TiVo Community Forums Archives - NTL Radio & channel changing bug

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NTL Radio & channel changing bug
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Posted by: Modan

For some reason TiVo seems unable to change channel when trying to change away from a Radio channel on NTL Digital (original, Pace 4000).

The green light on the front of the box shows that it is receiving IR, but hardly any of the digits are actually being decoded correctly on the box. In about 20 tries roughly twice I saw 2 digits, five times 1 digit, and the rest 0 digits.

Still working flawlessly for all other channels though so I guess it is something internal to the DigiBox is a bit strange when tuned into a radio channel.

I haven't received the new lineup in my TiVo listings yet, but I can't imagine this could make any difference?

Posted by: Richardr

The same happens to me - original ntl area using a 4000 series box.

My Pronto has no problems changing from a radio channel.

Posted by: Modan

My Pronto only sends commands to TiVo, hence why I hadn't tried this. Does everyone on this forum have a Pronto then :)

Posted by: ozsat

In NTLoriginal areas, there is a new on-screen moving graphic displayed while listening to the new audio services.

It could be that this has changed the IR respond rate on the set-top-box.

I had a couple of problems changing using the proper IR remote for the cable box.

Posted by: TimAdye

I see the same problem: TiVo cannot change the PACE DI4001NC STB (NTL original area) when it is playing a radio station. NTL remote works fine. TiVo can change from other channels without problems.

Posted by: illingn

and me. Same STB, same problem. St. Albans, Herts, AL1 1AJ

Posted by: ozsat

Can all those with problems - please include the model number of the cable set-top-box - details of the IR settings you are using - and state whether you are on an ex-C&W region or an original NTL franchise.

Posted by: kitschcamp

quote:
Originally posted by ozsat
Can all those with problems - please include the model number of the cable set-top-box - details of the IR settings you are using - and state whether you are on an ex-C&W region or an original NTL franchise.

Just popped in to report the same problem here.

Model: Pace 4001N (no pass through version)
Franchise: Leicestershire (Original ntl:)
Settings: Pace 20009 Fast
IR Database: 101

Tried about 10 channel changes, usually nothing, ocassionally one digit got through.

Posted by: Richardr

Model: Pace 4001N (no pass through version)
Franchise: West Hertfordshire (ex-Comtel)
Settings: Pace 20009 Fast

Posted by: illingn

STB Pace DI4001N
Code 20009-fast
Original ntl franchise - St. Albans, Herts, AL1 1AJ

Posted by: ozsat

I too have a 4001N but not for TiVo - I did some tests however using just the stb's remote.

Pick any tv channel - all numeric key press displayed on LED only

But when on a radio channel I find that some digits are not registering - sometimes no at all for about 10 seconds - but sometimes all are OK!

All is fine when I go back to tv channels.

When I have problems - I find the IR flash is not displaying - then suddenly it will take two key presses at once!

Posted by: GarySargent

Note the codes TiVo uses are not straight number key codes.

To change to 101 for example TiVo will send:

RA, 1, RA, 0, RA, 1

Where "RA" is the right arrow / navigation key.

There is a technical reason for this described in the Pace 4000 thread referenced in the sticky FAQ. Any tests with the original remote should bear this in mind....

Posted by: Richardr

A potential future work around is to send the TV key before the channel numbers (in the same way that the Sky key is now sent for Sky Digital users). This puts the box back to the most recently watched TV channel (the audio key sending it to the most recently listened to radio channel).

This would need to be added by TIVO in a future code update.

In the meantime, the answer is if anyone has the same problem not to select any of the radio channels in channels you watch.

Posted by: ozsat

quote:
Originally posted by GarySargent
Any tests with the original remote should bear this in mind....

My point was that the IR acceptance of the stb seems to be different with audio channels.

Posted by: GarySargent

Yep! And my point was the right arrow key may also be affecting things as it might do something "special" when on a radio channel.

Posted by: kitschcamp

This morning I tried the 20009 medium and slow codes, both of which got no digits through at all.

Repeated channel changing using the original remote control with "number ra number ra number ra" - worked every time.

Posted by: GarySargent

I'll be onto this at the weekend...

Posted by: GarySargent

I've tweaked the IR codes so that they work with the radio stations. Just needed some slightly longer delays. I'll pass them on to TiVo tonight but it will probably take a few days with the weekend etc.

Posted by: Richardr

Thanks a lot Gary.

Posted by: kitschcamp

quote:
Originally posted by Richardr
Thanks a lot Gary.

Indeed, many thanks! I'm not sure what TiVo would do in the UK without your input.

Posted by: BrianHughes

Great work Gary (Mark or whatever), Thanks.

Posted by: shevans

Sorry been away a few days to try, but thank you Gary for working this one out.

Posted by: johnh

After tripping over this problem last night, I have found that if you do want to record a radio program and then a later program on another channel (radio or TV) while you are out, it is practical to set a reminder on the STB for the second program. This automatically switches the channel successfully a couple of minutes before the second program is due to start. Not ideal, but better than nothing.

Posted by: GarySargent

TiVo have confirmed they are in the process of adding my new NTL IR codes to their system...

Posted by: kitschcamp

Eagerly waited... There is a whole raft of programs I want to set on Radio 4, but dare not do so yet until the working IR codes come through.

Posted by: wadadli

Thanks for looking into the problem and coming up with a fix. However, if it's coming as a download I haven't got it yet. Any idea when? Thanks

Posted by: kitschcamp

It's getting rather frustrating, isn't it, knowing that the fix was worked out a week ago, yet we've still not got it :(

Posted by: wadadli

I'm not complaining. I think we're very lucky that TiVo can make a change that will basically mask an inconsistency in the Pace STB. I was just enquiring how long it will be.
Pete

Posted by: GarySargent

Its being processed so a few days hopefully.

Posted by: shevans

Oh No Radio instead of Football this morning. God am i going to be in trouble with the YL.

At about 8am I wen to start watching the football to find that the first 30 minutes was of NTL Radio. Grabbed the NTL remote and changed to 101 very quickly.

Posted by: GarySargent

Not sure whats happened to these codes - maybe they will appear with the new Grundig FTA ones tonight?....

Posted by: ozsat

Version 102 of the IR database is now available - although I can not test it and so can not confirm the changes within it!

To check the IR version you have - see the IR Controller Version in the System Information screen.

If you need the IR update and want to test it - but still have 101 - then perform a daily call!

It will automatically appear for everybody anyway and there is no need to force the call if you are not having problems.

Posted by: mbasker

Version 102 appeared overnight on my box, with the result that Tivo failed to change the channel for the first time ever when trying to get the footy this morning. Checked out the radio channels and it was as bad as before.... can change to a radio channel but not away :(

Posted by: ozsat

I am not sure if you need to re-boot to actually activate the new IR codes

Posted by: Richardr

I have re-booted and got 102, but the fix isn't there.

Posted by: illingn

I've got 102 as well - no change to report. Still sticks once it switches to a radio channel...oh well...maybe next time...?:(

Posted by: kitschcamp

Maybe the codes have been updated to 102, but they haven't actually included that fix in them. Gary has produced codes that do work, and sent them to TiVo, so it's not a case of the codes not working or them now having them. :(

Posted by: shevans

just to confirm I now have IR db version 102, but still have the NTL radio bug.

I have turned off suggestions for the moment.

Posted by: BrianHughes

quote:
Originally posted by shevans
just to confirm I now have IR db version 102, but still have the NTL radio bug.

...

Me too :(

Posted by: markan

I also have 102 now, but the radio bug seems to have cleared up for me!

Posted by: GarySargent

The codes have not been added yet and my box still has problems.

Posted by: markan

I wonder why mine did start working after 102 appeared then? Is anyone else using a 4000 box?

Posted by: kitschcamp

Yes, and the Pace 20009 codes are not working for the radio channels in this "original" ntl areas with the daft rotating graphic.

Posted by: BrianHughes

quote:
Originally posted by kitschcamp
Yes, and the Pace 20009 codes are not working for the radio channels in this "original" ntl areas with the daft rotating graphic.

I have to use best quality otherwise there is a slight fuzziness to the rotating graphic and I just can't live with that. It is absolutely imperitive that the rotating graphic in our house is exactly like the original. :)

Posted by: GarySargent

quote:
Originally posted by markan
I wonder why mine did start working after 102 appeared then? Is anyone else using a 4000 box?

What software version is your STB running? Press the help key - mine says:

V5.32 [05.32a-2-A]

Posted by: TiVoPony

Hi there.

I just saw a note from Gary asking what happened to these codes. I have to admit, I hadn't read this thread before, and didn't know about any of this.

I can ping a couple of people tomorrow and see what's happening.

And thanks to Gary for looking into this and coming up with a solution!

I'll see what I can find out...

Bob

Posted by: markan

My STB says:

V5.32 [05.32a-2-A]

so it doesn't look like it's that then.

Posted by: GarySargent

I noticed last night that the IR database is now at 103.

Did this patch make it?

(I can't check as my NTL TiVo is in Leeds and I'm in London with the Sky TiVo until Friday...)

Posted by: johnh

My box did its daily call at 7.30am and the channel changing fault is still there.

Posted by: mbasker

I noticed that the IR database is now at 103 as well, but it doesn't look like the patch made it.

Posted by: mrtickle

Remember that you have to restart the TiVo to get any new IR database to kick in - have you done that?

Posted by: mbasker

Nope, I'll try that tonight...

Posted by: johnh

Restarted my TiVo - still doesn't work.

Posted by: ritchf

TiVo UK are currently Beta testing new codes - watch this space

Posted by: TiVoPony

Hi.

We are still evaluating the codes Gary proposed, but nothing to say officially yet.

Bob

Posted by: kitschcamp

Gary's new codes work great and do eliminate the channel change bug. I really do not understand how it is taking 3 weeks to evaluate a change to the IR database. :-/

Posted by: GarySargent

quote:
Originally posted by TiVoPony
Hi.

We are still evaluating the codes Gary proposed, but nothing to say officially yet.

Bob

I seem to recall it took TiVo at least this long to "evaluate" the codes when I first produced the ones that everyone is using now. :rolleyes:

In any case I'll do what I usually do when TiVo delays - I'll be publishing a BASH script and full instructions on how to install them over the weekend for people who desperately want these new codes.

Posted by: TiVoPony

We've been working with NTL and PACE to identify a suitable solution for this issue, and have implemented and tested a new IR code.

The new code has been tested both internally and by customers, and we believe it has successfully solved the issue. The code will be published as PACE 20020, and will be available in IR database version 104 late tonight or early tomorrow.

We're sorry that a few of you felt we could have implemented this change faster. It is important to us that we consult and work with the companies involved to verify the proposed solutions, and then test them thoroughly. In the end this allows us to provide you with a solution that we have confidence in releasing.

And we do appreciate the effort Gary put into initiating this. His work was very helpful in resolving the issue.

Cheers,
Bob

Posted by: ftindle

Just tested 104 with my NTL Box (PACE DI4001NC NTL Guildford)...

Works perfect! now lets see if it will record England beating Brazil tomorrow morning... Come On England!

Perfect Timing for the fix BTW, as I am on vacation next week hehe

Thanks guys I appreciate the effort, QA aint about banging it in and rolling it out... some of us understand QA :cool:

frank

Posted by: GarySargent

Thanks for finally sending the codes out, but....

a) Why are they new codes? This will just confuse people who will typically use the first ones they find that seem to work.

b) By all means verify and check the codes but there is no reason why you can't issue them as beta codes under the TIVO manufacturer while you do so. This both allows us to get the new codes early, and to feedback info to you as to how well they work.

Posted by: BrianHughes

quote:
Originally posted by ftindle
...Works perfect! now lets see if it will record England beating Brazil tomorrow morning... Come On England!

...

In the venerable tradition of TivoPony (above), I shall say nothing ...

Posted by: Rocky

Unfortunately it does not seem to have worked here :( NTL (was Comtel) - Basingstoke

DL4001N v5.32 [05.32a-2-A]

Tivo IR Controller Version 00034, DB version 104. 20009-Slow

Tried warm/cold reboot and moving the IR emitter(s).

I'll call customer support and see what they have to say.

Posted by: Dean Ashton

> Tivo IR Controller Version 00034, DB version 104. 20009-Slow

This may be your problem. TivoPony said it was a new code (20020)..

Give that a try and report back.. :)

Dean

Posted by: shevans

Try this....

quote:
Originally posted by TiVoPony
The code will be published as PACE 20020, and will be available in IR database version 104 late tonight or early tomorrow.

beat me to it :)

Posted by: Rocky

Oops... all excited... first post... now feeling stupid... shouldn't skip read ... ;)

20020 works fine. Thanks for the replies.

Slopes off to sit in a corner.

Posted by: kitschcamp

Yup, seems to be working here, too. Hurrah! Now I can set my season passes in confidence for my week in Prague.

Posted by: eric23

Rocky, just for future reference in case it's ever of any importance. Basingstoke was originally Telessential > Com:Tel > NTL.

In Brighton (I learnt from Rob Bellis) there's a similar horror story: Nynex > C&W > NTL.

It's no wonder NTL's network is so fundamentally flawed with these inconsistencies.

Posted by: GarySargent

For reference...

IR database 103 on 18 June added the new Pace 4000 code to the TIVO-88887 codes (no one noticed!). They seemed to add a duff ENTER key code as well unless my box is just messed up somehow.

IR database 104 on 21 June added the new Pace 4000 code to the PACE-20020 codes.

The old Pace 20009 code remains unchanged and should now no longer be used.

Posted by: TiVoPony

quote:
Originally posted by GarySargent
For reference...

IR database 103 on 18 June added the new Pace 4000 code to the TIVO-88887 codes (no one noticed!). They seemed to add a duff ENTER key code as well unless my box is just messed up somehow.

IR database 104 on 21 June added the new Pace 4000 code to the PACE-20020 codes.

The old Pace 20009 code remains unchanged and should now no longer be used.

I told you that we'd beta tested this. ;)

Now that you know that hiding place, we'll have to find another...

Bob

Posted by: GarySargent

Hiding place - we've known about it for ages!?!?

Posted by: mjk

Forgive my ignorance, but would someone care to explain what actually caused the problem. I've been trying to figure out what the scenario was, and failing miserably., coming to the conclusion that I obviously don't understand the problem.

I am a little confused as to how adding more channels would stop the channel selection process from working, and more importantly why different IR codes would fix it.

Presumably PACE did not change the IR codes the box responds to, else their own remote controls would stop working (unless they were somehow told to start using new codes). Thus one would expect the 0-9 codes sent out by TiVo to also still work.

If that is correct, then presumably the problem must lie in the TiVo, perhaps is the way in which it determines that it has successfully tuned to a channel. Presumably there is an algorithm which is used to determine the presence of a "valid" input signal. I can see how such an algorithm could be confused by the appearance of radio channels with little or no video component. However, I would have thought that would have caused problems in switching TO the radio channels, no away from them. And anyway, I don't see how new IR codes would fix that problem.

So, I remain baffled, and genuinely curious as to what was actually going on. Any offers of enlightenment gratefully received!

Martin

Posted by: TiVoPony

quote:
Originally posted by GarySargent
Hiding place - we've known about it for ages!?!?

You yourself said "no one noticed!". ;)

Perhaps I should have said "now that you've remembered to look there..."

Next time I'll use more smilies... :D

Bob

Posted by: ozsat

If its the NTL channel change from radio services you are referring to - then it wasn't the addition of extra channel that caused the problems.

For original NTL area, radio was added for the first time. But unlike the ex-C&W regions - something else new appeared!

When selecting a radio channel in an ex-NTL region - you now get a moving image in the corner of the screen to indicate you are listening to radio. Ex-C&W users just get a blank screen.

It would seem that while displaying this moving 'radio' logo - the handling of the IR codes is slightly different.

I think it is all explained at the start of this thread!

Posted by: GarySargent

The audio channels have an onscreen graphic saying "AUDIO" that spins around, like an animated GIF. This is not sent as part of a TV signal, but is generated by the box.

The processing of this has slowed the responsiveness of the box down so it can't handle two IR codes as close to each other.

The Pace 4000 codes are actually two codes in one, they send the right arrow key followed by the digit key. The setting of slow/medium/fast does NOT change the delay between the right arrow and the digit as it is fixed in the IR waveform.

The reason that the right arrow needs to be sent is because the IR codes use a special bit which toggles each IR signal. This is to allow the box to detect a duplicate signal (say being bounced off a wall). If you press the digit "1" on your original remote, then press it again, the two waveforms generated are slightly different - a single bit is changed each time.

To counter this (as TiVo can't currently cope with this) the right arrow key is sent with the bit set one way, and then the digit with it set the other way.

The right arrow simply sets the check digit to a known "ready" state. If its wrong then the box will ignore it, if its right then the box is in a state to receive the real digit with the bit set as expected.

Originally without all this messing around the codes were pretty unreliable (about 70% accurate). Now they are about 99.99% accurate (well after this mod anyway!).

Posted by: TiVoPony

Congratulations on passing 4000 posts Gary... :)

Posted by: GarySargent

quote:
Originally posted by TiVoPony
Congratulations on passing 4000 posts Gary... :)

Wow thanks - didn't even realise it was approaching!!!!! :D

Posted by: mjk

Thanks, Gary, for the education.

Why is it that everyone feels the need to put something on the screen for audio-only channels. It always bgs me in hotels when they display the channel menu if you tune the TV to one of the radio channels. The glow tends to interfere with the Shipping Forecasts sleep-inducing properties!!

At least at home I can turn the TV off and just enjoy the sound.

Martin

Posted by: scoops

Tried out the new code on my NTL box (PACE DI4001NC NTL Swindon) both 20020-Fast and 20020-Medium have locked up the NTL Box over the last two nights.:(

I have switched over to 20020-Slow this morning but it is annoyingly slow when changing channels. Has anyone got the fast or medium codes to work?

Steve

Posted by: shevans

SCOOPS

I have same STB and using 20020 - FAST without any problems at all. Try moving the emitter to another position to see if this helps.

Posted by: Richardr

Works fine here - West Hertfordshire.

What do you mean by locked up the box? Could this show a problem with the box, rather than the codes?

Posted by: scoops

quote:
Originally posted by Richardr
What do you mean by locked up the box? Could this show a problem with the box, rather than the codes?

The picture freezes and the box stops responding to IR signals or the buttons on the box. It requires a power down and then it all seems to work OK again.

Had been using the 20009-Fast codes for two weeks with no problems so maybe I've knock the emitters out of place or something. I'll check that first and see if that solves it.

Posted by: BrianHughes

Try rebooting the box, Fast works fine for me.

Posted by: GarySargent

There is not really much difference between the 20009 and 20020 codes - just a slightly longer delay. If anything they should be more reliable not less.