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Should I see an improvement in picture quality with 3.0?
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Posted by: Potato

First post.

I have had a series 2 for a few weeks now and generally I really like it. The picture quality has always been poor though. From other posts here I got the impression that the 3.0 software would improve the quality.

Anyway, last week at 3 am my Tivo spontaneously rebooted and came back up with version 3.0 of the SW (incidentally, while I was recording and watching the England vs. Sweden match - the reboot caused me to miss 20 minutes. Shouldn't it wait until it isn't recording for the reboot?). With the new software, I see absolutely no improvement in quality.

I always record everything in 'best', I tried 'good' but it was unwatchable, but I was stunned the other day to see a friends series 1 (that cost 1/3 the price of my series 2) recording and how much better it looked than mine.

Anyone know what the deal is with the PQ on series 2? Am I best off ditching it on ebay and finding an old series 1 to buy instead or is there hope of further hardware or software upgrades that might improve the situation?

I'm certainly sold on the convenience :)

Steve.

Posted by: jlb

I would think that at "Best", you may not see much improvement, as the signal is uncompressed (right?, not sure...). However, I could see that at the lower qualities where data is compressed, that improvements may have been made in how it is handled. I record at Medium and I see an improvement, more often in channels where the signal is not as strong. Maybe I just think it looks better, who knows......

Posted by: Hoffer

Picture quality all relies on what you have as input. Satellite and digital cable are the best, then regualar cable and OTA.

The very best TiVo picture quality IMO is a DirecTV with TiVo receiver. There is no analog to digital conversion done since the signal received from DirecTV is already digital. I've had both a SA and DTiVo

Posted by: Leo Valiant

Unless I'm imagining things, 3.0 improved the picture quality on my Series 2 in my case. IMO, still not as good as Series 1, but hopefully they can keep working on it. I still find myself distracted by pixelation that I didn't with my Series 1, just not as often now with 3.0.

Posted by: Stu_Bee

quote:
Originally posted by b11051973
Picture quality all relies on what you have as input. Satellite and digital cable are the best, then regualar cable and OTA.

The very best TiVo picture quality IMO is a DirecTV with TiVo receiver. There is no analog to digital conversion done since the signal received from DirecTV is already digital. I've had both a SA and DTiVo

I think we are forgetting the original poster's question. What's up with Series 2 quality and is it going to get any better. All I can say is that I believe Tivo goofed big time by switching to an inferior chip. Video Quality is one of the most noticable aspect of a DVR....so switching to a brand that was worse than the original to save some bucks looks like a mistake so far.

Not many people here are complaining yet, so I'm figuring most people in this forum aren't using Standalone Series2 yet, or they are supporting the Tivo Company no matter what they do. (you know who you are :) Yes I love my Tivo....but, Yes the series2 PQ can be bad compared to Standby/pass thru mode.

3.0 improved a little bit, but I must be paranoid, cause I'm guessing they just increased the recording quality by changing the formula for the amount of diskspace encoding takes up for each basic/high/best setting (ie I wonder if a 40 hr series 2 is really 40hrs after 3.0)

Peace Out !

Posted by: dzazzo

Well, with regards to a Series1 device, I've got a Sony SA running version 3.0.

Picture quality has always been sub-par for me, (this is not a whine, don't read it as such - I've just gotten used to it)..

Now, here's my setup:

I've got a Sony SAT-B55 receiver on top of my Sony SA TiVo, running S-Video into the TiVo from the B55. Pixelation is sometimes an issue, but more noticable is the chroma effects that linger. Reds in particular cause some weirdness to occur on the screen. I may try different cables (this summer, I plan on doing a complete re-wire of my theatre setup) .. but I'm not sure how to avoid this.

Yes, I agree with b11051973: The DTivo we have upstairs in my place renders excellent quality -- and it's gotta be because of the lack of an D-A and A-D conversion.

I still love my TiVo.

Posted by: king daddy

I don't notice any difference in picture quality between my Series2 and my SVR2000, which died an untimely death a few months ago. I saw several posts on this topic a while back which was why I decided to purchase at BB since I could return it easily if I didn't like the picture quality. From previous posts it seemed that the quality of the cable signal meant all the difference. Perhaps the Series2 are more sensitive to a less-than-stellar cable signal than Series1. I never saw any post from TiVoPony or any other TiVo representative on this topic.

Upon upgrading to 3.0 I don't believe there was any picture improvement for me.

Posted by: Stu_Bee

quote:
Originally posted by king daddy
I never saw any post from TiVoPony or any other TiVo representative on this topic.

Upon upgrading to 3.0 I don't believe there was any picture improvement for me.

Here's the text from a post by Tivolutionary...I'd include a link to the thread if I knew how :)
---------------------
I wanted to let you know that we are looking into Picture Quality improvements on Series 2 Recorders. We have done significant testing and adjustment already, and frankly the MPEG chips are just different. But there is always room for improvement.

We implementing tweaks in both our software and chip microcode.

For Series 1 we made numerous improvements over the course of the last few years. We will do so for Series 2 as well.

The best thing you can do is get on the beta! Different people have different equipment and tastes, and we will work to find settings that are pleasing to everyone.
---------------------

Posted by: jhwpbm

I've never had a S1, so can't comment there, but I saw VERY little degradation on my 60" Mitsubishi while viewing Medium quality on my SA S2. Since the upgrade to 3.0, the quality is, if anything, a touch better (seems like a bit less graininess, more "pure" colors, etc.). I don't think I could tell the difference between passthrough vs. through TiVo.

I agree with a number of other posters: it seems as if S2s may be more sensitive to "noisy" connections than S1s. My connection must be pretty clean (AT&T Digital), 'cause the only PQ problem I ever see at Medium quality is SLIGHT piexellation on REALLY fast-moving scenes -- otherwise, I'd never know TiVo was there (except for the convenience, of course!).

Posted by: Potato

I've always considered my cable feed to be pretty clean so I don't think that's the issue. I'm using a Mitsubishi 65" HDTV so that is obviously going to show more flaws than a smaller set and has the additional issue that the TV digitizes the input from the Tivo right after the Tivo has just converted it back to analog. But still.

On best quality, I can see the compression very easily. It looks blocky and in lower light programming (a lot of interiors on The Shield for example) I can see the background kind of pulsing as it switches from one key frame to another.

I don't really have a problem with artifacts on movement but detail is very poor. It's sometimes hard to tell which team is which when watching the world cup. Incidentally, bypassing Tivo and going straight to the TV, the signal looks great.

On 'good' quality (I can just about stand watching South Park on 'good') all the objects have a fuzzy halo around them and transitions are obviously slow.

Maybe there is something wrong with my particular box if others are using series 2 boxes on medium and good settings and are happy with the results.

I'll look into signing up for the beta too - thanks for the tip.

Steve.

Posted by: entrails99

Series 2 AT&TiVo. Analog cable input, output to a 32" Sony WEGA.

Wasn't that happy with Best picture quality when I first got it with the 2.0sw, but kept it because it was just too cool. The primary problem was block-artifacting with fast motion or whole-screen scene fades and transitions.

Then my TiVo slurped up 3.0sw. IMO, there is a marked reduction in block-artifacting. In fact, I can't see any anymore. There is still a bit of graininess around finely detailed images, but you have to look real hard.

Am now happy and satisfied with my TiVo's image quality. Not feeling like I've given up anything appreciable by not watching unTiVo TV.

Posted by: Leo Valiant

quote:
Originally posted by Potato

Maybe there is something wrong with my particular box if others are using series 2 boxes on medium and good settings and are happy with the results.

There's just too many factors. Quality of TV, feed, cables, distance to TV, size of TV, how good your vision is, what you watch, and even just how much you can tolerate. That's why there are so many opinions on picture quality.

I have the same issues as you do. Dark scenes and the fuzzy halo around objects. That plus text and transitions. But for me it's Medium that I have the problem with, where as I didn't with the Series 1. With 3.0 I very rarely see these problems in Best anymore, and only occasionally in High.

I had a Series 1 for two years before I swapped it out for a Series 2. I even used the same cables. So I think I've had a fair comparison. I'm not saying Medium sucks on a Series 2, I'm just saying it's worse than the Series 1. I'm still happy with the Series 2 and have no plans to return it.

Posted by: markp99

PQ on my series2 after v3.0 upgrade is excellent on my 29" at a distance of ~10ft.

To simulate a larger screen, I just sit closer to the screen. I can begin to see artifacts/grains at about 3 ft...kind of a "vertical blind" effect/pattern.

Not sure if halving the distance is same as doubling the screensize... I guess distance from monitor/size of monitor would be an important consideration for screen quality.

Time to move back onto the couch where I belong...

[homer]mmmm....Tivo...[/homer]

PS> I record everythig at HIGH quality...and my FREESPACE* indicator says I have TONS of space left...

*About 35 1/2 hr suggestions

Posted by: Skylooker

Personally, I'm okay with the quality on my series 1 just the way it is. I'd rather not sacrifice any storage capacity for a small gain in quality. The balance between quality and space is working for me right now and I'd rather not tweek it.

I know I have no choice but I kinda like things the way they are.

Posted by: Impala1ss

I think that there should be a special forum for large screen TV viewers. There simply is no comparison between the way the signal looks on a small TV. (i.e 36" or less), and the way the same signal looks on a large TV. Discussions such as this have little meaning when one guy is telling what he sees on his 27" TV and another is describing what he sees on his 75". It's simply apples and oranges.:eek: