TiVo Community Forums Archives - Sony Audio Hard Disc Recorder

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Sony Audio Hard Disc Recorder
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Posted by: Automan

This gadget looks interesting....

I may have to order one...

http://www.hifibitz.co.uk/warehouse...tID=SONHARD1000

Automan.

Posted by: Automan

After further checks I see the following...

1. Amazon.com no longer sell it.

A review says

Pros: High Capacity, Superb Sound Quality, Easy Installation, Quiet Hard Drive Operation
Cons: Slow Transfers, Extremely Difficult to Use Without PC, Limited Documentation, No Random Play Mode

No random play!
I also read it can only have 10 play lists!

Maybe I won't order one...

Anyone got any views on this product?

Automan.

Posted by: Tenex

A number of the well known hi-fi/etc retailers sem to be bringing out HDD VCRs.

Tivo may have decent competition in a year or two.

Posted by: chimaera

Unfortunately the Sony device uses ATRAC3 compression at a maximum of 132kpbs, which Sony themselves until now have only deemed fit for their portable products. ATRAC5 and ATRAC-R compression which are both used in consumer home MiniDisc equipment are not supported, nor are MP3 or WMA.

Posted by: mas

I think this is the next best thing/competition, shame its only in USA at the moment, any UK reseller would make a fortune!

Video - Like Tivo, MP3, DVD-CD etc

www.moxi.com

All comes down to how good the software is - will it be as good as tivo ?

Michael.

Posted by: Richardr

Alternatives to the Sony without enforced compression are the Yamaha CDR-HD1000 - which includes a CD-R / CD-RW deck, allowing compilations and the like to be burned to CD from the hard disk, but which has no compression option, or the Onkyo MB-S1, which has options to compress, but can use just PCM, and just has a CD player built in.

The latter is reviewed in this month's 'Gramophone' magazine [August dated issue], their main problem being the price, which has gone from $550 + tax in the states to Ł1,200 listed here. As a result, and because of the CD writer, they recommend the Yamaha.

Posted by: Tenex

quote:
Originally posted by Richardr
. . . Onkyo MB-S1, which has options to compress, but can use just PCM, and just has a CD player built in.

The latter is reviewed in this month's 'Gramophone' magazine [August dated issue], their main problem being the price, which has gone from $550 + tax in the states to Ł1,200 listed here. As a result, and because of the CD writer, they recommend the Yamaha.

Make that $399 + tax . . . http://www.crutchfield.com/S-1amA8z...w.asp?i=580MBS1

Yet another rip-off.

Posted by: Tenex

I spoke too soon now I've found it at $298. Interesting product.

Posted by: robert_caldecott

I know a bit about the HARD-1000 as someone very close to me works for Sony UK and has had an internal demo. I really wanted one until I found out that:

1. The sound quality is deliberately poor.
2. You cannot copy existing digital audio onto it (which for me would mean re-ripping about 100 CDs).
3. The "rip" speed is useless - 2x max I believe.
4. The "PC Interface" is simply for CDDB access - no software to allow you to manage the library, etc. Pants.

However, if you aren't too concerned about sound quality and you don't already have a digital music collection, then this may be tempting.

The problem Sony have is that on the one hand their Consumer Products Division WANTS to encourage people to rip their CDs using a variety of Sony toys, but their publishing arm wants to discourage it! Hence you end up with a half-way house device like this.

Personally, I am going to wait - other major manufacturers will follow.

Posted by: Automan

Some reviews claim this thing can record from the PC in the same way as the Sony NETMD (OpenMG software) so I shall take the gamble and have blown my TiVo II budget funds on one.

If it turns up I shall let you know for sure what it accually can do.

Automan.

Posted by: pauljs

quote:
Originally posted by Tenex
A number of the well known hi-fi/etc retailers sem to be bringing out HDD VCRs.

Tivo may have decent competition in a year or two.

Unfortunately they will most likely Just digital VCR's, with analogue tuners and videoplus/pdc.

Posted by: mrtickle

IMHO any so-called "digital" VCR which contains an analogue tuner is (a) a crime against technology, (b) astonishingly short-sighted and (c) should fall foul of the Trade Descriptions Act 1968 and 1972!

Posted by: Automan

I should have taken everyone's advice and saved the money :(

It looks really cool (but does not match anything else I have) and is quiet in operation.

However as reported.

Internal CD drive can only transfer at 2x
Transfer of files from PC is NOT possible but you can edit track names etc on the PC.
It can record direct from it's analogue or optical input
It can control my 400CD CD Changer and it claims auto CDDB any matches. However I would have to leave it all on for 500 hours to do this :(
Software provided "M-crew For HAR-D1000" Ver 2.01E can only be used with XP by following some simple manual install intructions http://www.sony.co.jp/en/Products/h.../har-d1000.html

In many ways it seems to be just like a Sony MD deck but with a hard disk in it.

Unit Limits
Max Recording Time 600hrs
Maximum Albums 500
Maximum Number Of Tracks 20,000
Maximum Number Of Tracks Per Albums 400
Playlists 10

I shall report more when I have transferred some more CD's to it.

Automan.

Posted by: Automan

It's amazing, it has less play features than my old 400 CD player!

It has random play but album by album and no total random option.

Artist Play Mode - No :(
Search for Track, album or artist - Yes but it's case sensitive!
Remote - poor layout and needs two hands for some key sequences
Sound quality - really good
software - installed and operated first time and has yet to crash
cd drive - will read CDR including CD-Text info but won't read CDRW
Artist info - yes if you press the info key twice and then only the 1st 12 characters! If you are really quick and then press scroll it will show the full artist name.
Unit noise - none
software search for track etc. - good but also case sensitive.
Instruction manuals - poor
Unit fluorescant display - clear and informative.
Ripping Speed - 2x far to slow should be at least 12x

I did also try and look inside the unit but could not get the lid completely off. However I did note that the hard disk in a inner metal box (like sky+) so I could not read it's make and model info. Howerver I understand they do you use a FDB hard disk.

I do hoever think it's good point just unweigh it's shortfalls but Sony could have done better...

Automan.

Posted by: Automan

So far so good and my unit is now 17% full - slow job at x2 :(

I see the product is also reviewed in the sept edition of Home Cinema - page 32.

It gets 4 stars for sound and 3 for features and overall.

They also have the wrong product in picture!

Automan.

Posted by: blokedownthepub

How do you rate its sound, both on compressed playback and as a CD player?

Would you buy it again?

Posted by: robert_caldecott

quote:
I should have taken everyone's advice and saved the money

Indeed. Knowing someone on "the inside" stopped me from parting with my cash. In fact there is a HARD-1000 v2 in the pipeline that will offer better PC connectivity by all accounts. Sony also have a US product that is far more feature-laden but they have no plans for a UK release!

Posted by: Automan

quote:
Originally posted by blokedownthepub
How do you rate its sound, both on compressed playback and as a CD player?

Would you buy it again?

The sound is okay and I myself can't really tell any difference from the original.

Would I buy it again?

Maybe :)

If only it could rip CD's quicker.
But so far every thing I have transferred has been 100% successful which is more than I can say for every other MP3 type player/recorder I have tried.

I hope the next model has the following extra features.

1. 12/24x CD Ripping
2. Optical output witch SCMS (just like all Sony MD decks have)
3. Artist Play Mode
4. Unlimited User Created Play Lists
5. All tracks random play
6. Two way remote control with track/artist selection availble direct from remote.
7. CDDB Lookup without having to click on the CDDB Search icon and clicking accept for every CD.

It would then be nearly perfect :)

Automan.

Posted by: panache_blues

Maybe I'm wrong but isn't the TiVo source code available for download from somewhere? Couldn't someone just hack together some code to add a simple music recorder / playback function? Do we have access to the right compilers etc?

Posted by: richkeys

Automan,

I'm strongly considering purchasing on of these HAR-D1000 recorders, knowing what you know now would you recommend one?

Posted by: Automan

quote:
Originally posted by richkeys
Automan,

I'm strongly considering purchasing on of these HAR-D1000 recorders, knowing what you know now would you recommend one?

As I said earlier in this thread, maybe :)

It's now 18% full, thats about 110 CD approx.

All playback so far has been perfect with no extra track gapping e.g. album tracks that have no actual gap between the music play just like the original cd.

At 2x it's a long job loading your collection but it does work 100%

The fact it cannot play all tracks random is a bit of a let down.

I would also suspect that Sony will have a new one out soon.

My unit by the way cost under Ł500.00 with 3yr warranty from www.unbeatable.co.uk

Automan.

Posted by: richkeys

I've seen it at www.techtronics.com for Ł395.00 delivered.

what the hell, where's my debit card?

Posted by: Automan

quote:
Originally posted by richkeys
I've seen it at www.techtronics.com for Ł395.00 delivered.

what the hell, where's my debit card?

Dont forget VAT which makes it Ł464.12 which is more than the Ł456.96 price at unbeatable.

Enjoy your new purchase

Automan.

Posted by: witters

When you say sound quality is good, what are you comparing it to please? Is it comparable, say, to a Ł200 stand alone CD player?

Thanks.

Posted by: Automan

quote:
Originally posted by witters
When you say sound quality is good, what are you comparing it to please? Is it comparable, say, to a Ł200 stand alone CD player?

Thanks.

Most of my audio kit is of pretty good quality and the output of this device (to within the limits of my ears) sounds as good as the original but I imagine others may disagree (like they do with the quality of TiVo's video output).

I note Home Cinema only give it's audio 4 out of 5 stars.
However I think they reduced it's rating as it has no optical output :(

Automan.

Posted by: mrtickle

Maybe the lack of an optical output is deliberate, as that would expose the poor sound quality? (unless it's got a coax one of course)

Posted by: Automan

quote:
Originally posted by mrtickle
Maybe the lack of an optical output is deliberate, as that would expose the poor sound quality? (unless it's got a coax one of course)

It Records using ATRAC3 encoding at 132kbps which I think is a variant on LP2 mode of MiniDisc.

See http://www.minidisc.org/mdlpfaq.html for more info and for some sample files that can be downloaded.

The unit has no coax output either :(

This document is also of interest but is translated from Japanese http://www.minidisc.org/translations/HAR-D1000.htm

Automan.

Posted by: Automan

This looks like it may be okay http://www.superfi.co.uk/index.cfm/...Product_ID/1209 but only has a "serial" connection to your PC!

P.S. My Sony is now 51% full and so far no problems...

Automan.

Posted by: sanderton

I wonder how much it would cost to build one of these things so it worked as you want? I'm thinking a PC in one of those tiny cases with an all-integrated MoBo and a TV out and a 120Gb HD booting into MusicMatch or even Windows Media 9, with the new XP remote-controllable front end?

Posted by: Tenex

The sound card might be a limiting factor - in terms of finding one that comes even close to hi-fi equipment standards - at a reasonable price. That (and the ridiculously expensive XP licence) aside probably not much at all - and it would be upgradable too! :cool:

Posted by: Automan

This device looks of interest.
http://www.yamaha.co.jp/english/pro.../cdrhd1300.html

But
1. No direct hard disk access
2. No software to auto title tracks (except if source CD's have CD-Text)
3. RS232 Link To PC
But Has
1. Fast Rip Speed
2. Choice Of Hard Disk Sizes
3. Looks Cool

Automan.

Posted by: Automan

Yes, Sony have a new one out and yes I've ordered one!

It's the Sony HAR-LH500 - See http://www.avland.co.uk/sony/harlh500/index.htm for details.

Basically it seems to have twice the size hard drive, faster transfer speed (PCM Mode only) and optical in and out.

I have ordered my one from http://www.unbeatable.co.uk who claim to have them in stock for Ł307.99 (search for HARLH500).

More info when it arrives :)

Automan.

Posted by: Automan

Just under Ł300.00 inc delivery from http://www.superfi.co.uk/index.cfm/...Product_ID/1584

No indication of stock however...

Also, I can't find any review of this product :(

Automan.

Posted by: iankb

I notice that you can transfer MP3's to it, but it records in ATRAC3. Does it convert MP3's to ATRAC3, or can it store and playback MP3's?

Ian.

Posted by: KeithW

quote:
Originally posted by Automan
Just under Ł300.00 inc delivery from http://www.superfi.co.uk/index.cfm/...Product_ID/1584
Automan.

Thanks :( you just made me spend another Ł300 the day after I spent Ł760 on the Panasonic DMR-E100. Only Bread and Water for the next month.

Posted by: Automan

I missed my delivery of my new toy :(
Now got to wait another 24hrs :(

Automan.

Posted by: Automan

Yes, it's on the living room floor :)

It's smaller than the HARD1000 and looks pretty cool :)

It can transfer MP3's from your PC via M-Crew but it will then delete the source and you can't get them off the player - beware to only perform this from a backup copy of your MP3's !!!

Default record mode on hard drive is PCM which will store 125 hours of music.

You can set the default mode to ATRAC3 then it can store 1,340 hours of music.

You can also select an album already on the player in PCM to be converted to ATRAC3. Conversion speed is times 2.

More news when I've plugged it in...

Automan.

Posted by: KeithW

Thanks for the pics. Don't yet know when mine will be delivered. What are the basic steps to putting the CDs ( with track names via the web ) on the Unit, and the average time per CD.
Thanks
Keith

Posted by: sanderton

Can't help thinking that is isn't really the way forard, cool gadget as it is. For an MP3 jukebox to be really useful, the set of 1,000s of songs must be available everywhere I play music AND be downloadable to an iPod (when I've saved up fo one :)) I'm not going to redigitise my CDs over and over. Which all suggests to me the PC server/network media player approach is the way to go.

What's the sound quality like on the networked thingies?

Posted by: iankb

I think that storing files in ATRAC3 format is bad news, especially since I couldn't download them to my iPod.

I would also expect to have a music server that could provide interactive selection via a TV screen.

O/T: How on earth could you resist buying an iPod, Stuart? Worth increasing your mortgage for. You can always justify it as a 40GB portable drive for your PC files. There's nothing better than putting it on random and listening to a bit of Jimi Hendrix, followed by a clip from Carmina Burana.

Ian.

Posted by: cyril

I too have been sorely tempted by the iPod.

But since I already had 4 mp3 players before it came out, and now have a Casio M20 and Handspring Treo 600 which both have mp3 playing abilities, it's a bit too hard to justify.
I will buy a few 1gb SD cards instead if they come down in price.

Already fully re-mortgaged!

Posted by: Automan

quote:
Originally posted by KeithW
Thanks for the pics. Don't yet know when mine will be delivered. What are the basic steps to putting the CDs ( with track names via the web ) on the Unit, and the average time per CD.
Thanks
Keith

With the M-Crew running on your PC with the USB linked to the sony it's as follows (assuming your pc is connected to the www).

Once you have configured M-Crew with your gracenote login name proceed as follows.

1. Load cd
2. open record window
3. click on get cd info button on window bottom
4. Accept track match (assuming it's correct)
5. select one of the 999 folders from the right hand menu for the tracks to go.
6. For whole cd drag CD title to the top window of the right window (title window)
7. Select ATRAC or PCM from bottom of hd window (atrac 3 speed, pcm 12 spped).
8. Make sure high speed is selected (between cd and hdd window) and click on record.

Job done.

Each of the 999 folders can hold 400 tracks thus you can put all tracks of a twin cd etc in a single folder. It stores / plays them in the order they are transferred.

Automan.

Posted by: KeithW

Thanks
My one is on its way, should be here Monday, then I can start putting my 400+ CD's on it.

Posted by: misterbleepy

quote:
Originally posted by sanderton
Can't help thinking that is isn't really the way forard, cool gadget as it is. For an MP3 jukebox to be really useful, the set of 1,000s of songs must be available everywhere I play music AND be downloadable to an iPod (when I've saved up fo one :)) I'm not going to redigitise my CDs over and over. Which all suggests to me the PC server/network media player approach is the way to go...

You could just get an iPod and a couple of spare docking stations - they have line out so you could just keep your music on the iPod & drop it in whatever room you want to listen in - as long as it has a stereo in it. That to me is one of the big improvements from the original iPod to the current one - the docking station (and the doubling of disk capacity to 40Gb).

Unfortunately, my (wife's) iPod is now full, and I haven't finished 'doing' our CD collection yet. Must be time to upgrade to a 40Gb one :)

Posted by: Automan

http://www.humvee.co.uk/DCIM/107CANON/NORMAL-MODE.jpg shows the normal user interface with the CD drive in the left panel and the hard drive on the right.

It's pretty easy to use to play or edit track names (or artist names).

An alternate user interface, Easy Mode is also availble http://www.humvee.co.uk/DCIM/107CANON/EASY-MODE.jpg

Automan.

Posted by: iankb

Does ATRAC3 support the concept of normalising the gain on each recording? i.e. Analysing and storing a reversible positive/negative gain on each track without modifying the audio data.

I find that an absolute necessity with MP3 recordings I transfer to my iPod, to avoid having to constantly adjust the volume.

Ian.

Posted by: Automan

quote:
Originally posted by iankb
Does ATRAC3 support the concept of normalising the gain on each recording? i.e. Analysing and storing a reversible positive/negative gain on each track without modifying the audio data.

I find that an absolute necessity with MP3 recordings I transfer to my iPod, to avoid having to constantly adjust the volume.

Ian.

I don't think is does, it leaves them alone which some may prefer as classical music can sound a little odd.

This model has added all tracks random play option. The 1000 did not.
In this mode you are more likely to be effected by the different levels of different CD's.

One last thing I note while its recording in ATRAC3 mode at x3 the source CD time counter rapidly counts in 10/11 second counts followed by the HD time.

I thought at first when I spotted the display it was having trouble reading a CD. But no, it seems to read a bit, process it and then write it to the hard drive.

Also the recording level metres perform a cyclic motion while its recording at high speed - just for fun I assume :)

As my Panasonic DVD player does not match I've ordered the matching Sony one :)

Automan.

Posted by: iankb

quote:
Originally posted by Automan
This model has added all tracks random play option ...
... you are more likely to be effected by the different levels of different CD's.

That was my problem. I normally listen to my complete collection in random mode, because otherwise I would just keep playing the same half-dozen tracks and wouldn't really need the 5GB drive in my iPod.

Nowadays, I use MP3Gain (with ephPod) to normalise my MP3 tracks.

I did have M-Crew to go with my Sony MDS-PC3 MiniDisc Recorder, but I couldn't remember if that normalised or not.

Ian.

Posted by: pahunt

quote:
Originally posted by iankb
Nowadays, I use MP3Gain (with ephPod) to normalise my MP3 tracks.

I had no idea this kind of software existed! I've always put it down as one the annoyances that I'd have to learn with. I've downloaded it and run it through my mp3 collection and it's done a great job. Nice and simple to use and free as well.

Thanks for the inadverent recommendation :D

Posted by: Automan

I've now loaded 97 CD's worth of music.
Time to listen to it :)

Automan.

Posted by: KeithW

Automan
Mines arrived, started putting on my CD's about 400 to go, do you want to do mine for me since you've had the practice ?

Posted by: Automan

quote:
Originally posted by KeithW
Automan
Mines arrived, started putting on my CD's about 400 to go, do you want to do mine for me since you've had the practice ?

No :)

Automan.

Posted by: Fatbloke

Automan, has this device coped with all of those CDs with the copy protection installed on them? I know you can't move the tracks once on the drive but I'd be amazed if it allows you to store tracks from a protected CD yet Sony are the one of the publishers actually putting these CDs out! One rule for one...

Posted by: KeithW

quote:
Originally posted by Fatbloke
Automan, has this device coped with all of those CDs with the copy protection installed on them? I know you can't move the tracks once on the drive but I'd be amazed if it allows you to store tracks from a protected CD yet Sony are the one of the publishers actually putting these CDs out! One rule for one...

I Know I'm not Automan but :
I've had one so far - Aladin Sane 30th Anniversary Edition, which marked as Copy Protected and did not trasfer to the HD. The manual states that certain versions of CP ( that do not stick to standards ) may not play.
Keith

Posted by: KeithW

Aladin Sane update. "Backed Up" CD's with Nero backups works with Sony HD Recorder. ( What is the use of the Copy Protection then ? )

Posted by: Automan

I'm stuck at the moment :(
Some new houses are being built nearby and BT's subcontractor has managed to cut the phone cable feeding the whole neighbourhood!

They say it may take till the weekend to fix!

Thus I'm connected via mobile phone :(

No Tivo updates :(
No DSL :(
No calls :(
No weather updates to my website :(
No CDDB updates so a pause in transferring my CD's - I don't think any of my titles have copy protection BTW.

It's really bad with no phone or www access.

Automan.

Posted by: Automan

BT Maintenance staff have now repaired the cable that BT new works sub contractors managed to cut / damage.

Every phone in my area was dead so I assume BT decided to move it up their priority list for repair.

Automan.

Posted by: Automan

Still loading CD's
So far found I have one CD twice in my collection and another one 3 copies of :(

I'm now feeding them all into an excel spreadsheet to avoid future errors.

Tracks Loaded = 2160
CD's Loaded = 134

My matching Sony DVD player also has arrived.
Went to put it on top of the Audio recorder but it's slightly taller than my old Panasonic and won't fit :(

I will now have to re-arrange everything :(

Automan.