's guide data is so woefully incomplete it probably would screw up anyway if it had such a feature. For me, catching up on syndicated repeats with a non-guaranteed channel works out best. As space allows, Replay fills up with episodes I may or may not have seen.
As I said, it boils down to personal preference, for the most part. Maybe I don't watch enough TV to have problems with Replay's space management.
I've tried some of TiVo's suggestions. Like I said, "worthless." I have to wonder if my kids are pressing the thumbs up and thumbs down randomly when I'm not home. Themes and zones work out better for me than TiVo's suggestions. TiVo's wishlist works pretty much the same as a Replay theme, but better because of more complete guide data. The recording history is also not of much use to me. Almost everything in there I already knew would be there. (Oh, thanks for letting me know that you didn't record the second, third......fourteenth, fifteenth and sixteenth airing of Steel Magnolias in the last month. I wish you wouldn't have done so in the first place! Oops, maybe that was a request from the wife.....)
I don't really think making everything "SUID" would work either, as was suggested. I'd run out of space in a big hurry. Maybe one of them will come out with an "okay to delete if I've already watched it" choice. (TiVo has done a better job of learning from Replay than Replay has done at learning from TiVo, so maybe Replay needs to do it first.) Replacing the oldest episode of a particular show with a newer one works best for me. I don't like scrolling all the way down through the entire "Now Playing" list to find an episode I haven't had the chance to watch yet. Maybe TiVo will make a software change that will allow the user to select between a time-based list and a show-based list, to account for different tastes.
All in all, maybe I haven't been able to give TiVo a fair chance at going head-to-head with the Replay. For us, the "must-see" shows are on the networks. (CSI, Alias, Dark Angel, Everybody Loves Raymond, Enterprise, The Practice, ER, etc.) TiVo fires away on the satellite with its two tuners picking up movies and a few things on Comedy Central. If you're wondering why I don't get locals on the satellite, I don't live in an area that is allowed to subscribe to locals, even though I'm using an antenna to get them!!! (Read my sig to understand why I haven't "moved" a few miles.) I'd love to be able to use both units to record from both networks and pay channels. I'd probably never have a conflict again.
Posted by: arjay
quote:
Originally posted by Philosofy
Hey arjay, what's up with your post count?
I took a break for awhile and had to reregister when TiVo Forum changed board providers. For my total post count check my posts at the AVS Dishnetwork Forum.
Posted by: arjay
quote:
Originally posted by stripes
....we don't understand at all what you want from a PVR if you don't care to timeshift or have the PVR handle schedule changes for you.
The main feature I want in a DVR is the ability to record and review almost instantly the content of an ongoing program. It's so much easier and more flexible to record on a DVR than a VCR although a DVR doesn't replace a VCR or a recordable DVD.
I hope the market has room for everyone. There's a lot of competition out there including multimedia boxes (Moxie?) cable (eventually satellite?) VOD, several varieties of DVR's; even things like game toys and satellite radio compete for your time and dollars. Everyone is selling something.
"They say sing while you slave, but I just get bored."
Posted by: c3
quote:
Originally posted by arjay
I'm sorry for not appreciating the TiVo paradigm. I understand most posters here think its the greatest thing since sliced bread.
That depends on what kind of bread. :) To me, TiVo is the greatest thing since the invention of VCR. I don't have to deal with 3 VCR's and swapping tapes. I don't have to worry about Survivor changing its timeslot from Thursday to Wednesday and then back to Thursday. My biggest problem with TiVo is that I now have so many programs sitting on two upgraded TiVo's that I don't have time to watch them.
Posted by: aciurczak
I'd give up bread before Tivo.
Posted by: stripes
quote:
The main feature I want in a DVR is the ability to record and review almost instantly the content of an ongoing program. It's so much easier and more flexible to record on a DVR than a VCR although a DVR doesn't replace a VCR or a recordable DVD.
Do you just record "what's on now" and do trick play stuff, or do you like scheduling stuff like a VCR (Channel 7 from 9:00 to 10:00, Channel 4 from 10:00 to 11:00...)? Or do you like using an EPG, but see no need for the thing to follow shows (i.e. in TiVo speak all on shot recordings, no seassion passes)?
Posted by: jsmeeker
I won't even read the whole thread.. I'll just post.
Its all about the software. Both devices are made to record TV programs so you can watch them later. TiVo simply does this better. It handles things more seemlessly and with less user interaction than the Replay. TiVo seems to be more "set and forget" than Replay.
Most people don't have broadband and home networks. Lots of people in this group do, but its not representative of the general public. True, Replay have have some nice special features, like those you mentioned. But it's implementattion of *fundamental* function is inferiror to TiVo's.
Posted by: BrettStah
Based on previous posts by arjay, he changes channels with his satellite/cable box remote, and uses his PVR for trick-play purposes only.
Posted by: arjay
quote:
Originally posted by stripes
Do you just record "what's on now" and do trick play stuff, or do you like scheduling stuff?....do you like using an EPG?
I use the recording buffer a lot--doesn't even require setting it up. I enjoy using both a satellite guide (to get a lo-tech programming overview for the month) and the EPG.
I don't record a great deal on my two satellite DVR's; just conflicts and stuff worth saving to video. Up to three programs (two from satellite) can be watched at the same time on separate TV's in different rooms (or one program can be watched throughout the house.) All for a $5. 2nd receiver fee and no service fee(s)!
In addition to a Dishplayer and a 501 I have an unsubbed TiVo on which I record in a single daily scheduled recording through the line input everything sent to the main TV during evening hours. Sometimes it doesn't matter; other times such a recording is very useful.
Posted by: BrettStah
Arjay,
It is hard to understand why you wouldn't care to use the time-shifting functions of PVRs. Does it just go against your ingrained TV viewing habits?
What is the negative (or negatives) of having your favorite shows automatically recorded, and then letting you decide when to watch them?
Obviously if you want to watch them as they're airing you can still do so...
Honestly just curious... not trying to be confrontational! :)
Posted by: arjay
quote:
Originally posted by BrettStah
Arjay,
It is hard to understand....
Honestly just curious... not trying to be confrontational! :)
Brett, I've discussed my thoughts about TV viewing so much in past posts--I suppose they're no longer available on this new board server.
Suffice it to say I'm familiar with the capabilities of the TiVo service. I've covered it a fair amount in this thread. Let's let it be.
Just for the record it was BrettStah, in a thread at the ReplayTV Forum, who suggested setting up a daily long recording on TiVo when I mentioned using ReplayTV's disc sized recording buffer a lot. BTW, ReplayTV's buffer size appears to be more a default of its logic system than a feature.
Posted by: stripes
Well since arjay won't tell us I'm going to spin a theory. It may not cover arjay, but it does cover a class of people that would gain nothing from timeshifting.
Those would be people for whom during the hours they watch TV can always find something on that they enjoy just as much as things they enjoy the absolute most on TV. So if, for example, someone really liked watching salt water fish on the "screensaver channel" more then the rest of "that crap" on TV then there is no need to timeshift. They might want to have a 12 second skip back in case a fish did something unusally intresting. The same argument would apply if they loved music videos and at least one of VH1, MTV2, or Much Music was playing something they loved at any given moment.
Those people have no need of timeshifting because live TV always offers them the very best they could ever hope for.
I don't know how many people in the world that describes (or if arjay is one of those people!), but I do know there are a lot of people that doesn't describe. People that if they could only watch a little TV on any given day, but could pick any show would pick a show that isn't normally on on that day.
(there is also another class of people -- folks who don't like anything on TV at all, but I would be supprised if they wanted any PVR at all, but clearly if nothing is ever on that you want at all a PVR won't help you)
Posted by: BrettStah
quote:
Originally posted by arjay
Brett, I've discussed my thoughts about TV viewing so much in past posts--I suppose they're no longer available on this new board server.
Suffice it to say I'm familiar with the capabilities of the TiVo service. I've covered it a fair amount in this thread. Let's let it be.
Just for the record it was BrettStah, in a thread at the ReplayTV Forum, who suggested setting up a daily long recording on TiVo when I mentioned using ReplayTV's disc sized recording buffer a lot. BTW, ReplayTV's buffer size appears to be more a default of its logic system than a feature.
I do remember some of those threads well! :)
I just don't recall if you ever discussed exactly what about timeshifting with PVRs you dislike.
And I still think Tivo's implementation of a live tv buffer is superior (overall) to the Replay buffer! :)
Posted by: arjay
quote:
Originally posted by stripes
people have no need of timeshifting because live TV always offers them the very best they could ever hope for.
....People that if they could only watch a little TV on any given day, but could pick any show would pick a show that isn't normally on on that day.
Yikes, such an analysis.
Occasionally TV is excellent; more often it's OK.
I don't want to watch the best I could ever hope for all the time. Most times I just want to watch TV. I enjoyed ID4 last night instead of the Oscars.
Go with the flow! In a metaphysical sense there is a constant shortage of the very best. Welcome it when it comes along but don't expect it all the time.
Unless it's just one of those days I can always find something OK to watch (no worse than a Suggestion!) from well over a hundred satellite and OTA channels. Often the best programming available on a given day is as good (but different) as that available on another day.
If everything was the very best all the time we'd hardly appreciate it for what it was. We'd screw it up like this beautiful earth we live on.
There is truly a time for all things. I like to go with the flow instead of engineering the path of the flow.
But enough BS analysis!
Posted by: arjay
quote:
Originally posted by BrettStah
And I still think Tivo's implementation of a live tv buffer is superior (overall) to the Replay buffer! :)
Well it's a lot shorter! While I don't need a disc sized recording buffer I do like the 501's hour long one--TiVo's is at least half as good! ;)
There's a solid reason for my opinion. I'm always aware that TiVo's buffer is short--I can't just pause and forget something without thinking I'll lose it. An hour is just long enough not to think about it.
Posted by: mtchamp
I truly admire the posters who answer these Replay TV versus TiVo questions in expert detail. It's gets so tiresome to read someone wants a Replay TV and wants our blessing. This is a TiVo forum with a gazillion pro TiVo posts. What do you expect to learn you can't already learn by reading previous posts?
If you want the TiVo service (software), then buy a TiVo. If you want less than TiVo service, but like the Replay TV hardware and other extra features it provides, which most of us don't need or we would be throwing away our TiVos, then buy a Replay TV.
Posted by: Leon WIlkinson
quote:
Originally posted by holyunion
Hi everyone
And I hope that the dream of this feature and mp3 playbag will come someday on the Tivo.
I think I'm going to get a Tivo. My wife will enjoy it better, and she watches more TV than me.
Thanks everyone.
dp
I think I seen something on my TiVo about the series 2 :D, Which list both of those as possiblites in the future.
Posted by: BrettStah
arjay, eventually the hardware will be cheap enough for a simple VCR replacement product with a live buffer to be sold. They are out there now, I believe, but they are a lot more than $300.
Of course, not long ago you could effectively get a DirecTivo for free (after rebate). If you don't pay for the Tivo service, you can still use the buffers (that's one buffer per tuner). Even adding in the $249, you'd be below your $300 price point.
Your basic philosophy, if I understood it correctly, is that when you sit down to watch TV, you can usually find something to watch that's "good enough" to watch, and if you miss a better show, then that's life. I understand that well... that's basically how I watched TV before they invented Tivo! I'd channel surf around, find something "good enough", and except for a very small number of shows, I usually wouldn't remember to set a VCR to record something I'd really want to see. I'd try to remember to get home in time, etc., but often I'd forget to put the correct tape in, or forget to turn the VCR off for the timer to be able to kick in (who the heck came up with that, anyway?!?).
Now, when I turn on the TV, I don't channel surf. Instead, I scroll through the Now Playing list items. Do I want to watch a short comedy? Drama? Movie? Documentary? Then I pick a show that matches. I may really like NYPD Blue (I really do!), but not feel like watching it on Tuesday night at 8pm when it comes on (I think that's the time this season). Instead, I may watch Everybody Loves Raymond.
As soon as I realized that these things could automatically find all the shows I like to watch and have them available for me to watch them whenever I wanted to, I knew I had to have one.
You sound very similar to my grandfather in many ways... Phrases like "new-fangled" actually came out of his mouth. Anything "new" was automatically a "gimmick", "not needed", etc. Of course he would never actually have owned anything like a Tivo, or get satellite, etc., so I'm not saying you're that old-fashioned! :)
I also knew of a guy who, for the longest time (maybe to this day), refused to use a copy machine. His carbon paper worked just fine, thank you very much.
(And it's not an age thing... my other grandfather was really into VCR's. He had the old Beta models, probably a total of 10-12 VCRs total, with hundreds and hundreds of tapes He also bought a rear-projection TV (3 of them eventually) before anyone else I knew had one.)
Posted by: stripes
quote:
Originally posted by arjay
Yikes, such an analysis.
Well my last job was as a systems analyist, or something like that.
[...]
quote:
If everything was the very best all the time we'd hardly appreciate it for what it was. We'd screw it up like this beautiful earth we live on.
There is truly a time for all things. I like to go with the flow instead of engineering the path of the flow.
But enough BS analysis!
Hmmmm, maybe I'm just a gready TV *******, but I figure if they are out there spraying "the good stuff" down a few times a week and the "not as good stuff" the rest of the time I ought to slop up all the good stuff I can before I put up with the rest...
As for being unable to enjoy all the great stuff without experiancing the not so great...maybe. I spent 3 days with no water and 4 with no food once (well twice). Water never tasted so good as the 4th day. Food never so good as on day five. However I feel zero need to do it again just to taste the fine taste of "first water in days".
Now maybe you have to watch some dross in order to really enjoy the great stuff, but I think I'll go on skipping it...plus having food and water each day :-)
Posted by: arjay
Brett, you're pushing pretty hard and (willfully?) misinterpreting what I've said. Let's let it go.
I don't want a free TiVo. Dish's 501 has almost exactly the features I want without adding features I don't want.
BTW, my 501 cost $150 after trading back my b.o. 4700 to Dishnetwork.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stripes, don't watch dross at all! Just don't expect "Gone With the Wind" on every "Now Playing" list. Enjoy!
Posted by: BrettStah
I wan't trying to misinterpret anything that you said, actually. I honestly thought I was re-phrasing what you said. But if you want to let it go, it's now gone as far as I'm concerned! :)
Posted by: sixt7gt350
quote:
Originally posted by jsmeeker
I won't even read the whole thread.. I'll just post.
Its all about the software. Both devices are made to record TV programs so you can watch them later. TiVo simply does this better. It handles things more seemlessly and with less user interaction than the Replay. TiVo seems to be more "set and forget" than Replay.
Most people don't have broadband and home networks. Lots of people in this group do, but its not representative of the general public. True, Replay have have some nice special features, like those you mentioned. But it's implementattion of *fundamental* function is inferiror to TiVo's.
Opinion noted. There is another (smaller) camp out there with the opposite one. Everyone is entitled to choose his (her) favorite, hence, separate forums. If we didn't have separate forums, there would be non-stop, partisan, wise-cracking, hackle-raising, opinion-as-fact, blind-faith, mindlessly-loyal, truth-bending, my-PVR-can-beat-up-your-PVR, FUD-flinging comparisons with brief smatterings of personal attacks. Oh, wait. We already have that. Well, then, we'd have more of it....
Posted by: Lori
quote:
Originally posted by DrStrange
Replay users have given this same "how hard can it be?" argument numerous times in their pleas to have it added (sometimes posting psuedocode snippets and asking for the job :)), and Replay programmers have all repeated that it isn't as easy to add to Replays scheduling engine as everybody thinks, or they'd have done it by now. I can't quite get my mind around how they managed not to see the merits of at least a to-do list from day one myself but ReplaySomebody once pointed out that at the time PVRs were an unblazed trail, and everybody was guessing at what would be more important. Replay opted for feature quantity over quality, with crudely implemented features like themes and "guaranteed"/non-guaranteed recordings, Tivo chose fewer features in favor of easier to manage recording. And so it seems to continue years later, Tivo only implementing features they can make easy to use and control, Replay adding whatever flashy sounding widgets they can think of as fast as they can.
There's a lot of good info here about why Replay has no to-do-list and why it's harder than it looks on the surface. Most of the good info is toward the end of the thread...page 5 and 6 for me. I don't think that Replay has changed their recording paradigm such that this is no longer accurate.
You can also look here for the official Replay explanation on recording priorities. Makes my head spin.
Edit by Otto: Fixed Lori's links
Posted by: arjay
Lori,
I tried to check out your links. This here linked thread appears to have major problems. Makes my head spin.
Edit by Otto: Fixed the repeat of Lori's link.. ;)
Thanks, Otto!
Posted by: arjay
A great old ReplayTV/Tivo battle thread!
Lori wrote quite a paragraph:
Actually, Woody, there is a way to set up deliberately conflicting season passes. First, a word about current season pass logic. Let’s say that I set up a season pass to Ally McBeal, which would typically air on Mondays at 9:00. I also have a season pass to Angel, which typically airs on Tuesdays at 9:00. When I set them up, there is no conflict. I think that we are all in agreement, though, that sometimes shifting schedules can create conflicts where there weren’t any before. So, let’s say that I set up the “Angel” season pass first. If the WB runs an episode of Angel on a Monday night at 9:00, Ally McBeal won’t record. If two season pass recordings come into conflict, the one created first wins. Since most of us don’t always know when the network is going to shift things around on us, I check my “to do” list every couple of days, just to make sure that there isn’t a “special” episode of Buffy (likely a repeat) airing opposite, say, Will and Grace this week (because Buffy, being the first SP I ever created, wins all fights. Kind of a case of life imitating art…) Now, once you recognize how the system works, it’s easy enough to get around. Here’s my real life situation. I love “Will and Grace”. I love “Angel” more. They are both on on Tuesdays at 9:00. I want to set it up to record such that if “Angel” is on, “Angel” gets recorded. However, if “Angel” is pre-empted for some reason, I want to get “W&G” instead. I want the system to do this for me. I don’t want to have to set up single records every time Angel is pre-empted. To accomplish this is a little complicated but it works like a charm. First, set up your season pass for “Angel”. Then, go into the “to do” list and cancel all the episodes that it lists (1 or 2, depending on how much current data you have). Now, set up a season pass for “Will and Grace”. Since TiVo can’t find any conflicting records in the “to do” list, it will allow it. Then, go back in and delete all the episodes of “W&G” from the “to do” list. Manually add back the 1 or 2 “Angel” episodes that you deleted and you’re set. If “Angel” is on, it gets recorded. If it’s not, “W&G” automatically backfills. The other nice thing is that, now that we're into repeats (and I managed to see every episode of "Angel" during the season), all I need to do is cancel "Angel" from my "to do" list every couple of weeks and I automatically get "W&G" instead (which I didn't see many of, due to the aforementioned conflicts...) It’s not pretty, I’ll grant you, but it works and it’s predictable. And with the Prioritizer, it’s going to be pretty as well.
The point of this is that I think that we are all pretty used to setting things up that conflict and are well aware of the possibility of undesirable outcome. The difference is that with the “to do” list as the final arbiter, we feel that we have complete control of the experience.
------------------
--Lori
Lieutenant, TiVo Army
[This message has been edited by Lori (edited June 20, 2000).]
Followed later by ReplayMike:
Hi Jason,
Keep in mind that for many channels, there may or may not be space available, depending upon whether the user watches and deletes shows, etc. Even with a guaranteed Theme channel -- it might not record a 4pm show of "Frasier" if it's already full. But, if at 3 you watch and delete an episode, then there's room and it may record.
This has been one of the concerns in our doing some sort of "To-Do" list -- we don't want to mislead people by predicting that something will or will not be recorded when that could change due to fairly innocuous user action. It would be relatively simple to show all the pending guaranteed Show-based and Single-record activities happening in the upcoming days, but feedback in this forum has been pretty clear about people wanting to know about Theme and Zone channels too, and that's much more complicated.
------------------
Mike Kobb
ReplayTV, Inc.
ReplayTV. Some televisions have all the fun.
http://www.replaytv.com
The entire thread is 6 pages long with some monster posts.
Y'know both ReplayTV and TiVo are impressive machines for the things they do.
If someone wants a service to automatically and reliably record programmmed choices for later viewing TiVo cannot be beat. It offers a high tech solution for largely affluent tech oriented people many of whom are perhaps are too busy for their own good.
ReplayTV has developed special niche capabilities which may appeal strongly to a dedicated but limited hi-tech following. Hi speed internet video file transfers appear to have a way to go before becoming fully practical however.
Perhaps my desire to have a cheap basic philosophical alternative to TiVo and ReplayTV will not become mainstream. For now however there appears to be something for everyone with more on the way!
Posted by: cwoody222
I can't believe I was so pro-ReplayTV in that long post referenced above. YIKES! :)
Anyway, to be far, today MyReplayTV.com seems to be working properly. But it wasn't on Sunday and it hadn't been for about a week+ before that.
Posted by: stripes
It is also nice that things have moved forward (at least for TiVo), you no longer have to make the seassion passes in some order reflecting how important they are. You can shuffle them around with the SPM anytime, well at least any time you have 10 minutes to kill :-)
I also see Replay's problem with having a TODO list has more to do with it not recording a show when there is too much stuff as opposed to TiVo's default of removing the oldest show (or oldest of that type). What does TiVo put on the TODO list when you have a SP set to "keep at most two", "save until I delete", and you have two of them recorded already? Does it not display it? If so it has a similar problem to Replay, watching and manually removing one of them will change the TODO list (sometimes quite a bit)! Maybe TiVo doesn't care since they figure most shows will not be set up that way?
(and if you have a show recorded 30 days ago, a repeat will not be scheduled to record, but if you delete it will the repeat be scheduled? I know if you have a unwatched show get auto-deleted from Now Playing it won't count for the 28 day rule and TiVo may reschedule it...when else might a delete cause the TODO to change?)
Posted by: Otto
quote:
Originally posted by stripes
What does TiVo put on the TODO list when you have a SP set to "keep at most two", "save until I delete", and you have two of them recorded already? Does it not display it? If so it has a similar problem to Replay, watching and manually removing one of them will change the TODO list (sometimes quite a bit)! Maybe TiVo doesn't care since they figure most shows will not be set up that way?
Yes, but stuff can only be added to the ToDo list this way. Nothing gets removed, so where's the fire?
quote:
(and if you have a show recorded 30 days ago, a repeat will not be scheduled to record, but if you delete it will the repeat be scheduled? I know if you have a unwatched show get auto-deleted from Now Playing it won't count for the 28 day rule and TiVo may reschedule it...when else might a delete cause the TODO to change?)
I'm not sure, but Tivo may add it to the 28 day list on deletion as opposed to on record.. It already wouldn't record something if it was in Now Playing, so add on delete makes the most sense. Also, if you don't watch a program, and it gets auto-deleted, it does not get added to the 28 day list, which fits in with this theory.
Posted by: Mark Lopez
quote:
Originally posted by Cornflakeguy
Wish lists are worthless, suggestions are even more worthless, I have them turned off. Thumbs up and thumbs down indeed.
While I agree that suggestions are worthless (for me) and I have them turned off, I find wishlists very helpful. Especially if I see an ad for an upcoming show that I will want to see that is outside of the guide data timeframe. A quick wishlist will make sure I get it.
Posted by: stripes
quote:
Originally posted by Otto
Yes, but stuff can only be added to the ToDo list this way. Nothing gets removed, so where's the fire?
Not exactly. Stuff can get added to ToDo that way, and if the added item is on at the same time as a less important item something can be removed. When that something is removed, it might actually be something on again at another time...and that other time might be a conflict...
So adding a recording that way might change a whole lot of things. Odds are it will only change one or two things though.
Posted by: dmdeane
quote:
Originally posted by arjay
Yikes, such an analysis.
Occasionally TV is excellent; more often it's OK.
I don't want to watch the best I could ever hope for all the time. Most times I just want to watch TV. I enjoyed ID4 last night instead of the Oscars.
Go with the flow! In a metaphysical sense there is a constant shortage of the very best. Welcome it when it comes along but don't expect it all the time.
Unless it's just one of those days I can always find something OK to watch (no worse than a Suggestion!) from well over a hundred satellite and OTA channels. Often the best programming available on a given day is as good (but different) as that available on another day.
If everything was the very best all the time we'd hardly appreciate it for what it was. We'd screw it up like this beautiful earth we live on.
There is truly a time for all things. I like to go with the flow instead of engineering the path of the flow.
But enough BS analysis!
So your argument is that TiVo is too good?
Frankly I've been reading your arguments against timeshifting for ages now and I have never understood your reasoning. It all seems to boil down to a passive willingness to accept whatever drek happens to be on when one has time to watch TV.
If anything your "reasoning" seems to be the best argument for TiVo-style timeshifting I've ever read, or would be if there were "tongue-in-cheek" or "irony" tags around your posts so that we would know that we should be reading your posts in an ironical, rather than a literal, sense.
Posted by: DrStrange
quote:
Originally posted by stripes
and if you have a show recorded 30 days ago, a repeat will not be scheduled to record, but if you delete it will the repeat be scheduled? I know if you have a unwatched show get auto-deleted from Now Playing it won't count for the 28 day rule and TiVo may reschedule it...when else might a delete cause the TODO to change?
I seem to recall somebody saying that if you delete the show from to-do Tivo won't hunt down another showing, but if you elect to bump it from a conflict dialog in favor of something else, Tivo will try to get other showings. The idea being that deleting the show says you don't want it at all, while pre-empting it says you just want something else more, but would like the first thing too. If that logic is applied throughout that would explain why auto-deletes get rescheduled, and would suggest that deliberate deletes won't.
Posted by: arjay
quote:
Originally posted by dmdeane
Frankly I've been reading your arguments against timeshifting for ages now and I have never understood your reasoning. It all seems to boil down to a passive willingness to accept whatever drek happens to be on when one has time to watch TV.
We'll always disagree. Enjoy watching TiVo as you chose. Thanks for your insulting interpretation of my way of enjoying TV.
If you can inform BrettStah of links to my earlier posts please do. I'm not going to repeat all that stuff.
Actually arguing for or against timeshifting is a waste of time. It's a personal decision which doesn't need to be advocated or defended.
TiVo has many unique features. Why not talk about them and let new TiVo prospects chose for themselves which ones are important to them?
Posted by: DrStrange
quote:
Originally posted by arjay
TiVo has many unique features. Why not talk about them and let new TiVo prospects chose for themselves which ones are important to them?
Actually that's how most of these debates with you start. We talk about Tivo features, and you jump in to to make sure everyone knows how much you don't need them. It's how this one started.
Here's an idea. Why don't you let us talk about Tivo features, and let new Tivo non-prospects choose for themselves whether they're important to them?
Posted by: smak
Somebody can create a Philips HDR 312 bulletin board, or a Sony SVR2000 bulletin board. There people can talk about all the wonderful features that their hardware can do without service.
I say if you don't have service, you have a Sony, not a Tivo.
-smak-
Posted by: arjay
quote:
Originally posted by DrStrange
"new Tivo non-prospects"
Huh?
I just upgraded my ver.1.3 SA to ver. 2.5.1. It hasn't even finished installing the upgrade yet.
Because of phone call glitches (needed a new local number it turned out) I called TiVo's customer service. I especially appreciated the CSR's helping with my tech questions and not pushing me to subscribe to TiVo service. That's a great way to do business!
I subscribed to the TiVo service on a monthly basis. Will get the the first month's service for $10; rate increase doesn't start for a few days apparently.
I'll probably explore ver. 2.5.1 without guide data for a few days before letting TiVo call for guide data so I can see the TiVo service improvements.
Posted by: arjay
quote:
Originally posted by DrStrange
We talk about Tivo features, and you jump in to to make sure everyone knows how much you don't need them.
I don't need many of the TiVo services' features. I basically want the ability to instantly record and review an ongoing program.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Upgrade to ver 2.5.1 is complete. For now the TiVo has unsubbed functionality so I can check it out without service. In a few days I'll let it call in and check out TiVo service's new functionalities.
In all honesty it's unlikely I'll continue with TiVo's service but not for lack of understanding what it does and how it works.
Posted by: BrettStah
arjay:
I do realize you don't use/need the Tivo time-shifting features. What hasn't been made too clear is what the negative(s) are to using a PVR's time-shifting features. That's all I (and others who've read your posts) have asked. From your own post in this thread, you seemed to indicate that you don't want to watch the best possible shows possible. Instead, you can find something "good enough" on most of the time.
As I've said before, you're like a guy with a motorcycle, who prefers to push the motorcycle around with your feet instead of putting gasoline in it in order to use the engine. It's your right to do so, but you can't be too surprised that people think it's a little "different". People who only need to go to a couple of destinations (downhill preferably! :)) can make do with that... others with many destinations prefer to use the engine...
Posted by: DrStrange
quote:
Originally posted by BrettStah
As I've said before, you're like a guy with a motorcycle, who prefers to push the motorcycle around with your feet instead of putting gasoline in it in order to use the engine. It's your right to do so, but you can't be too surprised that people think it's a little "different".
Also it's not productive, or particularly wise, to choose the equivalent of a biker bar to advocate such a position. :)
Posted by: arjay
quote:
Originally posted by BrettStah
arjay:
What hasn't been made too clear is what the negative(s) are to using a PVR's time-shifting features.
Ha! There are no negatives if that's what you like to do. It's totally negative if that's not what you like to do.
quote:
That's all I (and others who've read your posts) have asked.
Which I have answered innumerable times and you seem to willfully misunderstand.
quote:
From your own post in this thread, you seemed to indicate that you don't want to watch the best possible shows possible. Instead, you can find something "good enough" on most of the time.
That's your interpretation of what I said. You seem to willfully misinterpret everything I say.
There are more than the three or four people who are currently posting to this increasingly pointless exchange who have read what I wrote. I hope they all judge for themselves.
quote:
As I've said before, you're like a guy with a motorcycle, who prefers to push the motorcycle around with your feet instead of putting gasoline in it in order to use the engine. It's your right to do so, but you can't be too surprised that people think it's a little "different". People who only need to go to a couple of destinations (downhill preferably! :)) can make do with that... others with many destinations prefer to use the engine...
I find your analogy ludicrous, but you're free to keep repeating it!
Posted by: arjay
quote:
Originally posted by DrStrange
Also it's not productive, or particularly wise, to choose the equivalent of a biker bar to advocate such a position. :)
A threat?
Posted by: rogben
I actually think I understand arjay's perspective... he cares about TV as a relaxing, time-consuming activity, but he doesn't care about individual programs that much. The "disengage brain, prop up feet" experience of television viewing is what he's after, not any specific sort of stimulation. Good TV isn't necessarily better for his purposes than Bad TV because TV isn't there to be good or bad... it's there to fill up the holes in a day.
Ten years from now such a POV will seem quaint and unusual, but I think he's quite mainstream in 2002. If he weren't, TiVo's sales would rival those of DVD players... there are still too many millions of people for whom experiencing the tube is what your eyes do while eating dinner, or what your ears do while cooking it. It isn't art or even entertainment as much as busywork for the brain.
--
Roger
Posted by: c3
I don't think the discussions with arjay are productive when arjay clearly doesn't want to time shift. I think it's safe to say that most TiVo owners want to time shift, and TiVo makes it much easier to do that compared to a VCR. That's why I bought my TiVo in the first place (and the second one.....). There is no way for me to schedule my work and other activities around the TV programs I want to watch.
Posted by: dmdeane
quote:
Originally posted by arjay
We'll always disagree. Enjoy watching TiVo as you chose. Thanks for your insulting interpretation of my way of enjoying TV.
If you can inform BrettStah of links to my earlier posts please do. I'm not going to repeat all that stuff.
Actually arguing for or against timeshifting is a waste of time. It's a personal decision which doesn't need to be advocated or defended.
TiVo has many unique features. Why not talk about them and let new TiVo prospects chose for themselves which ones are important to them?
Well, you are free to choose to interpret my response as "insulting" if you want; I also am free to interpret your reasoning against timeshifting as an insult to my intelligence. I'm happy to hear people say "this feature is of no use to me"; it's quite another thing to constantly hear a line of circular reasoning against timeshifting that essentially asserts that less is more, good is bad, up is down, and black is white. Maybe if you looked carefully at what you are saying, you would interpret our responses to your logic not as "insulting", but as a quite reasonable response to bad logic. If you say something ridiculous, don't act insulted if we point out its ridiculousness.
Posted by: arjay
quote:
Originally posted by rogben
I actually think I understand arjay's perspective... he cares about TV as a relaxing, time-consuming activity, but he doesn't care about individual programs that much. The "disengage brain, prop up feet" experience of television viewing is what he's after, not any specific sort of stimulation. Good TV isn't necessarily better for his purposes than Bad TV because TV isn't there to be good or bad... it's there to fill up the holes in a day.
Totally untrue. My TV has an on/off switch same as yours.
quote:
Ten years from now such a POV will seem quaint and unusual, but I think he's quite mainstream in 2002. If he weren't, TiVo's sales would rival those of DVD players... there are still too many millions of people for whom experiencing the tube is what your eyes do while eating dinner, or what your ears do while cooking it. It isn't art or even entertainment as much as busywork for the brain.
Such is your opinion with which I of course disagree.
If DVR prices (including any required service fees) were equal to DVD player prices (cheapest I've ever seen was $69. but under $100. is now a typical bottom line price) DVR sales would skyrocket; IMHO!
Posted by: arjay
quote:
Originally posted by c3
I don't think the discussions with arjay are productive when arjay clearly doesn't want to time shift. I think it's safe to say that most TiVo owners want to time shift, and TiVo makes it much easier to do that compared to a VCR. That's why I bought my TiVo in the first place (and the second one.....). There is no way for me to schedule my work and other activities around the TV programs I want to watch.
I agree with you totally. This thread has gone in a pointless direction. (Although nitpicking every ReplayTV vs. TiVo feature difference seems equally pointless to me!)
Posted by: dmdeane
quote:
Originally posted by rogben
I actually think I understand arjay's perspective... he cares about TV as a relaxing, time-consuming activity, but he doesn't care about individual programs that much. The "disengage brain, prop up feet" experience of television viewing is what he's after, not any specific sort of stimulation. Good TV isn't necessarily better for his purposes than Bad TV because TV isn't there to be good or bad... it's there to fill up the holes in a day.
Ten years from now such a POV will seem quaint and unusual, but I think he's quite mainstream in 2002. If he weren't, TiVo's sales would rival those of DVD players... there are still too many millions of people for whom experiencing the tube is what your eyes do while eating dinner, or what your ears do while cooking it. It isn't art or even entertainment as much as busywork for the brain.
--
Roger
And nothing about TiVo prevents anyone from continuing to use their TV as the intellectual equivalent of valium....however the fact remains, that the vast, overwhelming majority of TiVo users prefer to use the timeshifting features of TiVo, and either stop watching live TV, or watch live TV much less than formerly.
Since all of these TiVo people either did not timeshift or did so only partially with their VCR's, and since all or most of them now timeshift with TiVo, it stands to reason that TiVo is not lacking in sales because "ordinary" people won't timeshift, but rather because they don't know what a TiVo is or what it can do. They will only "get it" by word of mouth or other means of actually seeing what a TiVo can do.
If a hundred million TiVos were to magically appear all across America, hooked up and ready to go, we would quickly see how many people really like "going with the flow" and passively accepting whatever happens to be on, and how many actually would prefer to have some control over their TV watching. I suspect that most Americans would do as most TiVo owners now do, if given the chance.
Right now the barrier is a barrier in price and in marketing a difficult concept; at least, a concept that is difficult to describe, but easy to adopt once one has a chance to use the service in question. It isn't a barrier due to any unwillingness of Americans to timeshift. The VCR failed at this task because it is a very lousy, high-maintenance, unrealiable tool for the job, unlike TiVo.
I sincerely doubt that most Americans don't care about individual programs; one might as well say that they don't care about individual movies but just go to the cinema to eat overpriced junk food and to turn their brains off for two hours. Obviously, since Americans prefer some movies and avoid others, it must be that they actually care about movies as such - just as they care about TV programs as such. Marketers and advertisers, in fact, realize this. Without programs there would be no TV watchers.
BTW, one reason TV lost audience to the Internet is because people found another way to waste their time without having to feel like they were really wasting their time, as is the case with most TV programing. Perhaps when timeshifting is universal we will finally have a mechanism for enouraging better TV and discouraging bad TV...or at least segmenting the market enough to make everyone happy/happier.
Posted by: arjay
quote:
Originally posted by dmdeane
Well, you are free to choose to interpret my response as "insulting" if you want; I also am free to interpret your reasoning against timeshifting as an insult to my intelligence. I'm happy to hear people say "this feature is of no use to me"; it's quite another thing to constantly hear a line of circular reasoning against timeshifting that essentially asserts that less is more, good is bad, up is down, and black is white. Maybe if you looked carefully at what you are saying, you would interpret our responses to your logic not as "insulting", but as a quite reasonable response to bad logic. If you say something ridiculous, don't act insulted if we point out its ridiculousness.
If you like timeshifting good for you! If someone doesn't good for them! With a DVR it really isn't timeshifting vs. no timeshifting but rather how much.
It isn't a lack of logic which causes me not to timeshift a lot. Although I enjoy living at a slower pace than many I enjoy quality TV and finding it is not a problem.
Your line of reasoning pits less against more, good vs. bad, up/down, black/white. You're advocating the paradigm shift. You really seem to think that hi-tech provides an answer to providing quality in one's life! I hope you enjoy reading a few books too.
We're always going to disagree, no? Are we going to insult each other when doing so?
I hope you're not wrapped too tight running on an excercise wheel in a virtual rat race.
Posted by: DrStrange
quote:
Originally posted by arjay
A threat?
My, aren't you the paranoid one. No, I'm just pointing out that camping out in a Tivo support forum repeatedly telling everyone how you don't need or want Tivo is opening yourself up to be endlessly disagreed with. Starting such debates in a place like this then telling everyone else how pointless the debate is after they've all ganged up on you is also rather silly behavior.
quote:
Originally posted by rogben
I actually think I understand arjay's perspective... he cares about TV as a relaxing, time-consuming activity, but he doesn't care about individual programs that much.
Hey I get that. But I don't get why he makes a habit of visiting a PVR forum to tell people he doesn't need what they offer, over and over. He seems not to get that most people who would find his point of view worthwhile first off probably don't read this forum since they wouldn't fork over the bucks for a PVR in the first place, and they sure don't repeatedly post here telling everyone about their disinterest. Anyone who was interested probably lost interest the first dozen times he argued his position. He calls the Tivo vs Replay threads pointless, but seems fond of repeatedly turning them into discussions about his personal TV watching style which is off-topic, even more pointless, and very dead horsey. Been there done that, bored now. Wish arjay would get bored with it too.
quote:
Originally posted by arjay
I with you totally. This thread has gone in a pointless direction.
Yes, and it started in that direction with you telling us yet again that you aren't interested in timeshifting. We get it. Give it a rest already.
quote:
Although nitpicking every ReplayTV vs. TiVo feature difference seems equally pointless to me!
Of course it does because you don't use them as timeshifting devices, which is where many of those "nitpicky" things become important. To return to Bretts analogy (which is apt whether you like it or not) of course you wouldn't care about such things as a motorcycles engine size, handling characteristics and whatnot. None of that matters if you just push it with your feet, or ride it down hills with the engine off. But those things do matter to those who actually drive the things. Just because you don't care about such things doesn't mean they are nitpicking.
Posted by: arjay
quote:
Originally posted by dmdeane
If a hundred million TiVos were to magically appear all across America, hooked up and ready to go, we would quickly see how many people really like "going with the flow" and passively accepting whatever happens to be on, and how many actually would prefer to have some control over their TV watching. I suspect that most Americans would do as most TiVo owners now do, if given the chance.
It's too bad TiVo's aren't available both with and without service (and no nagscreens). Of course that's ridiculous. But for the sake of this argument we'd be able to find out quickly the value people place on TiVo's service over that of a basic DVR if the service could be added at any time.
DVR sales will increase as prices come down.
Does female mud wrestling count as quality TV if you timeshift it?
Posted by: dgh
quote:
Originally posted by arjay
You really seem to think that hi-tech provides an answer to providing quality in one's life! I hope you enjoy reading a few books too.
Hi-tech (TiVo) is a good answer to hi-tech (TV). I enjoy the fact that I never feel the need to watch the clock while reading a book or doing other non-TV activities.
quote:
Originally posted by arjay
I hope you're not wrapped too tight running on an excercise wheel in a virtual rat race.
Well not everyone gets to be retired like you, but even many retired people prefer not to be scheduled by the networks.
Posted by: arjay
quote:
Originally posted by DrStrange
My, aren't you the paranoid one. No, I'm just pointing out that camping out in a Tivo support forum repeatedly telling everyone how you don't need or want Tivo is opening yourself up to be endlessly disagreed with. Starting such debates in a place like this then telling everyone else how pointless the debate is after they've all ganged up on you is also rather silly behavior.
Glad to hear that your biker analogy isn't a threat. Gang up on me all you want. Nitpick. This is a free public Forum even if it is largely subsidized by contributions from TiVo, Inc. BTW, many of my comments about TiVo are complimentary. Lurkers are asked to check for themselves.
quote:
Hey I get that. But I don't get why he makes a habit of visiting a PVR forum to tell people he doesn't need what they offer, over and over. He seems not to get that most people who would find his point of view worthwhile first off probably don't read this forum since they wouldn't fork over the bucks for a PVR in the first place, and they sure don't repeatedly post here telling everyone about their disinterest. Anyone who was interested probably lost interest the first dozen times he argued his position. He calls the Tivo vs Replay threads pointless, but seems fond of repeatedly turning them into discussions about his personal TV watching style which is off-topic, even more pointless, and very dead horsey. Been there done that, bored now. Wish arjay would get bored with it too.
Even though this is increasingly pointless it isn't boring. At least I'm not watching dreck on TV!
I like DVR's. Find them extremely useful. And I give TiVo its due. You seem to repeatedly post your points of view over and over especially your dislike of ReplayTV.
quote:
Yes, and it started in that direction with you telling us yet again that you aren't interested in timeshifting. We get it. Give it a rest already.
Of course it does because you don't use them as timeshifting devices, which is where many of those "nitpicky" things become important. To return to Bretts analogy (which is apt whether you like it or not) of course you wouldn't care about such things as a motorcycles engine size, handling characteristics and whatnot. None of that matters if you just push it with your feet, or ride it down hills with the engine off. But those things do matter to those who actually drive the things. Just because you don't care about such things doesn't mean they are nitpicking.
And you don't like ReplayTV. Give it a rest already.
I use DVR's to timeshift. Just to a different degree than you. I just don't need a computer to schedule my TV programs.
The differences between (for example) ReplayTV's and TiVo's 30 sec. QS are not something I find worth talking about. But they certainly are for you.
We're always going to disagree. But I'll speak my mind when an issue comes up. BTW, I used to own a couple of motorcycles.
Posted by: stripes
So someone says
quote:
From your own post in this thread, you seemed to indicate that you don't want to watch the best possible shows possible. Instead, you can find something "good enough" on most of the time.
Then arjay replies:
quote:
That's your interpretation of what I said. You seem to willfully misinterpret everything I say.
There are more than the three or four people who are currently posting to this increasingly pointless exchange who have read what I wrote. I hope they all judge for themselves.
Well I judged shortly after you wrote this:
quote:
Occasionally TV is excellent; more often it's OK.
I don't want to watch the best I could ever hope for all the time. Most times I just want to watch TV. I enjoyed ID4 last night instead of the Oscars.
Go with the flow! In a metaphysical sense there is a constant shortage of the very best. Welcome it when it comes along but don't expect it all the time.
Unless it's just one of those days I can always find something OK to watch (no worse than a Suggestion!) from well over a hundred satellite and OTA channels. Often the best programming available on a given day is as good (but different) as that available on another day.
If everything was the very best all the time we'd hardly appreciate it for what it was. We'd screw it up like this beautiful earth we live on.
There is truly a time for all things. I like to go with the flow instead of engineering the path of the flow.
To mean exactly that you did not want to watch the best of all shows, otherwise why would you say that you "don't want to watch the best I could ever hope for all the time"?
What else could that statment mean?
Posted by: BrettStah
arjay, I'm still puzzled exactly how I'm "willfully misinterpreting" what you've said.
In this very thread, you said:quote:
Occasionally TV is excellent; more often it's OK.
I don't want to watch the best I could ever hope for all the time. Most times I just want to watch TV. I enjoyed ID4 last night instead of the Oscars.
Go with the flow! In a metaphysical sense there is a constant shortage of the very best. Welcome it when it comes along but don't expect it all the time.
Unless it's just one of those days I can always find something OK to watch (no worse than a Suggestion!) from well over a hundred satellite and OTA channels. Often the best programming available on a given day is as good (but different) as that available on another day.
If everything was the very best all the time we'd hardly appreciate it for what it was. We'd screw it up like this beautiful earth we live on.
There is truly a time for all things. I like to go with the flow instead of engineering the path of the flow.
I then said:quote:
From your own post in this thread, you seemed to indicate that you don't want to watch the best possible shows possible. Instead, you can find something "good enough" on most of the time.
Do you really think I'm willfully misinterpreting what you posted? I honestly still interpret it the way I've described above. Please let me know what part of that is a misinterpretation. It isn't "willful" though...
You are much better lately at admitting that you're not using the features most people use every day. I recall the infamous "Replay vs. Tivo live tv buffer" thread you alluded to earlier, in which you were claiming there was no way Tivo's buffer could be considered better because it's limited to 30 minutes. I pointed out that on a Replay when you watch a pre-recorded show, the live tv buffering stops. Also, on a Replay when it dials in every day the buffer is lost. Plus, you can't save the current show that's buffered, which is possible on Tivos. But you just kept mentioning the possible buffer length. At that point I mentioned you could get a similar result by just setting up a long manual recording. It wasn't clear at first (to me at least) that you didn't use your Replay to change channels, schedule recordings, or watch recordings. You only used it for the live tv buffer. Very few people seem to use their Replays or Tivos like that.
Keep pushing your motorcycle, arjay. It's your right to do so.
Posted by: arjay
quote:
Originally posted by dgh
Hi-tech (TiVo) is a good answer to hi-tech (TV). I enjoy the fact that I never feel the need to watch the clock while reading a book or doing other non-TV activities.
Basic TV isn't hi-tech and won't be until analog TV disappears. The more I'm enjoying a program on TV the less I use the remote.
quote:
Well not everyone gets to be retired like you, but even many retired people prefer not to be scheduled by the networks.
I wish I could work part time at a job which I liked as much as when I worked fulltime. I wish I was retired when I was 20 and had to work now instead. But you'll (probably) get the chance to see whether you like being retired!
I don't have great problems with network scheduling. Somehow the most popular shows are on in the evening not in the middle of the day or night. And DVR's timeshift easily when there are either show conflicts or personal conflicts.
Posted by: dgh
quote:
Originally posted by arjay
Basic TV isn't hi-tech and won't be until analog TV disappears. The more I'm enjoying a program on TV the less I use the remote.
My 10 year-old analog TV is full of chips including several microprocessors. That meets my definition of hi-tech. It doesn't do any gene splicing or anything like that if that's what you mean :)
quote:
Originally posted by arjay
I wish I was retired when I was 20 and had to work now instead. But you'll (probably) get the chance to see whether you like being retired!
So far I'm enjoying it immensely. I can't figure how I used to squeeze work in!
Posted by: arjay
quote:
Originally posted by stripes
So someone says
Then arjay replies:
Well I judged shortly after you wrote this:
To mean exactly that you did not want to watch the best of all shows, otherwise why would you say that you "don't want to watch the best I could ever hope for all the time"?
What else could that statment mean?
What is best? What's excellent? What's good? What's so-so? What's dreck?
Sometimes I prefer watching one of those airplane disaster movies instead of Hamlet.
There almost always is a show on on 24/7 150 channel TV which is at least as good as a Suggestion.
Posted by: arjay
quote:
Originally posted by dgh
My 10 year-old analog TV is full of chips including several microprocessors. That meets my definition of hi-tech. It doesn't do any gene splicing or anything like that if that's what you mean :)
So far I'm enjoying it immensely. I can't figure how I used to squeeze work in!
Congratulations! I thought you had 33 years to go!
It's nice not having to go down to the hardware store every couple of months to use their tube testor.
Posted by: dgh
quote:
Originally posted by arjay
Congratulations! I thought you had 33 years to go!
It's nice not having to go down to the hardware store every couple of months to use their tube testor.
No the 33 years is the time until I reach the age at which you once said that you started to respect opinions or something to that effect. In fact I've had a birthday since then so...
Posted by: arjay
quote:
Originally posted by BrettStah
arjay, I'm still puzzled exactly how I'm "willfully misinterpreting" what you've said.
In this very thread, you said:
I then said:Do you really think I'm willfully misinterpreting what you posted? I honestly still interpret it the way I've described above. Please let me know what part of that is a misinterpretation. It isn't "willful" though...
You are much better lately at admitting that you're not using the features most people use every day. I recall the infamous "Replay vs. Tivo live tv buffer" thread you alluded to earlier, in which you were claiming there was no way Tivo's buffer could be considered better because it's limited to 30 minutes. I pointed out that on a Replay when you watch a pre-recorded show, the live tv buffering stops. Also, on a Replay when it dials in every day the buffer is lost. Plus, you can't save the current show that's buffered, which is possible on Tivos. But you just kept mentioning the possible buffer length. At that point I mentioned you could get a similar result by just setting up a long manual recording. It wasn't clear at first (to me at least) that you didn't use your Replay to change channels, schedule recordings, or watch recordings. You only used it for the live tv buffer. Very few people seem to use their Replays or Tivos like that.
Keep pushing your motorcycle, arjay. It's your right to do so.
Brett, I used to try to quote every damn word and debate it. I'ts too much of a hassle. If we were having a verbal discussion we could debate "misinterpreting" so much more easily than checking everything and copying and pasting it. And we still wouldn't agree!
By far the most important reason to use a DVR (for me--how many times have I said this?) is its ability to instantly record and review an ongoing program.
I remember you once commented, "He doesn't record on his ReplayTV." Well that's not quite true. The recording buffer is a recording; it just doesn't have a TOC. But it's got limitations as you note above. I scheduled recordings on ReplayTV besides just using its buffer. ReplayTV like TiVo is too expensive not to use to its capabilities.
As I stated earlier in this thread, I've come to realize ReplayTV's recording buffer is more a default of its design logic than a feature. I found your suggestion of using a repeating manual timer recording ideal for an unsubbed TiVo.
Posted by: arjay
quote:
Originally posted by dgh
No the 33 years is the time until I reach the age at which you once said that you started to respect opinions or something to that effect. In fact I've had a birthday since then so...
Did it have something to do with "Never trust anybody over 30"? (I've totally forgotten.) I judge an opinion by its content; don't really care the age of the opinionated!
Posted by: dgh
quote:
Originally posted by arjay
Did it have something to do with "Never trust anybody over 30"? (I've totally forgotten.) I judge an opinion by its content; don't really care the age of the opinionated!
Basically you called someone (Feldon I think) an obnoxious kid or something like that but then you said you would excuse him if he was a 73 year-old um, bad smelling gaseous emission. (Or words to that effect :))
Posted by: arjay
quote:
Originally posted by dgh
Basically you called someone (Feldon I think) an obnoxious kid or something like that but then you said you would excuse him if he was a 73 year-old um, bad smelling gaseous emission. (Or words to that effect :))
You're right! I was being facetous. I think (hope!) I apologized already but if not I do so here. feldon seems mellower these days.
Posted by: Lori
And this thread had so much potential. :(
Posted by: rogben
quote:
Originally posted by dmdeane
I suspect that most Americans would do as most TiVo owners now do, if given the chance.
That's been TiVo's bet from the beginning... but it's a short-term loser. It is a huge mistake to overestimate how much the average person truly cares about the shows they watch. PVRs will change things eventually, IMO, but it'll take a while.
By and large, the people who currently snap up PVRs are the same class of people who buy video collections of television series and send bottles of Tobasco to network execs when their favorite show is about to be cancelled... IOW, people who see real value in the stuff they watch. The average viewer, OTOH, will scarcely notice when all but the highest profile shows are axed, and will comfortably slip into whatever the network uses as a replacement. It's all about viewing habits, not viewing tastes.
If you doubt that, try to pitch a strong Saturday night lineup to the networks... you've got as good a chance as anyone, since they haven't been able to convince a significant number of people to tune in on Saturdays for decades. On the flip-side, note that Jessie managed to survive for two entire seasons solely on the strength of its Friends lead-in... no one would have actually changed a channel to watch it. :)
quote:
I sincerely doubt that most Americans don't care about individual programs; one might as well say that they don't care about individual movies but just go to the cinema to eat overpriced junk food and to turn their brains off for two hours.
There is an almost unending list of fundamental differences between the theater and the tube... the experiences and the value attributed to them have little in common.
quote:
Without programs there would be no TV watchers.
Obviously. But as a group, those watchers don't care much about the quality of those programs... their daily schedules and expectations have far more to do with the Nielsens than individual discernment.
--
Roger
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