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Reliable Drive for Upgrade?
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Posted by: SnowdogDigital

My TiVo has started to stutter and lock up again, and it seems likely, based on past experience, that the cause is the 80GB Maxtor drive I have in the unit. This will be the fourth 80GB Maxtor I have had die in my TiVo.

So, my question is: What make/model of drive is most reliable as a second drive in a TiVo? There must be a better solution than shipping drives back to Maxtor every few months!

Thanks.

Ed

Posted by: TDSLB

I was getting ready to make I similiar post. I was thinking western Digital though. I have seen many Maxtors give out over a short period. I do like maxtors as a PC hardrive. They work quite reliably there.

Posted by: Spence

Some folks just love Maxtors, I however have used four Western Digital dirves in my two TiVos, running for 2 years now without a stopple. The one time I did try a 60 gig Maxtor it sounded like a power drill and I returned it for a WD.

Posted by: cactus46

My TiVo was upgraded with a 100 GB WD 7200 on 12/30/01 and then I added 120 GB 7200 a couple of weeks ago. There was little temperature difference. And my drives are quiet. These drives went into a Philips SA 30 hour unit. All is working well and I'm happy! :-)

Posted by: TRILIGHT

Guess it's all just in the luck of the draw, really. I've had a 100GB Maxtor as the second drive in my SAT-T60 for almost a year now and have not had any issues at all. Both drives are completely full too.

Posted by: Worf

Hrm. Hope my seagate doesn't give way :). Shouldn't - I hotwired the TiVo fan to run at 12V continually, and put in a case fan blowing air over the drive...

Posted by: SnowdogDigital

quote:
Originally posted by TRILIGHT
Guess it's all just in the luck of the draw, really. I've had a 100GB Maxtor as the second drive in my SAT-T60 for almost a year now and have not had any issues at all. Both drives are completely full too.

I'd normally think it was luck of the draw, but I've been buying and using hard drives for twenty years (first drive: 5MB external for an Apple II!), and I've never seen a run of "luck" like this before.

I really suspect that there may be a correlation between Maxtor being the first out with higher capacity drives and the failure rate of those drives. If they're pushing the density beyond what the hardware can reliably handle, that would certainly explain a very high failure rate.

Posted by: Rcrew

I thought the same thing as you, that's too many in a row for a single user.

There have been questions on this forum before about exactly where the temperture is being measured. I don't remember an specific reply.

So, is that reliable, and is it reliable for you. What else could you be doing different that have 4 drives fail?

Do you stand your unit on end? I have mine on the l/h side.

I won't answer your poll though, because my new 80GB Seagate is only a month old. Too soon to be meaningful.

Rob

Posted by: TRILIGHT

quote:
Originally posted by SnowdogDigital
I'd normally think it was luck of the draw, but I've been buying and using hard drives for twenty years (first drive: 5MB external for an Apple II!), and I've never seen a run of "luck" like this before.

I really suspect that there may be a correlation between Maxtor being the first out with higher capacity drives and the failure rate of those drives. If they're pushing the density beyond what the hardware can reliably handle, that would certainly explain a very high failure rate.

While I can appreciate your years of use of hard drive technology, that hardly qualifies anyone as a magnetic or Integrated Drive Electronics specialist. There are a number of things factored into hard drive reliability. One of the most common gauges is MTBF (Mean Time Between Failure). This is a predicted number but is the de facto standard for measuring hard drive reliability. Heat plays a huge role in this as well. Some studies have shown a drive running at 55C is likely to fail in half the time the same drive would operating at 45C.

Don't confuse the temps with the one you see in the "System Information" on the unit though. This temperature is not the temp of the hard drive(s). It is measured via an IC that is located near the hottest part of the unit which is the voltage regulators on the right hand side of the box.

I don't think they were pushing density past what the hardware could handle. The most recent barrier to be broken was 137GB and that was in 2001. Before that, the barrier was only 8.4GB. I'm not talking about BIOS or OS limitations, etc. I'm referring to the actual barriers of the physical drive and it's integrated electronics. I purchased my 100GB Maxtor as soon as they were available and it's given me no trouble. I purchased a 160GB Maxtor external firewire drive as soon as it was released and have had no trouble with it either. I use it as my storage drive for all of my software as well as my video capture/editing drive. It gets at least the same workout at the one in the TiVo and it's never had a problem either.

The reason I say it is the "luck of the draw" is simply because it is. If going on only my own experience, I would say Western Digital is not good since I have had the most problems with those drives failing in the past. Of course, I came across more of those drives at the company I worked for at the time so perhaps that too is a factor. I've had quite a few Quantum IDE drives fail on me (anyone who remembers the "Bigfoot" drives, knows they're total crap!) and yet I've never seen a Quantum SCSI drive fail. (By the way, for anyone wondering, Maxtor bought Quantum's hard drive line.) Considering Quantum introduced the first "hard card" in 1985, and Maxtor now benefits from all of Quantum's hard drive past R&D as well as their own, I'd hardly say they don't know what they're doing

Ultimately, my point is that you are not necessarily going to "solve all your problems" by going to another brand or with staying with Maxtor for that matter. Use whatever makes you feel good and works for you. It really is just "luck" except for when an entire line goes bad (such as the "Bigfoot" drives). Nothing has reported this entire line of drives to be bad so you really have just had bad luck. Hope it gets better for you.

Posted by: SnowdogDigital

quote:
Originally posted by TRILIGHT

While I can appreciate your years of use of hard drive technology, that hardly qualifies anyone as a magnetic or Integrated Drive Electronics specialist.

I never claimed to be any sort of specialist, but I don't think you need to be a specialist to recognize a trend. Four out of four 80GB Maxtor drives failing seems worth noting, and, combing back through past threads on this board, it's apparent that I'm not the only one who has had multiple 80GB Maxtors fail.

I'm not saying this is a blanket indictment of Maxtor, but I've purchased hundreds of hard drives, and this is the first time I've ever seen four drives of the same model fail in a row. Maybe it's luck, maybe it's not, but I'm tired of RMA'ing drives and reloading my TiVo.

Posted by: Rcrew

quote:
Originally posted by SnowdogDigital
I'm not saying this is a blanket indictment of Maxtor, but I've purchased hundreds of hard drives, and this is the first time I've ever seen four drives of the same model fail in a row. Maybe it's luck, maybe it's not, but I'm tired of RMA'ing drives and reloading my TiVo.

I'm glad to see this is still a friendly thread and everyone with differing opinions is being polite.

I am not an expert either. But I've worked around computers for 23 years. Mostly mainframes, but even we have been using PCs for a long time. Trouble shooting and diagnosing are similar.

I would just like to point out that at this time, there are two things consistent with your specific problem.

One, you've continued to install 80GB 7200 RPM Maxtors.

Two, you've installed them all in the same TiVo, in the same environment.

Somethings consistently failing. What are the chances it's the drive vs something in the environment?

To that I bow to a PC expert.

Rob

Posted by: hinsdale

A Trend is not established with 4 drives in the same unit - this could be an indication of environmental impact.

A trend is something that you would find with hundreds of drives in hundreds of units and my personal experience with a quite large sample is that Maxtor's overall are very reliable. I wont indict other drives on anecdotal evidence but I am most comfortable installing Maxtor drives in TiVos.

Posted by: SnowdogDigital

quote:
Originally posted by Rcrew

I would just like to point out that at this time, there are two things consistent with your specific problem.

One, you've continued to install 80GB 7200 RPM Maxtors.
Two, you've installed them all in the same TiVo, in the same environment.

Somethings consistently failing. What are the chances it's the drive vs something in the environment?

Actually, I think it's a 5400 RPM drive.

What make me suspect the drives rather than the environment is that the Maxtors are failing but the WD A drive I have in there continues to work fine. Of course it could be some sort of weird electronic problem that only affects the B drive, I guess. It's much easier to blame the drive, though, since I know what to do about that. :D

The reported temp on the unit seems to hold between 41C and 43C. I've got it standing up on end, with clearance on both sides.

Posted by: TRILIGHT

Have you tried taking the drives you suspect to be bad and running low-level diagnostics on them? There is diagnostic software and utilities to control write-verify and acoustic management on the Maxtor site. Western Digital always made me send a copy of the diagnostics error codes returned when I had to RMA a drive. I've never had to RMA a Maxtor so I don't know if they required you to do so when you had to RMA your previous drives. If you were to receive the same error codes on the same drive off more than one type of systemboard, I would definitely say it was the drive. Otherwise, it's probably an anomaly in your TiVo setup with the drive.

Posted by: SnowdogDigital

quote:
Originally posted by TRILIGHT
Have you tried taking the drives you suspect to be bad and running low-level diagnostics on them? There is diagnostic software and utilities to control write-verify and acoustic management on the Maxtor site. Western Digital always made me send a copy of the diagnostics error codes returned when I had to RMA a drive.

Yes, I ran the Maxtor low-level diagnostics on each drive before sending it back, and the diags reported each drive as bad. I think Maxtor talks on their site about needing to supply them with the diagnostic result codes when returning a drive, but nobody has asked me for any specifics when I've called to set up the RMAs.

I did discover something that was interesting earlier today: PC Peripherals, a company that sells alot of (relabeled) Maxtor drives, is now replacing returned Maxtor 80GB drives with Seagate 80GB drives. Could be because of problems with the Maxtors? They're probably not doing it to save money, since the Seagate drives are more expensive.

Posted by: TRILIGHT

Where does it say that? I just looked and their site says they have 188 Maxtor 80GB drives and nothing about a replacement. You should look elsewhere anyway though. They are selling them for $130. There are other places where they are as cheap as $100. If you're going to spend $130 at PC Peripherals, you might as well spend $150 somewhere else and get a 120GB drive.

Posted by: SnowdogDigital

I don't know that it says anything on their site about replacing them with Seagates -- I was just talking to a friend yesterday about the problem, and one of his people had recently RMAed a 5400RPM 80GB Maxtor back to PC Peripherals and received a 7200RPM 80GB Seagate back, called to find out what was going on, and was told they were replacing returned 80GB Maxtors with Seagates. I've never done business with PC Peripherals, myself.

Posted by: Worf

My only concern is that while those 80GB seagates are *quiet* (very!), they do run fairly hot (at least when I was copying the drives - the seagate was hot to the touch...).

Posted by: Rcrew

I put an 80GB Seagate 7200 drive in one of my DTiVos. It does stand on end, and I understand the temp sensor isn't tha close.

But my operating temp did not change, and it's within 1 degree of my 2nd unmodified DTiVo.

Rob

Posted by: Todd

I replaced my main drive with a 15gig Quantum and added a 5,400rpm 80 gig Maxtor about a year and a half ago and they work perfectly. I can't even heard them.

Posted by: Worf

Well, the temperature sensor isn't the most reliable tool for finding out the drive temp, especially since that it's buried somewhere a fair distance away. The TiVo has localized "hot spots" in it (hard drive, decoder chip, etc) while the temperature sensor wouldn't read that much of a change. (Plus, with the TiVo turning on the fan when the thermometer reaches a certain threshold, if the temperature was already hovering at it, you won't see much - TiVo will just turn the fan on more often).

But I worry about how hot that drive runs - heat is the last thing you want for a hard drive...

Posted by: badcrc

Well in the last 5 years I've had about 6 Maxtor drives, several Quantums, a few Seagates, and several WDs. Three of the Maxtors died right before the 3-year warranty expired and I got them replaced, which was extremely easy I might add, maybe because Maxtor gets a lot of returns, who knows :). I had two Quantums die, one before warranty expired which got replaced, and one after warranty expired :(. My Seagates are running strong, only had one of those die years ago and it was SCSI. Had one WD die recently, out of warranty :(.

With just my personal experience I wouldn't say any drive is better than another, except WD may be slightly ahead of the rest overall. I could say more Maxtors die than other drives, but I've also owned more Maxtor drives. I recently got deals on two different models of retail 80G maxtors, one is in my PC and tonight I just put the other in my second tivo. I'll see how those work out.

Posted by: mikey

I always use Western Digital drives in my PCs and I've never had a failure. Haven't hacked a DTIVO, yet.

Posted by: timlinca

Three months ago when I was upgrading my two DTiVos, the talk on this forum was that WD drives are horrible, IBM's are not suitable to remain "allways on" and Maxtor's are the "Greatest".

They were attested to being long lived, quiet and inexpensive. Just check the threads from 3 months ago.

Now it's the oppisite. WD's last forever and Maxtors die daily! Go figure!
For what it's worth I have 2 120 maxtors in one and 1 120 in the other. They are both still running, still quiet and still cool. Never had stopple. I'll let you know if they die...

Tim

Posted by: jhanson

I've just had my 2nd Maxtor 80G 5400RPM drive (536DX) fail in my DSR6000 after about one month of use. The 1st Maxtor failed after 3 months. However, I have the same drive in a GXEBOT which has worked flawlessly for 6 months.

I would suspect the DSR6000, EXCEPT that the original Fireball drive has been working fine in it for about 2 years now. Actually, my hunch is that the DSR6000 power supply is a little off and the new Maxtor drives aren't able to take it as well as the Fireball. The Maxtor drive happened to fail the same night that our power went out. I'd guess the power dropped / spiked and the Maxtor didn't like it and died.

It is some consolation that other people are having the same problem. This would make me more suspect the quality of the drive rather than the power supply. I have to say that Maxtor has a very good return policy (although they're getting a tad cranky), but reloading the system and losing my recordings is a pain. Not to mention that I have nightmares about the click-clock sound that haunts me through the night as the drive fails... click-clock... click-clock, click-clock ....

Posted by: timlinca

Another thing. The poll is kind of wierd. For example, if you have a Maxtor and you think it's reliable then you can vote for Maxtor as a reliable disk drive. If you have a Maxtor and it dies after a couple of months, how do you vote? You can "not vote" for Maxtor but you can't really vote for a different one since you don't have first hand experience with it.

Maybe we should have had one vote for "Maxtor Good" and one for "Maxtor Bad" and so on down the line.

Just a thought.

Tim

Posted by: jhanson

I thought the same thing about the Poll... it really should say something like "Which drive has failed for you in your upgrade?"

One more thought on the Maxtor. There hasn't been any talk of model #s. My failed drives have both been 536DX (4W080H6). I believe these are 4 platter drives which I assume would be more troublesome than a 2 platter drive (just based on number of parts). I've ordered a 570DX (2 platter) to see how it fairs.

What model of 80G Maxtor drives are people having problems with?!