TiVo Community Forums Archives - "everything but sports at basic"

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"everything but sports at basic"
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Posted by: jasoncarr

Ok, my intention here is talk about non-sports things that tend to give the encoder a hard time, not to start a holy war about what quality levels are acceptable or unacceptable.

Sports are usually given as the exception to a relatively low recording rate, because the fast-moving images cause artifacts.

Here are some others I have noticed:

*music videos - they invented the rapid/flash edit
*shows with rapid changes in lighting level (camera flashes, lightning, etc). MTV Fear, horror, paparazzi shows.
*shows in which there is a fast-forward effect in the show itself
*shows that use shouldercam/shakycam like the Naked Chef cooking show. That one was a real surprise. I didn't realize how much the camera [bobbed] and swayed until I saw all the digital artifacts...

Posted by: willmw

Maybe I'm not the norm, but the occasional pixelation/artifact doesn't bother me at all. As a rule, I am much more tolerant of video imperfections than poor audio quality.

Posted by: jasoncarr

Same here. But then again I never had a high-end VHS so that says something about me right there. A certain amount of visual noise is ok, and it alleviated somewhat by the smallish size of our TV.

Basic is usually fine for us; pixelization seems most prominent in the transitions between commercials and shows (total screen wipes) which doesn't bother me at all. Only if pixelization interferes/distracts does it bother me.

For example, we were watching a show about how candy bars are made (Unwrapped). A few times in that show the workers were pouring large amounts of tiny ingredients; this gave the encoder fits and it was difficult to tell which ingredient was being poured. Same kind of thing you see with water spray/droplet scenes. So I cranked that SP up to medium.

Posted by: stormsweeper

I record most everything at medium, with a few select SP's at High. I find basic to be unwatchable for just about anything.

Posted by: controlio

I work in television. I record all shows in high, and season passes in best. I never notice artifacting except in one case... when the screen shows "RF snow", like the "HBO Original Programming" bumper. That, and when you do freeze frames. Beyond that, I never notice artifacting.

Before I hacked my unit and put 120g in it, I always did medium/basic. It wasn't bad, but it just wasn't all it could be. Basic just had too many artifacts for my taste.

The only other person I know who claims to record everything in basic is Otto, but I still think he's either blind or a big fat liar. :D

Posted by: willmw

I honestly record everything in basic. The only exception is when I want to "keep the buffer". Granted, I am not a sports fan, so i don't record sports.

Posted by: cubfan33

What really pixellates for me is fire and water. Watching Survivor is fine, but any time there's some waves or a close shot of a campfire, the pixellation is noticeable. I recorded "Blue Planet" on Discovery on Best and still got very noticeable pixellation on several sequences.

That said, I notice it and move on. What Tivo gives me is worth the tiny annoyance of pixellated water.

Posted by: Breacagan

I like pixellated water! It's stylized and shimmery.

That said, I use Best quality for anything where I really care about the quality of the images (movies, Masterpiece Theatre, travel shows, bicycle racing, Formula One) and High quality for almost everything else. This was true even before upgrading the TiVo.

Posted by: donvickers

Would you give a "newbie" a definition of the term "artifacting" and what you view when it happen's, that causes you to be dissatisfied with the pix?

I have a Sony Vega 36 in TV and have the "sharpness" set all the way "up/to the right" since I set it up because I lke to see "the blades of grass in the outfield". Now...I'm guessing that that sharpness is the opposite of "smoothness" that one gets when they "backoff" of full "sharpness". Would my current default settings of "full/high sharpness" be considere "artifacting" to those of you that prefer "smoothness"?
I do see more "sharpness" via Tivo when watching "live or previously recorded" stuff...but that "smoothness" setting that the manual suggested, made the pix...not of my liking...IMHO.
Comments welcomed...and thanx...
Don

Posted by: mrjohnso

I have a standalone, and I can only record very few things at basic. Most things I record at high with those needing less video quality being medium.

I'd love to get a DTiVo to see how the other half live, but i'm not quite up to the investment of money, time and hassle (with the apartment complex) to switch just yet.

Posted by: Teggy

I think what most people are referring to as "artifacts" are "blocky" spots you'll see during quick changes in a scene. The picture essentially "breaks up" in certain spots.

As far as sharpness is concerned, it's an artificial effect that your tv can do. There should be a middle setting where your tv is not adding sharpness or blurring the picture. You'll see if you turn the sharpness all the way up, you'll get a "halo" type effect around lines. If you are setting up your tv "correctly," there should be no sharpness effect on. It can look blurry if you are used to having the sharpness turned up, but you get used it, and you'll be seeing detail as it actually is meant to appear. If you have a DVD player, you can use a DVD like "AVIA's Guide to Home Theater" or "Video Essentials" to set up your tv.

Posted by: jasoncarr

Here's a decent blurb on digital artifacts

Posted by: donvickers

Where would I go to get either of these two items?

"If you have a DVD player, you can use a DVD like "AVIA's Guide to Home Theater" or "Video Essentials" to set up your tv." (Quote)

Posted by: donvickers

Thanx...Yup! good site and good explanation.

Is this a great board, or what.

Don

quote:
Originally posted by jasoncarr
Here's a decent blurb on digital artifacts

Posted by: bonehead

quote:
Originally posted by controlio
The only other person I know who claims to record everything in basic is Otto, but I still think he's either blind or a big fat liar. :D

I record absolutely everything in basic, with the rare exception of movies that I plan to archive to VCD. You need best quality there since the video is going to have to go through 2 more compression passes before you're done.

But for anything that I'm going to watch and delete, basic is fine for absolutely everything (at least on a little 36" TV).

Posted by: FreydNot

quote:

quote:
"If you have a DVD player, you can use a DVD like "AVIA's Guide to Home Theater" or "Video Essentials" to set up your tv." (Quote)

Originally posted by donvickers
Where would I go to get either of these two items?

You can find Avia at amazon.com here
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/A...7757633-9525612 and other places like them. Search google and I'm sure you'll find it.

Posted by: aaronw

I record everything in basic, even sports. On the other hand, all my shows are 'watch and delete right away'. I do see artifacts some times, but honestly, it doesn't bother me one bit on a 27" TV. They are most noticeable like said before, with rapid color changes and water/fire. Maybe i've just gotten 'used' to them. but I cannot think of one show which i have gotten less enjoyment from due to the high level of compression.

Posted by: dgh

quote:
Originally posted by donvickers
I have a Sony Vega 36 in TV and have the "sharpness" set all the way "up/to the right" since I set it up because I lke to see "the blades of grass in the outfield". Now...I'm guessing that that sharpness is the opposite of "smoothness" that one gets when they "backoff" of full "sharpness". Would my current default settings of "full/high sharpness" be considere "artifacting" to those of you that prefer "smoothness"?

Probably. On many Sony's the normal position for the sharpness control (the only one that isn't distorting the signal) is far to the left (often 0.)

A typical high-end video magazine review of a Sony set will tell you to set the sharpness, to zero, "picture" to around 30% and turn off the color gizmo stuff (I think Sony calls it ASSC.) The DVDs mentioned can help you fine tune it further.

Sony ships the controls set way out-of-whack because many consumers buy the sharpness, bluest, contrastiest set in the store.

Posted by: DMHinCO

The History Channel has "U.S. Mints: Money Machines" coming up on Sunday. If it is anything like the recent documentary I saw about mints, it will be chock full of coins flowing into containers - classic mpeg compression challenges. I wish I could find something that is similar that has multiple showings so those of you who want to test pixelization could record the same thing on Basic and Best to see the difference.

I have a DirecTiVo now, so pixelization only occurs on local channels to which DirecTV has allocated too little bandwidth. The weird thing is, the problem often occurs in low-action scenes.

But when I had a SA TiVo with a DirecTV feed (very clean signal), I was a proponent of everything-in-basic-except-Broncos-football. You'll see that in the thread in my sig.

Posted by: mrcoaster

I used to record everything in Medium. I have an ATTivo that was mostly for my 1-hr shows (Buffy, Trek and more), a 14-hr Philips that I shared with my girlfriend for some comedies and we used it to record conflicts, then we had her 20 hr Philips. I usually was ok with medium on the ATTTivo. I'm out of town frequently, so I have to calculate what I have set up to record and make sure I have enough space to hold it all or start figuring out a priority of what shows I'm going to want. It adds up in a hurry when you're gone for 10 days. Plus I do a lot of picking things out by looking for stuff that interests me off the pick programs to record.

Anyway, getting more on topic, I now record everything in basic since my ATT Tivo bit the big one. I'm down to a 14-hr model and am really pressed for space to record everything I want. Good thing I'm not out of town for a week or two. If I did medium, I lose about 6 hrs of recording space and a lot more for high or best (I'd have to clear the Tivo out every night). Hell, as it is, I still have 10 hrs in there. I'm looking at replacing my ATT, but still haven't decided between a series 2 60 hr or maybe one from weaknees with 115 hrs on it. Then I'd be in much better shape space-wise for those trips out of town.

All things considered, I don't mind the basic that much. Sure, medium and high look better, but I don't mind the pixelation all that much when it pops up. I thought I would mind it more, but I really don't.

Posted by: murgatroyd

quote:
Originally posted by donvickers
Would you give a "newbie" a definition of the term "artifacting" and what you view when it happen's, that causes you to be dissatisfied with the pix?
Don

My earliest TiVo-watching was figure skating, the US Nationals. Even at Best Quality, I saw artifacts. The skaters themselves looked okay, but the background suffered a lot, depending on the camera angle and speed that the camera had to pan down the rink to follow the action.

The most immediately obvious problem was that the line along the top of the rink boards had the artifact commonly referred to as "the jaggies". It looked as if it had been drawn with a series of overlapping straight lines rather than one smooth one.

The most spectacular artifact happened when the camera had to pan quickly down the rink to follow Todd Eldredge during his straight-line footwork. The people in the crowd dissolved into a big smear of color, the kind of thing you'd see in a paint program if you selected a chunk of picture and turned it into a brush and then wiped it across the screen in a big broad stroke.

I have a 13" Sony KV-1311CR monitor hooked up to my TiVo, so I can't imagine what the effect might have been on a big TV. :D

Most of the other figure skating broadcasts I've seen have not been this bad. I suspect there was a problem with the camera setup in the rink where Nationals was held this year. I haven't seen the same kind of problem with baseball, for instance.

Hopes this helps.

Jan

Posted by: Commander Freak

Hey everyone,
Being a picky person, I notice ALL pixelization. Contrary to what most people think, I think that normal cable looks much sharper than DirecTV. The colors may not be as vibrant, but definitely sharper, to me. People usually don't know what the hell I'm talking about when I say DirecTV is splochy and pixelized. Which is why I have to record anything in the 'best' setting. And even then I notice it in scene transitions. I guess I just have to get used to it. I just wish it didn't distract me. Thanks for listening. :-)
Marc

Posted by: emjay

I record everything in basic except hockey (for other sports, basic is fine). I don't mind some pixelation.

On another note, even best is not great for hockey. The video quality, even live, is lowered a little, which can make it hard to follow the puck sometimes.