TiVoCommunity.com
(c)opyright 1995-2005 All rights reserved
indexcheckTC
This area is a static history of posts in the TiVo Community Forum Archive.
This archive history was made for the simple indexing of search sites like Google.



Pages:1


60 Minutes - The Big Lie

(Click here to view the original thread with full colors/images)


Posted by: mschwab

I searched, but didn't see this discussed yet:
On 60 Minutes II last week, I watched a segment called "The Big Lie":
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002...ain520768.shtml

In which they quoted a poll and their own interviews that show that the vast majority of Muslims in the Middle East, from all walks of life:
- truly hate America (no surprise there, unfortunately)
- believe that Osama Bin Ladin is innocent of involvement in the 9/11 attacks
- instead they believe that Israel was behind the attacks
- and they believe that 4,000 Jews who worked at the WTC were pre-warned about the attacks and did not report to work on 9/11!

How did this preposterous set of lies become accepted as common fact in the Muslim world, the segment asked. They say it came from a fake story reported as "news" in the arabic press, and just stuck. The number 4,000 was supposed to actually be the number of phone calls from concerned families to the Israeli embassy trying to find there loved ones from the WTC.

I was disappointed that 60 Minutes didn't present the truth of the matter, i.e. how many Jews worked in the WTC, and how many were killed there? It would have been a powerful rebuttal if, for example, they could have said "No, there were 300 Jews killed, and here is the list of their names". I've emailed this question to 60 Minutes, but I haven't heard anything back yet.

So, I tried some research of my own, but I couldn't come up with a list of WTC dead broken down by religion. There were many conspiracy theories, and numbers ranging from 4,000 Israelis/Jews that were missing, to Bush's claim that there were 140 or so Israelis/Jews killed, to another claim that only one Israeli was killed, and counts of Jewish sounding names that went into the few hundreds. Does anybody know how to find out the truth? Or, as the Muslim beliefs indicate, is truth too subject to distortion and lies in our "information age"?

---

But the bigger discussion this all leads to is what else do Muslims believe about America, and what can we do about it (if anything). What is causing the mind-set that generates the evil of terrorism.

If they whole-heartedly believe all the lies above, then they must also believe that our invasion of Afghanistan was completely unwarranted and unjustified. I think they still believe that the U.S. carpet-bombed Afghanistan back into the Stone Age, and then installed our own puppet regime (the Karsi government), which we are still supporting.

How much more will they hate us if we next unilaterally attack Iraq? As much as many Muslim neighbors fear Saddam, they hate the U.S. more, and will surely see this as another unwarranted attack on Muslims. Regardless of the protests to the contrary here, the Muslims will be certain we are going in just to claim Iraqi oil reserves for ourselves!


Posted by: Southpaw

How did such lies become commonplace? Well, the poor quality of the intellect of the people in question immediately springs to mind. That area isn't known as a hotbed of intelligence, or anything BESIDES being a harbor for people who are only good at three things = violence, idiocy and lies.

And all I can say is this: As much as they hate Americans? It isn't HALF as much as I hate them. In fact, it's not a fraction as much. As I said, last year's events proved to me, sadly enough, that my capacity for pure hatred is boundless.

Yes, 9/11 has brought my bitterness and hatred right back up to the surface. Thanks for noticing.


Posted by: AndyK

The poor illiterates of the world want to believe that there's someone responsible for their plight. It couldn't possibly be one of their "people" so, it must be the Jews!:rolleyes: There's a rapidly growing belief in Europe and even over here that the holocaust never happened. It was just propaganda by the Jews to get sympathy :rolleyes: :confused: :rolleyes: . Poverty, religion and political ambition are a dangerous mix!!!

What I want to know is, when is it going to be some other groups turn to be the worlds scapegoats? We've been "it" an awful long time.


Posted by: mitchrc

I spent the day with the near psychotic leftists that I work with (in Hollywood) being told all day long that this is all our fault.

"All we need to do is understand them."

Someone please tell me when "understanding" has solved a conflict? The Israilis and Palestinians, Indians and Pakistanis, Greeks and Turks, Poles and Russians, British and Irish all understand each other perfectly and that understanding has led to hatred that has lasted for hundreds of years. Understanding without agreement leads to more intense conflict because both sides know what the otherside is thinking.


Posted by: pjenkins

quote:
What is causing the mind-set that generates the evil of terrorism.

Here are two problems that I see w.r.t. the Middle East.

1) An easily manipulated populace that is poor, uneducated, and indoctrinated into the cult-like Islamic offshoots that exist there from an early age

and

2) Leadership that isn't. There are not progressive Islamic regimes in the region in any power capacity, and the powers that are in existence either loathe the US or, in the best case, tolerate us because of our wealth and ability to help them out.

If the US wasn't around to hate, those people would continue their historical battles among themselves. Throw Israel into it, and you give them another rally point. Mix in the Islamic religion, which by its very nature is short-sighted, intolerant, and easy to manipulate, and you have what we have today over there.

Solutions? Got me. The 'correct' answer I suppose is that we have to work on our foreign policy and reach out to the people in the region from an early age, in our actions, propaganda, news, etc. That will take a generation or more, and what happens in the interim? The 'short' answer, as bad as it sounds, but since its 9/11 and I have these feelings again, is to let loose one massive nuclear strike against all the power centers in the area, taking out all the regimes in the area at once, all the major power structures, technical capabilities and facilities that exist, and basically bomb them back 100 years. Then work on the re-education and re-building process. Worked for us in Germany and Japan....


Posted by: mschwab

Wew! I obviously picked the wrong day to ask these questions!

But the responses here have opened my eyes (as ybrew says). I thought Bush was just a out-of-control warmonger, but I see now that he's just doing what the American people want. In fact, he now looks like a moderate compared to those who want to nuke 'em all!

I have no quarrel with taking the war to known terrorists - their wrong-thinking has taken them irretrievably over the line into evil. But it is also a long-standing factor in wartime to use psychology and propaganda as tools in your defense. Doesn't it make sense to use all the tools we have available to try to reduce the ranks of volunteers for terrorism, instead of adding to the fuel that feeds these organizations?

What bothers me the most is that Bush, and you other warmongers, do not accept even one iota of responsibility for the way America is perceived across the world. You claim that they just hate us because of our freedoms and way of life, or that we're convenient scapegoats. No mention that those repressive regimes you want to nuke were almost all put in place by the U.S., or are/were able to stay in power solely because of U.S. support. This includes Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, the Shaw of Iran, the Taliban, and, yes, even Saddam. We supported him during his fight with Iran, even giving him weapons. The U.S. helps keep the people repressed, and we wonder why they hate us?

Mix in these truths, and the times we accidentally bomb wedding parties and such, with the lies that become more believeable in the context of what the U.S. has actually done in the past, and continues to do, and we have a situation that causes millions to actively and passionately hate us! Now maybe we don't really care how those people feel, but it is breeding millions more potential terrorists that want to kill us, and that should cause us to be very afraid!

BTW, those who claim it's only their ignorance and stupidity should read the article more closely. The intellectuals and educated professionals among the Muslims believe all these lies as well.


Posted by: pjenkins

Why do you assume that we don't take any responsibility for our perception or our past actions? We aren't always right and haven't always done the right thing. I can admit that, and most others can as well.

I can also see where that is irrelevant to the situation at hand now. And now and the future is where I prefer to focus. As I said above, the 'best' approach is to change the mindset over in that region. It will take a long time to do so, and many changes in our foreign policy and actions. What happens in the interim and can we survive that interim? That was the other solution I brought up. A nasty solution for sure, but one that may be our best hope for long-term survival and best hope for world peace (you have to break a few eggs to make an omellet, so to speak..)

That said, I think Bush and company are probably taking the course of action that is in the best interest of our country at this time, while also trying to allow the US and people of that region to emerge from this with hope. While we may have helped the regimes there come to power, keeping them in power is not in our best interest at this time, nor is it in the future. What the US SHOULD have done, is attempted to install democratic, free governments patterned after the way the US was founded. We screwed that up and now we face what we face.

So be it.


Posted by: daperlman

quote:
Originally posted by mschwab


BTW, those who claim it's only their ignorance and stupidity should read the article more closely. The intellectuals and educated professionals among the Muslims believe all these lies as well.


Yes I noticed the Saudi graduates that were positive that 4,000 Jews didn't show up for work. When asked why would they believe that, they say because Jews are responsible for evil.

So these guys are graduates of the Gov't finest Universities. Let us call this Government sponsored stupidity.


Posted by: rasheed

quote:
Originally posted by daperlman
So these guys are graduates of the Gov't finest Universities. Let us call this Government sponsored stupidity.


Something related to this point was made on Sunday's 60 Minutes. The US pretty much cancelled all new student visa from Saudi Arabia (and other countries) for the entering class of 2002 (including those that are going to regular universities, not 'flight schools'). The mention was also made that such students who study in the US tend to become more favorable to America after having studied here and here there will be a whole set of students that might have helped in the American sentiments who probably now have even more anti-American sentiments over the visa issue. I agree with that sentiment because I think the political leaders in these countries that are moderate tend to have studied at Western universities. If the US wants to export democracy and other philosophies, foreign students is one of those means.

Related to the religious background of those who perished in 9/11-related events, I also have thought that providing such information might help, but in general the thought has been 'ah, such ridiculous statements that doesn't even deserve attention'. I don't disagree that the statements should be ignored, but maybe someone will determine this information.

Rasheed


Posted by: FlashingTwelve

You could conduct a poll that shows that the vast majority of those in the USA, from all walks of life:
- truly hate Middle Easterners (no surprise there, unfortunately)
- believe that America is innocent of involvement in the 9/11 attacks
- instead they believe that Islam was behind the attacks


Both sides need to be educated about each other. I mean this separately from war, even if there is war then education must take place. If we cant educate/inform the US, how are we to educate/inform those who are potential enemies? (basically, everyone else).

No matter how many times I see it, it is startling to see the hate mongers in the US complaining about the hate mongers somewhere else.


Posted by: bonehead

quote:
Originally posted by FlashingTwelve
- instead they believe that Islam was behind the attacks


As opposed to who? Think maybe the Chicago Bulls were actually the ones behind it?

I wouldn't go so far as to say that "Islam was behind it". But it was certainly a radical subset of the Muslim world.


Posted by: mschwab

Since he was presumeably listing things that Americans believe that are not completely true, I would assume he meant that "Islam the religion" was not behind the attacks, but rather what you said - a radical subset.


quote:
Originally posted by FlashingTwelve
No matter how many times I see it, it is startling to see the hate mongers in the US complaining about the hate mongers somewhere else.

Are you refering to something in this thread particularly, or just making a general statement?


Posted by: Turtleboy

quote:
Originally posted by FlashingTwelve

- believe that America is innocent of involvement in the 9/11 attacks
- instead they believe that Islam was behind the attacks
.


Do you believe that America was guilty of involvement of the 9/11 attacks?


Posted by: mschwab

quote:
Originally posted by Turtleboy
Do you believe that America was guilty of involvement of the 9/11 attacks?


(Speaking for me, not FlashingTwelve)
Guilty of direct involvement? Of course not.

But if we continue to believe (as Bush seems to) that we are completely innocent of creating the regimes that created the hatred that created the terrorists that attacked us, we are just hiding our heads in the sand!


Posted by: Turtleboy

quote:
Originally posted by mschwab


(Speaking for me, not FlashingTwelve)
Guilty of direct involvement? Of course not.

But if we continue to believe (as Bush seems to) that we are completely innocent of creating the regimes that created the hatred that created the terrorists that attacked us, we are just hiding our heads in the sand!


Hey, I believe that every single Arab regime is ilegitimate, repressive, evil, and deserves to be overthrown.

But won't that just engender more hatred?


Posted by: FlashingTwelve

quote:
Originally posted by Turtleboy
Do you believe that America was guilty of involvement of the 9/11 attacks?


Come now, TB, you know that I didn't mean that.

It's an shocking thing to say, sure. But like the beautiful woman who dresses up like a tramp and gets raped, she needs to think about why it happened at a depth greater than 'Its because I am beautiful'. You aren't the granny getting gang-raped in the hospital, you are the rich good-looking one walking home in a bad area (note: not you specifically TB;))

The attacks didn't happen because of the simple: you are a freedom loving people, or they are jealous of you being the wealthiest people on the planet. I'm just one of billions of people so far be it for me to guess why, but I'm sure as anything it isn't as simple as the reasons that the administration offers. Getting the nation to have a strong and intellectual debate about that is at least as important as bleaching out the other despots of the world. Unfortunately we (the west) have led ourselves into such a politicised society that it is hard to step away from politics and look at the problem without think about how your chosen political party feels about it.

The answer may well be that Arabs or Muslims are a people of hatred and hate freedom and America's success, but there has been no real debate or possibility for debate on it. I'm like you, if someone asked me anything other than basic questions about Muslim culture I wouldn't know the answer. If you think you know the answers, I'm sure I could shoot some questions your way.

And I post this knowing I shouldn't write long replies because there are some who just choose the least well written, most amibguous sentence, and reply to that but not the rest. The point is: The reasons that the government and media give you for you being attacked are not the real reasons why and you need to ask yourselves as a country why. You are fooling yourselves if you think you already have.


Posted by: johnjohn

quote:
Originally posted by bonehead


As opposed to who? Think maybe the Chicago Bulls were actually the ones behind it?



Is this really so hard to understand? Blame extremism on extremists, not on whatever belief system which the extremists happen to twist to their purpose.

Do we blame Christianity for the horror of the Crusades, or the greedy people who twisted that belief system into a justification to do evil?

How about blaming Christianity for the horrors of Inquisition? Is it the belief system or the people?

The attacks were the responsibility of extremists. Blame extremists. Blame extremism. Don't blame the religion which they twisted. Anyone religion can be twisted by extremists.

I find it quite troubling to read posts from those who express hatred towards all of "them," or think "they" should all be overthrown. Isn't that pretty much exactly what they think about us? Isn't that what we're criticizing as "ignorant?" Aren't we the one's who are supposed to be better? Have American citizens *never* fallen for propaganda? How many Americans believe that George W. Bush received the majority of the vote in Florida?

Is America to blame for the attacks? Again, no! Blame the extremists!


Posted by: pjenkins

quote:
How many Americans believe that George W. Bush received the majority of the vote in Florida?
Have you seen the results of the independant vote counts? If not, look them up and come back and let me know who has fallen for "propaganda" this time around...

On your other point about extremism, you are dead on. All of Islam is not to blame for 9/11, just a portion of it. Whether Islam is a religion more easily twisted by extremists is another topic altogether, my own thoughts are that Islam is where Christianity was a couple of hundred years ago and hasn't had a good 'reformation' so to speak to bring it up to date with the 'real' world (especially in its treatment of women and non-believers)


Posted by: Lord Nimon

I just want to add my two cents to this discussion, since I'm bored at work right now. I'm an American Muslim. That is, I was born in the USA and raised as a Muslim, although I'm not very devout. There is a HUGE difference between "true" Islam and what nutcases like bin Ladin practice. Anyone who knows the Koran could easily cite dozens, if not hundreds, of passages that directly contradict the stuff that bin Ladin and his followers claim. A lot of people, President Bush included, have stated that the terrorists are perverting Islam, making it appear to Westerns something which it isn't. Unfortunately, if you combine that with the vast ignorance in that part of the world, you have the situation we have today.

In my opinion, the terrorists are NOT Muslim. They are not "Islamic fundamentalists". They are not practicing some version of Islam, nor are they some minority of Islam or anything like that. I refuse to consider the terrorists to be Muslim at all.

Think about it: if you say the terrorists are "Muslim extremists", then that means that they are practicing Islam, but they are expanding on some aspects of it. But the ideas of killing large numbers of innocent people and subjugating all women are not part of Islam at all. Someone invented them and then decided to call them part of Islam. I challenge anyone to show me where in the Koran it justifies anything like what happened on 9/11, or how the people in the Mid-East treat their women.


Posted by: mschwab

[Reminiscing]

When I got my MA at Naropa University in the mid '90s, I took a class called "Psychology of Sufism", where I came to appreciate the poetry of Rumi, Kabran's "The Prophet", Sufi dancing, and other aspects of mystical Islam. I had no problem chanting "Allah Achbar" (God is Great) and letting my body move with the spirit in the raucous dance movements at the weekly Sufi dance at Boulder (a Westernized version, I'm sure, just like us New Agers perform the "pale-face" versions of Native American rituals that makes real NAs roll their eyes! :) ). I wonder if they're still Sufi dancing in Boulder after 9/11? I hope so!

There was a movement intertwined with all this, lead by preachers, rabbis, Buddhists and Muslims, to integrate the mystic teachings of all the major religions, and the wisdom of indigenous tribes from all over the world. Once hidden, much of those teachings are coming forth, and it is amazing how much they all have in common. My only hope through all the present turmoil is that groups like these continue to explore our common ground in the search for peace.

One movement that I know is progressing started out of the local Kryon and Crimson Circle groups, and that is called the Tribal Council of Elders (or something like that). It is bringing together leaders of NA tribes, Hawaiian kahunas, and South American tribes as an advisory council to the United Nations.

[/Reminiscing]


Posted by: Bradc314

quote:
Originally posted by Lord Nimon
There is a HUGE difference between "true" Islam and what nutcases like bin Ladin practice. Anyone who knows the Koran could easily cite dozens, if not hundreds, of passages that directly contradict the stuff that bin Ladin and his followers claim. A lot of people, President Bush included, have stated that the terrorists are perverting Islam, making it appear to Westerns something which it isn't. Unfortunately, if you combine that with the vast ignorance in that part of the world, you have the situation we have today.


It is this way in Christianity as well. If some moron(s) kill an abortionist, or creates a website like 'godhates(fill in the blank).com, the a lot of people, included some in this community, lump ALL CHRISTIANS into this mold.

It is wrong, ignorant, and unfortunate. :rolleyes:


Posted by: appelm

quote:
Originally posted by FlashingTwelve
You could conduct a poll that shows that the vast majority of those in the USA, from all walks of life:
- truly hate Middle Easterners (no surprise there, unfortunately)

Wow, do you really think this is true? "the vast majority" of Americans truly hate Middle Easterners?!

While I'm sure there has been a large misdirected increase in overall ill-will toward people of middle eastern descent, I generally believe that our country is not a culture of hate. I think the majority of Americans don't have any feelings one way or the other toward middle eastern people, except maybe a slight disdain for people who are different... but that is a FAR cry from truly hating!!

I think people should be careful when they make comments such as this... We assume most people in the Muslim world hate us but that is a huge exageration. Sure there are a lot of Muslim people that do hate the USA, but I bet its not the majority.. but that's not my point. My point is I don't want them to think that the majority of Americans hate Muslims. That won't get us anywhere and its simply not true.


Posted by: jmoak

I don't hate Middle Easterners.
I hate terrorists and murderers, I don't care where they are from.

Whatever you do, please don't take the word of the us media in what other people in other parts of the world think of Americans.

It's way to easy to find out yourself, here's a site to get you started. Lot's of links to middle eastern papers and news outlets, both free and government controlled, categorized by country.
http://www.wwideweb.com/mideast.htm

There have been way too many times the news in the us media is whipped up for ratings or to get a certain view across.

For info on what they think of us, get the info straight from the camel's mouth, so to speak.

and btw,
check out the forum links in the listed sites. You may have to dig for them, but they are there.

...it'll make your toes curl....


Posted by: jmoak

quote:
Originally posted by mitchrc
I spent the day with the near psychotic leftists that I work with (in Hollywood) being told all day long that this is all our fault.

"All we need to do is understand them."
...


Ahhh, the classic "Battered Wife Syndrome".

"My husband comes home drunk everyday and beats me senseless. What am I doing to make him do that? It must be my fault...."

Next time you hear your co-workers say that, pat their hands, look real concerned and ask them if their therapists' are helping them with their "miss-placed guilt" and that it's a common problem with rich, white Californians who have a hard time with coming to terms with their wealth.

The key is to look real concerned and tilt your head a little to the left( NOT right!) and furrow your brow and speak in low tones.

It'll calm 'em right down.
;)


Posted by: bonehead

quote:
Originally posted by jmoak
and btw,
check out the forum links in the listed sites. You may have to dig for them, but they are there.


I did just that.

Chilling.


Posted by: rasheed

quote:
Originally posted by appelm
Wow, do you really think this is true? "the vast majority" of Americans truly hate Middle Easterners?!

While I'm sure there has been a large misdirected increase in overall ill-will toward people of middle eastern descent, I generally believe that our country is not a culture of hate. I think the majority of Americans don't have any feelings one way or the other toward middle eastern people, except maybe a slight disdain for people who are different... but that is a FAR cry from truly hating!!

My point is I don't want them to think that the majority of Americans hate Muslims. That won't get us anywhere and its simply not true.


I've thought about this a little, but not much because I agree with your point that it 'won't get us anywhere'. I wonder if a reputable US pollster has asked some of these type of a questions (in a non-pointed manner of course to see what 'slight disdain' really means) or if efforts to avoid this type of questioning has been done to prevent additional outcries from overseas in case the results were not great. Or if one is paranoid, that the pollsters won't reveal such results even if already asked.

I know there are a number of Americans out there (including this forum! ;) ) that have tried to learn more about what Islam really teaches instead of letting hate get the best of them, but I really couldn't say that was the majority of opinion in this country.

Rasheed


Posted by: net114

quote:
Originally posted by mschwab
What bothers me the most is that Bush, and you other warmongers, do not accept even one iota of responsibility for the way America is perceived across the world. You claim that they just hate us because of our freedoms and way of life, or that we're convenient scapegoats. No mention that those repressive regimes you want to nuke were almost all put in place by the U.S., or are/were able to stay in power solely because of U.S. support. This includes Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, the Shaw of Iran, the Taliban, and, yes, even Saddam. We supported him during his fight with Iran, even giving him weapons. The U.S. helps keep the people repressed, and we wonder why they hate us?


No, we "war mongers" don't wonder why uneducated people are easily swayed by tyranical leaders. Remember that "little" country called the Soviet Union? Most of the countries you mention were helped by the U.S. starting with Democrat "warmongers" like FDR, Truman, Johnson, and Kennedy. Were they all warmongers? We helped basically the opposite country opposing the side that was backed/funded/directly helped by the Soviet Union. The same one that killed or imprisoned millions of its own citizens from 1917-1991. Its funny you don't mention that Kennedy started Vietnam...Nixon, for all his faults, got us out. You only seem to want to potray the current president as a "warmonger".

quote:
Originally posted by mschwab
Mix in these truths, and the times we accidentally bomb wedding parties and such, with the lies that become more believeable in the context of what the U.S. has actually done in the past, and continues to do, and we have a situation that causes millions to actively and passionately hate us! Now maybe we don't really care how those people feel, but it is breeding millions more potential terrorists that want to kill us, and that should cause us to be very afraid!


Whats breeding more terrorists sir, is tyrannical leaders in poor countries that want POWER. The few control the many. When some of the many stand up or try to fight, the few kill them. Ours is the only country I know of who has a real conscience-- what other power in the history of the world funds, feeds, and helps a country it has been at war with, once the war is over? Whether or not you agree with any cause of ANY war we have been in, that is the truth.

By the way, have you noticed that say, for some 40+ years, those makeshift rafts filled with people who are willing to drown just to reach the shores of Florida? I wonder...WHY would these people want to come to such a bad country that teaches people to hate it? The answer is NOT because we have an embargo that is starving them. The answer is because people all over the world want FREEDOM.

Its funny....all these "intelectual muslims" find it MORE THAN OK to come to the USA to go to our schools, medical schools, etc. But we are such a BAD country...they HATE us! How can this be?!


Posted by: rasheed

quote:
Originally posted by net114
Its funny....all these "intelectual muslims" find it MORE THAN OK to come to the USA to go to our schools, medical schools, etc. But we are such a BAD country...they HATE us! How can this be?!


Of those that come to the US to learn, how many of them hate or dislike the US? I'm sure there are some, but I would expect most admire the US after having been here.

Naturally a perceived problem exists then, those that admire the US don't defend it publically in their home countries, and this issue could be similar to one of the Saudi claims about how US business that have good relations in the area and strong business have remained silent not wanting to defend a business partner.

Rasheed


Posted by: mschwab

Good points, net114 and rasheed, but I apologize for starting off the over-use of the word "warmonger". I was primarily reacting to those who's solution seemed to be "nuke 'em all"!


Posted by: dmdeane

Golly, we bomb civilians from safe altitudes in places as diverse as Serbia and Iraq, finance and arm the Israeli war machine (with our tax dollars) that shoots and bulldozes Palestinian women and children, deliberately destroy the civilian infrastructure of Iraq so they don't have clean water or medical facilities, then blockade them so they can't get medicines or food, killing off hundreds of thousands of children, old people, the infirm, etc., from disease and malnutrition, then put the blame on them for their own sufferings, because they "refuse to overthrow their corrupt regime". Yes, Maddy Albright even insists that all this death and destruction was "worth it".

And then these people have the gall to hate us!

Incredible.

I tell you, these people are truly monsters. Only a monster could suggest that our government's actions have anything to do with why they hate us. They hate us because we are rich and beautiful, and moral and ethical too. And because we have TiVos. They are not like you or me.


Posted by: jmoak

Bless your heart, if I could reach your hand, I would pet it kindly.

I'm doing my best to look real concerned,
my head is carefully, ever so slightly tilted to the left,
my brow is thoughtfully furrowed,
and I'm speaking as softly as I can...

Yes, yes, it'll be ok.
It's all our fault.
Thank you for opening all of our eyes.
We thank you so much.

Make sure you tell your therapist about how you spoke up to set us straight, and don't forget to validate your feelings.




vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2009, Jelsoft Enterprises Limited.
vB Easy Archive Final ©2000 - 2009 - Created by Stefan "Xenon" Kaeser Modified by Adam J. de Jaray