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Best Buy "Closing Out" Series 2? End of TiVo?
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Posted by: rclams
Howdy:
New Series 2 owner (60 hour, ver. 2.03) but it wasn't easy (ordered over BestBuy.com for pickup, no stores had units, then BestBuy.com stopped taking orders ("Sorry, no longer taking orders for this item"), then last night I bought the last unit at the Blossom Hill (San Jose) Best Buy).
While chit-chatting with the TV department sales dude during checkout, I mentioned how hard it was to find these. He said "yeah, and soon they won't even be available at all".
:confused:
He said that starting with the next shipment, his manager said they were going to be "closing out" this product.
I gulped, said nothing, read the 30 day return policy wording and when I activated service, chose the monthly option.
No more orders at BestBuy.com? Close out sales at the stores? Is TiVo going away? :eek:
Or is Sony about to flood the market with its Series 2 real soon now? ;)
Posted by: nextguard2
Well there are some indicationsthat Sony is getting out of the Tivo business..
And Series 2 are in short supply at this point. But that is largely a case of pent up demand. Tivo is selling them as fast as they can have them made by a third party. Best Buy is using their supply to generate store traffic.
And honestly, if everything a given Best Buy sales person says was true then the earth would be flat and Microsoft would rule the PVR world.
As a counterpoint, the Best Buy near my house was doing Tivo training for their associates this week.
Posted by: Want1394
quote:
Originally posted by nextguard2
......as fast as they can have them made by a third party ........
And this is known how???
Posted by: MighTiVo
quote:
Originally posted by Want1394
And this is known how???
Lack of supply?
Posted by: jamesbobo
I have been to several BB's in NJ the past two weeks. While they had a Series2 on display, all sold out of boxed ones. All said they were getting more in, none said they were being discontinued.
Posted by: mtchamp
I went to my local Best Buy in Dartmouth MA to buy one on Saturday 05/04/02. They received a total of 3, never took one out of the box and sold out. They told me the warehouses were cleaned out and said nothing about closing them out. Best Buy is just out of stock and waiting for a new supply. I ordered one from tivo.com same night. Does this mean Best Buy sold out of maybe 2 or 3 thousand Series2 TiVos in about 2 weeks? TiVolutionary could maybe shed some light on this situation.
Posted by: stevel
My local Best Buy had one Series 2 on the shelf (in a box) when I looked yesterday.
A salesman tries to sell you what he has, and will say almost anything to get you to buy now.
Posted by: esperantisto
It's interesting...
Usually when people gripe about no TiVos I go to my local BestBuy and there they are.
Yesterday I went and they had not a single TiVo of any kind. There was a small pricetag for a Series2, but no machine above it. There were a couple of huge Ultimate TV displays and a video playing. I thought they weren't supposed to promote UTV anymore...
Posted by: nextguard2
quote:
Originally posted by esperantisto
It's interesting...
.....
There were a couple of huge Ultimate TV displays and a video playing. I thought they weren't supposed to promote UTV anymore...
That is interesting...
Some of the guys on Yahoo Tivo forum reported that in last week's Best Buy insert, a full page was devoted to promoting UltimateTV and no mention of Tivo... at the time my reaction was "well they are probably clearing out the remaining UTV's" but I do think its a little weird to be pushing a competitor after suposedly signing an exclusive deal with Tivo.
Posted by: lukepurdy
There isn't a Best Buy near my home but I made a business trip to Houston on Thursday. I was driving so I planned to arrive a few hours early and pick up a Series 2. The first place (Willowbrook Mall)was out so I asked them to check the other stores. There were only about ten left in the whole city. Luckily, I was able to pick one up at a nearby store. I lucked out again because the maintenance window was cancelled on the system I was supposed to help them with so I (and my new Tivo) went home that night instead of staying in a hotel room wishing I could start playing with my new gadget.
Posted by: bgreen5
quote:
Originally posted by nextguard2
Well there are some indicationsthat Sony is getting out of the Tivo business..
Do you mean the stand-alone TiVo business? Or did I miss some major news story in the last 10 days?
My understanding is that Sony paid Tivo $14 million in licensing to include the service/technology in other types of consumer electronics offerings.
Posted by: stahta01
quote:
Originally posted by nextguard2
And honestly, if everything a given Best Buy sales person says was true then the earth would be flat and Microsoft would rule the PVR world.
I just wished what the bestbuy sales person said to me was true.
He said the Series 2 has two tuners so it can record two channels at once.
But, he is wrong, I told him he was but he did not seem to believe me.
I just wish he was correct, in this case only!!
Tim S
Posted by: scotty321
Let me explain something to TiVolutionary and the people at TiVo Inc.:
It doesn't make one damn bit of difference how good your product is, if your distribution SUCKS. If your distribution sucks, you will fail as a company. Plain and simple. The distribution of TiVo absolutely SUCKS. This has been an ongoing problem for many months now, and no end to this problem is in sight.
Posted by: bigray327
The sky is falling.
Posted by: Philosofy
I wanted a pony. But they were out of stock. The demand must not be very good for ponies now. :(
Posted by: willardcpa
I heard that they stopped making ponies!
Posted by: controlio
God, I love this. First, the b!tching is about TiVo being too pricey to move. Now that people actually WANT one, people b!tch that they're selling out.
Let me explain a little something to you. In the marketing world, selling out of a product is what's known as a Good Thing(tm). It means demand exceeds supply, and it means that you can produce the product at 100% capacity without major fear of excess or stale product. This is what we want!!!
The reason Series 1 units were scarce, was because they were made from a fab that cost TiVo money for every unit. It was an unprofitable design. Thus, they made just enough - so they didn't lose too much money or get stuck with units they couldn't move. RB has explained this in other threads, and it's not a tough concept to grasp. If a store sold out, they ordered more, and they'd receive a few more in a few days. Minimal risk involved.
With Series 2, the fab is finally profitable. They did the smart thing, and signed a contract with Best Buy that involved good product placement AND trained sales staff. Thus, sales people are finally preaching for TiVo, not just the owners. It seems rather obvious that demand will increase with all of the increased sales pressure. So TiVo is producing units consistant with their previous sales numbers, and now that demand is rising, they can take steps to increase manufacturing. Remember that TiVo is now handling the unit manufacturing, instead of TWO independent companies. Relax. TiVo will see the sales numbers and increased demand, and will take steps to increase production to make sure that the orders are filled.
I love armchair CEOs, especially ones like scotty321. There are reasons for everything my friend. Please don't pretend to be the TiVo Distribution Oracle, no one here can stake that claim except TiVolutionary. Your claim to "no end in sight" is unsubstantiated. Now that TiVo is starting to see the types of sales numbers they really want, they will do everything in their power to get more units out to the public. Even if they end up striking a second manufacturing deal - it will happen. Have no fear. This is one of those companies that are becoming rare nowadays... they're known as companies that seem to have a good idea how to do business. There are VERY few decisions that TiVo has made that I've been against, far fewer than just about any other company I affiliate with. Things will be alright, just be patient.
Posted by: unixadm
quote:
Originally posted by controlio
I love armchair CEOs, especially ones like scotty321. There are reasons for everything my friend. Please don't pretend to be the TiVo Distribution Oracle, no one here can stake that claim except TiVolutionary. Your claim to "no end in sight" is unsubstantiated. Now that TiVo is starting to see the types of sales numbers they really want, they will do everything in their power to get more units out to the public. Even if they end up striking a second manufacturing deal - it will happen. Have no fear. This is one of those companies that are becoming rare nowadays... they're known as companies that seem to have a good idea how to do business. There are VERY few decisions that TiVo has made that I've been against, far fewer than just about any other company I affiliate with. Things will be alright, just be patient.
Controlio,
I am an AVID TiVo user and have preached TiVo to everyone...I have "sold" dozens of them to friends and family....BUT
I don't pull the wool over my eyes when looking at their marketing....it IS horrible. Most people I know have heard the name "TiVo" and know it is something to record TV shows with, but that is about it. Everyone that I know that have one (or more than one), have gotten it after seeing mine in action, or listening me talk about the great features.
Now, I talk about it, but when people want to buy it, they can't get it....well, guess what...that is HORRIBLE marketing. They were able to get their name out there, but failed to convey what it really does. When someone does find out what it does through word of mouth, or research, then they want one and can't get it.
I understand that TiVo is cash strapped and there are a lot of things behind the scenes that we may not see, but bottom line is that they need to convey to people what it is (which is starting to happen more via word of mouth and press) AND they need to have them available EASILY at a good price.
They haven't done that, so, IMO, they have failed at this point as far as marketing is concerned.
If you want to wear your TiVo Colored glasses and think that they are the best company in the world, and cannot make a business mistake, then go ahead and keep fooling yourself. The fact of the matter is that if they don't start getting boxes on the shelves in the stores and enough marketing going to make people realize that they really do need this product, then they are going to have a very hard time keeping afloat.
Posted by: lew
Controlio, Look at the DTivo's situation: virtually impossible to buy, no indication of doing an extra final production run of the current models and no solid information as to when the Series II DTivo's will be out. That is a major mistake. I agree with Unixadmin, we don't know what's behind the scenes, I wonder if the pending merger with Echostar has Tivo concerned (the Dish recorder has a much greater market penatration and it's possible the intent is to work on improving the PVR with the greater number of sales). I can't seek Tivo, UTV and Dishplayer all surviving and right now DTivo is the only one of the 3 that you can't buy.
History has many examples in which the superior product didn't prevail.
Posted by: Smoove B
quote:
Originally posted by scotty321
Let me explain something to TiVolutionary and the people at TiVo Inc.:
It doesn't make one damn bit of difference how good your product is, if your distribution SUCKS.
How so? I ordered a series 2 on Thursday from TiVo and it shipped Friday.
Is this unusual?
I bought one of the first Sony units to come off the line when they came out and it was much more of a hassle than this...
Smoove out.
Posted by: MichaelK
quote:
Originally posted by lew
Controlio, Look at the DTivo's situation: virtually impossible to buy, no indication of doing an extra final production run of the current models and no solid information as to when the Series II DTivo's will be out. That is a major mistake. I agree with Unixadmin, we don't know what's behind the scenes, I wonder if the pending merger with Echostar has Tivo concerned (the Dish recorder has a much greater market penatration and it's possible the intent is to work on improving the PVR with the greater number of sales). I can't seek Tivo, UTV and Dishplayer all surviving and right now DTivo is the only one of the 3 that you can't buy.
History has many examples in which the superior product didn't prevail.
First of see controlio's very wise observation in the ecostar market leader thread- they dont have more boxes in use, they just built more.
quote:
I don't pull the wool over my eyes when looking at their marketing....it IS horrible. Most people I know have heard the name "TiVo" and know it is something to record TV shows with, but that is about it. Everyone that I know that have one (or more than one), have gotten it after seeing mine in action, or listening me talk about the great features.
unixadm
My friend- maybe their distribution sucks- and thats another issue- but their marketing according to you is PERFECT.
Most everyone knows the Tivo brand (similiar to jeep, jello, elevator, etc. it is close to becoming a generic term)- even though their is only a tiny percentage of the population that owns one.
Besides this 'name recognition' that they have accomplished, now their 'selling' is out pacing their distribution. How is that poor marketing?
Maybe poor production, distibution, whatever, but not poor marketing.
As to the poor distribution thing- I think controlio makes valid points- switching to the new paradyme without subsidies was wise. I think they fouled up a bit during the changover, but from what I see they annoncued a deal weeks ago to get boxes to best buy before May 1. THey beat that deadline and got Best buy the boxes by than. Sure many (maybe most) stores are sold out (still dont see that as a bad thing) but it appears if you ask around you can find them or get some asssurances that soon they will be in stock- far different than the series 1 debacle.
Anyhow- my crystal ball is out for repair, so i'm going to wait and see what happens in a few months if they are perpetually behind demand or not. (and maybe they will be- maybe they only make 100,000 a month and that's not enough? Would that be the 'end of the world'?)
Now- who's taking the orders for the ponies?
Posted by: SR712
quote:
Originally posted by controlio
With Series 2, the fab is finally profitable. They did the smart thing, and signed a contract with Best Buy that involved good product placement AND trained sales staff.
Trained Sales Staff??? I guess you've never been to a Best Buy. HaHa :D
Posted by: Doug Schiller
No, but it is unusual for Ma and Pa Six Pack to walk into Best Buy and Circuit City and see empty shelves under TiVo demo units.
I thought May 1st was going to bring a slew of product? Where is it?
I snagged one, but I felt I lucked out.
My feelings mirror unixadm comments. I hope they take some of the cash from jacking up their monthly rates and hire a marketing department.
Doug
Posted by: MichaelK
quote:
Originally posted by Doug Schiller
No, but it is unusual for Ma and Pa Six Pack to walk into Best Buy and Circuit City and see empty shelves under TiVo demo units.
I thought May 1st was going to bring a slew of product? Where is it?
I snagged one, but I felt I lucked out.
My feelings mirror unixadm comments. I hope they take some of the cash from jacking up their monthly rates and hire a marketing department.
Doug
you guys are cracking me up!
Really- i can hardly type!
[sarcasm]
They are selling out and you folks think its marketing's fault? I'd hate to work at a company you guys ran.
"Gee Mr. Smith your sales team has managed to increase our sales by 200%. Now we're sold out of product. What do you have to say for yourself? YOUR FIRED> Now let that be a lesson to you all- dont sell so much- let hose boxes sit on the shelves would ya?!?!"
Seriously- maybe the production or distrubution or purchasing department (whover is resonsible to get the damn things to the stores) is totally screwed up, but the marketing guys didnt drop this ball.
THey must be reading this thread rolling on the floor of RB's office. "crap you jerks sold too many again- now how do we explain to the boss that our product is close to being the kleenex of PVR's and we're selling boxes faster than we can make them. Darn we stuck"
[/sarcasm]
Posted by: HTH
I went to the Best Buy here and they had three 60hr Series2 in boxes on the shelf and one display model.
Posted by: boywaja
Being sold out of tivos is only a good thing if there was ever a large quantity of tivos in stock. It seems like each best buy got maybe two Tivos. One was put on display and the other was sold to individuals in this forum who already owned a series one. That isn't exactly a huge accomplishment, or indicative of any huge demand for Tivos
Sooner or later we'll hear sales figures. My guess is TiVo will be doing better than ever and the armchair ceos will look foolish yet again.
rog
Posted by: phone1
quote:
Originally posted by Philosofy
I wanted a pony. But they were out of stock. The demand must not be very good for ponies now. :(
I want a Pony II!
Posted by: Mereo
I got my Series 2 TiVo last week from the Best Buy here in Arlington, Texas. I asked the sales guy if they had any Series 2 TiVo's in stock and he said they didn't - and that they weren't carrying a stock of them, because they sold out too fast.
Instead, you pay for the unit, they enter a bogus serial number to get the transaction to go through, they put your name on one of the 2 Series 2 TiVo's they get each Friday night on their weekly shipment from the warehouse. So I went up there last Tuesday, paid for it, got a receipt and a pick-up slip, and then Saturday morning I went and they processed a "return" on the phantom TiVo/serial number they used to get the transaction to go through and then exchanged it for the real one.
He also said that every other Best Buy in the Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex was having to do that with their Series 2 TiVos because of how fast they were selling out and how fiercly people would fight for them.
His sales manager had told him that the Series 2 was selling so well, production wasn't keeping up with demand, and that this situation was occuring in basically every major market.
That's just what I've heard/experienced.
2 TiVos per store, per week. There's about 15 Best Buy locations in/around the Metroplex, so that's 30 TiVos a week for one of the larger markets, plus online sales. That's an incredibly small level of production, it seems, unless they're selling almost all the units online. I wonder why they have such a low level of production...maybe they were not expecting people to clamor for it like they have been?
Oh, and some people posted info about bestbuy.com - in my experience, the people are bestbuy.com are fairly clueless when it comes to the operations of the Best Buy stores, etc, so take anything they say with a grain or two of salt.
Posted by: dmdeane
quote:
Originally posted by bigray327
The sky is falling.
The sky is falling on my pony.
Posted by: mtchamp
What has just been proved by the Best Buy Series2 sell out is the success of TiVo's marketing. Now that marketing is a lesser worry, then we'll see if TiVo can lick this production problem. If within a few weeks TiVo can't fix this problem , and I bet production was already increased a week ago, then we can complain.
Posted by: smak
Um, let me see if i get this straight.
For what it seems some people are saying, Best Buy said to Tivo.
"Yah, we'll take 50 per store" and Tivo said "No, we would like to only give you 2. We have the facilities to make you 50, but we just would rather give you 2 because we're that dumb".
You do realize that Tivo can't send Best Buy more than they want right? I don't think the deal was based on, tivo cramming every possible unit out to best buy, no matter how many units best buy wanted....
First, whatever Best Buy sales morons say can not be trusted.
Second, what if Best Buy screwed up, what if they have a bunch of them at a warehouse that didn't get shipped out. What if Tivo wanted them to take 10 per store, and Best Buy said no, we'll take 2-3 for now....
If you can go and order it from tivo's website with no problem, yet best buy doesn't have them, how can you jump the enormous gun and say it's all a tivo distribution problem.
Who knows where the problem lies, maybe they both decided on 2-3 per store, and both were wrong....Dems da breaks, now they should get things rolling, and in the next few weeks get some more units out.
-smak-
Posted by: controlio
God, this thread went EVERYWHERE while I was at work. I'll hit one key post, and if I'm awake a little later (after watching a little WWE... god I think that sounds moronic considering WWF is a huge brand name) I'll tie up any loose ends.
quote:
Originally posted by unixadm
I don't pull the wool over my eyes when looking at their marketing....it IS horrible. Most people I know have heard the name "TiVo" and know it is something to record TV shows with, but that is about it.
I don't dispute this. What I was talking about was production, not marketing. I think the TiVo is horribly marketed (hence commercials). That being said, the marketing money that has been spent to establish a brand name has had an enormous impact. Everyone equates a PVR as a TiVo, just like most PVRs tend to have "TiVo-like functions" when you hear people talk about them. Everyone knows the word TiVo, and because of this people are interested enough that if they see one at a Best Buy and a salesman is pimping them properly, they'll walk out with one. So don't confuse what I said... I agree with your marketing comment as far as commercials and functionality advertising. But they have brand name recognition, and they did a great thing when they made the deal with Best Buy. There's a lot of reasons for this that I won't go into for brevity.
Posted by: Leon WIlkinson
The problem I think is Best Buy did not order enough, I bet we will see at least a 300% more TiVos at best buy, next month.
Posted by: controlio
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelK
"Gee Mr. Smith your sales team has managed to increase our sales by 200%. Now we're sold out of product. What do you have to say for yourself? YOUR FIRED>
LOL, diamond in the rough posting. I love it. :) Let's face facts. TiVo is a high-priced item for Best Buy. There is no reason every Best Buy should stock 15 of these units at a time, because on any given day you wouldn't expect to move 4 units considering they're pricey items. A burn rate of one unit every two days is realistic, two in two days is fairly optomistic. The thing is, there has been a backlog of demand since Philips and Sony have ceased their Series I production, and those units dried up. So this sort of thing is expected - there is a high demand right now, and thus I wouldn't be surprised to see stores sold out. It doesn't necessarilly equate to a supply problem, just an over-abundance of built-up demand.
The fact that they ARE selling out is a great thing. They can't keep up distribution to match the demand. Don't take this to mean that there is a TiVo shortage, since as has been reported over and over, you can get one shipped next-day from the TiVo website. (Yeah yeah I know, extended warranty, ease of return, I know all the reasons to buy at a B+M, just realize that they exist and are avaialable from alternate sources.)
Also, in regards to lew's Series II DTiVo comment, it will be a while, it's no surprise they aren't even talking about it yet. The DTiVo fab and the SA II fabs are very similar. There are some fundamental technical differences which I won't dive into, but let's put it this way. The only thing you will be missing from the DTiVos will be USB support, which is moot. You can't eliminate the phone line, since DTV requires phone calls for purchases, and guide data doesn't come from the phone line on a DTiVo. So until TiVo software includes digital image support and the Jellyvision features that are planned, there is NOTHING to be gained from a Series II DTiVo. There is no reason to even think about making such a device at this point, since it won't do anything more than a regular DTiVo.
Posted by: LoadStar
quote:
Originally posted by controlio
Let me explain a little something to you. In the marketing world, selling out of a product is what's known as a Good Thing(tm). It means demand exceeds supply, and it means that you can produce the product at 100% capacity without major fear of excess or stale product. This is what we want!!!
Marketing might like it, and sales might love it, but in all other aspects, it's a Bad Thing (TM). This is what is known as a Stock Out.
It means that there is not enough supply to meet demand, and while it might seem that this is a good thing, that your product is selling, what it also means is that your potential customers can't get your product. While some of them might be patient and wait until new stock is available, others will either change their mind and not make a purchase, or will purchase the next best alternative, whatever that might be. In either case, a stock out means a lost sale - it may become a sale later on, but at that point, it's considered lost.
Supply Chain Management says that you want to balance product in the distribution channels and demand for the product. You don't want to produce too much - you might have product laying around that you can't get rid of at full retail cost, and you may have to take discounts on the product to clear the channels. On the other hand, you also don't want to run the channels down to zero, either - people won't be able to get your product, and they won't be very happy.
Posted by: feldon23
TiVo, Inc. is doing to the TiVo what Commodore did to the Amiga.
Great product that nobody knows what it does or why they should buy one, nobody knows where to buy, and nobody CAN buy because they didn't make enough or tell the retail salespeople anything.
For the next 4-6 months no DirecTiVos will be available, and apparently, there are no plans to provide enough TiVo Series 2 to the retail market to meet demand. So sounds like nothing has changed since November. It took TiVo forever to get a desiring public, and now the desiring public can't buy.
Posted by: arjay
When ReplayTV gets its 4500's out I'll bet TiVo's ass'll get mooning, er, moving!
Posted by: controlio
Loadstar: Read my post right above yours, second paragraph. TiVo Series I units have stopped production, and there has been a month or so layover between Series I and II availability. The selling out is nothing but the pent up demand when the boxes weren't available for a month or so. There's nothing inherently bad with this situation - the only negative is that TiVo isn't selling as many as they COULD BE. Not a major crisis. Not ideal, but not a major crisis.
feldon23, you are one of the legions of people that swear up and down that TiVos aren't available. They have been available through TiVo's website during the ENTIRE transition, even for the month that Series I units finally sold out, and before Series II was released to Best Buy retail outlets. Now, they are available in every Best Buy store. If the stores are sold out, you can get them through two independent online retailers. People have reported 24hr shipping from these retailers. Where's the shortage?
To me, a shortage is a lack of available options to purchase a product. There are plenty of ways to get a new TiVo unit. Though a Best Buy store... failing that, through bestbuy.com, failing that, through tivo.com. That equals three major outlets. All of the cries of unavailability are unwarranted. TiVos are available three ways... people just don't want to use two of the ways.
Regardless, like I said, the situation will work itself out over the next month or two. You're seeing the result of a month of sparse in-store availability. That demand will die down soon. Please read the following, as it's very important and it will probably come up in these forums another 150 times. **Empty shelves do not spell doom!** Like I said above, all it means is that TiVo isn't selling as many units as they possibly could. Units are making their way to the stores, being displayed, and being sold. Sales are not at a standstill, they are thriving. They're just not going as fast as they could be. Don't worry, TiVo is doing fine.
Ok, everyone now, deep breath. :D
Posted by: jmoak
quote:
Originally posted by arjay
When ReplayTV gets its 4500's out I'll bet TiVo's ass'll get mooning, er, moving!
They better!!
If Replay can get the product to the retail shelf faster than Tivo then they stand to sell a buttload of units very quickly.
It would be extremely easy for a circuit city clerk to sell a replay 4500 to someone who just came from a "wonderfully trained" bust buy drone's explanation of Tivo, which their out of stock of, of course.
As far as buying online from Tivo, you bet their filling orders! Tivo is manufacturing these buggers themselves, so their proud to put the online buyer before their best buy shipments! They get all the retail profit! I imagine, given the financial state of Tivo, as reported in popular hearsay, their building these buggers as fast as they can!
Can Replay get the product to market before Tivo can satisfy the existing demand?
Will Replay sell the units in the retail market? ... or will they depend on online orders, as with the 4000 series?
... only their hairdressers know for sure.......
;)
Opinions expressed in this post are for speculation and entertainment purposes only. These posts are not meant to foster a belief in the supernatural or paranormal. Please take as directed. For topical use only.
Posted by: lew
controlio
wrotee
quote:
NOTHING to be gained from a Series II DTiVo. There is no reason to even think about making such a device at this point, since it won't do anything more than a regular DTiVo.
I don't know if you work for Tivo but the major reason for my suggesting making a Series II DTiVo ASAP is (as everyone knows) regular DTiVo's are basically unavailable. That said, I suggested as an alternative trying to get an extra production run of the current series. I assume the Series II DTiVo will have a faster processor.
It's not good to have a 6 month plus window with no product.
BTW Bestbuy.com is not currently taking orders for series II, check their website.
Posted by: Jabberer
quote:
Originally posted by arjay
When ReplayTV gets its 4500's out I'll bet TiVo's ass'll get mooning, er, moving!
Ya, and when the Jackass II comes out, they won't be able to sell ponies either! ;)
Posted by: Doug Schiller
quote:
THey must be reading this thread rolling on the floor of RB's office. "crap you jerks sold too many again- now how do we explain to the boss that our product is close to being the kleenex of PVR's and we're selling boxes faster than we can make them. Darn we stuck"
Yea, I'm sure they are all slapping themselves on the back as potentail customers stare at empty store shelves for 6 months. I can hardly type either. It is so hilarious to make an exclusive deal and then not supply product. Ask yourself this (with sarcasm off or on) is the product unavailable because it is selling so well or did they not meet production due to, umm, let me see, lets just say, lack of capital???
Believe it or not, there is a difference.
Doug
Posted by: Otto
quote:
Originally posted by controlio
Also, in regards to lew's Series II DTiVo comment, it will be a while, it's no surprise they aren't even talking about it yet. The DTiVo fab and the SA II fabs are very similar. There are some fundamental technical differences which I won't dive into, but let's put it this way. The only thing you will be missing from the DTiVos will be USB support, which is moot. You can't eliminate the phone line, since DTV requires phone calls for purchases, and guide data doesn't come from the phone line on a DTiVo. So until TiVo software includes digital image support and the Jellyvision features that are planned, there is NOTHING to be gained from a Series II DTiVo. There is no reason to even think about making such a device at this point, since it won't do anything more than a regular DTiVo.
Heh. Don't be so sharp that you cut yourself. ;)
The main reason that they ARE working on a S2Combo box is simple: cost. The Series 1 boxes are, and always have been, made at a loss. The hardware costs more than they can sell it for. The whole point of the S2 platform is to make the device profitable or break even. And they did just that, the S2 Standalones are basically sold at cost. The extra advantages like more memory, higher speed, and USB ports are just additions that they probably got to throw in for next to nothing, but did so because it enables new revenue opportunities via third party development.
Make no mistake, the reason S1 Combos are out of the pipeline is because they're not making them anymore because it was costing too much. They're pushing the S2 Combo's development so they can fill the gap.
I personally expect them to be available by the end of summer, but that may be unrealistic so I wouldn't actually bet money on it or anything.
Posted by: MichaelK
quote:
Originally posted by Doug Schiller
Yea, I'm sure they are all slapping themselves on the back as potentail customers stare at empty store shelves for 6 months. I can hardly type either. It is so hilarious to make an exclusive deal and then not supply product. Ask yourself this (with sarcasm off or on) is the product unavailable because it is selling so well or did they not meet production due to, umm, let me see, lets just say, lack of capital???
Believe it or not, there is a difference.
Doug
thats EXACTLY MY POINT! THeres's a big difference. In no way shape or form is it marketings fault. It might hurt the marketing but everyone was saying TIVO was doing a terrible job marketing. The production or distribution end MAY be at fault but its not marketing. If you read back to the beginning several posters said TIVO had terrible marketing. My point is the marketing folks are doing just fine (or at least you cant fault them in this case), that the production/distribution end might have a problem.
Personally I think that if Tivo survives long enough to reap the rewards, than marketing did a grand job of producing brand awareness.
Posted by: interactiveTV
quote:
Originally posted by MichaelK
My point is the marketing folks are doing just fine (or at least you can't fault them in this case), that the production/distribution end might have a problem.
Personally I think that if Tivo survives long enough to reap the rewards, than marketing did a grand job of producing brand awareness.
They sure did. And in 1999 and 2000, the formative years, they spent $125 million doing it while R&D had $35 million.
Now, I'm not going to argue about the "value" of all those dollars spent, I'm just pointing out, as others have (including Tivo itself) that perhaps that massive expense was a little early. (BTW: this isn't "related parties" dollars but "sales and marketing"). The figures are below (and rounded).
Personally, I don't see $125 million of value from those two years but that's me and that's my story and I'm sticking to it. Second guessing now is pretty irrelevant anyway. Enjoy the numbers.
1999
R&D: $10m
Marketing: $24m
2000
R&D: $24m
Marketing: $102m
2001
R&D: $26m
Marketing: $29m
Posted by: MichaelK
In a word- yup
WHile i think it's a good thing to be jeep, jello or kleenex, your point about a little too much too soon might be prophetic- hence the 'if they survive'.
But i guess if they do survive, than we'll all be saying how it was genius.
Posted by: stace
quote:
The only thing you will be missing from the DTiVos will be USB support, which is moot.
A post in the DTiVo forum with an excerpt from RB on IRC seems to indicate this is not so. DTiVo Series II will indeed have USB.
Posted by: phone1
quote:
Originally posted by rclams
While chit-chatting with the TV department sales dude during checkout, I mentioned how hard it was to find these. He said "yeah, and soon they won't even be available at all".
Maybe we'll all think twice next time before rushing out to start a gloom and doom thread based on what some slack-jawed Best Buys "sales dude" had to say. :mad:
Posted by: controlio
lew: I actually don't work for the company, though from some of these threads I think I should apply for TiVo's marketing or promotional department. I will say that I haven't been paying attention to DTiVo availability though... so you may be right as far as the supply drying up, for the reason Otto stated above.
Otto: I guess I stand corrected. I thought that I recalled somewhere reading that the DTiVo fab was either break-even or very close to break-even, since it didn't require a lot of the circutry that the SAs need. Maybe it didn't require the heavy subsidies that the other units did? I think I might be confusing postings, I'm gonna have to go dig through the archives to see where I got all mixed up.
Posted by: susanandmark
First off, I think that TiVo is neither brilliant, nor stupid in its marketing (very bad commercials don't get out what TiVo really does for you--but I don't know how I'd necessarily do it any better) and/or distribution, but if you forced me to choose one of the aforementioned options, I'd probably have to lean towards the latter. I agree that severe product shortages are, for the most part, a bad thing for any new company, no matter what the reason you can't find the units are. We're not talking about Nintendo, Cabbage Patch Kids or Tickle Me Elmo where there is an overwhelming demand that EVERYONE in the world knows about and people are lining up to get the things. (And, in all of those examples, after a brief market frenzy, leading to a shortage, shelves were packed with products within a few months.)
I received my TiVo as a Christmas gift from my husband when they first came out. He bought it at Best Buy for me based on the commercials we'd seen, and the fact that I love TV/tech gadgets. But, the REAL selling point was the fact that we'd played a bit with a demo unit when we were in Best Buy around Thanksgiving and I said, "this is cool and would make a good Christmas gift for me" If I hadn't gotten hands on with TiVo, even just for a minute or two, I wouldn't have told him I'd wanted one (not just based on the commercials anyway) and he wouldn't have known where to get one. I think that's a pretty typical Joe Blow kind of purchase scenario. If Best Buy hadn't had the unit, he would have got me something else and I may never have known what TiVo was or what it could really do for me. I certainly wouldn't have later been swept up in advertising frenzy and the fact that everyone was getting one because, frankly, after the big initial push, all the TiVo hype kind of died down. (This forum doesn't count, because it's made up of 99.99999% current TiVo users. I honestly don't think anyone comes here to "discover" TiVo.)
TiVo is a luxury item. It's a toy, essentially. Sure, for those of us that have it, it seems hard like a can't-live-without-it appliance, but for the uninitiated it's really unnecessary. I've said this many times before, but I'm a tech gadget freak and even I delayed hooking up my first unit for several weeks because I just didn't get how cool it would be. (I only put it together one Saturday because my husband was giving me the pouty "you hate my present" guilt trip.) Now, once it was up and running and I really UNDERSTOOD what it did, I was very excited about it. But the box and pre-product promo didn't really rev me up, so I delayed the entire re-configuring of my intricate video system as "too much of a hassle."
Most people don't get what TiVo can do for them and, because of that, unless they get interested enough to throw down the cash one day while shopping they probably won't get one. Basically, if they can't find it, they won't get it. There are those who have been "pre-converted" by friends, relatives or lots of research--but I think those are the minority, the ones that will hunt a TiVo down to buy it. MOST people assume that if it's not on the shelf and they can't play with it first, it isn't worth having.
We've been talking about getting a real home theatre installed in our house--drop down screen, HDTV projector ... the works. But when the guy from the most exclusive home theatre place in Oklahoma City, which outfits all the million-dollar plus homes, came out to give us an estimate he didn't really know what TiVo was ("Yeah, I've heard of that") or why we'd want it in our system. This goes to home theatre seminars and conventions, but he didn't know what the heck TiVo did, or why we insisted it would be necessary with any set-up we eventually installed. This guy wanted to sell us satellite radio--a very new technology--and plenty of other stuff, including an Audio DVD system (things he said were "essential" for the home theatre experience), but he couldn't see where TiVo would fit in. This is someone who builds systems for lots of folks with money to burn, and they get whatever he tells them to, so why isn't TiVo in bed with this group? The high-end crowd is what TiVo wants and they're not getting them. (Watch any home theatre show or "fantasy" home tour on TV and, no matter how expensive the set-up--and I'm talking in the hundreds of thousands of dollars--try and spot a TiVo in any of them. If you do see one, I'll be surprised. Even the young, hip MTV Cribs kind of tours that showcase and linger on every aspect of this or that rock star's state-of-the-art system don't have TiVos, even though every one is using DirecTV.)
Posted by: phone1
quote:
Originally posted by susanandmark
This is someone who builds systems for lots of folks with money to burn, and they get whatever he tells them to, so why isn't TiVo in bed with this group? The high-end crowd is what TiVo wants and they're not getting them.
Really? And all along I thought they were after us joe six-pack, AOL types. :D
Seriously, I don't see TiVo at all as a niche market, boutique product. A broad market spectrum will enable them to sell advertising and viewing data. The snobby, high end types (anybody on this forum excluded, of course) can never create the kind of demand that TiVo needs. And yes, marketing does need to improve.
BTW, there is no excuse for someone in the high end home theater business not knowing about TiVo. He may knock it, or downplay it but if he doesn't know about DVR's, he's just plain incompetent. It's also pure snobbery not to "see where TiVo would fit in..." It's your system after all.
I hope you found someone more knowledgeable and customer oriented to deal with.
Posted by: scotty321
quote:
Originally posted by phone1
Really? And all along I thought they were after us joe six-pack, AOL types. :D
Michael Ramsay said in a recent interview that internally at TiVo Inc., they often compare themselves to America Online.
Well let me point this out to Mr. Ramsay: you're no America Online.
When AOL started gaining subscribers, there were AOL floppy disks EVERYWHERE. It was impossible to ignore America Online, even if you didn't know what a modem or an online service was.
TiVo is acting the complete OPPOSITE of AOL: People don't know that the product exists, people don't understand what the product does, people have to actively SEARCH for the product, and then after spending all their free time searching for the product... they can't even buy the damn product!
I went to 2 local Best Buys here in Los Angeles, and there were ZERO TIVOS on the shelves. Not even an empty shelf space with a big TiVo sign, either. So let me rephrase this properly: There was NO TIVO PRESENCE at Best Buy AT ALL. It's bad enough that TiVo's only B&M store is Best Buy... but then their one & only store has absolutely ZERO TiVo presence in it??
Anyone that thinks this is even remotely close to being a good situation does not understand product sales.
I ask once again -- what in G-d's name are Michael Ramsay and the rest of the employees at TiVo doing all day long?? Do they just sit there and send instant messages to each other all day long... using AOL's instant messenger service, I bet??
If someone could please explain to me what happens up there at TiVo HQ in Alviso, CA all day long, perhaps I could understand why nothing ever gets done on the distribution side of TiVo.
Posted by: Smiles
AOL floppies and CDs were (are) everywhere. Maybe TiVo should spam the world with demo DVDs or VCDs or something. Now that would be AOLish.
Of course, AOL's marketing materials actually subscribed you to the service ... a DVD would still require you to do something to buy the product.
Given TiVo's ties to AOL, maybe they could even get a good deal on shipping these DVDs to all the Time Warner magazines, etc.
Posted by: phone1
Actually I was referencing comments on a thread on the Replay forum comparing TiVo owners to AOL members. (i.e. "lightweights") I guess Ramsey agrees with them.quote:
Originally posted by scotty321
If someone could please explain to me what happens up there at TiVo HQ in Alviso, CA all day long, perhaps I could understand why nothing ever gets done on the distribution side of TiVo.
I can't explain it, but you can watch it on this webcam.
Posted by: NFLnut
quote:
Originally posted by scotty321
If someone could please explain to me what happens up there at TiVo HQ in Alviso, CA all day long, perhaps I could understand why nothing ever gets done on the distribution side of TiVo.
The question should be asked of Sony .. not TiVo! If you will remember, TiVo manufactures NO products. They merely sell software and service. On the other hand, Sony just paid $14m for rights to the software.
How many times does this need to be said?! Your problem is with Sony .. not TiVo!
Posted by: interactiveTV
quote:
Originally posted by NFLnut
If you will remember, TiVo manufactures NO products. They merely sell software and service. On the other hand, Sony just paid $14m for rights to the software.
Is this accurate (not the Sony/Tivo piece)? Doesn't Tivo now manufacture its own boxes? By manufacture, Tivo subs it out (Dell doesn't make the components in its boxes either so nits can be picked or noses, your choice), but Tivo BRANDS the series2 as Tivo boxes (some are also badged as AT&T).
_ITV
Posted by: spartanstew
My head hurts
:confused:
Stew
Posted by: timf
quote:
Originally posted by NFLnut
The question should be asked of Sony .. not TiVo! If you will remember, TiVo manufactures NO products. They merely sell software and service. On the other hand, Sony just paid $14m for rights to the software.
How many times does this need to be said?! Your problem is with Sony .. not TiVo!
This used to be the case, but no longer is. TiVo is the sole entity responsible for the Series 2 hardware. They are in effect the manufacturer (and that's what it says in System Information), although the units are built by a contractor. The Sony products you are referring to are not out (and haven't even been announced) yet.
Posted by: David LM
It looks like some marketing lessons are needed. The major functions of marketing are:
1) Market Research includes determining the output
2) Consumer Analysis determine the target market
3) Product Planning includes product supply issues
4) Distribution Planning includes inventory management and working with manufacturing
5) Promotion Planning selling, advertising, promotion
6) Price Planning establishing a price
Marketing directs the resources of the firm towards satisfying demand. It bridges the gap between production and the consumer. Goods have to be produced to meet the wants of the consumer. It is the responsibility of marketing to establish a price and see that the product is distributed. It is necessary to match the product supply to the n eeds of the market.
Marketing research defines a market: what to produce, how to produce the goods, distribution of the goods from the manufacturer to the retailer, how to maintain production and sales, how much to produce and how much will be consumed in the short-run and long-run. I have to agree with Scotty and others that TiVo, Inc. has been woefully inadequate in almost all of the major functions of Marketing over the past three years. Of course, the one area they have done quite well in is Product Planning (except for UTV beating them with two tuners). Marketing research has been spotty. TiVo seems to know what to produce, but has fallen short when it comes to production and distribution issues. Especially bad is how the company has fared in determining how much to produce in both the short-run and long-run as the company seems to have no idea what demand is for their products. Last year and two years ago, sales were way short of projections and inventory remained on store shelves. Now this year, production seems to be short of demand. Go figure.
Promotion and Price planning have not been much better. I agree with the head of TiVo that $200 is the magic price point as evidenced by the way DirecTiVos flew off the shelves at a $100 price. DVD players, DBS systems did not go mainstream until they hit the magic price point. It is rumored that the Xbox and PS2 price will drop from $299 to $199 shortly. So why is the Series II priced at $399? I agree that many people now have heard of TiVo, but I still get the same strange looks from most people when I tell them I have it. The reaction I tend to get from others is a shrug of the shoulders or a so what as it is perceived as a luxury item for the pampered and spoiled that is not really needed. Consumer analysis has been spotty as well. I think TiVo has wavered over the past couple of years as to just who the target market is. I think they now realize that the product will not be going mainstream or Joe 6 Pack for some time, so the target market is more white collar, affluent, 25-50 year old males. Right now marketing seems to be producing a few units, throwing them up against a wall, and see what sells. Call me an armchair CEO, I do not care.
Posted by: susanandmark
quote:
Originally posted by NFLnut
How many times does this need to be said?! Your problem is with Sony .. not TiVo!
I won't go into the fact that what the above poster said before the part I quoted isn't true, since it's already been pointed out by others. But I will note, one more time, what is up with the "it's never TiVo's fault" attitude among its fans.
I enjoy TiVo too, but let's be realistic people. If the hard drives (made by someone else) on TiVo boxes fail, it's not the hard drive manufacturers, it's TiVos. If the modems (made by someone else) fail, that's TiVo's problem too. And, for the love of God, if TiVo machines can't be found on store shleves that is CERTAINLY TiVo's problem, whether they're making the boxes themselves or not. I mean (in a worst case scenario), who do you think is going to go out of busiiness via lack of interest in their product: Tiny upstart company TiVo or media electronics giant Sony?
Posted by: Otto
quote:
Originally posted by susanandmark
I enjoy TiVo too, but let's be realistic people. If the hard drives (made by someone else) on TiVo boxes fail, it's not the hard drive manufacturers, it's TiVos. If the modems (made by someone else) fail, that's TiVo's problem too.
If I tell you how to make a product, and give you software to put on that product, and then you go and make a product based on the information I give you, and you test it, and you sell it, and you get most of the money from it, then tell me, how is it my fault when the product breaks?
Posted by: interactiveTV
quote:
Originally posted by Otto
If I tell you how to make a product, and give you software to put on that product, and then you go and make a product based on the information I give you, and you test it, and you sell it, and you get most of the money from it, then tell me, how is it my fault when the product breaks?
Otto-
There are lots of ways...
Legal liability. Obviously, in your above scenario, if applied to an airplane (because it illustrates the point so nicely), I can probably ascribe liability to the company that "tells" some third party how to make the product (specifications for the rudder control software/chip or something), regardless of the testing done on those specifications, regardless of who manufactures the end product, regardless of who sells it.
The point here is that, actually, yes, it CAN be your (you say "my" above)fault, even with all that other stuff, and anyone who says otherwise is wrong. I'm not saying in this instance or in every instance, but it is a real possibility.
The thread here, as I follow it, had to do with Tivo distribution to which NFLNut mentioned that it isn't Tivo's deal. From a financial standpoint, as well as the Tivo badged boxes, that is all wrong.
You should also consider your concept of the "product" and perhaps your definition of "breaks."
Obviously, Tivo is a service, but it also a physical item (now sold and badged by Tivo but prior to this year, badged as Phillips or Sony). Something like a modem breaking may appear to be Sony's fault. But I can create a reasonable scenario where Tivo would share liability (specifications given were woefully inaccurate, etc).
This isn't as cut and dry as you seem to believe. Physical breakage of PARTS may be easier, but the "product" "breaking" is much more difficult to assign liability and, mostly, it will fall on Tivo as there is the on-going financial relationship. The product is much more than software or a guide but a specified and authorized hadrware platform, manufactured to Tivo specifications to work ONLY with the Tivo service. We're not talking about a PC that can run AOL or Windows or Linux or ...
So, what's the Tivo product?
_ITV
Posted by: 12monkeys
quote:
Originally posted by interactiveTV
This isn't as cut and dry as you seem to believe. Physical breakage of PARTS may be easier, but the "product" "breaking" is much more difficult to assign liability and, mostly, it will fall on Tivo as there is the on-going financial relationship. The product is much more than software or a guide but a specified and authorized hadrware platform, manufactured to Tivo specifications to work ONLY with the Tivo service. We're not talking about a PC that can run AOL or Windows or Linux or ...
A perfect example of how complicated this can become is the whole Ford Explorer tires. Who is to blame? Ford or Firestone? What is comes down to is probably both.
That is an example of a bad situation that TiVo could get into.
Posted by: interactiveTV
quote:
Originally posted by 12monkeys
A perfect example of how complicated this can become is the whole Ford Explorer tires. Who is to blame? Ford or Firestone? What is comes down to is probably both.
That is an example of a bad situation that TiVo could get into.
Great example.
tivo won't ever kill anyone though (not that wrongful death means all that much money...more if you just maim someone for life, unfortunately). Yes, folks have threatened to kill without tivo or on tivo's behalf and my Tivo flipped over and landed on my leg when I pulled the AV cabinet a little much and it tilted (PVR Rollovers -- the next CU expose!), but I'm OK. It wasn't much worse than tumbling from a Segway going 10 MPH and hitting a curb :) On second thought, maybe I should have waited for the stretcher to come from Atlanta.
_ITV
Posted by: susanandmark
quote:
Originally posted by Otto
If I tell you how to make a product, and give you software to put on that product, and then you go and make a product based on the information I give you, and you test it, and you sell it, and you get most of the money from it, then tell me, how is it my fault when the product breaks?
Well, the fact that TiVo's name is on the box, certainly is a big part of it. My refrigerator is made up of a whole lot of products, many of them probably not manufactured by Kitchen Aid, the name on the outside of the box, but if it breaks, who am I going to call?
If you buy a computer from Gateway and the RAM is bad, or the hard drive fails, then Gateway is the company you go back to to fix it, not the manufacturer of the motherboard.
Also, TiVo has an agreement with Philips, who manufactured most of their early boxes, to take care of all customer service, warranty and repair issues.
In the end, to survive TiVo NEEDS to provide service for their product, end of story, not pass the blame around, throw up their hands and say "Hey, it's not our fault, blame DirecTV, Sony, Philips, Quantam, etc. etc."
If your DirecTV receiver goes bad--as my in-laws did--they called DirecTV (because, like most users of TiVo, they feel like their DirecTV system IS DirecTV), even though their box was made by RCA or Sony. DirecTV never said "why the hell are you calling us, we didn't make it," they just said we want you to remain a customer and we'll get a new receiver right out to you. Now, DirecTV isn't always a model of how customer service is done, but in that case they did the right thing. If it had been a big hassle and they had to buy a new receiver, my in-laws would have quit using DirecTV, just because it was too complicated.
Scientific Atlanta makes the cable boxes used by Cox in our area, but if your cable box goes bad, Cox doesn't tell you to call Scientific Atlanta. In terms of consumer relations and good old fashioned customer service, perception is reality. People perceive that their set-top or combo box IS a TiVo, therefore TiVo should take some responsibility for their product distribution system.
Posted by: susanandmark
quote:
Originally posted by phone1
Really? And all along I thought they were after us joe six-pack, AOL types. Seriously, I don't see TiVo at all as a niche market, boutique product. A broad market spectrum will enable them to sell advertising and viewing data. The snobby, high end types (anybody on this forum excluded, of course) can never create the kind of demand that TiVo needs. And yes, marketing does need to improve. BTW, there is no excuse for someone in the high end home theater business not knowing about TiVo. He may knock it, or downplay it but if he doesn't know about DVR's, he's just plain incompetent. It's also pure snobbery not to "see where TiVo would fit in..." It's your system after all. I hope you found someone more knowledgeable and customer oriented to deal with.
First off, as much as fans of the product wish otherwise, for now TiVo is DEFINITELY a niche market. Hopefully that will change, but right now that's where the company is at. And, while I agree that TiVo shouldn't focus exclusively on what you term the "snobby, high end" market, they are definitely in the demographic TiVo should be working hard to convert!
If TiVo compares themselves to AOL they are crazy for a couple of reasons. First off, America Online has an amazing market pentration that TiVo can only dream of. If they're talking about themselves in the sense that they want to be as ubquitious as AOL, then I guess that's a good thing, but I don't see it happening. AOL was simply a simple gateway to an existing technology--the Internet. TiVo is an entirely NEW technology in and of itself. They're much more equivilant to the development of the home VCR, PC, CD player or DVD--all products that Americans at one point didn't know they needed or wanted and are now de rigeour in most "average" households. (DVD is still making its presence known, but it's on the right track now.)
Secondly, as everyone who has been online for more than minute or two knows, AOL is one of the most reviled companies in history, so I don't think any company would want to paint themselves "in the AOL mold" for that very reason. They may be successful, but so was Hitler and no one says "We want to be the next Third Reich" (extreme example used to make a point--I'm not associating either AOL or TiVo with the Nazis).
Oh and, lastly, the home theatre person we spoke with (and, like I said, I don't think he's a god--overpriced and over-hyped is my opinion--but he's known as "the guy" around here and "anyone who is anyone," usually meaning people with more money than sense, uses him to create their system) did KNOW about TiVo, he just didn't see its usefulness. My point was that people that set up high-end systems should be going on and on about cool and cutting edge TiVo is (he was very high on the concept of audio DVD, something I feel is very useless) because once you convert the upper crust folks, that trickles down fast. Look at all the celeb TiVo fans and all the good, free press they provide the company. This is the same thing. Plus there's the "keep up with the Jones'" factor. I know plenty of folks who see those high-end home shows and say, "Hey, Michael Jordon has Viking appliances, I want Viking appliances, because if they're good enough for him, they're good enough for me."
Posted by: IJustLikeTivo
One thought on the AOL - TiVo comparison. Originally, AOL was an online community only for Macintosh and has grown to where they are now. Compare their online base today to where it was in the late 80's and you see what marketing can do. Tivo is at best 3 years old. They have lots of marketing ahead. They are pushing a new paradigm and that is never easy. Their branding is doing well, they have supply chain problems and they have the Tivo community. All in all, pretty good for a smallish company is a new currently Niche Market. Give em time.
IJLT
Posted by: DJRobX
quote:
This goes to home theatre seminars and conventions, but he didn't know what the heck TiVo did, or why we insisted it would be necessary with any set-up we eventually installed.
I would have thrown this guy out and demanded someone who knows real A/V equipment! :D
-- Rob
Posted by: dgh
quote:
Originally posted by IJustLikeTivo
One thought on the AOL - TiVo comparison. Originally, AOL was an online community only for Macintosh and has grown to where they are now.
They started out even earlier on Commodore 64s in 1985. The Macs were added in 1989.
Posted by: Hunter Green
Ooooh, I haven't thought about Q-Link in years!
Posted by: TreborPugly
Could it be that Tivo is matching their production rate to their service capacity? How would they fair if they sold units at 10 times the current rate, only to have their server farms overloaded so no one can update their program listings? There's an AOL comparison for you.
Treb
Posted by: Weezoh
Well, I was told that best buy (last week) that would be getting one (1) unit tonight and that it would be on the shelf tomorrow at open, go to store the next day, and not there as it didn't come in. Got told the same thing Last night, went today and it didn't come in either.
Back to the office, call TiVo on the phone and one is scheduled to ship today to my house. Grrr BestBuy. I don't think i've had a pleasant sales experience with them in the years they've been here.
Sorry just had to vent a wee bit. Now I can temper my disgustipation with the anticipation of having a tivo in my house tomorrow night. (and the trepidation of hooking everything into my already tight AV setup).
Posted by: bullitt
quote:
Originally posted by Philosofy
I wanted a pony. But they were out of stock. The demand must not be very good for ponies now. :(
" Nobody Buys Them Anymore 'cause they're always out of stock" :p
Posted by: brott
quote:
Originally posted by controlio
Let me explain a little something to you. In the marketing world, selling out of a product is what's known as a Good Thing(tm). It means demand exceeds supply, and it means that you can produce the product at 100% capacity without major fear of excess or stale product. This is what we want!!!
Seems to me that what you really want is ONE item left. This way, not only have you sold your entire stock (except for one item), but you KNOW that you have sold your entire stock. So, selling out of a product is nice, but I wouldn't say that it is a Good Thing - you've left money on the table!
The distribution system really does need work.
Posted by: Sir_whinealot
This thread reminds me of something that happened recently...I was going south on Interstate 75 In South Florida when I pulled into a rest stop to use the john.
The first stall was taken so I entered the next one. As I sat down a
voice spoke from the other stall: "Hi, how ya doin'?"
I am not the type to carry on a conversation in public toilets. Under
the circumstances, however, I mumbled an embarrassed reply. "Uh, not too
bad."
The other guy then said: "So, what are you doing?"
Talk about a question. Bizarre or not, I couldn't really remain silent.
So I chose a larger context and said, "Oh.....just heading south."
The voice next to me, noticeably nervous, said: "Listen, I'll call you
back. There's an idiot next to me who's answering all my questions."
So there you have it.
I think that clears up this whole..."there's a TiVo shortage thing." :D
~A duck's quack doesn't echo, and no one knows why.~
Posted by: Philosofy
Sir W, you crack me up!
Posted by: interactiveTV
http://news.com.com/2100-1040-904282.html?tag=fd_top
Posted by: phone1
Susan, you are soooo serious. The AOL crack was a reference to...oh, nevermind. :rolleyes:
High price and markup gets the attention of the home theater installers. Someone will eventually put a 300 hour TiVo (or the equivalent) in a nice rosewood case and sell it for $2-3k. Then they'll start talking it up!
Posted by: mtchamp
The end of the story. Best Buy admitted today that they ordered conservatively. They did not realize pent up demand would sell Series2 so quickly before they even began promoting them. The promotion was supposed to start Mother's Day. Most Best Buy stores are sold out and have a waiting list. They expect inventory problems to be resolved by early June. They further expect sales to be very good considering Series2 sold out even without a full fledged promotion campaign which they intend to do as soon as they get stocked up again. Tivo can still supply Series2 from their own website, tivo.com, while Best Buy ramps up its inventory and adjust it's Series2 marketing strategy.
Posted by: JoeTiVo
quote:
Originally posted by mtchamp
Best Buy admitted today that they ordered conservatively.
You wouldn't happen to have a link to some place where they admitted this publicly, would you?
Posted by: DavidS
quote:
Originally posted by JoeTiVo
You wouldn't happen to have a link to some place where they admitted this publicly, would you?
It's in the news story linked three posts up.
Posted by: nextguard2
quote:
Originally posted by Otto
If I tell you how to make a product, and give you software to put on that product, and then you go and make a product based on the information I give you, and you test it, and you sell it, and you get most of the money from it, then tell me, how is it my fault when the product breaks?
You know trhe class action suit did not get thrown out, not that it means the suit will be ultimately successful.
The suit claims that Tivo knew or should have known about the modem defect and therefore misrepresented or failed to disclose appropriate information to customers and thus are guilty of fraudulant concealment.
It will interesting to see what happens... I know I personally feel mistreated. But not mistreated enough to stop using Tivo.
Posted by: JoeTiVo
quote:
Originally posted by DavidS
It's in the news story linked three posts up.
Whoops... Guess I somehow overlooked that. Thanks for the pointer.
Posted by: feldon23
TiVo is succeeding in SPITE of their marketing and exclusive deal with Worst Buy. :)
Posted by: pv
Why did you respond to a 3 month old thread? PV
Posted by: jfelbab
quote:
Originally posted by controlio
Let me explain a little something to you. In the marketing world, selling out of a product is what's known as a Good Thing(tm). It means demand exceeds supply, and it means that you can produce the product at 100% capacity without major fear of excess or stale product. This is what we want!!!
I suppose this is a good thing as opposed to people not wanting the product at all but tell me how you see sending customers away with cash in hand is also a good thing. TiVo's have been in near zero supply for months. Ideally, it would be a good thing to have enough manufacturing to quickly meet demand. This might just keep the customer from buying the competitors product. It's never a good thing to leave money on the table. (Marketing 101)
As an aside I see TiVo is up over 11% today. This is a Good Thing(tm) :D
Posted by: georgecortes
quote:
While chit-chatting with... the sales dude... he said....
If you're going to depend on sales people for information, sooner or later you're going to get screwed...
Nothing beats getting plenty informed well ahead of time, so by the time you get to the store you know more than the salesmen do... which isn't very hard to do...
George
Posted by: jfelbab
quote:
Originally posted by georgecortes
If you're going to depend on sales people for information, sooner or later you're going to get screwed...
Nothing beats getting plenty informed well ahead of time, so by the time you get to the store you know more than the salesmen do... which isn't very hard to do...
George
I especially enjoy going into these situations and playing dumb for a while. Makes the wife uncomfortable but I like to know who I'm dealing with.:D
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