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sky is falling <sarcasm>
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Posted by: fergusond

http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,54358,00.html

Posted by: varocketry

http://www.wired.com/news/business/0,1367,54358,00.html

TiVo Might Rue Arrival of DTV
By Brad King

Print this • E-mail it

2:00 a.m. Aug. 7, 2002 PDT
The VCR has given way to TiVo, but consumers who have shelled out hundreds of dollars for digital video recorders could be out of luck in the near future.

Broadcasters are scheduled to begin delivering digital TV signals in 2006, giving consumers better picture and sound quality in their homes. However, Hollywood is threatening to withhold its movies unless cable companies are given the right to prohibit taping of shows. Since the new signals will deliver perfect copies to the home, the entertainment companies want to protect their content.

Electronics manufacturers believe this is an attempt to hijack their products, putting them at the mercy of movie studios while taking away the rights consumers have come to expect when using their VCRs, according to Michael Petricone, a member of the Home Recording Rights Coalition.

The biggest blow would be for consumers who have already purchased a TiVo or ReplayTV, two of the most popular digital video recorders. The devices can't handle digital signals, making them obsolete when DTV becomes the standard.

The next generation of digital video recorders will be equipped for DTV, and there will be more shows and options for the viewer than ever; but if Hollywood gets its way, consumers won't enjoy the features that TiVo or ReplayTV offer now.

There will be high definition (HDTV) shows that are broadcast with movie theater-quality pictures and sounds. There will be standard television (SDTV) that allows one station to handle five different shows -- particularly nice for sports fans who flip through games. There also will be enhanced television (EDTV) that has better picture quality than standard television plus interactivity.

To receive the full benefits of DTV, consumers have to purchase digital televisions that have several data ports similar to a PC. Digital video recorders, like a DTV-ready ReplayTV that will be available next year, will then attach to the firewire port so information can be quickly shared between the recorder and the television.

"As of today, there is no legal way for (broadcasters) to prevent anyone from copying," said Andy Wolfe, SonicBlue's chief technology office. "Ultimately, we think it would be damaging to the customers if they couldn't time-shift their shows."

If Hollywood gets its way, recording won't be as easy as it is today.

Jack Valenti, the head of the Motion Picture Association of America, has said that without proper security measures, the industry won't allow its movies to be broadcast. The reason: Digital signals create perfect copies that won't degrade. Executives fear they would deliver perfect copies to millions of viewers.

The Federal Communications Commission is considering a proposal that would allow cable companies to turn off the firewire port.

Such a measure would keep people from recording their favorite shows, said Jenny Miller, a spokeswoman with the Consumer Electronics Association, something manufacturers have steadfastly refused to do.

"If you talk to anyone on the manufacturing side, we are trying to work with the studios so that people can get high definition television with their recorders," Miller said. "But it's getting to the point that you can't even take a show you tape over to your friend's house."

Cable companies say they have no intention of ever restricting the port, they just want to be able to show blockbuster movies. That puts them at the mercy of the studios.

Motorola, one of the four companies that make cable set-top boxes, has licensed ReplayTV technology, according to documents filed with the Securities and Exchange Commission. That would allow cable companies to lease their own recorders to anyone who wants DTV with Hollywood's restrictions already built in.

Posted by: phone1

I think by 2006 I'll be ready to upgrade. ;)

Posted by: dgh

quote:
Originally posted by varocketry
Broadcasters are scheduled to begin delivering digital TV signals in 2006, giving consumers better picture and sound quality in their homes.

Eh? What does that mean? DTV broadcasts began in the 90s.

Posted by: Tsar Chasm

Until the studios take DTV seriously, this complete joke of DTV is going to sit by the wayside.

If you build it they will come.

Old timers will remember the insanity the studios tried to pull when the VCR first came out, this is more of the same.

Posted by: buffan

So Mr. Valenti is saying that they're concerned because people will be able to make "perfect" copies of the movies??

What percentage of the American public really cares if they get a "perfect" copy? For the vast majority of the public (although not necessarily the videophiles who frequent avsforum), the quality that I can already record on my Tivo from Directv is more than adequate.

I doubt that the movie industry would give up their earnings from pay-per-view, broadcast networks, and premium channels just to stop the "perfect" recording.

Like the music industry, the movie industry is looking for any way that they can find to stop all recording that they don't directly control.

Regarding DGH's question...seehere for clarification.

Posted by: dgh

quote:
Originally posted by buffan
Regarding DGH's question...seehere for clarification.

Well maybe I was being overly optimistic but I had hoped that a 2002 "news" article wasn't using a date that was pretty well-known to be science fiction by 1999. I was thinking maybe they were referring to something newer/different, but... maybe not...

Posted by: JLWINE

What percentage of congressmen who voted to allow production companies to prohibit all forms of TV recording would be re-elected??

Vote Here:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-v...&threadid=70990

Posted by: feldon23

Or TiVo could just release an integrated DirecTV HDTiVo with OTA HD recording. :)

It could be done for $650-900. No encoder chips necessary.

Posted by: Mr. Funny Pants

(About to be Tivo newbie here, be gentle)

Ok, so what's the bottom line?

We just bought a house and are intending to have DirecTV with the integrated Tivo within a month. Are we going to have a very expensive paper weight in a matter of a couple of years?

Would it not be possible for Tivo to produce a stand alone tuner that would act as a go-between for those with legacy components?

Arrrggghhhh. I want this thing so bad, but I'm going to be really upset if its rendered non-functioning within a few years.

Posted by: dgh

quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Funny Pants
Ok, so what's the bottom line?

FUD

Posted by: cbnCA

Anyone see the TiVo lead article in Wired.com today?
http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,54358,00.html

It suggests that TiVo will be dead after '06, if the Feds go through with their plans for DTV. Seems to me that those of us who use TiVo with satellite services already record and save digital signals just fine, while HDTV is a whole other thing and not covered by the '06 deadlines.

Did Wired get it wrong, or have I misunderstood?

Posted by: dsmdriver

If my TiVo, purchased in late '01, makes it to '06, I'll be one happy camper.

Pretty much, by definition, if your TiVo stops working, so does your TV. That means your current TV also won't work.

What will happen is that someone will come out with a box that recieves HDTV, and downconverts to standard NTSC. Put your TiVo between this and your TV, and now your old TiVo and your old TV work.

However, the quote that Replay TV has a DVR coming out with firewire and is DTV ready is new to me, and suprising.

Posted by: JLWINE

quote:
Originally posted by dgh

FUD

?????

Posted by: Dajad

The fundamental premise of this article is wrong. The content industry & the 5 C group (the hardware group cionsortium working on copy protection measures for digital tv) have both already said that TiVo will NOT be threatened by future copy protection standards.

They don't have any problem with the idea of copying into a secure box for time shifting. So long as TiVo doesn't build technology into the box to allow people to swap that conent, they will be fine. Replay, well that's a different story. But, TiVo will be find in an al l digital world - presuming, of course, they do come out with a high-def TiVo device! :)

...Dale

Posted by: eric_mcgovern

This story just engrages me. Not really for the fact that TiVo's won't work anymore, but the fact that Hollywood just assumes we are all thieving, heartless crooks that steal everything any chace we get. I wouldn't be surprised if next they are going to make sure we can't take pictures of anything with cameras, since we may violate one of their copyrights.

When are they going to wake up to the fact that if they produce content that is good, people will pay to see it? No matter how much effort they put into copy protection, someone will break it. They need to focus their efforts on producing the content, not protecting it.

I have a bad feeling this is all going to come down on the side of Hollywood. If that occurs, I will simply stop watching TV, and/or going to the movies. They are simply luxuries in my life, not neccesities. I am sure I am not alone in this feeling, and hopefully the industry will crumble as a result.

Posted by: VinceA

FUD = Fear Uncertainty Doubt

It's used to frighten people away from something you don't want them to do/use. It's like a competitor saying "I heard that Company A's product is using technology that's going to be outlawed so it best that you don't buy it"

Posted by: Dan203

quote:
Originally posted by dsmdriver
However, the quote that Replay TV has a DVR coming out with firewire and is DTV ready is new to me, and suprising.

The original ReplayTV units had FireWire ports, but they were never used for anything, and were removed from later models to save money. I seriously doubt Replay is going to come full circle unless they have an actual use for the FireWire port this time.

Dan

Posted by: Leon WIlkinson

quote:
Originally posted by Dajad
The fundamental premise of this article is wrong. The content industry & the 5 C group (the hardware group cionsortium working on copy protection measures for digital tv) have both already said that TiVo will NOT be threatened by future copy protection standards.

They don't have any problem with the idea of copying into a secure box for time shifting. So long as TiVo doesn't build technology into the box to allow people to swap that conent, they will be fine. Replay, well that's a different story. But, TiVo will be find in an al l digital world - presuming, of course, they do come out with a high-def TiVo device! :)

...Dale

What are you, some big lawyer for these type of companies or something? ;) :D

Posted by: LostCluster

Unless they also break your TV, your TiVo will be fine.

Think of the Digital TV downconverter as just another cable box. TiVo will write IR control software for any major brand in circulation. That box will have to output in the already TiVo-friendly formats of RF, RCA, or S-Video in order to hook up to your TV anyway...

Posted by: scotty321

Don't worry just yet. Check out this article:

http://www.cato.org/dailys/05-01-02.html

Posted by: shady

quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Funny Pants
Are we going to have a very expensive paper weight in a matter of a couple of years?

I wouldn't worry - "when DTV becomes the standard" is very different from "begin delivering digital TV signals in 2006". Not to mention "scheduled to begin ..."

You have more than a couple of years, and in any case, the date to watch is when they turn off the existing service. i.e. every American has to buy n new TVs.

In the UK, they will be turning off the Analog service "in the near future", however, the government have commited to wait until the set top boxes that would be needed for people to use their existing equipment are afordable to everyone and in this case Tivo would still work, just like a cable box. There is no discussion (that I've heard about) that prohibits the Digital to Analog conversion.

This discussion is based on the SA Tivo. Isn't the Direct Tivo already using a Digital signal?

Posted by: cbnCA

Thanks for all the perspective, people.

I too find it hard to believe that the boneheads on the Beltway could sell out SO far as to sanction any change that makes recording impossible (although perhaps we should all be prepared to write our Congressfolk just in case). In the interim I am glad that the consumer electronics industry is resisting.

But that article confused me on another point, the kinds of "D" TV. From skimming old posts on this Forum it seemed to me there were two layers to this thing, one about "DTV" or just plain digital (400-odd pixels?) and one about "HDTV" which is 1000 pixels (plus or minus a few). Full boat HDTV I figured might not be TiVo compatible without some new device to mediate, but the 4xx pixel, or "plain" DTV, which one poster said is the only thing covered by the '06 rules, I figured should work the same as digital broadcasts on satellite today, so it confused me when they said that TiVo would be dead if '06 went ahead as planned.

That Cato Institute article one of you just linked to was interesting, but they too seem to be ignoring this HD vs. DT distinction which Wired did at least mention.

Jeeze, if even we tekkie-types aren't sure, how is Joe Blow ever gonna figure it out?!

Anyway.. thanks for the additional thoughts!

Posted by: Dajad

Carla, HDTV is just one of the MANY formats that make up DTV. There are higher and lower resolution formats. HDTV, as you surmised, was the highest and S(tandard)DTV is the lowest.

Hollywood seems to be primarily ballywhooing about HDTV. But even SDTV digtial TV has superior picture quality. It is the same quality that you now get through current DVD format (I say current because there are High Def DVD formats in the works)

From the perspective of TiVo, if it could record the lower quality DTV signals it could equally as easily record the HDTV signals. It's primarily a question of hard drive size and proper outputs.

TiVo does not yet have what has been called a HDTiVo in production. It showed a prototype a couple years back. The hard drive size required to make this device makes it quite expensive.

It's my belief that TiVo will start working on a production model of HDTiVo in the next year. I have no basis for stating this categorically, just ny feeling based on almost three years of conversation on this topic in this and other forums.

TiVo will bring out an HDTiVo when it makes commercial sense for them. It is also true that it WILL be able to record HDTV despite the clearly falacious article. It's just a question of when, will it make sense.

And yes, there needs to be a fair compromise on the whole copyright issue and I am certain that one will emerge ... it likely won't be satisfactory for those who believe content is their birthright and that they have the right to copy it and distribute it as they wish. But, for those of use who just want to time shift (ie: what we do with our TiVos every day) and perhaps make a lower quality copy on VHS, that will be permitted, that will be part of the compromise and TiVo will not disappear (well, at least not for that reason) :)

...Dale

Posted by: cbnCA

quote:
Originally posted by Dajad
Carla, HDTV is just one of the MANY formats that make up DTV. There are higher and lower resolution formats. HDTV, But, for those of use who just want to time shift (ie: what we do with our TiVos every day) and perhaps make a lower quality copy on VHS, that will be permitted, that will be part of the compromise and TiVo will not disappear (well, at least not for that reason) :)

...Dale

That's just what I hoped to hear from someone who had a much larger clue than I <grin>. Thanks, Dale! And thanks too for the added "DTV" education.

It's slightly clearer than mud now ;->

Posted by: DBCooper

quote:
Originally posted by dsmdriver
[B]What will happen is that someone will come out with a box that receives HDTV, and downconverts to standard NTSC. Put your TiVo between this and your TV, and now your old TiVo and your old TV work.

Such boxes have existed for years. The RCA DTC100, for example. By 2006 they should be much cheaper as sales volume increases. Don't forget, it's not just TiVos that will need one. Every TV set in that nation that is worth keeping will also need one, including the "HDTV-ready" sets people have shelled out big bucks for.

Posted by: JTAnderson

How much trust can you put in an author who doesn't even know that 2006 is the scheduled date for the end of analog TV broadcasts, not the beginning of digital TV broadcasts?

(Yes, I know that the chance of meeting that 2006 date is slightly worse than that of an ice cube in Hell.)

Posted by: arkham999

The other thing worth mentioning is this only relates to "BROADCAST". Who actually uses broadcast anymore besides HDTV users? My cable company is not going to eliminate 80% of their customers by not showing TV in the standard NTSC format in the next 4 years. There are a lot of TVs with lots of years of use left in them.

Posted by: TivoKid

That's how I feel..... it is a long hot summer NOW and to go TiVo-less just because in 2010 something MIGHT happen it is a crazy suggestion to tell people to not go TiVo NOW!

The tv station where I work just finished building the new tower for the new digital transmitter. They built it wrong and discovered that fact 2/3rds of the way up.... they dismanteled it and then rebuilt it. (700 feet tall.)

THAT is my metaphor for how digital tv is going to progress.... by fits and starts, and leaps and bounds.

Enjoy your TiVo now, though.... it will be quite sometime before old tv is thouroughly gone the way of the horse and buggy.

Posted by: Koan

From today's (Thursday, 8/8/02) Washington Post :

quote:

FCC Votes To Require Digital Tuners on All TV Sets by 2007

By Connie Cass
Associated Press Writer
Thursday, August 8, 2002; 10:49 AM

WASHINGTON (AP) - Dissatisfied with the speed at which the industry is going digital, the Federal Communications Commission voted Thursday to require television manufacturers to have digital tuners on all sets by July 2007.

Commissioners voted 3-1 to require manufacturers to add the tuners to all TV sets with screens of 36 inches and larger by July 2004, while the requirement for smaller sets would be phased in over the following three years.

Congress has mandated that the nation switch to digital TV, which offers clearer pictures and better sound. But the transition to this new technology has been delayed by reluctance within the industry to make the switch before most households can receive digital signals.

"This action will take these electronic appliances from being HDTV (High Definition Television) ready to HDTV reality," said Michael Powell, the commission's chairman.

Powell rejected industry complaints that the action would force consumers to pay more for television sets, saying the price of digital tuners would drop quickly as they are mass produced.

The dissenting vote came from Commissioner Kevin Martin, who noted that most TV viewers no longer receive their signals over the air and therefore do not need digital tuners.

Full article here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy...6-2002Aug8.html

Posted by: Serra

quote:
Originally posted by LostCluster
Unless they also break your TV, your TiVo will be fine.

Think of the Digital TV downconverter as just another cable box. TiVo will write IR control software for any major brand in circulation. That box will have to output in the already TiVo-friendly formats of RF, RCA, or S-Video in order to hook up to your TV anyway...

This is totally silly, again Tivo is just being used because it is expensive. As you say, TV, VCRs even DVD players!!!! Once that the standard changes DVD output will not work because the TV will have to change.

Posted by: Breacagan

The market for HDTV display devices that do not accept NTSC analog video is such a small market for the next n years that virtually all transitional devices will accept both digital and analog video. As a result, there will be few compatibility issues.

Today's DVD players already work fine on today's HDTV monitors.

Posted by: austinsho

More garbage from WIRED, trying to look important in the post dot com bust world.