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"Moving"
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Posted by: kkollins

Just a little curious in the thought process on the following:

It seems on this board, that the view of DirecTivoers "moving" to get local channels is viewed as perfectly acceptable. However, DTV hackers are viewed as thieving criminals? What's the difference? Aren't both parties stealing?

Just curious to get some opinions on this.

Posted by: Scott Stevens

While I dont nescessarily advocate"moving", you are still paying DirecTv for the service. Hackers are not; that makes their situation a clear signal theft.

Posted by: kkollins

"Moving" can and does cost local TV stations THOUSAND'S of dollars in advertising revenue and they do not see any of the $5 per month "local" fee.

Posted by: Scott Stevens

How exactly does it cost the local stations advertising revenue? Does DTV pay locals a portion of the $ 5.99 fee? If you've "moved" and happen to be a Nielsen family, your diary will say you watched "x" show at "x:xx" time. I don't recall it asking on which channel.

Posted by: kkollins

Yes...they do ask. You can list a station in Nielson by either program, channel, call letters or slogan, ie "Superstation". So, if you live in Peoria but "move" to Chicago and you are a Nielson family and put down that you watched WMAQ Channel 5 (a Chicago station) every night that week. The local Peoria NBC affiliate gets no credit. I would estimate that there are probably only about 500 Nielson diaries sent out in Peoria. That one family of four would greatly affect the ratings and equate into large advertising loss' for the local station. That's the reasoning behind the ban on only being able to receive your local stations and not another markets.

Posted by: Norm_bone

quote:
Originally posted by kkollins
"Moving" can and does cost local TV stations THOUSAND'S of dollars in advertising revenue and they do not see any of the $5 per month "local" fee.

As one of the vast majority of non-Neilson families, I'm not sure I buy this. How is the local station getting more or less money? Since I am (both in fact and as far as they discern) still recieving their over the air channels, they still get the same subscriber base to establish their rates.

In fact, two of the OTA signals are unwatchable. (Not just an opinion, but a "blue screen of Tivo".) It would be correct for them to not count us as viewers, since we can't watch them.

Posted by: steuert

I had DirecTV before the national feeds were restricted - it was great!! If the local stations lost revenue (boo-hoo) it was because they provided crappy reception cluttered up with tasteless, boring local advertising. Not being willing to compete fairly, the Networks and cable companies ganged up on the satellite industry and bribed a bill through congress to artificially restrict the national feeds - never mind that it totally screwed the customer. Sorry, I just can't muster much sympathy for the local stations or their apologists!!

Posted by: spanishannouncetable

quote:
Originally posted by kkollins
"Moving" can and does cost local TV stations THOUSAND'S of dollars in advertising revenue and they do not see any of the $5 per month "local" fee.

"THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS" ?!? :p

Qualify this statement please. I doubt any local station has shown their bottom line has been negatively affected by the handful of satellite dish owners in their markets watching a program on an OOM station.

Posted by: Backhack

If you buy an out of market newspaper are you robbing the local paper "thousands of dollars" of ad revenue? The DMAs were set by Neilson not the FCC. I live 10 miles from the edge of the Houston DMA. I cant receive 3 of the local channels in my DMA and 2 of the networks are repeaters for 130 miles away. The WB/UPN went to spanish programming. Houston is 60 miles from here. Why cant I legally receive the Houston DMA? I sleep well at night after moving.

Posted by: BuggyBoyVT

I don't see how any affiliates are losing money because I 'moved'.
If I could not get Seattle locals, I would not watch ANY network TV because OTA reception is bad even with a good signal, and I can't record it.
All of the commercials that I view in Seattle are not pointless because most if not all of the advertisers also have locations here in Spokane. Spokane DMA stations are not losing more on me not watching, because I woulnd't watch their stations if I couldn't get Seattle anyway. So, I don't see how anyone is losing anything in my case.

Posted by: Otto

You aren't taking money from anyone. You forget that this is a Tivo forum, few/nobody here watches ads anyway. Is not watching ads robbing the station too? :p

Posted by: MMG

Good one Otto!

Posted by: Hunter Green

I, for one, can't get any locals -- and that was true even when SHVA insisted I could, and wouldn't let me get remotes. But I eventually got waivers (legitimately).

But even if you can get the locals, and you choose to get remotes instead, is that stealing from the locals because you choose not to watch them? By that reasoning, if I go to Best Buy, am I stealing from Circuit City? Am I stealing from the local WalMart if I buy something from WalMart's web site?

Geography used to give each local a de facto monopoly. Technology changed that. Now, if it weren't for backwards-looking legislation, locals would have to compete. There's no theft in deciding someone else offers a better product and being willing to pay to get it. If the locals want my viewership they can figure out what their competitors are doing better, and top it. That's how they lost it in the first place.

Posted by: kkollins

1. It's very simple how locals are losing money.....if you live in Peoria's legally defined DMA and can get a clear signal yet you "move" and get Chicago locals, the Peoria locals are not getting credit for your viewing because you're not watching their station which has LEGAL and EXCLUSIVE rights to the programming in your area. The lower their ratings the lower the advertising revenue. Yes, losing ONE Nielson family in a city the size of Peoria will EASILY equate to thousands of dollars.

2. You are breaking the law by "moving" just like you are if you are a DTV hacker.

3. I don't hack and I don't "move" and I could careless if anyone does either of these just like people speeding doesn't bother me...but I do think people need to realize that "moving", hacking or speeding are all illegal.

4. I was just looking for a lively discussion.

Posted by: Norm_bone

quote:
Originally posted by kkollins
1. It's very simple how locals are losing money.....if you live in Peoria's legally defined DMA and can get a clear signal yet you "move" and get Chicago locals, the Peoria locals are not getting credit for your viewing because you're not watching their station which has LEGAL and EXCLUSIVE rights to the programming in your area. The lower their ratings the lower the advertising revenue. Yes, losing ONE Nielson family in a city the size of Peoria will EASILY equate to thousands of dollars.

False assumption #1:
We don't get a clear signal.

False assumption #2:
The vast majority of viewers are not Nielson families.

So I ask again, how does a local lose money when a non-Nielson family moves to get a distant network on satellite, if they could not previously receive satellite locals?

quote:
Originally posted by kkollins

2. You are breaking the law by "moving" just like you are if you are a DTV hacker.

3. I don't hack and I don't "move" and I could careless if anyone does either of these just like people speeding doesn't bother me...but I do think people need to realize that "moving", hacking or speeding are all illegal.

I don't really disagree with this. It is, according to SHIVA, illegal. I don't think it's on the same moral plane, however, as hacking or shoplifting. I pay for locals; I receive locals. Granted, I mislead Dish into breaking SHIVA to provide them, but hackers and shoplifters aren't paying for what they receive.

Similarly, I feel no guilt for (arguably) breaking the DCMA to watch imported DVD's. I paid for them, I paid for my player. I'd be happy to buy the discs in my region were they available.

quote:
Originally posted by kkollins

4. I was just looking for a lively discussion.

Mission accomplished! :)

Posted by: Hunter Green

No one said they're not losing money. The debate is whether it's an issue of ethics; whether one is stealing money from them.

If the only point was to say it's illegal, well, that was easy. But it's not about to bring about a very lively discussion -- only a collective "so what?" Ethics are more important and far more interesting.

Posted by: BuggyBoyVT

I'm not trying to start a flame war, just stating the facts.
It was said in here repeatedly that there really isn't a law that says its illegal for an individual to receive unqualified locals, just illegal for the provider to give you access to them.

Posted by: OLdDog

This issue has been beaten to death in:
Is moving legal?
and
Moving Poll.

Do we really need a redundant, and ultimately useless, thread for this unresolvable issue?

Posted by: JasonE

quote:
Originally posted by OLdDog
This issue has been beaten to death in:
Is moving legal?
and
Moving Poll.

Do we really need a redundant, and ultimately useless, thread for this unresolvable issue?

Amen.

Let it go. :D ;)

-Jason

Posted by: Jeff412

I know this has been answered, but when I search for "moving" I get hundreds of threads.

Can someone tell me how to "move" or point me to a thread that explains it. BTW: I can't receive locals even though they say I can.

Thanks,
jeff

Posted by: dgh

quote:
Originally posted by Jeff412
I know this has been answered, but when I search for "moving" I get hundreds of threads.

Can someone tell me how to "move" or point me to a thread that explains it. BTW: I can't receive locals even though they say I can.

Thanks,
jeff

A couple of years ago, a new employee told me of his experience getting DTV network feeds (before locals were offered).

He called them up and gave them an address that looked like it was in the middle of nowhere - oops the DirecTV rep said that area had local service - and here's the best part - he then said "are you sure that's where you live?" So the employee said, "um no" and picked another spot. The DirecTV rep said "Sorry no, would you like to try again?" The third try worked. It gives you a good idea of how "serious" this "moving" stuff is to DirecTV :)

Posted by: OLdDog

Jeff,

Check your PMs.

Posted by: Mike Lang

quote:
Originally posted by Jeff412

Can someone tell me how to "move" or point me to a thread that explains it.

The forum admin. does not want this type of information on the forum for legal reasons.

Posted by: Norm_bone

quote:
Originally posted by Mike Lang

The forum admin. does not want this type of information on the forum for legal reasons.

Really, or is this a joke, given the start of the topic? Pardon my humor impairment.

Posted by: BuggyBoyVT

Really...

Posted by: Mike Lang

quote:
Originally posted by Norm_bone

Really, or is this a joke, given the start of the topic? Pardon my humor impairment.

quote:
Originally posted by David Bott
Do we really need this kind of posting on the site? This is just dishonest and really sends the wrong message about this site does it not?

I ask that you please consider what you are doing here with this "moving" topic. This really is dishonest and really is not at all needed, and I will go as far to say not really welcomed by me, on the site.